star wars new republic v.s protoss

[Fan]

Ok since this is my first thread i have to answer the 1 question thats been knawing at me so i choose the new republic no suncrusher or super weapons v.s. the protoss please give me your responses k I'll return after a few things have been posted

[DraPrime]

Protoss. They have dark archongs, regular archons, arbiters, dark templar, and Jim Raynor as an ally. How do they not win?

[LordVader]

The Republic has incredibly huge amounts of ships, and the ability to, quite , manufacture soldiers at an incredibly rapid rate.

I'd call it a draw, as the Republic's overwhelming force smashes against the Protoss's incredible skill.

Eventually, the Republic would probably win through attrition. This is how I put it.

Take the Zerg. Give every Zergling a laser rifle, and make him an armored human. Make every Hydralisk a weapons team. Make every Ultralisk an AT-TE.

Republic will eventually win through the "Zerg principle". Sheer numbers trumps all.

[Fan]

I would have to give thisd fight to the protoss simply because of the sc2 stuff they have mothership and all that jazz although you could say that the new republic is about on the same level if you read the books because the republic has jedi:smallcool: that in the jedi search series a small team of jedi threw about 6 victory class star destroyers across the galaxy

[Nerd-o-rama]

The standard "Star Wars weapons are really freaking unecessarily ridiculously powerful" argument aside...I have to give it to the New Republic based on numbers and infrastructure. We're talking a few star systems and maybe a dozen habitable worlds versus the larger part of a Galaxy.

EDIT: Okay, Motherships? Have you seen a Super Star Destroyer? Honestly, the things are 19 goddamn kilometers long. Even scaling down turbolasers to be about equal in power to photon cannons (the only reason they're as powerful as they are is so they can vaporize asteroids on camera, so I don't feel like pushing it), that's 19 clicks of starship, with a quarter of a million crew.

[LordVader]

I would have to give thisd fight to the protoss simply because of the sc2 stuff they have mothership and all that jazz although you could say that the new republic is about on the same level if you read the books because the republic has jedi:smallcool:

People. Jedi mean nothing. This will be decided by your average trooper, not your shiny commander.

We saw how the Zerg completely pwned the Protoss, right? Picture the Zerg as high-tech, with futuristic weaponry, and there you go. 'Toss have no chance, simply due to overwhelming numbers.

[Fan]

I would agree normally but the fact that zealots have pre cognitive abilites and can dodge lasers and dual wield what amounts to lightsabers and can glass planets and stuff seen in sc2 the alsso have moons covered with collous giant 4legged robots think war of the worlds x3


also the super star destroyers were nearly 2 of a kind and 1 was blown up in return of the jedi!

[DraPrime]

People. Jedi mean nothing. This will be decided by your average trooper, not your shiny commander.

We saw how the Zerg completely pwned the Protoss, right? Picture the Zerg as high-tech, with futuristic weaponry, and there you go. 'Toss have no chance, simply due to overwhelming numbers.

Zerg may have begun winning, but in the end the Protoss won. Besides, even with overwhelming numbers the reavers would just tear apart the new republic's ranks. Throw in the dark templar, and the unbelievable firepower the protoss have the new republic would be destroyed.

[Fan]

I agree with dragonprime that if you see the ending seen of the protoss campaign then you would see that the overmind died and that they were tottaly decimated by 1 templar in a carrier that sacrificed himself to do it
and also the new republic needs to build bases on grouns have you ever seen or heard about a moblie space station in star wars no! the toss can warp units right in with pin point precision and any zealots that die are scooped up with a putty knife to make dragons that can teleport now!

[LordVader]

I agree with dragonprime that if you see the ending seen of the protoss campaign then you would see that the overmind died and that they were tottaly decimated by 1 templar in a carrier that sacrificed himself to do it

And if you've seen the ending of the Zerg campaign in Brood War, Kerrigan annihilates three entire armies. Tell me, which is more impressive? Tassadar was just a speed bump for the Zerg. The Overmind even came back to life.

Also, people, we've established that in a one-one-one the Protoss win. This will not be a one-on-one. This will be a hundred-on-one. GG.

[DraPrime]

And in broodwar they wiped out all the zerg on shakuras. Never underestimate the Protoss. Seriously, they could just send in the dark templar to assassinate a bunch of leaders in the New Republic. They're basically invisible Jedi.

[LordVader]

That leave shimmers in the air.

"Oh look, that looks like a shimmer in the air!"
"Blast it!"

Sheer firepower targeted at the area, including thermal detonators, and grenades, will annihilate them. NR is just too numerous.

Also, they wiped out all the Zerg, with the help of an alien artifact, and then proceeded to get their butts handed to them repeatedly by Kerrigan.

[Fan]

Lol you must have never seen the begging of star craft 2 and also the zerg are after everybody and if evry1 would just get along to whoop the zerg then the zerg die from evry planet the dominate being glassed by toss mega cruisers or getting hosed by combined terran and toss forces

and about that who the HELL BLAST SHIMMERS IN THE AIR YOU TELL ME THAT AND ILL UNDERTSAND!!!!!!!!!:smallfurious: :smallfurious:

[Vhaidara]

Also, LV forgets that stormtroopers are incapable of hitting ANYTHING.

[Fan]

Um bookboy we were talking new republic you know the 1s they train for more then 5 days and i just checked the sc2 website www.starcraft2.com
and they say that they dont shimmer anymore do to that the only reason they shimmered was so the player could see them and they were still friggin hard to see

[DraPrime]

Besideds, in space combat protoss would own without a doubt. Arbiters would freeze everyone, scouts would blow up everyone, and corsairs would just cause huge havoc with their disruption webs.

[LordVader]

Um bookboy we were talking new republic you know the 1s they train for more then 5 days and i just checked the sc2 website www.starcraft2.com
and they say that they dont shimmer anymore do to that the only reason they shimmered was so the player could see them and they were still friggin hard to see

You see the action shot of them killing Marines?

They shimmer.

Also, BB, the "Stormtroopers can't hit anything" is complete crap, we all know that. Stormtroopers are ruthlessly efficient, highly trained soldiers.

And how well do the Protoss do when they lose their shields to EMPs and Ion Cannons, both of which are very common, and then have turbolasers pounding on them/masses of laser rifle fire flying at them?

[Fan]

i also have another thing to say the protoss also have the power to use xelnaga artifacts that destroy planets anybody remember that and when have you ever seen emp in star warz plus that fries the own crap besides ywings which were scarpped to make bwings that lost the ion cannons in favor of more killer lasers

[LordVader]

*sniggers*

You bring in superweapons and it's GG for you, my friend. SW has ridiculous amounts of superweapons. I guarantee there's at least one from the NR era.

Also, I've read of EMPs in at least 1 book, from the Clone Wars era. Also, Ion Cannons are what their name implies, they don't fry their own stuff, and EMPs can be used intelligently to prevent frying the NR's stuff.

And I'm talking about Star Destroyer-scale Ion Cannons, like the one from Episode V. Bye-bye shields, hello superhot laser energy!

[Fan]

Knock Knock anybody home

lordvader doesnt know that i said no super weapons like the suncrusher darksaber and shadowrunner that crap was sent into a black hole :smallamused:

[LordVader]

First of all, please try to type more coherently, like this.

Second of all, I know none of those superweapons are from the NR era, and I daresay I know a great deal more than you about SW in general. The fact is, that temple would be levelled by orbital bombardment before doing anything. Also, SW worlds have protection from orbital attacks, where Protoss ones don't. The NR can just bombard Aiur into oblivion.

[Fan]

I also have another thing i their defensive stance they all have powerful psicoinc abilites all of them it's friggin crazy they read their minds and say oh their going to do this and move out of the way and im not talking zealots the templars can basically read minds from the other side of map and if youve evr played sc1 the psionic location aability on the nexus
I have read only the books at my public library exuse me for my sw error

[LordVader]

Good luck dodging five hundred shots from all different directions, soldier man.

The point is, sure, they can take one clone trooper easy, but what about five or ten or a hundred, or five hundred? What happens when they lose their shields?

[Fan]

okay they lose sheilds by then wouldnt the star detroyers have lost theirs to and i believe that the toss are much more advanced their sheilds are more powerful because I've seen a nexuus full shields take a nuke and live.
(:

[DraPrime]

You underestimate the arbiters. They can make troops invisible, frozen, or teleported. And you're forgetting just how good the protoss airforce it. The republic may have huge guns, but when arbiters are granting each other and the whole fleet invisibility, who are they gonna shoot at?

[LordVader]

okay they lose sheilds by then wouldnt the star detroyers have lost theirs two and i believe that the toss are much more advancedtheir sheilds are more powerful because ive seen a nexuus full shields take a nuke and live

First of all, never, ever base these discussions on gameplay.

Second. It is possible for any reasonably comptent officer to deploy an EMP in such a way to avoid his own troops. This isn't Starcraft gameplay, you know.

@Dragonprime

What I believe would happen is that the Republic would indeed take massive losses, but by using Ion Cannons to neutralize Arbiter abilities and then destroy them, would eventually prevail due to sheer numbers.
And you know, SW has ways to beat cloaking.

[Fan]

I have clearly less knowledge about starwars then lordvader but im not sure that they would attack a semingly lone ship with their full fleet they would send recon to check it out templars brainwash them and make them tell them they come in peace and glass the planet with invisble cruisers bye bye coursant :smallbiggrin:

[LordVader]

Of course, the planetary shields and massive planetary defenses might prove somewhat of an impediment.


Meanwhile, the Republic fleet is raining down death and destruction on the unshielded planet of Aiur.

[DraPrime]

Also, with some dark archons the protoss could simply start causing mass chaos, and using the New Republic's own resources. Imagine the protoss reinforced with obedient New Republic troops fighting on their side. And no way could the ion cannons take out arbiters. You know why? Corsairs have disruption webs that would take out the cannons. And attacking Aiur would be pointless. The zerg own it now. Unless the NR wants to piss of the swarm.

[LordVader]

I just realized this is the New Republic we're talking about, not the Old Republic. D'oh!

In that case, the Toss are royally screwed. The NR has ways to detect cloaked vessels, Carriers are so huge you can hit them while cloaked anyways, Ion Cannons mounted on starships take out the Arbiters, snubfighters swarm the Corsairs, and massive amounts of bombers take out the Carriers.

Also, no offense, but 1 MCd NR trooper won't live for more than three seconds after changing sides. And the DA immediately eats concussion missile anyways, so you traded an Archon for a grunt. Good job.:smalltongue:

[Fan]

okay first of all they dont know where the heck aiur is second of all aiur is still largely populated by zerg so they get jumped by zerg and say wtf is that and get eaten then you just threw in zerg v.s new republicv.s protoss congratmatlaions

[LordVader]

Sorry, I thought we were assuming it was Protoss prior to meeting the Zerg, as is usually the case. If we're assuming 'Toss after SC:BW, then substitute "Shakuras" for "Aiur".

In that case, they're even more screwed. They have less resources, no more Dragoons, nothing. They just lost their last big fleet to the Zerg, and are scattered everywhere incohesively.

And if they don't know where Aiur/Shakuras is, how do the 'Toss know where Coruscant is?

Also, "congratmatlions?":smallconfused:

[DraPrime]

Vader, you put too much faith in NR weapons. They are nowhere near as powerful as you claim them to be.

[LordVader]

What do you mean?

I'm simply saying that Ion Cannons will drop Protoss shields, at which point they are taking damage, actual, physical, damage, same as their opponents.

The main reason I claim NR wins is, again, sheer numbers. One shieldless Carrier versus three Mon Cal Cruisers is in trouble.

[DraPrime]

You keep thinking that somehow that protoss shields aren't worth crap. On a regular ground battle protoss win no problem. Get one good headshot on a NR trooper and he's dead. Get a headshot on a protoss and all you do is piss them off. Dark templars will be able to decimate infantry, and reavers will annihilate vehicles. Ion cannons will not immediately destroy protoss shields. Besides, I ask you again, how will ion cannons fire when they're disabled by disruption webs? All the fighters sent out will be stopped by arbiters, and then the attack is unleashed. The moment the ion cannons unfreeze the corsairs just get em again. The protoss carriers keep on fighting, and when boarding parties are sent out by the protoss then the NR is screwed. As I pointed out above protoss ground forces are much tougher than NR ones.

[Fan]

I thought the entier point was being the fact that the toss made first contact now me being the one who made the thread i think im right
oh and the congratamalations is a in joke your not:smallcool: enough
to know and you also are saying to the fact that clones were disbanded except for the 501st shortly after the clone wars

[Fan]

i also must agree with dragon prime again and what about stalkers the new teleporting dragoons that have anti air and anti ground and the cololouous the toss have moons covered with them

[LordVader]

I am not including the shields because they are a nonfactor after the first few battles, as the NR will simply bring EMP tech to every battle, thus knocking out shields and making it far easier to kill the Protoss infantry.

Reavers will die quite handily to B-Wings and K-Wings.

Arbiters will be EMPd to knock out their energy supplies, and then taken out by long-range bombardment before moving in to engage the Protoss ships.
Corsairs will be snagged by tractor beams and then pounded to dust.
Dark Templars will cause chaos and kill many before being decimated by AoE weapons such as Thermal Detonators and mini-Proton Torpedoes.


As I've pointed out, the Protoss ground forces will be outnumbered by powers of ten against the NR. It's the Zerg principle, except this time the Zerg have high-tech weaponry.

Fine then. What about the NR Floating Artillery? Over 4 times the size of an AT-AT. Bye-bye, Dragoons.

Hello Viper Droids! Shields that are virtually impenetrable to ranged fire! There go the Dragoons and Stalkers!

Also, FF fanboy, you cannot drag SCII units into this as we do not know the background state of the Protoss in SCII as of yet. This is SCI units only.

[Fan]

I will say again they dont have clones:smallfurious: anymore all new recruits and interceptors are manufactured on the carriers evry time a x wing dies a piolt get plugged every time a interceptor dies the just need a bit of ai to plug in and the b wings would be scarmbled by the tremdous ground units known as staklers and collousi edit: there are the templars and archons you are not accounting for plus psionic storm and the dark archons take the artillery over and boom goes a couple platoons and siege units and photon cannons your forgetting about them

[LordVader]

I know they don't have clones! They're recruiting from millions of worlds!

Also, you can't use SCII units, as we don't know the state of the Protoss in SCII yet.

Also, the X-Wing has far more destructive potential then the interceptor, and the new standard snubfighter, the E-Wing, has even more. Proton torpedoes wreak havoc on capital ships.

Even if they do have colossi, a flight of K-Wings loaded with Concussion Missiles should prove inconveniencing to the Colossi. Especially once their shields go down.

[DraPrime]

They're recruiting millions of low grade easy to kill troops, versus the still large number of extreme elite troops that the Protoss have. Don't forget, the protoss can reinforce themselves with droids, while the NR doesn't do that.

[Fan]

ok for the scII units i have in game footage to back me up and the fact that it still takes the nr months to set up ground base wheras the toss just warp them in and wtf are you getting millions of worlds even if there galaxy is the impossibly large how many are habbitable huh what about abandoned planets like hoth and the fact that the kessel system is filled with black holes and the toss can just warp to corusant instantly whereas the freaking nr have to wait days in hyperspace the toss can do all this instanly and with pin point accruarcy so the nr get there oh crap the toss are already there and the blast them out of the sky the first couple of battles and pre cognitive again:smallsigh:

[LordVader]

Actually, they can and do. They manufactured an entire series of droids to take on the Yuuzhan Vong.

And one hundred NR troopers will kill even 1 shielded Zealot, only using blasters-once those shields go down to EMPs, he's royally screwed.

The NR also has access to artillery, grenade launchers that can launch thermal detonators that will wreak havoc with zealot, sonic weapons, poison gas, etc.

FF fanboy, you do realize "in-game footage" means absolutely crap in a background discussion, which is what this is? SC is not scaled at all, otherwise a Zealot is only 20 times smaller than a Carrier.

And you wanna know how many worlds there are? First of all, you've seen the Senate from Episode III, right? Each of those Senators represents systems containing 2-3 planets at least, usually. Then, you add in all the ones without official representation that still give recruits, and that's a lot of planets. Plus the hundreds that joined the CIS.

[DraPrime]

And the protoss don't have artillery? I think you underestimate the reavers.

[LordVader]

I don't. I think you overestimate them, however- they're a slow target, and flights of bombers such as K-Wings can destroy them from a distance without needing to risk themselves too much.

They wreak huge amounts of havoc, true, but are a very soft target in battlefield terms.

[Setra]

In Star Trek they stand around talking when suddenly they're zealot rushed. [/joke]

[Winterwind]

As much as I love the Protoss, I have to side firmly with LordVader here.

For starters, Star Wars weapons are so ridiculously overpowered it's not even funny. I don't like that, especially since I see no narrative need for that except for appealing to little boys who get impressed by a long string of zeroes, but alas, officially they are. To be more precise, each and every turbo-laser packs a punch comparable to the most powerful hydrogen bombs ever built in reality, many thousand times stronger than the Hiroshima bomb, and likely even more so than tactical nukes. Even assuming Terran nukes are more powerful, and assuming that the in-game representation of a Carrier being destroyed by a single nuke is not representing the Protoss correctly (an assumption I am eager to do), in a one-on-one duel with a Star Destroyer a Carrier would be torn to shreds within seconds, while probably not even being able to do much damage to the Star Destroyer (for a Star Destroyer is well able to survive multiple hits by turbo lasers).

On the ground, Protoss could slaughter any ground troops that oppose them individually; unfortunately, both the 1:10 and 1:100 numbers LordVader stated before were pretty much the most pessimistic estimate possible. The Star Wars universe numbers millions of inhabited worlds. The Protoss would be so badly outnumbered it would make the Zerg seem like a joke.

Arguing via game mechanics would screw the Protoss even more than leaving them out and leads to completely nonsensical results (since it would imply that their fastest fighters have top speeds comparable to ground-based infantry). Leaving them out, on the other hand, would also mean that Dark Archons are most likely not able to possess entire capital ships at once just because they are, technically, one unit.

They can destroy all ground-based enemies on their new chosen homeworld, but only thanks to an ancient artifact they are neither able to transport to another world nor to replicate, so it wouldn't help them elsewhere. Also, that artifact would have been almost destroyed by the Zerg, which means the New Republic would be even more capable of eliminating that threat.

I'll leave backing up all the numbers I just stated to people who are more familiar with Star Wars than I am, like LordVader and Talkkno.

EDIT: Oh, and, millions of worlds is far from impossibly large. The Milky Way has hundreds of millions stars. Granted, so far astronomical observations seem to indicate that habitable worlds are rather rare, but keep in mind that these observations are biased due to the methods involved - they are much less likely to detect habitable systems.

[DraPrime]

K wings would go down fast under fire. And NR artillery isn't slow? In general, almost all heavy artillery isn't very fast moving. And NR artillery will just be frozen by an arbiter, leaving the infantry wide open to an attack.

[Fan]

I have something to say about your in game footage accounts for crap okay the carrier is almost 25 miles long and thats the mini verizon for ground assault and the space verizon can glass planets if you have seen the secene where the toss rips through a terran trans vessel and still hits the friggin planet imagine that hitting a frigging new repblic cruiser blam there goes the ship in a 1hit kill

[LordVader]

The whole point of using concussion missiles is standoff. They don't have to approach the 'Toss lines, they can pour missile-y death into them from a distance, relying on massive numbers of snubfighters to annihilate Scouts and Corsairs with pathetic ease.

Also, I hate to have to bring this up, but a turbolaser has an output equal to a thermonuclear warhead, I believe. That's pretty unrealistic, granted, and I'm not factoring it in, but that alone wins it.

The whole point is, sure, your Goons down two or three K-Wings, but then 40 more replace each one that just went down. Sheer numbers will just hammer the Protoss into oblivion.

Wow, 25 miles long? How did you get that, good sir? It's never been stated, has it? I was under the impression the Carrier was 2 miles, tops.

And you may have noticed that the Terran vessel was not moving out of the way of the beam, where a NR vessel would. And Terran vessels aren't shielded, and that was just a junk hauler, not a combat ship. And your Carrier is taking a pounding from over 200 Mon Cal Cruisers.

Have a nice millenium, pal.
That was an inside joke, and you're not.:smalltongue:

[Fan]

Psssshhhhhh i have to say one thing to sya 200!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wtf i have never seen in any starwars battle aside from the battle of yavin 200 ships even be metioned in the same battle and the 1 hit it with the equivalent of a friggin supernova and what about sabotage the drak templars sabotage sheilds and weapons while anything that isnt protoss is killed the second it reaches the ship and what about the impreial warlords in the core systems with admiral dalla the would kill an undefened coursant

[Fan]

bwhahahahhahahahahaha and you cant touch this

[Winterwind]

I have something to say about your in game footage accounts for crap okay the carrier is almost 25 miles long and thats the mini verizon for ground assault and the space verizon can glass planets if you have seen the secene where the toss rips through a terran trans vessel and still hits the friggin planet imagine that hitting a frigging new repblic cruiser blam there goes the ship in a 1hit killThat is directly contrary to all the games ever indicate. It is never, nowhere implied there are different versions of ships used for planetary and space fights, not to mention several battles actually take place in space. Also, even then the in-game footage would be completely ridiculous. You realise vultures are supposed to be extremely fast hovercraft vehicles and wraiths are space/air superiority fighters, right? Well, both are hardly faster than marines and medics. Also, factories are hardly larger than a couple marines. Research vessels are hardly larger than marines, yet there's an entire mission inside a research vessel, with dozens of marines involved.
Face it, taking gameplay informations into account leads to completely ridiculous results. In all of these discussions, we always limit ourselves to cut-scenes and book material.


Also, I hate to have to bring this up, but a turbolaser has an output equal to a thermonuclear warhead, I believe. That's pretty unrealistic, granted, and I'm not factoring it in, but that alone wins it.never been stated, has it?You're right; I converted the numbers Talkkno gave us back then into megatons TNT myself. They have an output similar to not so much mere thermonuclear warheads, they have an output similar to the heaviest thermonuclear devises ever built, about ten thousand times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb, if I recall the numbers correctly.

[LordVader]

You know why there isn't 200 ships?
Because they couldn't afford the models for the movie. You read the book battles, even the book versions of Episodes IV-VI, they are epic.

Also, I repeat, the planetary shields make it impossible for the Protoss to glass planets, while their fleet takes a massive pounding in return from the truly mighty plantary defense systems.

The fact remains, your mile-long Carrier is getting whaled on by over 200 ships of its size class.

[Winterwind]

The fact remains, your mile-long Carrier is getting whaled on by over 200 ships of its size class.Each of which is better armoured and armed than the Carrier.

[LordVader]

And once they Ion Cannon the Carrier's shields away, that's GG. The hordes of E-and-X-wings will take out Corsairs and Scouts, while B-and-K-wings neutralize Arbiters and the Mon Cals take out Carriers.

[Fan]

I for one think your underestimating and what about disruption webs and sabotage and the fact that there is apperntly air in space in sw so why not bring in a flamethorweer ship star wars is so unrealistic you look at corusant it would take 10000 worlds tottaly devoted to feeding its poplatiojn and dont give me well theres millions of worlds bull crap:smallmad:








:thog: proud supporter of the thog lives again foundation :thog:

[Neftren]

Basically, an Imp Star Deuce is over 2 miles long if I remember correctly. Or is that an SSD? Either way, there are enough Turbolasers, Dual-Turbolasers, Turbolaser Batteries, Ion Cannons, Ion Cannon Batteries plus 6 squadrons of TIE Fighters and Bombers, or if we're talking a long time after the New Republic is formed, TIE Interceptors and TIE Defenders. Even the New Republic has to use some Imperial goods. It's what's been used for the past 30 or 40 something years.

Now from a Republic Standpoint: A Mon Calamari MC80 Converted Civilian Cruiser is enough to take on a Star Destroyer by itself. Not to mention it can carry tons of X-Wings, A-Wings, E-Wings and B-Wings to take an entire planet and turn it to slag. It is noted that four Star Destroyers are enough to wipe out an entire planet. A single Imp-Star Deuce is enough to take out a colony, booby trap the place and then leave... Now we add in the extremely tough Corellian Corvettes, Modified Assault Frigates and other various items...

On the ground, the ground forces of the NR span the entire galaxy. Galaxy. From Milky Way to Milky Way. Each colonized system usually has two or three systems colonized as well. Now from visual footage from the movies, the Senate Chamber has well over 1000 hover-car things... a single ambassador, say the Hapes Cluster for example, which includes at least two dozen planets and systems not to mention enough wealth to supply a large army... and then on top of that...

Edit: Planetary Shields, a planet like Coruscant has TWO planetary shields that would have taken two or three months at the minimum to take down even with the fleet that Admiral Ackbar is shown to have in the Rogue Squadron book series. Also, as for Sabotage, well it's kinda obvious what a Protoss looks like... hard to mistake them with say, a Duros.

We have Jedi.

[LordVader]

I for one think your underestimating and what about disruption webs and sabotage and the fact that there is apperntly air in space in sw so why not bring in a flamethorweer ship star wars is so unrealistic you look at corusant it would take 10000 worlds tottaly devoted to feeding its poplatiojn and dont give me well theres millions of worlds bull crap:smallmad:








:thog: proud supporter of the thog lives again foundation :thog:


I've already told you, look at the pictures of the Imperial Senate. Give each of those pods 5-6 inhabited worlds, then add in thousands more for the CIS and thousands more for the fringe worlds. Maybe not millions, I'll grant you, but well into the tens of thousands. You may also note I've provided far more support for my arguments than you.

Also, SW does not have air in space, it's just that it needs to entertain. With the exception of BSG, every Sci-FI movie I've seen has sounds in space combat.

[Fan]

youve also had 3 other people:smallannoyed:

[LordVader]

Actually, if you noticed, it was mainly me supporting SW from the beginning of the thread. Amount of people does not matter, it's merely how well you support your position.

I've already stated how to neutralize Disruption Fields. EMPs drain energy, Tractor Beams hold and then lasers smash, Snubfighters dogfight, etc.

[Neftren]

Basically, an Imp Star Deuce is over 2 miles long if I remember correctly. Or is that an SSD? Either way, there are enough Turbolasers, Dual-Turbolasers, Turbolaser Batteries, Ion Cannons, Ion Cannon Batteries plus 6 squadrons of TIE Fighters and Bombers, or if we're talking a long time after the New Republic is formed, TIE Interceptors and TIE Defenders. Even the New Republic has to use some Imperial goods. It's what's been used for the past 30 or 40 something years.

Now from a Republic Standpoint: A Mon Calamari MC80 Converted Civilian Cruiser is enough to take on a Star Destroyer by itself. Not to mention it can carry tons of X-Wings, A-Wings, E-Wings and B-Wings to take an entire planet and turn it to slag. It is noted that four Star Destroyers are enough to wipe out an entire planet. A single Imp-Star Deuce is enough to take out a colony, booby trap the place and then leave... Now we add in the extremely tough Corellian Corvettes, Modified Assault Frigates and other various items...

On the ground, the ground forces of the NR span the entire galaxy. Galaxy. From Milky Way to Milky Way. Each colonized system usually has two or three systems colonized as well. Now from visual footage from the movies, the Senate Chamber has well over 1000 hover-car things... a single ambassador, say the Hapes Cluster for example, which includes at least two dozen planets and systems not to mention enough wealth to supply a large army... and then on top of that...

Edit: Planetary Shields, a planet like Coruscant has TWO planetary shields that would have taken two or three months at the minimum to take down even with the fleet that Admiral Ackbar is shown to have in the Rogue Squadron book series. Also, as for Sabotage, well it's kinda obvious what a Protoss looks like... hard to mistake them with say, a Duros.

We have Jedi.

Oh I forgot to add in Heavy Turbolasers and Heavy Ion Cannons. Honestly, the Protoss here has no chance. This is nothing like the Covvie vs. 'Toss thread, nor is it like the Battlestar Galactica vs. UNSC thread either. Face it, the New Republic, The Empire, the Old Republic or the CIS all have the capability of turning the entire Protoss Navy/Army and other various planets into slag all by themselves.

Edit again: Yes, there is air in space. No, it is not thick enough to breath in, and the lack of gravity and pressure is the reason why people go around saying "Explosive Decompression!", which doesn't actually happen in space anyway.

[Fan]

I also have to say the tie fighter is proff that thier is air in space due to its sound it makes when its vents exhaust there is no sound in space

[LordVader]

No, it isn't. It's a movie. Would you go to a movie that didn't have any sound effects for space battles?





That's what I thought. Also, it's physically impossible for there to be air in space, you're spouting off nonsense now, no offense.

[Fan]

I give my surrender and my thanks for a fair argrument enpace requiesat
but i still say the toss are way cooler

[LordVader]

Same here. Good debate.

Also, welcome to the Playground!:smallsmile:

Now get in on the Toss vs Covenant thread! Go on, go!

[Albub]

And all the h4xx0rz NR pilots go "kekekekekekeke n00bz!1!!1!one"

[Thrivol]

If it were the Protoss before the Zerg war, they would win. They are simply better trained and better armed. They have plenty of warriors and ships. They can be like "Rush kekekekeke" and overwhelm the New Republic. Besides, the New Republic would probably fragment as the Protoss destroy them.

Now, if it were the Protoss after the Zerg war... the New Republic would win. The Protoss could hurt them badly, but they lost 70% of their race just in killing the first overmind. They lose.

[LordVader]

Nope, Protoss before Zerg war still lose. The NR numbers are simply too big, even for the undamaged Protoss military.

And no, the New Republic would not fragment, in fact, as evidenced by history, a war usually causes the entire country to pull closer together, especially if they were the ones attacked.

The fact remains that the entire Protoss race is equivalent to a few sector defense fleets for the New Republic. They wouldn't even notice the losses. Ground would be harder, but they'd win through overwhelming air superiority.

[Winterwind]

Agreed, FF fanboy. Welcome in the Playground.

Also, we've had a huge discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52666) regarding Star Wars vs. Anything a few months ago. We arrived at the conclusion that due to its vastly overpowered weapons and armour, and its gargantuan numbers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Republic#Astrography), Star Wars beats almost anything.

[LordVader]

Warhammer 40k can defeat Star Wars, in no large part due to Space Marines and Necrons, but really nothing else stands much of a chance. Except for the Culture.
*shudders at sheer brokenness of the Culture*

[Albub]

Good ol' 40k and it's broken fluff. Actually, it balances itself out, but put up against just about anything else, it has the overwhelming numbers, plus the incredible technology, plus the best artists eber. So blatantly amazing that the typo was intentional and I refuse to fix it. Actually, I'll fix it if FF Fanboy starts typing with some degree of proper grammar. Proper punctuation so he remains coherent is a must.

EDIT: My bit at the end seemed really rude at first. Fixed it some, though in retrospect it still looks a bit snarky.

[LordVader]

Without the Necrons and Tyranids, it's an even battle. With the Necrons in particular, well, GG.

[Emperor Tippy]

In a real fight to the death I give it to the Protoss for exactly 1 reason, strategic speed.

Both sides have weapons that are unimaginably powerful (both can base delta zero worlds) and shields that can take those kinds of hits. And the Protoss are willing to slag worlds.

With the Protoss being able to instantaneously travel they win. They warp in a thousand or even ten thousand carriers, glass a world in under a minute, and warp on to the next world.

Glassing worlds that don't agree with them is standard operating procedure for the Protoss and the zerg would never have been a problem if Tassadar had followed orders.


Now on the ground the Protoss decimate (even though they really shouldn't fight ground battles). The weakest Protoss ground unit is a 3 meter tall jedi that is both stronger and faster than a human jedi. And who has shields. The Protoss can flood a battlefield with millions of them in an instant. And move them from world to world almost without pause.

Dark Templar make perfect assassins.

Remember, the Protoss communicate telepathically as well. Meaning instant, uninterceptable communications.

The Protoss can warp whole cities around virtually instantly meani9gn that it is almost impossible to wipe them out. Something like 70% of Auir was evacuated in under a day. Including buildings.

So if the Protoss go all out they can win by virtue of being the ultimate guerrilla force.

In a stand up fight the Protoss would lose badly in space. But only idiots fight a stand up fight and the Protoss aren't idiots.

[LordVader]

Of course, you know, the SW planets have planetary shields and defense systems. So the Protoss ships are stuck blazing away at the shields and taking massive damage in return. That throws a wrench into the "glass and run" strategy.

Also, the Protoss don't have a thousand Carriers.

You state that the Protoss can flood the battlefield with these huge numbers, which is true, they have warp tech, but they don't have those numbers.

[Fan]

Hello I'm back after seeing how incredibly lame the covenant is and this time i have to say the protoss can warp through that it just leaves a gigantic shockwave

I also have to say the toss have motherships and carriers it's not just the carriers and if you take into the account of disruption webs and psionics it all get retarted

[Talkkno]

Guys, dont forget teh New Republic is massively imcomptent, while the Vong were invading, the stupid sentators were still arguning up to the point when Courstant got screwed.

[Winterwind]

Do we have real indication though that the Protoss can warp around truly instantly?
Time being required for setting up a warp connection is actually the fluff explanation why Protoss units have "building" times.

And where have you got this 70% percent of Aiur population including buildings saved number from? The events of the Brood War campaign seem to indicate, rather, that a literally decimated Protoss race barely escapes with hardly any ressources to Shakuras (where, fortunately, the Dark Templar have settlements and ressources of their own).

Also, unlike the Mar Sara and Chau Sara colony, New Republic worlds are equipped with planetary shields, which can take heavy fire. Though they surely would breach rather fast nevertheless if thousands of Carriers appeared at once... but the Protoss would just as likely take losses with every attack. After all, if even ship based Star Wars weapons have such ridiculous power outputs, what will stationary ones do? :smalleek:
And thousands of Carriers is massive. Even though the Protoss consider a fleet of dozens of ships a mere expeditionary force, and hence probably actually do have these numbers, that would still likely constitute most of their ressources.
EDIT: Constitute most of their ressources pre-StarCraft wars, that is.

[LordVader]

Of course, if they warp through, which I doubt they can do with a ship that big, then the SW commanders just pull the shields back, actually smashing them into the Protoss ships in the process and critically damaging them.

Yes, and so were the Protoss leadership in the face of the Zerg, persecuting Tassadar when he was the only one who could save him. We're leaving political leadership out of this, straight-up fighting.

I repeat again, the Protoss don't have thousands of Carriers. Also, the planetary turbolasers are about fifty times as large as shipboard ones.

[Winterwind]

I repeat again, the Protoss don't have thousands of Carriers.I think they might have had. Note both Tassadar's force and that fleet in Shadow of the Xel'Naga are both designated as mere expeditionary forces. After the loss of Aiur and the Brood War that probably has changed, though.
We don't know how much all of the decomissioned ships they are reactivating with StarCraft II will help rebuild their fleets, though.


Also, the planetary turbolasers are about fifty times as large as shipboard ones.FIF-TY times? :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:
Hahahahahaha, awesome. That's Teraton TNT level.
I already thought SW was incredibly overpowered, but this made my day. :smallbiggrin:

[Fan]

I have to disagree in the stacraft novels it tells of the moons covered by the millitary forces of the protoss that are just now getting reactivated because of the destruction of auir and the fact that if you take into the account the scII units i say the protoss win if they defend after failed attack and quickly sabotage world shields by brainwashing they maintianance men that do all the improtant stuff with the dark archons

[LordVader]

They can't sabotage the world shields because they won't get close enough to do so.

And actually, I'm not too impressed by Protoss SCII units. A few Concussion Missiles will work wonders on Stalkers and Colossi. Also, logically, that means you cannot have Reavers, Scouts, Corsairs, etc. So either pick the SCII units or SCI ones, you can't have both.

[Fan]

Ah touche i must say that after doing research on the topic i choose scII
and dont you know that they can warp past sheilds in smaller units as well say an obsever spies on them and evntually finds flaws then a shuttle containing dark templar commandos warps right in to the maintainece area and destroys it and warps out the NR never know what hit them

[LordVader]

Of course, there are multiple generators, and they have the highest levels of security available. And the craft attempting to land onplanet would get annihilated.

[Fan]

I'm sorry but on corusant i have only read of there being 1 or 2 extremly large genrators like with hoth and a shuttle is small enough to go undected with the cloak bounus provided by the a dark archon prior to warp and thus bypass sensors and everything

[Emperor Tippy]

Planetary shields and weapons can be taken down by Dark Templar before the Protoss fleet arrives.

The Protoss ruled half the Milkyway Galaxy for several hundred years. They have moons filled with war robots. Tassadars hundreds of carriers were considered an expeditionary force.

The Protoss should have thousands of carriers. Remember, in SC1 and BW the Protoss didn't ever consider the Zerg a real threat. Auir only fell because of an idiotic commander who couldn't follow orders (Tassadar).

In one of the books it mentions that the Protoss have instantaneous warp travel and that Fleet Beacons are only needed for warping into a Planets atmosphere or with extreme precision (such as to a space colony).


------------
The war goes like this.
Step 1: The Protoss send out cloaked, robotic observers to latch onto any vessels they find and follow them to an inhabited system, where they then report back to the Protoss
Step 2: The Protoss send in a few Dark Tempalrs and observers to examine the planet. They read the peoples minds and learn as much as possible about their enemy.
Step 3: The Dark Templar disable any Planetary Shields or weapons platforms (if the planet even has them, most don't) and assassinates the planetary leaders.
Step 4: Every Protoss Carrier warps in around the planet as one and opens fire. In under a minute (and more like 10 seconds) the world is slag.
Step 5: The Protoss warp to another world and repeat the process.

If an enemy fleet is in the area then either Arbiters stasis field them or the Protoss decided to hit another world instead.

The Protoss can take out hundreds of worlds in a day. By the time the New Republic figures out what is going on they will have lost thousands of worlds, and the Protoss would have hit Strategic targets first.


If the Protoss and NR meet in a space battle the NR will most likely win, even if the Protoss have numerical superiority. But the Protoss pick every battle and never fight unless they know that they can win.


It's the same scenario as when you pit the Empire against most other Sci-Fi forces, SW wins by being ruthless and being faster than the enemy.

[LordVader]

Unless the DT are flying under their own power, they're flying in uncloaked vessels, and thus cannot infiltrate the planet. Thus, the widespread and common shields are indeed operational, and thus the slagging will not be instantaneous.

[Fan]

First of all i have to say that in episode 1 if planetary shields were so common then why doesnt naboo a purely defnisve planet have them hm?

[Fan]

gtg i will continue tommorow peoples this is awsome:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

Pick a nice, out of the way planet, Tatooine for example, and fly in a bunch of Dark Templars. Sneak onto a few vessels and kill the crew, taking them over.

Now you can fly in.

Or a Dark Arcon mind controls a few people and gives them probes as robots. These probes warp in the Dark Templar.

The Protoss pick every battle, they won't attack until they can be assured that the shields and weapons will be down.

[Winterwind]

Don't the Dark Templar have personal ships with cloaking capabilities well capable of decepting even entire fleets of their light brethren according to the books? If memory serves, the Dark Templar in Shadow of the Xel'Naga had one, at least... (I admit I hesitate a bit when referencing the books, for they feel quite a bit like SW Extended Universe books to me - which is equivalent to saying, absolutely anything could happen, since all the writers care is how cool, great and astonishing stuff they can work into the story, nevermind whether it actually fits into the universe, but they are canon, so there)

I must say, Emperor Tippy's argumentation seems sound... since Protoss ships can glass worlds in a matter of short time, the firepower of a large fleet will be sufficient to destroy a planet whose shields are down in no time, and the Protoss can indeed help that happen.
There are only two problems I see - if this is post Brood War, the Protoss do not have nearly as large fleets as they used to have, and their ships will still be torn apart if fired upon. Even if a world could give off only a few shots, given the numbers, I'm afraid I think a Carrier would be completely annihilated by a single hit. Teraton TNT output is just way too much for anything. And if the Protoss lose just one Carrier per destroyed planet, they will run out of Carriers long before the New Republic runs out of worlds.

[Neftren]

First of all i have to say that in episode 1 if planetary shields were so common then why doesnt naboo a purely defnisve planet have them hm?

Planetary Defense Shields... well it's very expensive to show it in a movie. Also, like Alderaan, Naboo is not a military planet. Their military consists of the police force and now, the Gungans.

[Talkkno]

Planetary Defense Shields... well it's very expensive to show it in a movie. Also, like Alderaan, Naboo is not a military planet. Their military consists of the police force and now, the Gungans.

Alderaan had a sheild...
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/DeathStar6.jpg

[Rogue 7]

The Alderaan having a shield argument is one of the weakest I've seen. It's based on slowed-down footage of a movie where the animators didn't really have an idea of how dissected their work was going to be. I see it as an animator making a certain effect, and people reading too much into it. But, then, I think that the strength of Star Wars weapons is overscaled, but meh. They'd still kick the pants off of the protoss. Sheer numbers and the like, as Lord Vader said.

[Arameus]

In a plot-driven fight, the New Republic.

In an actual fight, Protoss, Protoss, Protoss! They're so far more advanced it's unreal; the numbers of the Republic wouldn't mean very much at all unless it was the entire side attacking the entire other side, in which case the 'Toss just tear open a new space-hole and trap them all in nothingness, which kinda sucks if you mass your troops, and barring that, a few Maelstroms would most likely do the job.

Barring an All vs. All occasion, the Protoss still win since they're not nearly an even match unless overwhelmingly outnumbered, which, as I said, is still not necessarily a good thing for the Republic.

[LordVader]

I haven't read the Dark Templar books, so could someone explain why that if the Protoss had entire moons filled with combat robots, they didn't use them against the Zerg?:smallconfused:


As stated by Winterwind, Planetary Defense systems will still claim multiple Carriers during each attack, and DT will not be able to infiltrate in to annihilate the shields.

[Winterwind]

I haven't read the Dark Templar books, so could someone explain why that if the Protoss had entire moons filled with combat robots, they didn't use them against the Zerg?:smallconfused:I don't have these books either, but I imagine it might be something similar to

This:

The colossus is unusual for the fact that it was created purely as a war machine. Most protoss robots are created for industrial or resource-gathering purposes. Even the much-feared reaver is at its core a mobile manufacturing unit re-tasked to the creation of scarab drones for long-range bombardment. The mass slaughter unleashed on the kalathi by roving colossi appalled the protoss.

At the time, the Conclave outlawed the manufacture of colossi, and existing machines were deactivated before being sealed away in distant asteroids and uninhabited moons. Centuries later the war against the zerg has brought forth these engines of destruction to do battle once more.

And this:

Protoss motherships are mighty vessels that were constructed centuries ago during the golden age of protoss expansion. They were intended to act as primary command ships to lead vast armadas of protoss explorers into the darkness of deep space and bring them safely home again. Those days are long gone, and the surviving motherships later became holy shrines to the protoss, representing an honored way of life and a part of the proud history of the protoss race.

At the heart of each mothership is a huge khaydarin crystal infused with an incredible amount of psionic energy. By tapping into this energy, a mothership can warp or crack the very fabric of space and time itself. The devastating power of a mothership can wipe out squadrons of enemy ships in the blink of an eye or lay waste to entire planets. As the golden age reached its apogee, the motherships were left in place as titanic monuments at the farthest reaches of protoss exploration. It was believed that their like would not be needed again.

After the loss of Aiur, however, the motherships were called back into service from the far corners of the galaxy. Now they are crewed not with mystics and historians, but with warriors. The oldest and most powerful weapons of the protoss have been awakened and are prepared to burn the galaxy to avenge the loss of the protoss homeworld.

Basically, seems like these warmachines were decomissioned and the Protoss didn't have time to reactivate them. The break between Brood War and SC2 might have been what they needed to make them ready for combat again.

[Emperor Tippy]

I haven't read the Dark Templar books, so could someone explain why that if the Protoss had entire moons filled with combat robots, they didn't use them against the Zerg?:smallconfused:
Because the Protoss never considered the Zerg more than a minor annoyance. And if Tassadar had done his job the Zerg never would have been more than a minor annoyance. He was supposed to immediately glass any world that Zerg were found on. He stopped and helped the humans, and fought on the ground. And then he lead that disastrous attack on the Cerebrate with the Dark Templar, which told the overmind where Auir was.


As stated by Winterwind, Planetary Defense systems will still claim multiple Carriers during each attack, and DT will not be able to infiltrate in to annihilate the shields.
Stop making stupid, unsupported statements. Planetary defense systems will most likely take out a carrier if they get a hit. But they will have been disabled by Dark Templar first, and attacked by the fleet first. The Protoss will be in orbit around the world for literally only like 30 seconds. Planetary Defense systems will be targeted first and the locations will be known before the Protoss fleet arrives.

Then you have Arbiters who can yoink ships around so that the Turbo Lasers don't actually hit or just Stasis the ship so it can take Turbo Laser hits.

If you claim that Dark Templars can't infiltrate and disable Planetary shields prove this assertion. Dark Templar's are shielded, invisible, mind reading, Jedi assassins. And there are at least a hundred of them for every Jedi.


As for numbers, Protoss are considered young at 300. They have a natural life span of over a thousand years. Even if each Protoss only has 1 child every 10 years (on average) that is, going with an 800 year lifespan as average, 80 children per Protoss per generation. Their numbers may increases slowly but they increase exponentially over the generations. And the Protoss have been around for thousands of years already.

[Winterwind]

I think the Dark Templar might be able to take the shields out, assuming there are not excessively many back-up shield generators - there are thousands of ways to sneak onto a planet's surface, especially since these planets do not have their shields running 24/7. But that will slow down the invasion greatly, possibly giving the New Republic enough time to find Aiur/Shakuras (keep in mind that, while not instantaneous, SW FTL flight is pretty fast nevertheless, and they have access to automated scout drones specifically designed for such a task).
Also, while I think DTs might well be able to sabotage single structures upon a planet, sabotaging every single planet-space gun on the planet seems like a bit too much. Give the New Republic's ground troops some credit. DTs are extremely powerful, but not unstoppable. There might also be some ships around, protecting the respective worlds. All in all, while the Protoss could probably destroy NR worlds, they would sustain losses. Unfortunately, even if these losses are as minimal as one Carrier per ten destroyed worlds, the New Republic will still have lost merely one tenth of its worlds when the Protoss completely run out of fleet, unless you assume their Carriers number far higher than in the thousands, which seems excessive to me.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think the Dark Templar might be able to take the shields out, assuming there are not excessively many back-up shield generators - there are thousands of ways to sneak onto a planet's surface, especially since these planets do not have their shields running 24/7. But that will slow down the invasion greatly, possibly giving the New Republic enough time to find Aiur/Shakuras (keep in mind that, while not instantaneous, SW FTL flight is pretty fast nevertheless, and they have access to automated scout drones specifically designed for such a task).
The Galaxy is huge and there is that whole part of the SW galaxy that they have no idea what's in it. Finding Auir/Shakuras is pure luck. And even once they find it, the Protoss evacuate their whole world. Buildings and all.

Remember, Dark Tempalr are superior to Jedi in infiltration ability and there are hundreds of thousands of Dark Templar, if not millions.

The first shot in the war will be the coordinated assassination of every New republic leader and general. Granted this might not do much as the NR government is impotent and their fleets aren't properly funded.

Oh yes, and then their is the assassination of the Jedi.

The Protoss aren't stupid. Every member of their race is a mind reader more powerful than the best jedi mind readers. Everyone of the Protoss is stronger and faster than any human. Everyone of the Protoss is driven by religious conviction. Every Protoss will gladly die for their brethren.

And if we go post Zerg takeover of Auir it gets even worse for the NR. Especially if the NR is the ones who took over Auir.

Also, while I think DTs might well be able to sabotage single structures upon a planet, sabotaging every single planet-space gun on the planet seems like a bit too much. Give the New Republic's ground troops some credit. DTs are extremely powerful, but not unstoppable.
A hundred jedi are enough to turn a battle in the SWverse. What do you think a hundred Dark Templar will do?


There might also be some ships around, protecting the respective worlds. All in all, while the Protoss could probably destroy NR worlds, they would sustain losses. Unfortunately, even if these losses are as minimal as one Carrier per ten destroyed worlds, the New Republic will still have lost merely one tenth of its worlds when the Protoss completely run out of fleet, unless you assume their Carriers number far higher than in the thousands, which seems excessive to me.

You seem to think that the New Republic will stay together and won't brake out with the infighting.

-----------------
Here's how the war would go, in more detail than before.
-----------------
Step 1: Intelligence Gathering
-Observers are deployed to observe planets and systems. Some hitch rides on enemy vessels and use them to find new systems and planets.
-Dark Templar are deployed on the surface of a bunch of different worlds. They sit around, reading the minds of the people.
-Observers and Dark Templars are deployed to strategically important planets, such as ship yards, food words, etc.

Step 2: Preperation
-Dark Templar are deployed to the previously identified strategically important worlds.
-Dark Templar are deployed to assassinate various people. Senators, planetary governors, military commanders, Jedi, crime bosses, etc.

Step 3: First Strike
-The Dark Templar assassinate their targets.
-The Dark Templar disable the defenses of the strategically important worlds in a pre established order.
-The Protoss fleet arrives in high orbit around the strategically important worlds and glasses them, 1 after the other.

Step 4: Disappearance
-All Protoss forces except a few Dark Templars and Observers retreat.
-----------------

The New Republic has just lost most of its important worlds, most of its leaders and generals, and most of the Jedi. They have no idea who attacked them or why. Everyone starts grabbing for power and massive civil wars break out.

The Protoss sit and wait, letting the New Republic destroy its self. Once it starts to stabilize they repeat their previous actions, taking out the leaders and important worlds.

That is how the Protoss would fight a war agaisnt the New Republic.

-----------------------
The problem with all of these vs. threads is the vast majority of people seem to think that both sides are just going to fight each other in some massive stand up space battle. Fleets vs. Fleets and the like. Most of the forces mentioned in these vs. threads don't fight like that.

Yes, Star Wars weapons are superior to Protoss weapons.
Yes, Star Wars shields are superior to Protoss shields.
Yes, Star War's has a massive numerical advantage.

None of that matters.
-Strategic Speed
-Moral
-Ability and willingness to use extreme measures (glass planets)
-Intelligence Gathering
-Sabotage

Those are what matter.

[LordVader]

Because the Protoss never considered the Zerg more than a minor annoyance. And if Tassadar had done his job the Zerg never would have been more than a minor annoyance. He was supposed to immediately glass any world that Zerg were found on. He stopped and helped the humans, and fought on the ground. And then he lead that disastrous attack on the Cerebrate with the Dark Templar, which told the overmind where Auir was.


Stop making stupid, unsupported statements. Planetary defense systems will most likely take out a carrier if they get a hit. But they will have been disabled by Dark Templar first, and attacked by the fleet first. The Protoss will be in orbit around the world for literally only like 30 seconds. Planetary Defense systems will be targeted first and the locations will be known before the Protoss fleet arrives.

Then you have Arbiters who can yoink ships around so that the Turbo Lasers don't actually hit or just Stasis the ship so it can take Turbo Laser hits.

If you claim that Dark Templars can't infiltrate and disable Planetary shields prove this assertion. Dark Templar's are shielded, invisible, mind reading, Jedi assassins. And there are at least a hundred of them for every Jedi.


As for numbers, Protoss are considered young at 300. They have a natural life span of over a thousand years. Even if each Protoss only has 1 child every 10 years (on average) that is, going with an 800 year lifespan as average, 80 children per Protoss per generation. Their numbers may increases slowly but they increase exponentially over the generations. And the Protoss have been around for thousands of years already.

You have to provide identification when landing on any government-controlled world. Since the DT can't, because they can't talk normally, infiltration will be difficult at best. Thus, infiltration is going to be difficult at best, and when the DT attack the secondary targets, after initial reports of infiltration have spread, they'll be ready with force fields and weapons that can detect cloaked opponents, and AoE weapons such as grenades or sonice weaponry. DT are far from invincible, and there's no way they'd be able to neutralize an entire world's defenses even if they could infiltrate successfully.


Also, DT don't know how to fly NR vessels. So that's right out there. Assuming they learn how to, you still have the problem of them not being able to talk and not being able to provide identification. They'll get vaporized before landing.

[Winterwind]

What about hiding on a regular NR ship (civilian or military), or just flying to the world in a cloaked ship (which do not appear in the game, but which the DT do possess according to the novels), though? Couldn't that work?

[LordVader]

Hiding on a ship might work, but since DT are not truly invisible, it'd be a job to stay hidden and then sneak out through a fully populated starport.

Cloaked ship might also work, but it'd be noticed eventually, as SC ships are not fully invisible. Could probably get on the planet, though.

Basically, they'd probably be able to take out the first few planetary defenses on the first wave of planets, but the rest of the defenses and other planets would then be prepared against infiltration and much harder targets.

[Emperor Tippy]

You have to provide identification when landing on any government-controlled world. Since the DT can't, because they can't talk normally, infiltration will be difficult at best. Thus, infiltration is going to be difficult at best, and when the DT attack the secondary targets, after initial reports of infiltration have spread, they'll be ready with force fields and weapons that can detect cloaked opponents, and AoE weapons such as grenades or sonice weaponry. DT are far from invincible, and there's no way they'd be able to neutralize an entire world's defenses even if they could infiltrate successfully.
The Dark Templar are invisible. They don't need to provide identification if they can't be spotted. And the Protoss can communicate with other people if they are so inclined.

Before you say what a Dark Templar can or can't do ask yourself "Could a Jedi or group of Jedi do it". If the answer is yes than the Dark Templar can do it.


Also, DT don't know how to fly NR vessels. So that's right out there. Assuming they learn how to, you still have the problem of them not being able to talk and not being able to provide identification. They'll get vaporized before landing.
Learning how to fly a vessel is trivial, they can lift the information right out of the NR citizens mind.

As for needing identification at all, please. The Empire had piss poor security on its worlds and the NR has even worse.

[LordVader]

You still have to provide vessel identification, even on fringe worlds. Notice Han Solo saying he'd have to forge a new ID?

And I said the DT would be able to land on-planet, but after taking out the first few defenses, they'd be countered. And if they're moving as a hundred together, they're ridiculously easy to neutralize. Just plop a missile into the middle of the shimmer in the air, all dead.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hiding on a ship might work, but since DT are not truly invisible, it'd be a job to stay hidden and then sneak out through a fully populated starport.
Um no, DT are pretty much truly invisible.

[qutoe]Cloaked ship might also work, but it'd be noticed eventually, as SC ships are not fully invisible. Could probably get on the planet, though.[/quote]
Yes, cloaked SC ships are pretty much truly invisible.


Basically, they'd probably be able to take out the first few planetary defenses on the first wave of planets, but the rest of the defenses and other planets would then be prepared against infiltration and much harder targets.

See, your not thinking this all the way through. From the time the NR realizes that they have a problem to the time the Protoss leave is under an hour. This isn't a drawn out campaign. It is a lighting strike that takes out the entire NR leadership and their most strategically important worlds at once.

The NR then tears its self apart fighting over who gets to be incharge. And once they decided that the Protoss come back and do the whole thing over again.

The New Republic does not have a stable government.

[Winterwind]

Regarding the "Are Dark Templar truly invisible" issue, it depends on how much importance you attribute to the flimmering of the air/space when a cloaked SC unit passes. That's not only a game mechanic, it appears in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdLimPSg2J8) as well.

Other than that, we also have this (QUOTE=http://eu.starcraft2.com/features/protoss/darktemplar.xml) information regarding the Dark Templar.


The dark templar are most renowned for their ability to bend light around their bodies to become invisible at will, and a true master of the Void can achieve much greater feats than this. Armed with their potent warp blades, the dark templar are deadly and relentless foes, capable of crippling conventional forces with their devastating strikes.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh, and don't forget Dark Arcons. They make infiltration even easier. Just take over someone like Han Solo on some out of the way backwater planet and use them to get your Dark Templars onto the worlds.

[LordVader]

The ships would be able to get in because the flimmering is much less noticeable from a distance then in close-up fighting. And this scenario could also lead to the annihilation of both empires, as the NR simply sends its fleets to annhilate the Protoss worlds. Total Armageddon.:smallcool:

[Emperor Tippy]

The ships would be able to get in because the flimmering is much less noticeable from a distance then in close-up fighting. And this scenario could also lead to the annihilation of both empires, as the NR simply sends its fleets to annhilate the Protoss worlds. Total Armageddon.:smallcool:

How did the NR find the Protoss home world? And the Protoss can evacuate their entire population and infrastructure quickly and easily.

You also seem to be operating under the idea that the NR could retaliate. The NR government has already been taken out. Civil war would happen before any attempted retaliation.

[Rogue 7]

How did the NR find the Protoss home world? And the Protoss can evacuate their entire population and infrastructure quickly and easily.

You also seem to be operating under the idea that the NR could retaliate. The NR government has already been taken out. Civil war would happen before any attempted retaliation.

My gods, you're overestimating the Protoss. If they're this 1337, how'd they lose to the Zerg? Invisibility is not the be-all, end-all. Thermal imaging, infrared, even radaresque systems will all detect protoss. So will motion detectors and the like. These are part of every defense. They'll know that there are intruders, and move to counter them, even if they can't see them. Sure, people will die, but the 'toss will not be able to move with impunity. Quite the opposite.

[Emperor Tippy]

My gods, you're overestimating the Protoss. If they're this 1337, how'd they lose to the Zerg?
A commander who couldn't follow orders. Tassadar was a fragging idiot who couldn't do as he was told. That is why the Protoss "lost" to the zerg. And until the Protoss lost Auir they never even considered the Zerg a real threat.


Invisibility is not the be-all, end-all. Thermal imaging, infrared, even radaresque systems will all detect protoss. So will motion detectors and the like. These are part of every defense. They'll know that there are intruders, and move to counter them, even if they can't see them. Sure, people will die, but the 'toss will not be able to move with impunity. Quite the opposite.
Could the Jedi do it? Before you say what the Dark Templar can or can't do ask that question and answer it. Anything that the Jedi can do can easily be done by the Dark Templar.

[Rogue 7]

Could the Jedi do it? Before you say what the Dark Templar can or can't do ask that question and answer it. Anything that the Jedi can do can easily be done by the Dark Templar.

Nope, they couldn't. They couldn't infiltrate everywhere that way. They could do it by posing as civilians, something the 'toss would have a hard time doing if they couldn't speak basic, but they couldn't go invisible and infiltrate a planet like that.

[Fan]

I have something to say quoting sc books isnt cheap as our opponet is using stuff from the extended universe like everything the new republic is is related to extended universe and also isnt lord vader forgetting about the core worlds they are still held by imperial forces are they not?:smallconfused:
So logically with the policy of the enemy of my enemy is my freind wouldnt they join the protoss and the combined forces of the two i from what i know the imperial warlords have 1000's of victory class stardestroyers aas well as a super class

[Emperor Tippy]

So your telling me that the entire Jedi order couldn't assassinate the heads of the New republic or take down the planetary defenses of a single world?

[Fan]

I agree with tippy do to the fact that if you make the entire jedi order make it all permantely invisble and give them invisble weapons thats like their worst member would be like obi-wan kenobi

[Emperor Tippy]

I agree with tippy do to the fact that if you make the entire jedi order make it all permantely invisble and give them invisble weapons thats like their worst member would be like obi-wan kenobi

And increase their numbers to over a hundred thousand and most likely several hundred million. Thats just Dark Templars.

[Fan]

I also have to say they have to actively try to "not" read others minds and have a telpathic language so the can communicate to each other with out anyone knowing

[LordVader]

Also, in response to your question of what a hundred Jedi can do?


They can die to overwhelming numbers. See Episode II.

[Fan]

LoL the nr cant keep making soldiers though and they were droids they are programmed for nothing but war and dont need generals to give orders the dark templar simply brainwash a genral and if you didnt notice the steps the protoss took prior to coming to that world most higher ups would be dead and a confused and unlead millitary is an easily killed one

[LordVader]

Lol, and obviously soldiers are just guys given rifles with no military training.

Emperor Tippy, the Dark Templar cannot leap dozens of meters into midair, throw people through the air with the Force, or block laser shots. Also, in the close quarters of a military HQ, DTs will get slaughtered as all you have to do is point your rifle down the hallway and fire/chuck a grenade, and they're down.

Finally, they have to get inside locked doors with access codes, probably in most cases, to get to the HQ. Granted, it's easier for them to infiltrate than a standard grunt, but it's not quite as easy as you seem to think. Any standard HQ will have infrared systems, base scans, motion sensors, the works. They can't just slip inside and kill with no problem.


Also, FF fanboy, the Protoss can't keep making soldiers either, and the NR can afford a damn sight more losses than the Protoss can.

[Rogue 7]

So your telling me that the entire Jedi order couldn't assassinate the heads of the New republic or take down the planetary defenses of a single world?

Not sure on the assassination of all new republic leaders- there are a lot of them, after all, well-protected and scattered around the galaxy. However, while they could take down the defenses of a single world, what difference would it make to the New Republic? They've got hundreds. The tactic would work a few times before being figured out, then the 'Toss are SOL with that method.

[Emperor Tippy]

Lol, and obviously soldiers are just guys given rifles with no military training.

Emperor Tippy, the Dark Templar cannot leap dozens of meters into midair, throw people through the air with the Force, or block laser shots. Also, in the close quarters of a military HQ, DTs will get slaughtered as all you have to do is point your rifle down the hallway and fire/chuck a grenade, and they're down.
They have those nice things called shields. As for leaping a dozen meters in the air, that is only 4 times their height. They are superhumanly strong and have powered armor. It's not a real stretch to believe that they can jump like a jedi.


Finally, they have to get inside locked doors with access codes, probably in most cases, to get to the HQ. Granted, it's easier for them to infiltrate than a standard grunt, but it's not quite as easy as you seem to think. Any standard HQ will have infrared systems, base scans, motion sensors, the works. They can't just slip inside and kill with no problem.
Access codes? You mean the ones that they grabbed from the minds of the guards? And really, how many starwars bases are shown with anythign approaching those kinds of defenses.


Also, FF fanboy, the Protoss can't keep making soldiers either, and the NR can afford a damn sight more losses than the Protoss can.

Um, actually the Protoss can just make regular grunts. They use a lot of robots.

[LordVader]

I know they have shields, and that makes them better, but they can't block laser shots with their swords. So they are slightly stronger than Jedi, but not by much.

And yes, they can pull the access codes, but don't you think the guard will notice the door spontaneously opening? And if they kill him, boom, there goes the element of suprise.


And I know the Protoss can train soldiers as well, I was responding to FF's remark that the NR can't keep training soldiers. The NR also makes fairly extensive use of combat robots as well.

[Talkkno]

Also, in response to your question of what a hundred Jedi can do?


They can die to overwhelming numbers. See Episode II.
To be fair, they did pretty well consiridng they were outgunned by several orders of mangitude.
Keep in mind in the Clone Wars cartoon both Mace and Yoda took out entire armies by themselves more or less. Granted they are the top dogs of the order but still.
Remember in Thrawn trigonally, Grand Admirial Thrawn showed the weakness of the New Republic leadership, as he effectively kept on there death throes with maybe 25 star destroyers, a couple of smaller ships, and few big rocks, in mostly hit and run tactics and consirding the Protoss are faster then NR ships...

[Rogue 7]

To be fair, they did pretty well consiridng they were outgunned by several orders of mangitude.
Keep in mind in the Clone Wars cartoon both Mace and Yoda took out entire armies by themselves more or less. Granted they are the top dogs of the order but still.
Remember in Thrawn trigonally, Grand Admirial Thrawn showed the weakness of the New Republic leadership, as he effectively kept on there death throes with maybe 25 star destroyers, a couple of smaller ships, and few big rocks, in mostly hit and run tactics and consirding the Protoss are faster then NR ships...

I'm pretty sure the Republic had comparable numbers of star cruisers- they were more spread out, but it's not like Thrawn was outnumbered 20 to one. I'd put it at 2 or 3 to one- at least until he found the Katana fleet and had 180+ Dreadnought-class cruisers added to his fleet, controlled by limitless numbers of clones. The 'Toss can't do that.

[Eita]

You guys overestimate Protoss abilities, and underestimate NR abilities.

[Talkkno]

I'm pretty sure the Republic had comparable numbers of star cruisers- they were more spread out, but it's not like Thrawn was outnumbered 20 to one. I'd put it at 2 or 3 to one- at least until he found the Katana fleet and had 180+ Dreadnought-class cruisers added to his fleet, controlled by limitless numbers of clones. The 'Toss can't do that.

The fact is though, Thrawn did not attack the Courstant with that many ships, the mere fact that he was sucessfull in attacking with so few forces and succeded in nearly crippling the NR, see the battle of Sluvis Van as an example.

[Rogue 7]

I'm not denying that Thrawn wasn't a brilliant strategist. The assault on Coruscant was not designed to destroy them- they launched the asteroids to keep them pinned down. However, it's not like all he had was 2 star destroyers and a squadron of TIEs. He was well-equipped, and knew how to use his resources.

[LordVader]

I'm afraid I have some bad news, Emperor Tippy. The newly-released profile for Carriers on Starcraft 2.com states that the vast majority are armed only with their interceptors. It says there are only a handful of "super-carriers", presumably these have the planet-killers.


So bye-bye "warp in, glass, warp out" strategy.

I have to give this to the New Republic now, as there simply aren't enough supercarriers to kill the NR.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually it just got easier. The Protoss are shown to glass planets. I was assuming that the glassing was distributed among all the ships in the fleet. But that apparently isn't true.

Great, we just increased the power of protoss weapons by a few orders of magnitude.

Well I'm off to eat.

[LordVader]

Powers that are possessed by 10-20 ships at max. Ships that will die just as easily to a rain of thermonuclear blasts.:smalltongue:

Those supercarriers just don't have the numbers. If they go down, Protoss can no longer prosecute their "lightning war" strategy, which favors the NR in its immense numbers.

[Talkkno]

Powers that are possessed by 10-20 ships at max. Ships that will die just as easily to a rain of thermonuclear blasts.:smalltongue:

Those supercarriers just don't have the numbers. If they go down, Protoss can no longer prosecute their "lightning war" strategy, which favors the NR in its immense numbers.
It worked for Thrawn, and hyperdrive is alot slower...

[LordVader]

What I'm saying is that, while they will indeed still be able to take out a decent chunk of worlds, eventually they will run out of Carriers that can glass planets. That drags them into the very kind of war they're trying to avoid, one more centered on attrition and numbers.

Also, Thrawn never bombarded planets out of existence.:smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

Powers that are possessed by 10-20 ships at max. Ships that will die just as easily to a rain of thermonuclear blasts.:smalltongue:

Those supercarriers just don't have the numbers. If they go down, Protoss can no longer prosecute their "lightning war" strategy, which favors the NR in its immense numbers.

Actually, it just says a "small number". That can mean a lot more than 10 to 20. Hell, at 1% of the fleet and a fleet of 25,000 (as many carriers as the Empire has stardestroyers) that is 250 super carriers.

You don't seem to get it. The Protoss have ruled half the galaxy for almost a thousand years. Having carriers in the ten's of thousands is not outrageous. They sent fleets of hundreds of them on scouting missions, and they were running a lot of scouting missions at the same time.

The Empire doesn't have much if any advantage in numbers. On the ground the Protoss have moons and asteroids filled with Colossus, robots so powerful and deadly that their effectiveness appalled the Protoss (a people who glass worlds as a regular method of dealing with enemies).

[Talkkno]

Actually, it just says a "small number". That can mean a lot more than 10 to 20. Hell, at 1% of the fleet and a fleet of 25,000 (as many carriers as the Empire has stardestroyers) that is 250 super carriers.

.

You know, not to chime one way or anouther, but the Empire is grossly demilltrized consirding the following anylsis. Also consider from the Rebellion Era sources book, the Empire has standardized military tech from all its major contractors...Though we are talking about the much more incompetent NR.... Just to throw some numbers here..hehe

"Okay, if we take take the stated dimensions of a Venator class ISD and scale as is appropriate to get the Imperator Class it works itself out to be roughly 1600x771x100 (we disregard the bridge tower as the actual height of the ship, as its significantly taller than the rest of the ship). Multiply by the area necessary to get the three dimensional volume of such a shape (1/2BxHxH (or 800x771x100)) and you get 61,680,000 M^3 of space. Now then, the DS2 clocks in at a whopping 900 kilometers in diameter. To get its volume (assuming completion) we use R^3(4/3)xPI or 450000^3(4/3) X 3.14... equals out to roughly 3.817035074E17 M^3 of production area. Now, if we multiply that by 60%, the commonly accepted percentage of completion... 2.290221044E17. Now, divide that by the above mentioned 61,680,000... and we get 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

Take that number and divide it by a six month time period (182.5 days) and it equals out to... 20,345,584.32 ISDs per day. Or, if we really want to get nitpicky, 847,732.68 ISDs an hour, 14,128.878 ISDs a minute, or a whopping 235.4813 ISDs per second.

Now, unless my memory has utterly failed me, a GCS is generally assumed to be 1/10th the volume of a ISD, which means that a private shipping company has the ability to crank out what amounts to nearly 2,400 GCS in a single second while using discrete shipments of raw materials. "

[Emperor Tippy]

And cannon states that the empire has 25,000 stardestroyers.

[Talkkno]

And cannon states that the empire has 25,000 stardestroyers.

I was merely showing how undermilltizared the Empire was, not swaying any of the numbers in either's favor.

[13_CBS]

You don't seem to get it. The Protoss have ruled half the galaxy for almost a thousand years. Having carriers in the ten's of thousands is not outrageous. They sent fleets of hundreds of them on scouting missions, and they were running a lot of scouting missions at the same time.

Edit: eh, nevermind.

[Eita]

And cannon states that the empire has 25,000 stardestroyers.

Where in the canon!?

[Talkkno]

Where in the canon!?

Spector of the Past; pg 7. Though it keep in mind it says "Over 25,000" IRRC, and it is onyl stating the number of Imperial 1 class ones.

[Eita]

Thank you. Tippy, check your facts next time. Also, your math was fundamentally off. The Empire had the entire galaxy. The Protoss (debatedly) had half the galaxy. They probably protected many worlds, but didn't consider them theirs and so didn't use them to build their war machine.

[Emperor Tippy]

Where in the canon!?


Imperial-class Star Destroyers are constructed by Kuat Drive Yards and hold a distinguished place in the Imperial Navy, symbolizing the Empire's military might with a peak number of more than 25,000 vessels.

fillerwords

[Eita]

Key word=more.

[Emperor Tippy]

Thank you. Tippy, check your facts next time. Also, your math was fundamentally off. The Empire had the entire galaxy. The Protoss (debatedly) had half the galaxy. They probably protected many worlds, but didn't consider them theirs and so didn't use them to build their war machine.

More than 25,000. Yeah, and if it was more than 50,000 or more than a hundred thousand they would have used one of those numbers.

The milkway is larger than the Star War's galaxy. And the Empire had a lot less time to build a fleet.

The size of the Imperial Fleet doesn't really matter though, except as a reference point for the minimum number of capital ships you can expect a large, galaxy spanning empire to possess.

[Eita]

More than 25,000. Yeah, and if it was more than 50,000 or more than a hundred thousand they would have used one of those numbers.

The milkway is larger than the Star War's galaxy. And the Empire had a lot less time to build a fleet.

The size of the Imperial Fleet doesn't really matter though, except as a reference point for the minimum number of capital ships you can expect a large, galaxy spanning empire to possess.

This comes from where...? And honestly, WTF? The Empire and the Republic were pretty much just building ships.

Actually, it does matter. Because that's the number of ships that can blow the big stuff up.

[Talkkno]

This comes from where...? And honestly, WTF? The Empire and the Republic were pretty much just building ships.

[/U]

The Galxey far far way is about 100k light years arcoss according to wookiepedia, the Milky way galxey is about 130k light years.

[Eita]

Fine then. Assuming that the Protoss did get half the galaxy, the Empire still has way more land then them.

[Emperor Tippy]

Fine then. Assuming that the Protoss did get half the galaxy, the Empire still has way more land then them.

And this thread is about the new republic. Not the empire.

As for the number of ships mattering, that only matters if you are the attacking force. Unless you want to argue that the New Republic has enough ships to station a full fleet around each and every world under their control.

The number of ships only matters if you are the attacker. And since the New Republic has no way to find the Protoss homeworld they aren't the attacker. So the number of ships the Protoss have that are capable of glassing planets matters. The number of ships the empire has capable of the same feat doesn't matter.

[Eita]

Uhh... Actually... Those ship numbers, yeah... They can be used for a nifty thing called defense.

Also, why couldn't they find out? Just stick a Jedi in there and let a battle of the wills occur in an interrogation room.

[Emperor Tippy]

Uhh... Actually... Those ship numbers, yeah... They can be used for a nifty thing called defense.
So the New Republic has a fleet large enough to provide at least several hundred capital ships to stay in permanent orbit around every planet they have? They have something like a million systems IIRC.

Unless they have those kinds of numbers the defense forces don't really matter.


Also, why couldn't they find out? Just stick a Jedi in there and let a battle of the wills occur in an interrogation room.
So the Jedi agaisnt the Protoss in a battle of wills. And you bet on the Jedi? The Protoss are born reading minds, they have a telepathic connection not every other member of their race. In Star Wars terms every single Protoss that you would encounter on the field of battle is a Force User with over a hundred years of experience and who's race has been Force Users of extreme power for over a thousand years.

And thats if the Protoss doesn't just kill its self. They are called Zealots for a reason.

[Eita]

One Zealot vs. about a hundred Jedi. That should be enough. And since they know everything about their own culture...

[Emperor Tippy]

One Zealot vs. about a hundred Jedi. That should be enough. And since they know everything about their own culture...

So your capturing alive the being that can rip its body in half with its mind, will rips its body in half to prevent you from learning anything from it, has an alien mind far more powerful than any encountered before, and is part of a hive mind.

[Fan]

I agree and we are talking about new republic they only have like 4 jedi of any merit until the end of the crappy young jedi books about jacen and his twin so they have 6 jedi boo hoo and soon enough the jedi would die lightsabers or not

[LordVader]

Actually, it just says a "small number". That can mean a lot more than 10 to 20. Hell, at 1% of the fleet and a fleet of 25,000 (as many carriers as the Empire has stardestroyers) that is 250 super carriers.

You don't seem to get it. The Protoss have ruled half the galaxy for almost a thousand years. Having carriers in the ten's of thousands is not outrageous. They sent fleets of hundreds of them on scouting missions, and they were running a lot of scouting missions at the same time.

The Empire doesn't have much if any advantage in numbers. On the ground the Protoss have moons and asteroids filled with Colossus, robots so powerful and deadly that their effectiveness appalled the Protoss (a people who glass worlds as a regular method of dealing with enemies).


It says a "handful". That's not a large number any way you look at it.

May I also point out that those 25,000 capital ships will be supported by numberless smaller ships, ranging from Carrack-class cruisers to Dreadnaughts to Hapan Battle Dragons? It wouldn't be just 25,000 capital ships versus the Protoss' entire fleet, it'd be more like ~200,000.

[Nibleswick]

So the New Republic has a fleet large enough to provide at least several hundred capital ships to stay in permanent orbit around every planet they have? They have something like a million systems IIRC.

Unless they have those kinds of numbers the defense forces don't really matter.
*snip*



Those ships are just the ones in the Navy, most planets have their own militias, and when it comes to defense, it seems that everyone is forgetting about little things like the Gollan Arms Defense Platforms that are oh so common (each one can easily take on two Star Destroyers), oh and what about mine fields those are very common and cheep.

[Hasivel]

Those ships are just the ones in the Navy, most planets have their own militias, and when it comes to defense, it seems that everyone is forgetting about little things like the Gollan Arms Defense Platforms that are oh so common (each one can easily take on two Star Destroyers), oh and what about mine fields those are very common and cheep.
Folks're grossly overstating the size of the NR Military. They're severely demilitarized in comparison to the Empire, which was already bizarrely tiny in size for a galactic military.

According to Wookiepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Republic), the New Republic operates five full fleets each consisting of "hundreds" of ships. However these hundreds of ships include transports, cargo carriers, and other support vessels, leaving relatively few combat capships. The protoss fleet size is quite vaugely defined as "Thousands" but if we assume an average level of 500 for each fleet and 5000 for the Protoss the Republic is going to be horribly outnumbered. In fact even at a very unreasonable estimate of the largest possible Republic fleet size (900 ships per fleet) and smallest possible Protoss fleet size (2000 ships), the Republic need only be half Support vessels to leave them close to equal in number (2000 Protoss vs. 2250 Republic).

Most republic militias are strictly ground-forces, Terra Sool's militia was considered unusually well equipped simply because they had their own fighters. I've never heard of any Star Wars planetary defense militia with it's own capital ships.

Given this, it's very reasonable to assume the Protoss will in fact outnumber the New Republic in capital class starships. Given that fleet size and firepower was the only advantage they had, I can't see how the Republic can possibly win. The Protoss are faster, can choose their own battlegrounds to their own best advantage, and have all sorts of special powers the Republic has no way to counter (Mind Control in particular is going to be a killer). Meanwhile the Republic has basically huge swaths of territory they can't defend and a tiny number of Jedi who will be the first targets of mind control/assassination and don't have anything the Protoss can't do better except a weak unreliable precognitive power.