Cleric Healer/Tank help.

[Metahuman1]

Lemme preface this. I'm not fond of Pathfinder personally, and don't play it anymore at all really. I MUCH prefer 3.5, Mutants and Masterminds 3E, FATE, and I'm getting into Shadowrun 5E now.

That said, a friend of mine has asked for some help. She built a Cleric to be the party's main Melee/Tanky person and to be there healer, since everyone else went with something squishy.

She's an Archon-blooded Aasimar Merciful Healing Cleric, true neutral, with the Improved Initiative, Additional Traits, Enlarge Spell, Reach Spell and Lighting Reflexes feats. She's wearing Elven Chain and using a Mithral Heavy Shield, and has a magic item that gives her an extra move action. She and the party are 8th level. She's thinking about going Hunter next level, and then dipping Sorcerer for 1 level before the games over for some thematic stuff.

She's having some problems lately with landing hits and/or getting enemy's to fail saves Vs. Her spells, and with enemy's having a really easy time beating her AC 23.


Now, she's asked me for some help correcting that, cause I know a fair bit about 3.5 D&D optimization. She doesn't want to be soloing or one shoting most encounters, but standing up too them and doing something other than merely damage sponge would be desirable. Game has on 3rd party or 3.5 Backport access, all official Paizo content only.



Soooooooo, I need some help. What can I suggest too her to build up her ability to land a hit, and her ability to either take hits more efficiently (Is there like a spell that let's her put half the damage on a target or something?) or avoid getting hit in the first place?

All day or most of the day solutions preferred.


Unfortunately other than Magic Vestments and picking up extend spell at 9th level, I don't really know anything for Pathfinder to do this. Again, not my system.

[Eldariel]

Much the same as in 3.5: more Cleric levels. Indeed, many of the better tools to address this issue, particularly this side of reworking feats/domains/god/archetype, is just picking spells right.

Level 9 would enable Quicken Spell Divine Favor for +3/+3 and Righteous Might. PF Divine Power is just Divine Favor+ so not worth bothering with yet. Level 8 offers GMW and Magic Vestment +2. Death Knell always exists as a caster level buff. Imbue with Spell Ability + Shield Other (preferably on a minion) is a great way to enhance durability Magic Circle is a good AC buff for 10 min/level.


Animated Shield is still good for casters: move action to activate it and standard to cast a spell. Magic Vestment it up for fun and profit. Also spellstoring weapon is nice.

Best spells to use are the same as ever: object version of Silence offers no save, Summons are incredible in PF and there are even feats to enhance them.


There's always Fogcutting Lens + Eversmoking Bottle/Fog spells for onesided 50% miss chance, but that's a tad strong foe the resources invested.

[Metahuman1]

Much the same as in 3.5: more Cleric levels. Indeed, many of the better tools to address this issue, particularly this side of reworking feats/domains/god/archetype, is just picking spells right.

Level 9 would enable Quicken Spell Divine Favor for +3/+3 and Righteous Might. PF Divine Power is just Divine Favor+ so not worth bothering with yet. Level 8 offers GMW and Magic Vestment +2. Death Knell always exists as a caster level buff. Imbue with Spell Ability + Shield Other (preferably on a minion) is a great way to enhance durability Magic Circle is a good AC buff for 10 min/level.


Animated Shield is still good for casters: move action to activate it and standard to cast a spell. Magic Vestment it up for fun and profit. Also spellstoring weapon is nice.

Best spells to use are the same as ever: object version of Silence offers no save, Summons are incredible in PF and there are even feats to enhance them.


There's always Fogcutting Lens + Eversmoking Bottle/Fog spells for onesided 50% miss chance, but that's a tad strong foe the resources invested.

Eh, Pathfinder is mean to PC melee in my experience, and if it's too much they can just stop using the 2 items in conjunction for the Fogcutting Lens + Eversmoking Bottle/Fog Spells.


Tell me, is there a material that is comparable or close too Riverine form 3.5 in terms of how hard it is to break it? Cause I might suggest using that stuff to have a little statue made, and then when the cleric can animate objects, Animating the statue, targeting it with the Spell Ability + Shield Other combo (And a lesser rod of extend spell.), and then just tucking the statue in her pocket.


What other recommendations can you make for cleric spells and/or good items to look into?

[Eldariel]

Eh, Pathfinder is mean to PC melee in my experience, and if it's too much they can just stop using the 2 items in conjunction for the Fogcutting Lens + Eversmoking Bottle/Fog Spells.

*shrug* Up to the table, of course.


Tell me, is there a material that is comparable or close too Riverine form 3.5 in terms of how hard it is to break it? Cause I might suggest using that stuff to have a little statue made, and then when the cleric can animate objects, Animating the statue, targeting it with the Spell Ability + Shield Other combo (And a lesser rod of extend spell.), and then just tucking the statue in her pocket.

Well, Imbue with Spell Ability requires that the target have at least Int 5 and Wis 9. That does restrict the options somewhat; Commanded Undead would work just fine but of course that's not in the cards for this character. Planar Ally is of course on the table.

To answer your original question, nothing like Riverine. Adamantine is your best bet but it's more than sufficient for the purposes of making hard-to-kill statues.


What other recommendations can you make for cleric spells and/or good items to look into?

Spells...the usual work just fine, really. In addition to Magic Circle, Magic Vestment & Greater Magic Weapon, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Resist Energy (or Communal), Air Walk (or Communal), Freedom of Movement, etc. for numbers and immunities/abilities. Pathfinder didn't really add that many meaningful ones to that end, though see the end of this post.

Blindness/Deafness, Debilitating Portent [Ultimate Combat] (NO SAVE!), Terrible Remorse [Ultimate Magic], Hallucinogenic Smoke [Faiths & Philosophies], Stone Shape, Silence, etc. for offensive spells (but she needs to mind the good and bad saves of various enemy types; Knowledge-checks help a lot, hit the weak ones). Shatter can be good for hitting enemies' nonmagical weapons (most monsters like Giants lack proper magic weapons making them easy preys). Level 5 brings an awesome set with Major Curse, Wall of Stone, Plane Shift, Slay Living (though all of these got supernerfed to only deal damage in PF), etc.

For Summons, see Summoning Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16dZ5SBQMS1Yi6531tXOkKE_rmXEwn4VFacOEQKiHA5E/view#). It's too large a topic to delve into here sufficiently, but suffice to say, Summon Monster III - V are really, really good even with no feat investment and get the better the more you pour into them (starting from Lantern Archons as pewbots, Aidbots and general Awesomebots on SMIII).

Blessings of Fervor [APG] is a Cleric Haste so do pick it up if there's no Wizard around to cast it (though it's good enough to stack even if there's a Wizard; cast it in the morning to Extend all your level 1 and 2 buffs). Moment of Greatness [Ultimate Combat] is really good in parties with lots of Morale bonuses (Cleric themself is a poor one to provide them lest domaining for Heroics or going Evangelist or something).


For items, well, aside from the stuff I mentioned, Ioun Stones (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrous.aspx?FinalSlot=Ioun) are worth mentioning (particularly combined with Wayfinders and Resonant Powers but even alone). PF is full of really cheap Cracked and Flawed Ioun Stones that grant very significant bonuses for minor costs. Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone is +1 competence to hit or saves for 4k for instance. You get +1 to Initiative for 500gp and 10200 for complete immunity to Aging penalties but getting all the bonuses.

Goz Mask [Inner Sea World Guide] is another variant of the Fogcutting Lens, so that's worth noting. Again, they're really strong with or without Eversmoking Bottle.

Mostly the 3.5 stuff is quite good though; Strand of Prayer Beads (particularly Beads of Karma), Wis/Con/Str boosters (lest using something like Divine Fighting Technique or Guided Hand to get Cha or Wis to hit, in which case you don't really care that much), Haversack, all the scrolls and wands and such. And the mentioned Spellstoring Weapon: it's at its best on a Cleric. Reach Spellstoring weapon for a free spell whenever someone tries to approach you (doubly so if you Righteous Might it up) is just really nice.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldariel
…Summons are incredible in PF and there are even feats to enhance them.

I was going to ask about this, because the first thing I noticed when I switched to Pathfinder is how lackluster the summons were in comparison to 3.5.

I mainly played druids in 3.5, where you can summon a wolf with a first-level SNA, but in Pathfinder that’s been kicked up to second. The wolverine at second level has been kicked up to third, dire wolf has been moved from third to fourth, and the hippogriff and thoqqua, which were some of my go-to summons in 3.5, don’t seem to be options at all in PF.

Maybe the cleric summons are different, but playing as a druid I found the Pathfinder summons to be a disappointing downgrade. My attempts to summon lantern archons as an oracle didn't work out well either; poor little things just didn't last long enough. I'm sure if you build around the concept it's much more effective, but I just didn't get the mileage from summons that I'd been expecting based on my 3.5 experience.

[exelsisxax]

Eh, Pathfinder is mean to PC melee in my experience, and if it's too much they can just stop using the 2 items in conjunction for the Fogcutting Lens + Eversmoking Bottle/Fog Spells.


Tell me, is there a material that is comparable or close too Riverine form 3.5 in terms of how hard it is to break it? Cause I might suggest using that stuff to have a little statue made, and then when the cleric can animate objects, Animating the statue, targeting it with the Spell Ability + Shield Other combo (And a lesser rod of extend spell.), and then just tucking the statue in her pocket.


What other recommendations can you make for cleric spells and/or good items to look into?

This doesn't work. Abilities like Shield Other bypass all methods of reducing or further redirecting damage. The only thing that matters is HP, and adamantine doesn't get a huge amount more than steel.

[Eldariel]

I was going to ask about this, because the first thing I noticed when I switched to Pathfinder is how lackluster the summons were in comparison to 3.5.

I mainly played druids in 3.5, where you can summon a wolf with a first-level SNA, but in Pathfinder that’s been kicked up to second. The wolverine at second level has been kicked up to third, dire wolf has been moved from third to fourth, and the hippogriff and thoqqua, which were some of my go-to summons in 3.5, don’t seem to be options at all in PF.

Maybe the cleric summons are different, but playing as a druid I found the Pathfinder summons to be a disappointing downgrade. My attempts to summon lantern archons as an oracle didn't work out well either; poor little things just didn't last long enough. I'm sure if you build around the concept it's much more effective, but I just didn't get the mileage from summons that I'd been expecting based on my 3.5 experience.

Okay, yeah, SNA got heavily nerfed (though with some outliers; the same link I gave covers those to a decent degree too though so I won't go there) and SM got heavily buffed (like, you can get a Succubus with SMVI; it has approximately the same DC on her best save-or-dies as an equal level Sorcerer or Wizard and packs a bunch). You can also outheal most healing spells and match Cures with Summons while giving a ton of useful abilities and such. It's kinda silly, but that's PF for you; it throws the balance of "SNA for beatsticks, SM for abilities" to the drain (though in 3.5, SNA got some great abilities too such as Unicorn or Oread) and with Fiendish/Celestial getting buffed with the Smite improvements and all the options to expand your list, SM is basically just the best for everything.

[Florian]

@Metahuman1:

Can she use the retraining rules to rebuild her character? What you posted reads terrible inefficient, as Clerics in PF don't have the easy route when it comes to replacing martial characters (unless you base them on a Samsatan and pilfer the whole Paladin spell list)

@Palanan:

Typical problem. SNA and Wild Shape/Polymorph were too powerful due to the strange interaction of stuff in the bestiary being geared to be enemies for a full party of four, so that was nerved pretty hard, for understandable reasons. The SM "block" can be a bit feat intensive, but starts adding a broad range of utility, once you broaden the list (for example, with Summon Good Monster) and work a bit on the eco my of actions (for example, Superior Summons and Sacred Summons). The concept as used in 3.5E was just a bit broken because of the underlying flaws (Still is in PF, in a way, because the Summon feats are the way into boosting Planar Ally/Binding to ridiculous levels).

[Metahuman1]

exelsisxax : Really? Damn. Ah well. I suppose summons will have to do then.

Florian: I'll bounce that at her, but I'm betting the answer is going to be no. Just a hunch from the fact that the GM won't allow 3rd party that's on the PFSRD, and won't allow 3.5 material.

[Florian]

Florian: I'll bounce that at her, but I'm betting the answer is going to be no. Just a hunch from the fact that the GM won't allow 3rd party that's on the PFSRD, and won't allow 3.5 material.

The retraining rules can be found in Ultimate Campaign, so Paizo stuff.