Magic Items = Spells

[Bjarkmundur]

I've got to be frank, I don't like the magic items in 5e. I do however love spells. You've might have seen this opinion in my Potions thread.

This does not apply do wondrous Item. Those are cool.

For me, spells are 5th edition. This centralised hub of magical effects, broken down into lists and divided into levels to determine availability, is in my opinion the coolest thing about 5e.

My group of 3rd level characters has just finished their first adventure, and have roughly 8000gp to spend as a group. They were naturally inclined towards better gear.

To make everything ready for my our next session I started looking for some magic items for them to purchase, and honestly didn't like the selection I was offered.

I did however notice a couple of items that allowed its wielder to cast a spell. This got me wondering, how about giving access to some spell effects through magic items?

How would you price magic items that give access to spells of varius levels?

Do you agree with the 400gp for uncommon and 4000gp for rare pricings of the rulebooks?

I personally feel like the price gap between the two rarities is pretty steep. Shouldn't there be at least one (2200gp) in between them?

What is the equivalent of a +1 magic weapon for a spellcaster?

An item that gives you use of a spell 1/day vs 3/day vs 6/day vs. At-will, How much difference is there in power?

Would you say a cantrip 3/day is equivalent to a 1st Level Spell 1/day? Would you say, an at-will cantrip is equivalent to 1/day 2nd level spell?

[Unoriginal]

For me, spells are 5th edition. This centralised hub of magical effects, broken down into lists and divided into levels to determine availability, is in my opinion the coolest thing about 5e.

...no offense to you, but reading this makes me incredibly sad.



Do you agree with the 400gp for uncommon and 4000gp for rare pricings of the rulebooks?


As average, why not, but the rules for buying magic items from the Xanathar's are much better.



I personally feel like the price gap between the two rarities is pretty steep. Shouldn't there be at least one (2200gp) in between them?


Not really. The rarities are exponentially harder to acquire, a factor 10 between the two is to be expected.

[Bjarkmundur]

Thanks, so we're looking at

Uncommon 100-600gp and
Rare 2000-20.000gp

Now, between items giving access to cantrips to 2nd level spells, with frequency ranging from 1/day to at-will, how would you distribute the price?

In other words, what would the power curve look like?

[Zhorn]

Adventure League had a formula for the cost of magical services:

(10 * [Spell Level]^2 ) + (2 * consumed material cost) + (0.1 * non-consumed material cost)

Maybe tweak that to scale steeper considering spells from magic items are usually multiple use with a recharging factor.

[Bjarkmundur]

Adventure League had a formula for the cost of magical services:

(10 * [Spell Level]^2 ) + (2 * consumed material cost) + (0.1 * non-consumed material cost)

Maybe tweak that to scale steeper considering spells from magic items are usually multiple use with a recharging factor.

Consumed material cost? Non consumed whatchamawhat?
Mind breaking it down for me?

[Bjarkmundur]

This is what I had in mind.
Almost all of the spells will have some minor adjustments to work better as a part of an item.
Some items might up having an adjusted effect, or a combination of effects.

What level requirement and price would you assign to these items?


Weapon
Bless
Bane
Absorb Elements (only one, constant)
Divine Favor
Earth Tremor
Searing Smite
Thunderous Smite
Wrathful Smite
Zephyr Strike

Ranged Weapon
Bless
Bane
Divine Favor
Ensnaring Strike
Hail of Thorns
Ice Knife

Focus
Chromatic Orb (single type)
Color Spray
Burning Hands
Catapult
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds
Entangle
Faerie Fire
Fog Cloud
Grease
Guiding Bolt
Inflict Wounds
Magic Missile
Purify Food and Drink
Ray of Sickness
Snare
Hideous Laughter

Amulet
Animal Friendship
Beast Bond
Charm Person
Cause Fear
Command
Comprehend Languages
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Disguise Self
Identify
Speak with Animals

Armor / Clothing / Boots
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Feather Fall
Heroism
Jump
Longstrider (constant)
Mage Armor (constant)
Protection From Evil or Good (only one, constant)
Shield of Faith

Shield
Arms of Hadar
Color Spray
Sanctuary
Armor of Agathys
Shield
Floating Disk (the shield is the disk)

[Zhorn]

Consumed material cost? Non consumed whatchamawhat?
Mind breaking it down for me?

Right, so it just takes the material with an assigned cost and plugs them into the formula.
Note: this is the formula used for purchasing spell services in AL content. Just suggesting it as a starting point.

Cure Wounds (1st level, no materials)
(10 * [1^2]) + (2 * 0) + (0.1 * 0) = 10 gp

Identify (1st leve, 100 gp pearl and an owl feather, neither component consumed)
The owl feather doesn't have an associated cost, so it is ignored
(10 * [1^2]) + (2 * 0) + (0.1 * 100) = 20 gp

Raise Dead (5th level, 500 gp of diamonds that the spell consumes)
(10 * [5^2]) + (2 * 500) + (0.1 * 0) = 1,250 gp

[Rukelnikov]

Look for "dnd 5e sane magic item prices", its not optimal we made a few changes to it, but its leaps and bounds better than the system in the DMG.


For me, spells are 5th edition. This centralised hub of magical effects, broken down into lists and divided into levels to determine availability, is in my opinion the coolest thing about 5e.

This didn't make me sad, but it made me confused, its the same as it has always been :smallconfused:


Right, so it just takes the material with an assigned cost and plugs them into the formula.
Note: this is the formula used for purchasing spell services in AL content. Just suggesting it as a starting point.

Cure Wounds (1st level, no materials)
(10 * [1^2]) + (2 * 0) + (0.1 * 0) = 10 gp

Identify (1st leve, 100 gp pearl and an owl feather, neither component consumed)
The owl feather doesn't have an associated cost, so it is ignored
(10 * [1^2]) + (2 * 0) + (0.1 * 100) = 20 gp

Raise Dead (5th level, 500 gp of diamonds that the spell consumes)
(10 * [5^2]) + (2 * 500) + (0.1 * 0) = 1,250 gp

Just realised than in AL coming back from the dead costs 10 treasure points (assuming someone from the party can do it)... Well, I can't say I don't like that, death has been a pretty small bump in the road since 3e, this makes it a bit harser.

[Unoriginal]

The magic item prices of that list aren't "sane". It's basically "what if we transposed 3.X magic items' expectations in 5e without acknowledging the differences between the games".

[Ventruenox]

There is a very good chance that making permanent magic items available will unbalance your game. Why not experiment first with consumable magic items - potions and spell scrolls? It will save you the effort of having to keep those items in mind and their frequent use when designing encounters. Other good money sinks in 5e are land, keeps, and transports.

[Bjarkmundur]

This didn't make me sad, but it made me confused, its the same as it has always been :smallconfused:.

I started playing DnD in 4e :)
This is my first time ever playing with spells ^^

And yeah, I know about the balance issue. I'm not to worried. With only 1st Level Spells, no + to hit, max 3 attuned items and usable only 1/day, I think it'll be fine. Consider Bless 1/day vs. A straight up +1 weapon. It's really just dependant on how long the adventuring day will be.

[Rukelnikov]

The magic item prices of that list aren't "sane". It's basically "what if we transposed 3.X magic items' expectations in 5e without acknowledging the differences between the games".

Its still leaps and bounds better than the x10 increments proposed by the DMG

[Bjarkmundur]

I've compiled everything here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jvJs_lcoQfSr9VgLKgdBlSBzvChmMeddJVTT7mcvj90/edit?usp=drivesdk)

I've yet to look over the 5e items and see what I'll decide to keep.

I'll definitely keep the wondrous items.

[moonfly7]

Honestly? What your asking for is literally just wands, wands are items you can cast spells with, which I know you probably know, but I didn't actually know that originally, so I'm just making sure. If you wan't the party to have spell items give them access to a wand seller, and if the wands in the DM's guide aren't enough, make your own, it's what I do in my games.
this link also has good items:
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L8_iTT0tl3rtV4v1nJU

it's mostly 3.5e items changed over but it should help you out.

[moonfly7]

also, aa hundred percent agree about pricing, I've found dropping common to fifty-twenty five gold is best, uncommon a hundred, five hundred for rare, eight hundred for very rare, and one thousand-ten thousand for legendary works ok

[Rukelnikov]

also, aa hundred percent agree about pricing, I've found dropping common to fifty-twenty five gold is best, uncommon a hundred, five hundred for rare, eight hundred for very rare, and one thousand-ten thousand for legendary works ok

800 for very rare? That's cheaper than a regular Full Plate

[Bjarkmundur]

Thanks moonfly!

[KorvinStarmast]

The magic item prices of that list aren't "sane". It's basically "what if we transposed 3.X magic items' expectations in 5e without acknowledging the differences between the games". This.

Its still leaps and bounds better than the x10 increments proposed by the DMG no, it isn't, see the point Unoriginal made.
This isn't a computer game.
This isn't 3.5.

I also like the prices in gold varying; no cookie cutters.

And also: wands are already in the game.

[moonfly7]

Thanks moonfly!

always happy to help! no thanks required, hope any of this solves your problem.

[Rukelnikov]

This.
no, it isn't, see the point Unoriginal made.
This isn't a computer game.
This isn't 3.5.

I also like the prices in gold varying; no cookie cutters.

And also: wands are already in the game.

Prices still vary, and yes its closer to 3.x cause their pricings were far better than 5e ones.

DMG has thing like Winged Boots being cheaper than Wings of Flying

[Unoriginal]

Prices still vary, and yes its closer to 3.x cause their pricings were far better than 5e ones.

3.X prices fits 3.X's magic item model. They are wildly out of place with 5e's magic item model, so no, they aren't better for 5e.



DMG has thing like Winged Boots being cheaper than Wings of Flying

The Wings of Flying might have a shorter duration than the Winged Boots, but the WoF gives a flight speed of 60ft. For the average adventurer, that's twice as fast as the Winged Boots.

[Rukelnikov]

3.X prices fits 3.X's magic item model. They are wildly out of place with 5e's magic item model, so no, they aren't better for 5e.

I dont see how 5e's model fits 5e better. Gating items behind character levels instead of gold (which is how the rest of the economy works in game) is much more computer gamey than anything 3e. I guess in 5e the wealthy nobles can't buy carpets of flying because they are not 11th lvl :smallconfused:


The Wings of Flying might have a shorter duration than the Winged Boots, but the WoF gives a flight speed of 60ft. For the average adventurer, that's twice as fast as the Winged Boots.

They are faster, but they are much more unreliable, if I use my wings to scout/cross this chasm/avoid climbing something/etc, and there's no fight for 1 hour after that, chances are I won't be able to use them in a fight. Heck, even if do use them in a fight, and the next fight happens more than an hour later, there's a good chance I won't be able to use in the next fight. With the boots you can pretty much fly anytime you want without worrying about them being available during combat.

If you want more silly examples from the DMG, Adamantine Plate is cheaper than regular plate. (Uncommon 100-500 vs 1500)

[Unoriginal]

Adamantine Plate requires a regular plate armor on top of the adamantine.

[Bjarkmundur]

I found a solution that, for me, fixes the availability of magic items.

Magic items can range from 600 to 1000gp, but all need a rare, mystical or fantastical ingredient.

So now, no matter how rich my group gets, I only have to take note of how many "magic item materials" I grant them over the course of the adventure.

This also allows them to choose their item. It's like a magic item coupon xD

This allows the natural progression of spending money on consumables during the lower Level, and then magic items around level 3-5.

[Rukelnikov]

Adamantine Plate requires a regular plate armor on top of the adamantine.

DMG lists uncommon items in the 100-500 gp price range, it says nothing about having to pay for the "base" armor.

[Zhorn]

DMG lists uncommon items in the 100-500 gp price range, it says nothing about having to pay for the "base" armor.

That is a fair point to bring up, and by looking at things in isolation you are 100% on target.

As a DM however, I would favour siding with Unoriginal though as it feels like a ruling that fits the pricing of the mundane items more.

Adamantine arrmor can be medium (but not hide) or heavy armor.
Medium:

Chain shirt, 50 gp
Scale mail, 50 gp
Breastplate, 400 gp
Half plate, 750 gp
Heavy

Ring mail, 30 gp
Chain mail, 75 gp
Splint, 200 gp
Plate, 1,500 gp

Capping Adamantine Armor at a flat 500 gp regardless of armor type would make the price, and possible even existence, of mundane expensive armors absurd.
If the armors cannot be made out of adamatine commonly because of a rarity in skills or materials, then it would make sense that they SHOULD cost more than their mundane counterparts. If not, then the mundane versions should be re-costed to be significantly cheaper than their adamantine version.

or just have the cost being "armor base cost + 500 gp" and call it a day. Raises less silly questions about how things are priced.

[KorvinStarmast]

or just have the cost being "armor base cost + 500 gp" and call it a day. Raises less silly questions about how things are priced. That makes plenty of sense.

The D&D 5e design approach specifically tried to get away from the vending machine mentality of 3.5/WBL/Computer Games. (I put in this much gold and get this out).

And then, of course, for AL they had to come up with a standard price list ... since the normal campaign nuances of a DM regulating how "high magic" or "low magic" his world is gets overwritten by attempts at standardization for public play.

[Unoriginal]

The crafting rules mention that you need to either craft the item alongside making it magical, or that you need the base item and then add the magic.

In the case of the Adamantine Armor, it even precise it's an armor with adamantine incorporated to it.

[Willie the Duck]

I found a solution that, for me, fixes the availability of magic items.

Magic items can range from 600 to 1000gp, but all need a rare, mystical or fantastical ingredient.

So now, no matter how rich my group gets, I only have to take note of how many "magic item materials" I grant them over the course of the adventure.

This also allows them to choose their item. It's like a magic item coupon xD

This allows the natural progression of spending money on consumables during the lower Level, and then magic items around level 3-5.

I don't know quite what to think about this. It keeps magic items down to a prescribed amount, but the players still get to choose what items they get.

This means they can still factor magic item acquisition into their 'builds' if that's what they want to do (I'm not going to call that good or bad, since my impression is that people are about 50/50 split on that, but merely point it out as a consequence of the model). Am I to assume that when you say choose their item, they can choose 'magic greatsword,' and not 'vorpal greatsword' or the like.

I guess my main dislike is thematic-, rather than power-level-, based. Making magic item 'coupons' just reinforces the idea of magic items as fungible items, rather than unique items of legacy possibly found in a crypt of an ancient, long-lost civilization and with creation techniques lost to time. Even when I've had players who started out the gate with highly specific builds like PAM builds or hand-crossbow-specific XBE builds who then later bemoaned how long it might take for them to find an appropriate magic item, everyone has really enthusiastically jumped on adventures where character X has decided that they want a _____ of _____ for their character, so the whole party went on a quest to the Library of Xang, to research great items of yore, started following leads on different fabled items, found out that one in particular was used by historic figure Y some time ago and all talk of it stopped when they died (so where is it now?).

[Bjarkmundur]

I don't know quite what to think about this. It keeps magic items down to a prescribed amount, but the players still get to choose what items they get.

This means they can still factor magic item acquisition into their 'builds' if that's what they want to do (I'm not going to call that good or bad, since my impression is that people are about 50/50 split on that, but merely point it out as a consequence of the model). Am I to assume that when you say choose their item, they can choose 'magic greatsword,' and not 'vorpal greatsword' or the like.

I guess my main dislike is thematic-, rather than power-level-, based. Making magic item 'coupons' just reinforces the idea of magic items as fungible items, rather than unique items of legacy possibly found in a crypt of an ancient, long-lost civilization and with creation techniques lost to time. Even when I've had players who started out the gate with highly specific builds like PAM builds or hand-crossbow-specific XBE builds who then later bemoaned how long it might take for them to find an appropriate magic item, everyone has really enthusiastically jumped on adventures where character X has decided that they want a _____ of _____ for their character, so the whole party went on a quest to the Library of Xang, to research great items of yore, started following leads on different fabled items, found out that one in particular was used by historic figure Y some time ago and all talk of it stopped when they died (so where is it now?).

That's a very different, extremely cool take on magic items! :)

[Zirconia]

I guess my main dislike is thematic-, rather than power-level-, based. Making magic item 'coupons' just reinforces the idea of magic items as fungible items, rather than unique items of legacy possibly found in a crypt of an ancient, long-lost civilization and with creation techniques lost to time.

The other two downsides to allowing PC choice of magic items are;
(1) Choice of magic items opens up the interval between the "power-gamey" and the "sounds cool, whatever" player even more, since the former will choose items that complement their build. Ask me how I know. . . :smallbiggrin:
(2) Choice of magic items puts more focus on what the characters have, rather than what the characters can do with the class/spells/feats/etc. they put together.

Our second D&D 3.0/3.5 campaign, the DM scrapped the entire magic item creation system and put in a home-brewed one after seeing the two problems above in the first campaign. That said, I think it would not be super hard to adjust campaign difficulty for allowing some selection of chosen items once in a while, or trading unwanted items for wanted ones, at a premium, in a large city with some effort. If that fighter really wants to prepare for flying fights without making the mage babysit him with a concentration spell, it wouldn't kill the campaign to let the fighter get some Boots of Flying, or at least a couple of potions.