Asking for Proof that Psions aren't Tier 1

[Pippin]

Hi there.

This thread does not aim to start a world war, but could you name either one encounter that an ECL20 spellcaster can solve and an ECL20 Psion in possession of all possible powers can't; or one enemy that can only be defeated by an ECL20 spellcaster?

For this comparison to be fair, I would ask the spellcaster to stay away from any service or strategy that would involve the use of Psionics or psionic characters at some point; and I would ask the psion to stay away from all StP Erudites, spellcaster thralls and believers.

Thanks in advance for your insight!

[flare'90]

Look, if you take a Psion and remove the limitation that keeps it at Tier 2 (the limited amount of powers known), of course you get a Tier 1 class. For the same reason, a Sorcerer with unlimited spells known is Tier 1.

Now, why you do want others to do the legwork for you? If you believe that Psions are Tier 1 with their normal limitations, then you prove that.

[Pippin]

Look, if you take a Psion and remove the limitation that keeps it at Tier 2 (the limited amount of powers known), of course you get a Tier 1 class. For the same reason, a Sorcerer with unlimited spells known is Tier 1.

Now, why you do want others to do the legwork for you? If you believe that Psions are Tier 1 with their normal limitations, then you prove that.

I said that only to make things easier, since Psychic Reformation gives you any power you want. There's no need to be so angry.

[MeimuHakurei]

I said that only to make things easier, since Psychic Reformation gives you any power you want. There's no need to be so angry.

Psychic Reformation is a good argument - while a Psion cannot repick powers the way a Sorcerer can repick spells, you can alter the powers selected with Expanded Knowledge. Still, this is limited by only allowing you to repick up to 8th level powers.

In any case, Psions being Tier 2 is considered the default assumption and the burden of proof is on you if you think it's Tier 1. I personally consider them flexible and strong enough to work in Tier 1 parties at the very least.

[magic9mushroom]

With this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) it costs about 5k gp for a psion to effectively become Tier 1 via unlimited-use XP-free PsyRef.

Without it (via either PsyRef ban or Capacitor ban), they're clearly Tier 2 (because of limited powers known). They're not quite as limited as Sorcerers (1 power known =/= 1 spell known), but they still don't have everything.

Of course, if PsyRef is ruled to work on spell choices and the above exploit is allowed, almost every Tier 2 class becomes Tier 1.

@Meimu: PsyRef allows repicking powers known.

[Pippin]

I am as far from being a guru as my dog is, but sometimes I am under the impression that the tier system was written too early, or could be talked into adjustment. An example would be Druids. Druids are filed Tier 1 whereas they likely would not be if Shapechange did not exist. Raising a class to the best tier for the sole motive of one spell could be considered questionable. On the other hand, I am not convinced that Psions were filed Tier 2 with full knowledge of psionic tricks, possibly because not all of them were "discovered" back then.

More precisely, if Tier 1 classes are selected based on the amount of cheese they can pull off: Psions can use the "Mad Minute" trick, which allows them to take as many standard actions they wish before the beginning of their next turn. This trick can be arranged so that the Psion replenishes all of his power points during the process. It requires nothing more than the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionics. Psions' range of powers is wide enough to allow great versatility, including damage dealing, and I can't think of any encounter that would resist infinite standard actions coupled with infinite power points. This alone is more than what Druids can offer.

[Crake]

Psychic Reformation is a good argument - while a Psion cannot repick powers the way a Sorcerer can repick spells, you can alter the powers selected with Expanded Knowledge. Still, this is limited by only allowing you to repick up to 8th level powers.

In any case, Psions being Tier 2 is considered the default assumption and the burden of proof is on you if you think it's Tier 1. I personally consider them flexible and strong enough to work in Tier 1 parties at the very least.

Psychic reformation allows you to repick your powers known from psion levels, so you can repick your 9th level powers, you're not just limited to re-picking skills and feats. Hell, if you wanted to blow your xp, you could literally repick every power you have into something else. Expanded knowledge's power comes from allowing you to pick powers cross-list, so the only powers you don't have access to with psychic reformation and expanded knowledge are 9th level discipline powers.

[RoboEmperor]

Psychic reformation allows you to repick your powers known from psion levels, so you can repick your 9th level powers, you're not just limited to re-picking skills and feats. Hell, if you wanted to blow your xp, you could literally repick every power you have into something else. Expanded knowledge's power comes from allowing you to pick powers cross-list, so the only powers you don't have access to with psychic reformation and expanded knowledge are 9th level discipline powers.

I think the problem is that powers are nowhere near as powerful or versatile as spells. Most of the psion powers are range Personal, target of You, and lasts rounds/level. They got no long duration minionmancy either. Every spellcaster trick I've been trying to perform on my psion was a flop. Not even energy immunity shenanigans since their energy immunity is rounds/level instead of 24 hours. So even with psychic reformation they can't do everything. The only thing powers do better than spells are astral seed + mind switch. That and psyhic reformation were the only things I coveted when I played spellcasters but they're nowhere near as powerful as they could be because psions don't have gate, simulacrum or craft construct to cherry pick their new body, or the ungodly number of OP feats that spellcasters have access to (stacked metamagic reducers).

So no minionmancy, no buffs, no stacked metamagic reducers, all they got is the action economy nova, body swapping without a reliable way to get the desired body, and nerfed personal ranged buffs. Their utility and versatility is better than T3s but nowhere near as good as wizards, clerics, or Artificers.

I mean like, seriously, with buffs I can turn any creature into a god of destruction dealing 200+ damage in a full attack per round as early as level 11 and immune to virtually everything like save or dies/sucks, damage, etc., but powers? I can't think of a single psionic buff that is castable on others. Even metamorphosis and animal affinity are range personal.

So yeah, my opinion is their utility and versatility is midway between T1s and T3s. I mean, even their healing powers are personal range. So they're not tier 1. action economy nova is their one and only TO i-win button and that's in line with mailman which is t2.

[Pippin]

Persistent Power is a thing, from either Psionics Handbook or Hyperconscious.

Psions have access to the Thrallherd PrC, which is an improved version of the Leadership feat. Psions are better at minionmancy than spellcasters, without the shadow of a doubt.

[magic9mushroom]

More precisely, if Tier 1 classes are selected based on the amount of cheese they can pull off

The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is generally related to versatility rather than power. A Tier 1 or Tier 2 class has a bunch of stinky cheese and encounter-enders available; the difference is that a Tier 1 class has all or most of that stuff at its fingertips in a single build, whereas a Tier 2 class has to pick and choose somewhat irrevocably. There's some debate over whether classes with a small number of stinky-cheese things (effectively a pre-picked Tier 2) are Tier 2 or 3.

Regarding Druids: It's not just Shapechange, because tiers aren't solely about L20 capabilities. Animal Companion is a somewhat-nerfed Leadership as a class feature, Wild Shape is Polymorph all day without stopping you casting, and both are highly versatile because you can swap Animal Companions or Wild Shape forms whenever you want. It's also probably the SADdest class in existence, because literally anything except Con and Wis is unnecessary (a little Int doesn't hurt, but 4+Int skill points means you can get by without it). At level 17+, sure, it comes down to spells and Druid's list does not measure up to the Sor/Wiz or Clr+Domains lists. Druid also tends to have a lower optimisation ceiling than any other Tier 1 (except maybe Artificer, if it's ruled Tier 1) and a lot of Tier 2s, because of the dearth of good PrCs (excepting of course Planar Shepherd) and the tendency for most of the really stinky cheese to be locked up in, again, spells. Nonetheless, Druid 20 gets so much stuff which it doesn't have to pick that I'd say it earns Tier 1 easily.

Regarding Thrallherd: Yes, a Thrallherd is Tier 1 without a shadow of a doubt. That is why it is listed as being a PrC that raises the base class's tier. That doesn't make base Psion Tier 1 (without PsyRef abuse).

[RoboEmperor]

Persistent Power is a thing, from either Psionics Handbook or Hyperconscious.

Psions have access to the Thrallherd PrC, which is an improved version of the Leadership feat. Psions are better at minionmancy than spellcasters, without the shadow of a doubt.

I'm gonna have to disagree. Immunity to mind-affecting control spells is achieved as early as level 1 with protection from evil. And leadership is crap. You get it for a 2nd PC not for minionmancy. Minionmancy is infinite expendable powerful minions that you can sacrifice with total abandon.

For example, creating an army of simulacra for 100xp per hit die (for example, a Balor simulacrum can trivialized all encounters until level 20. With buffs? it will trivialize even 20th level. And you get this spell at 13th level). Getting access to colossal animated objects at really low levels, zombies at level 1 (DMM:Fell Animate). Lesser Planar Ally->mirror mephit, or even improved familiar->mirror mephit, Necrotic Tumors which bypass mind-affecting immunity, Planar Binding letting you bind literally NI outsiders for "free", hydra effigies, etc. etc.

And Cost reducers. Extract Demonic Essence halves all xp cost and the resulting cursed magic item is easily cured with a simple remove curse spell. Extraordinary Artisan stacked with magical artisan lets you craft things at virtually 1/4 of the market price.



Anyways, the important thing to take away from my post is
1. All psionic buffs are range:personal target:you, so... not exactly "utility" or "versatility" unless your entire party is just yourself.
2. Too many game breakers T1s have access to.

This isn't a bad thing by the way. I switched to psionics because it is lauded as being balanced and I can get everything I want from the game from a psion. But if we're comparing wizards or clerics or Artificers with psions, psions just don't stand a chance. Against sorcerers they definitely do so... t2.

[RoboEmperor]

Let me just illustrate something for you.

Cleric
He can cast Death Ward to make his party immune to SoDs and negative hp
He can cast Freedom of Movement to make his party immune to stuns and BFC
He can cast Investiture of the Orthon to give a nice sonic damage retribution buff and let players shutdown enemy's teleports
He can cast Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor to give infinite hp to his party mates
He can heal his party mates' ability damage, ability drain, diseases, curses, etc.
He can cast Resist Energy or Protection from Energy to protect his party members from energy damage.
He can cast Energy Immunity to make his party members immune to dragon breath attacks
He can cast True Seeing to help his party members overcome concealment and invisibility
He can cast Bulls' Strength/Cat's Grace/etc. to help his party members deal more damage.
He can cast Shield of Faith and Magic Vestment to boost his party member's AC.

Psion
Freedom of Movement: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack.
Body Adjustment: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Body Adaptation: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Energy Adaptation: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Metamorphosis: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack.
True Seeing: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Animal Affinity: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Inertial Armor: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack

Do these belong in the same tier?

[Pippin]

I'm unsure if sugh a high level of TO is required to be Tier 1. In most games, no, in all games, Leadership is not crap. Thrallherds can sacrifice more than a hundred minions and have them all replaced the next day. I have no idea what your intentions are, but that is enough for one day surely?

If you really want to go that deep into cheese, Psions can create an arbitrarily high number of Astral Constructs from one round to the next. I don't know what your encounter is, but I wouldn't bet on it.

You say Psions don't stand a chance against Clerics or Artificers, sure, why don't you elaborate on that? To me you're reciting the rhetoric that's been around for years more than justifying it. I apologise if that sounds patronizing, that is not my intention.


Let me just illustrate something for you.

Cleric
He can cast Death Ward to make his party immune to SoDs and negative hp
He can cast Freedom of Movement to make his party immune to stuns and BFC
He can cast Investiture of the Orthon to give a nice sonic damage retribution buff and let players shutdown enemy's teleports
He can cast Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor to give infinite hp to his party mates
He can heal his party mates' ability damage, ability drain, diseases, curses, etc.
He can cast Resist Energy or Protection from Energy to protect his party members from energy damage.
He can cast Energy Immunity to make his party members immune to dragon breath attacks
He can cast True Seeing to help his party members overcome concealment and invisibility
He can cast Bulls' Strength/Cat's Grace/etc. to help his party members deal more damage.
He can cast Shield of Faith and Magic Vestment to boost his party member's AC.

Psion
Freedom of Movement: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack.
Body Adjustment: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Body Adaptation: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Energy Adaptation: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Metamorphosis: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack.
True Seeing: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Animal Affinity: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Inertial Armor: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack

Do these belong in the same tier?

Edit. I was unaware that Tier 1 mandatory requirements included the ability to give other party members all sorts of buffs. However meaningful that may or may not be, let's assume they do, and that you have a point. What else do you have?


And Cost reducers. Extract Demonic Essence halves all xp cost and the resulting cursed magic item is easily cured with a simple remove curse spell. Extraordinary Artisan stacked with magical artisan lets you craft things at virtually 1/4 of the market price.
Edit. Well since TO is that important, Psions can bypass XP costs in many different ways by RAW. The "Do the Wight Thing" trick comes to mind, and can't be argued in any way. Other tricks are possible too. Linked Power, Soul Crystal and Fission all enable you to disregard XP costs, and the first two also laugh at manifesting time. They might be arguable, but not by RAW.

[Troacctid]

Hi there.

This thread does not aim to start a world war, but could you name either one encounter that an ECL20 spellcaster can solve and an ECL20 Psion in possession of all possible powers can't; or one enemy that can only be defeated by an ECL20 spellcaster?
Let me answer your question with a question. Could you name an encounter that an ECL 20 cleric can solve, but an ECL 20 truenamer can't?

[Pippin]

Let me answer your question with a question. Could you name an encounter that an ECL 20 cleric can solve, but an ECL 20 truenamer can't?
Not that familiar with the class, but what about a wilder affected by Timeless Body.

[magic9mushroom]

Truenamers have Gate as an SLA at level 20. 1/minute.

The point Troacctid is making is that having that cheese at level 20 doesn't make up for sucking L1-L19.

[Unavenger]

Not that familiar with the class, but what about a wilder affected by Timeless Body.

That's actually almost easier for the truenamer to deal with than the cleric, because the truenamer doesn't have to roll a dispel check to get rid of timeless body, and can do so as a swift action without special preparation. Not that that's the point.

...As an aside, what is it with tier threads and bringing up truenamers like a broken record?

[RoboEmperor]

You say Psions don't stand a chance against Clerics or Artificers, sure, why don't you elaborate on that? To me you're reciting the rhetoric that's been around for years more than justifying it. I apologise if that sounds patronizing, that is not my intention.

I can't play artificers because every single time I play artificers I break the game somehow.
1. I tried creating Large Animated Objects with artificers at level 2 instead of colossal objects. Still broke the game because large animated objects are literally invincible against all creatures at that level. Imagine if I went Colossal instead of Large. My DM remains convinced even at level 12 Colossal Animated Objects are too strong especially considering the fact that these AOs fly and can be made out of adamantine.
2. I tried casting Planar Binding at level 8 which is 3 levels earlier than wizards. Broke the game.
3. I tried creating Hydra Effigies at level 6 which outperformed our party barbarian by miles and was unkillable as well because nothing at level 6 overcomes construct immunities or the effigy's bulk. Broke the game.
4. I tried creating Scrolls of Simulacrum at level 6. Broke the game.
5. I tried creating Scrolls of Wishes at level 7 and spend like 30,000xp on that one scroll to create at-will elemental monolith item. No surprise that I broke the game. This was actually my first artificer.

Thankfully these were all one shots my table played just to test out the relative power of my various artificer builds so I didn't break a real game, but yeah. Tell me, at what level do Psions start breaking the game? Just to be clear, the above artificers were NOT my attempt at TO. They were my attempt to build an actual playable artificer that I can enjoy. So I was going out of my way to NOT break the game, but in the end I broke the game.


Edit. I was unaware that Tier 1 mandatory requirements included the ability to give other party members all sorts of buffs. However meaningful that may or may not be, let's assume they do, and that you have a point. What else do you have?

That's pretty much it
T1s are not selfish
T1s can break the game earlier than psions
T1s can break the game harder than psions
T1s can do virtually anything but psions can't because the psionic power toolbox is just not big enough and overbloated like the spellcasting toolbox.
T1s will always dwarf the psion in performance because of better spells and non-personal range stuff.
Psions' power level is comparable to sorcerers. Mailman v.s. action economy nova, limited versatility/utility and is selfish.


Edit. Well since TO is that important, Psions can bypass XP costs in many different ways by RAW. The "Do the Wight Thing" trick comes to mind, and can't be argued in any way. Other tricks are possible too. Linked Power, Soul Crystal and Fission all enable you to disregard XP costs, and the first two also laugh at manifesting time. They might be arguable, but not by RAW.

Fission seems plausible. Since if you die and the Fission cures its negative level, it retains its original level and xp so it's safe to say the duplicate has its xp points separate from you and identical to you, and since if the duplicate dies you only get 1 curable negative level, there's no way you lose xp upon rejoining, and even if you do, this is solved by simply killing your duplicate before rejoining and then manifesting restoration on yourself.

Wow! Thanks dude! Being unable to cheat Reality Revision's xp cost has been really bumming me out since my epic level strategy revolves around reality revision because astral constructs cannot contend epic creatures and being left in a scenario where I can't manifest a single reality revision is a real possibility, but now it no longer bums me out since Fission can give me free reality revisions! Not that I will use this trick in a real game but still it's nice to know I have options.

Linked Power says the power is not altered in anyway except that you don't need to pay actions or power point which means you still have to pay xp.

Soul Crystal fails to mention XP so when the DM says you can't create soul crystals of powers that require xp cost because you can't put xp into a soul crystal he's not house ruling.


...As an aside, what is it with tier threads and bringing up truenamers like a broken record?

Because it's in its own tier for being unplayably awful and named the defacto worst class in the game. Artificers are the strongest, truenamers are the worst, and everything is in between.

[noob]

I can't play artificers because every single time I play artificers I break the game somehow.
1. I tried creating Large Animated Objects with artificers at level 2 instead of colossal objects. Still broke the game because large animated objects are literally invincible against all creatures at that level. Imagine if I went Colossal instead of Large. My DM remains convinced even at level 12 Colossal Animated Objects are too strong especially considering the fact that these AOs fly and can be made out of adamantine.
2. I tried casting Planar Binding at level 8 which is 3 levels earlier than wizards. Broke the game.
3. I tried creating Hydra Effigies at level 6 which outperformed our party barbarian by miles and was unkillable as well because nothing at level 6 overcomes construct immunities or the effigy's bulk. Broke the game.
4. I tried creating Scrolls of Simulacrum at level 6. Broke the game.
5. I tried creating Scrolls of Wishes at level 7 and spend like 30,000xp on that one scroll to create at-will elemental monolith item. No surprise that I broke the game. This was actually my first artificer.

Thankfully these were all one shots my table played just to test out the relative power of my various artificer builds so I didn't break a real game, but yeah. Tell me, at what level do Psions start breaking the game? Just to be clear, the above artificers were NOT my attempt at TO. They were my attempt to build an actual playable artificer that I can enjoy. So I was going out of my way to NOT break the game, but in the end I broke the game.



That's pretty much it
T1s are not selfish
T1s can break the game earlier than psions
T1s can break the game harder than psions
T1s can do virtually anything but psions can't because the psionic power toolbox is just not big enough and overbloated like the spellcasting toolbox.
T1s will always dwarf the psion in performance because of better spells and non-personal range stuff.
Psions' power level is comparable to sorcerers. Mailman v.s. action economy nova, limited versatility/utility and is selfish.



Fission seems plausible. Since if you die and the Fission cures its negative level, it retains its original level and xp so it's safe to say the duplicate has its xp points separate from you and identical to you, and since if the duplicate dies you only get 1 curable negative level, there's no way you lose xp upon rejoining, and even if you do, this is solved by simply killing your duplicate before rejoining and then manifesting restoration on yourself.

Wow! Thanks dude! Being unable to cheat Reality Revision's xp cost has been really bumming me out since my epic level strategy revolves around reality revision because astral constructs cannot contend epic creatures and being left in a scenario where I can't manifest a single reality revision is a real possibility, but now it no longer bums me out since Fission can give me free reality revisions! Not that I will use this trick in a real game but still it's nice to know I have options.

Linked Power says the power is not altered in anyway except that you don't need to pay actions or power point which means you still have to pay xp.

Soul Crystal fails to mention XP so when the DM says you can't create soul crystals of powers that require xp cost because you can't put xp into a soul crystal he's not house ruling.



Because it's in its own tier for being unplayably awful and named the defacto worst class in the game. Artificers are the strongest, truenamers are the worst, and everything is in between.

Truenamers are not the worst class.
In fact with proper optimization it is comparable to a noble and with epic amounts of optimization you can get to use all the consumables(including stuff like scrolls) at will or cast infinite level utterances that triggers barrages of infinite damage thanks to blast bracers.
Or wish loop at level 1 because you got good at optimizing arbitrary skill checks and so you do a proper sacrifice to the dark forces.

[MisterKaws]

A Tier 1 is a denomination for classes that can trivialize almost any encounter without needing cheese, only a decent spell selection. Provided, of course, the encounter itself wasn't designed via cheese.

Here's a list of the T1 classes I remember just from memory alone and the reason they're categorized as such:

Cleric: First half of the CoDzilla duo. Can provide immunity/resistance to most effects. Can stealth by itself with Invisibility+ Dex buffs. Can locate traps via Detect series spells and disable them with lvl1 summons. Can fight on melee via Divine Power+other buffs. Can use most decent Save-or-Lose spells. Basically can sub in for any member of the party, and potentially do better than them.

Druid: Second half of the CoDzilla duo. Can provide immunity/resistance to most effects. Can stealth by itself with Invisibility+ small form Wild Shape. Can locate traps via Detect series spells and disable them with lvl1 summons. Can fight on melee via large form Wild Shape+other buffs AND Animal Companion. Can use some decent Save-or-Lose spells. Can use most of the best crowd control effects in the game, and actually has exclusive access to half of them, shared only with Spirit Shaman. Basically can sub in for any member of the party, and potentially do better than them.

Spirit Shaman: Can provide immunity/resistance to most effects. Can stealth by itself with Invisibility+buffs. Can locate traps via Detect series spells and disable them with lvl1 summons. Can somewhat fight on melee via buffs and polymorph. Can use some decent Save-or-Lose spells. Can use most of the best crowd control effects in the game, and actually has exclusive access to half of them, shared only with Druid. Basically a lesser Druid, with a bit less effectiveness at stealth and melee.

Artificer: Can do anything a cleric/wizard can do. Depends heavily on downtime, but otherwise can cast almost all spells in game easily.

Spell-to-Power Erudite: This is the only T1 Psion variation. Can cast most powers, given time to learn, and also spells. Still somewhat vulnerable to DM fiat depending on how cautious the campaign's casters are.

Wizard: Biggest selection of "I win" spells. Can cast almost all useful Save-or-Lose spells. Can stealth almost as well as a Cleric, and can deal with traps in the same way. Very weak in melee range, and very vulnerable to DM fiat, even when the DM is "playing fairly", due to the risk of losing their spellbook and due to limited number of spells known, if a DM doesn't want to let them learn more.

Archivist: Basically a Cleric, but with all Wizard weaknesses. Very susceptible to DM fiat.

I also organized them somewhat in order of "perfection". Perfection being how likely they are to be actually as effective as a T1 class is supposed to be, in a game where the DM doesn't just suck up to the players' every whim.

Yes, I placed Spirit Shaman really damn high there, what of it? It's basically a Druid with no sidekick and no Wild Shape. If anything, it has more flexible spellcasting than a Druid, although it can have less single-cast spells at any given time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Erudite is Tier 1, Psion is Tier 2, for the same reason that Wizard is Tier 1 and Sorcerer is Tier 2, and why Cleric and Archivist are Tier 1 and Favored Soul is Tier 2.

Any single-class character can rise to Tier 1 level of power given access to every 3.5 and grandfathered 3.0 resource ever published. The tier system applies regardless of what additional resources are available, so if given the bare minimum books (core plus whatever book the class appears in if non-core), a class still needs to be able to maintain its tier assignment.

A Sorcerer or Warmage or Beguiler or Dread Necromancer can get Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. A Sorcerer can get an Ancestral Relic custom Runestaff (and the other classes can do the same with UMD). A Rogue or Factotum or an NPC Expert even can max out UMD and use WBL shenanigans. That doesn't mean those classes are Tier 1, even though they can use those tricks to achieve Tier 1 level of power.

Psychic Reformation takes ten minutes to manifest. At the start of combat, you don't have access to every power in the game. Sure a Wizard or Cleric is in the same boat, they can't suddenly have any spell they know at their disposal, but they can realistically change what spells they have prepared every day. It's not realistic to hemorrhage xp using Psychic Reformation to pick your powers known like you're a Spirit Shaman. This is in the realm of saying Wizards can use Limited Wish to cast any spell of 6th level or lower (5th or lower from another class), but the difference is that a Wizard can choose to spend that xp when he needs it. Psychic Reformation spends the xp ahead of time anticipating the need for it and you can't change your mind, whereas a Wizard can prepare Limited Wish but not cast it if he doesn't need to.

[Unavenger]

Because it's in its own tier for being unplayably awful and named the defacto worst class in the game. Artificers are the strongest, truenamers are the worst, and everything is in between.

I mean, not really? It was in its own tier for being swingy, more than anything. It can comfortably outdo the real winner of the worst PC base class in the game award, the soulknife, with both hands tied behind its back. Then again, a warrior can outdo a soulknife with one hand tied behind its back at low levels...

[RoboEmperor]

Truenamers are not the worst class.
In fact with proper optimization it is comparable to a noble and with epic amounts of optimization you can get to use all the consumables(including stuff like scrolls) at will or cast infinite level utterances that triggers barrages of infinite damage thanks to blast bracers.
Or wish loop at level 1 because you got good at optimizing arbitrary skill checks and so you do a proper sacrifice to the dark forces.

I mean, not really? It was in its own tier for being swingy, more than anything. It can comfortably outdo the real winner of the worst PC base class in the game award, the soulknife, with both hands tied behind its back. Then again, a warrior can outdo a soulknife with one hand tied behind its back at low levels...

Perhaps I was reading some outdated tier list, but it was my understanding that they can't even do the most basic things without a high chance of failure so they were deemed unplayable.

Since I don't have much experience with the lower tiers I will take your word for it.

[MisterKaws]

Perhaps I was reading some outdated tier list, but it was my understanding that they can't even do the most basic things without a high chance of failure so they were deemed unplayable.

Since I don't have much experience with the lower tiers I will take your word for it.

They can have over 200% chance of success at almost all levels if you take Ancestral Relic, so they can effectively spam Quickened and normal utterances like a machinegun pretty easily. The only problem is the utterances suck.

But yeah they're a solid T3, but only if you let them have their items. Not like any non-caster can work effectively without items anyway. The Truenamer just sucks even harder than them.

Basically it's a class that revolves heavily on having skill bonus items, but if you have them, you can cosplay as a Warlock with how many casts you have. Also, being able to use all 4 "meta-naming" feats on any utterance of any level is pretty good, kinda like an Incantatrix, but with crappy spells.

[Crake]

Minionmancy is infinite expendable powerful minions that you can sacrifice with total abandon.

That's precisely what thrallherd gives you. You can completely sacrifice your thrall, and all the believers you get without any penalty to your "leadership" score, which is why it's better than leadership, and because the thrall and believers are under your aboslute control (not a mind-affecting effect, so can't be suppressed either), and are replaced within 24 hours automatically.

I'd say that's pretty damn decent minonmancy.

[Pippin]

I can't play artificers because every single time I play artificers I break the game somehow.
1. I tried creating Large Animated Objects with artificers at level 2 instead of colossal objects. Still broke the game because large animated objects are literally invincible against all creatures at that level. Imagine if I went Colossal instead of Large. My DM remains convinced even at level 12 Colossal Animated Objects are too strong especially considering the fact that these AOs fly and can be made out of adamantine.
2. I tried casting Planar Binding at level 8 which is 3 levels earlier than wizards. Broke the game.
3. I tried creating Hydra Effigies at level 6 which outperformed our party barbarian by miles and was unkillable as well because nothing at level 6 overcomes construct immunities or the effigy's bulk. Broke the game.
4. I tried creating Scrolls of Simulacrum at level 6. Broke the game.
5. I tried creating Scrolls of Wishes at level 7 and spend like 30,000xp on that one scroll to create at-will elemental monolith item. No surprise that I broke the game. This was actually my first artificer.

Thankfully these were all one shots my table played just to test out the relative power of my various artificer builds so I didn't break a real game, but yeah. Tell me, at what level do Psions start breaking the game? Just to be clear, the above artificers were NOT my attempt at TO. They were my attempt to build an actual playable artificer that I can enjoy. So I was going out of my way to NOT break the game, but in the end I broke the game.
Did you read what you just wrote? How could you say this is not an attempt at TO, and at the same time mention Simulacrum, Wish and Planar Binding, some of the most absurd spells in the entire game?

When was the last time you cast Fireball?


Linked Power says the power is not altered in anyway except that you don't need to pay actions or power point which means you still have to pay xp.
I'm sure, it is sad that nothing whatsoever confirms your belief though.


Soul Crystal fails to mention XP so when the DM says you can't create soul crystals of powers that require xp cost because you can't put xp into a soul crystal he's not house ruling.

I'm sure, it is unfortunate that the text states:

The imbued power can be manifested only by spending power points from the reserve you initially created when you made the soul crystal

I'm not saying you don't have a point. I'm saying you don't have a point by RAW.


A Tier 1 is a denomination for classes that can trivialize almost any encounter without needing cheese, only a decent spell selection. Provided, of course, the encounter itself wasn't designed via cheese.

Here's a list of the T1 classes I remember just from memory alone and the reason they're categorized as such:

Cleric: First half of the CoDzilla duo. Can provide immunity/resistance to most effects. Can stealth by itself with Invisibility+ Dex buffs. Can locate traps via Detect series spells and disable them with lvl1 summons. Can fight on melee via Divine Power+other buffs. Can use most decent Save-or-Lose spells. Basically can sub in for any member of the party, and potentially do better than them.

Druid: Second half of the CoDzilla duo. Can provide immunity/resistance to most effects. Can stealth by itself with Invisibility+ small form Wild Shape. Can locate traps via Detect series spells and disable them with lvl1 summons. Can fight on melee via large form Wild Shape+other buffs AND Animal Companion. Can use some decent Save-or-Lose spells. Can use most of the best crowd control effects in the game, and actually has exclusive access to half of them, shared only with Spirit Shaman. Basically can sub in for any member of the party, and potentially do better than them.

Spirit Shaman: Can provide immunity/resistance to most effects. Can stealth by itself with Invisibility+buffs. Can locate traps via Detect series spells and disable them with lvl1 summons. Can somewhat fight on melee via buffs and polymorph. Can use some decent Save-or-Lose spells. Can use most of the best crowd control effects in the game, and actually has exclusive access to half of them, shared only with Druid. Basically a lesser Druid, with a bit less effectiveness at stealth and melee.

Artificer: Can do anything a cleric/wizard can do. Depends heavily on downtime, but otherwise can cast almost all spells in game easily.

Spell-to-Power Erudite: This is the only T1 Psion variation. Can cast most powers, given time to learn, and also spells. Still somewhat vulnerable to DM fiat depending on how cautious the campaign's casters are.

Wizard: Biggest selection of "I win" spells. Can cast almost all useful Save-or-Lose spells. Can stealth almost as well as a Cleric, and can deal with traps in the same way. Very weak in melee range, and very vulnerable to DM fiat, even when the DM is "playing fairly", due to the risk of losing their spellbook and due to limited number of spells known, if a DM doesn't want to let them learn more.

Archivist: Basically a Cleric, but with all Wizard weaknesses. Very susceptible to DM fiat.

I also organized them somewhat in order of "perfection". Perfection being how likely they are to be actually as effective as a T1 class is supposed to be, in a game where the DM doesn't just suck up to the players' every whim.

Yes, I placed Spirit Shaman really damn high there, what of it? It's basically a Druid with no sidekick and no Wild Shape. If anything, it has more flexible spellcasting than a Druid, although it can have less single-cast spells at any given time.
So Clerics, Druids and Spirit Shamans are solid tops, and StP Erudites, Wizards and Archivists at the very end right?

Right.

I don't know what to tell you at this point.


Erudite is Tier 1, Psion is Tier 2, for the same reason that Wizard is Tier 1 and Sorcerer is Tier 2, and why Cleric and Archivist are Tier 1 and Favored Soul is Tier 2.

Any single-class character can rise to Tier 1 level of power given access to every 3.5 and grandfathered 3.0 resource ever published. The tier system applies regardless of what additional resources are available, so if given the bare minimum books (core plus whatever book the class appears in if non-core), a class still needs to be able to maintain its tier assignment.

A Sorcerer or Warmage or Beguiler or Dread Necromancer can get Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. A Sorcerer can get an Ancestral Relic custom Runestaff (and the other classes can do the same with UMD). A Rogue or Factotum or an NPC Expert even can max out UMD and use WBL shenanigans. That doesn't mean those classes are Tier 1, even though they can use those tricks to achieve Tier 1 level of power.

Psychic Reformation takes ten minutes to manifest. At the start of combat, you don't have access to every power in the game. Sure a Wizard or Cleric is in the same boat, they can't suddenly have any spell they know at their disposal, but they can realistically change what spells they have prepared every day. It's not realistic to hemorrhage xp using Psychic Reformation to pick your powers known like you're a Spirit Shaman. This is in the realm of saying Wizards can use Limited Wish to cast any spell of 6th level or lower (5th or lower from another class), but the difference is that a Wizard can choose to spend that xp when he needs it. Psychic Reformation spends the xp ahead of time anticipating the need for it and you can't change your mind, whereas a Wizard can prepare Limited Wish but not cast it if he doesn't need to.
Well if you need too many powers, just forget about Psychic Reformation and abuse Fusion and Astral Seed to learn everything you need then.

[MisterKaws]

So Clerics, Druids and Spirit Shamans are solid tops, and StP Erudites, Wizards and Archivists at the very end right?

Right.

I don't know what to tell you at this point.

Erudites need defenseless casters or casters willing to share to learn new spells, which is dependent on the DM. Wizards need other casters or spells, which are both dependent on DM. Archivists can only add spells either from leveling or scrolls, which is dependent on DM.

What does that mean? If a DM just does not want you to act as a T1, he can just not give you spellbooks and scrolls, and then the Erudite is little better than a Psion, the Wizard is a weaker Sorcerer(considering the Sorcerer spell list has a ton of exclusive game-breaking spells), and the Archivist is a weaker Favored Soul.

Yeah, yeah, Spirit Shamans have a weaker spell list than a Wizard, but they can't be axed unless a DM spawns meteors at your head, and at that point, no character can do anything.

And Cleric/Druid are just straight better than all of the others.


Well if you need too many powers, just forget about Psychic Reformation and abuse Fusion and Astral Seed to learn everything you need then.

You don't kinda understand the point, do you? If you can only do what a T1 can via cheese, it's not a T1, because any T1 can slay gods via cheese.

[ben-zayb]

Why measure it just at ECL20? Tier 1 classes get access to their versatile toys on all quartiles.

Suppose an ECL5 quest is an entirely underwater, lightless adventure, what would a psion do? Can it even aid its allies overcome that environmental limitations at ECL20 without resorting to items?

[Pippin]

You don't kinda understand the point, do you? If you can only do what a T1 can via cheese, it's not a T1, because any T1 can slay gods via cheese.
Would you be interested in giving this conversation an interesting development? Could you please name one god that the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King can slay via cheese, and the Psion can't? Only one. Should you fail to do so, you could still say something interesting by elaborating and explaining to us why the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King remain better at slaying gods than the Psion himself.

I genuinely look forward to your reply.


Why measure it just at ECL20? Tier 1 classes get access to their versatile toys on all quartiles.

Suppose an ECL5 quest is an entirely underwater, lightless adventure, what would a psion do? Can it even aid its allies overcome that environmental limitations at ECL20 without resorting to items?
Shapers get an improved version of Polymorph two levels later. Is that enough to banish them from Tier 1?

[Crichton]

Hi there.

This thread does not aim to start a world war, but could you name either one encounter that an ECL20 spellcaster can solve and an ECL20 Psion in possession of all possible powers can't; or one enemy that can only be defeated by an ECL20 spellcaster?

For this comparison to be fair, I would ask the spellcaster to stay away from any service or strategy that would involve the use of Psionics or psionic characters at some point; and I would ask the psion to stay away from all StP Erudites, spellcaster thralls and believers.

Thanks in advance for your insight!


I think we're operating from a fundamental misunderstanding of the tier system. A tier 2 class can reach the same level of power as a tier 1, so measuring them against one encounter isn't a useful metric.





The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is generally related to versatility rather than power.


A Tier 1 is a denomination for classes that can trivialize almost any encounter



These folks tried to steer us back on track, but apparently got ignored in the noise.


The difference between tier 1 and tier 2 isn't that they can both be built to handle the same one encounter, it's -as MisterKaws said- that tier 1 classes can operate at the top of the power spectrum in any encounter, or close to it. Generally speaking, outside of cheese, a Psion can't do that. If you want a more useful test, lay out your OP in terms of a large range of different encounters, to throw your hypothetical classes against.


And while I suppose with sufficient cheese a Psion could be built that's 'in possession of all possible powers' as you specified, that's not really what Psion as a class is.

The tier system isn't a measure of a particular build, but of the class in general. The class in general is limited primarily by their number of powers known. PsyRef and PsyChir offer tools to get around that, perhaps, but those are build tools, not class features.

[ben-zayb]

Shapers get an improved version of Polymorph two levels later. Is that enough to banish them from Tier 1?Do you mean Quintessence or Psionic Fabricate? Because those are what Shapers get at level 7.

Speaking of Polymorph, there's actually Metamorphosis, a discipline-exclusive power for Egoists. Way worse if you actually want to be useful to PCs orher than yourself, naturally.

So at 7 mins a pop, the Egoist has to find out, come up with a solution, anf complete whatever that underwater quest is, alone. Meanwhile, the T1s can sit back and give whoever PCs (i.e. more than 1) are the most fit for the quest hours to complete it.

[geekintheground]

Would you be interested in giving this conversation an interesting development? Could you please name one god that the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King can slay via cheese, and the Psion can't? Only one. Should you fail to do so, you could still say something interesting by elaborating and explaining to us why the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King remain better at slaying gods than the Psion himself.

I genuinely look forward to your reply.

sorry, i must have missed it reading the thread: why is god killing the measurement we're using? i thought it was common understanding that "if it has stats, anything can kill it"

from what i understand, psions are capable of doing anything a wizard (for example) can do. the reason theyre tier 2 while wizard is tier 1, is that they cant do EVERYTHING a wizard can do (without significant cheese and heavy investment). and from my understanding, the tier system is supposed to be in at least a pseudo-vacuum, investment free so that it remains fairly consistent across different campaigns and tables. like, the fact that a fighter can spend all their feats and gold to emulate a wizard doesnt impact their tier.

anyone can feel free to correct me if i've misunderstood something or was unclear.

[Pippin]

Do you mean Quintessence or Psionic Fabricate? Because those are what Shapers get at level 7.

Speaking of Polymorph, there's actually Metamorphosis, a discipline-exclusive power for Egoists. Way worse if you actually want to be useful to PCs orher than yourself, naturally.

So at 7 mins a pop, the Egoist has to find out, come up with a solution, anf complete whatever that underwater quest is, alone. Meanwhile, the T1s can sit back and give whoever PCs (i.e. more than 1) are the most fit for the quest hours to complete it.
I meant Egoists & Metamorphosis, as I assumed Breathless would not be a power that you'd want to keep for ever. Note that objects do not need to breath, and the according duration is 1 hour/level.


sorry, i must have missed it reading the thread: why is god killing the measurement we're using? i thought it was common understanding that "if it has stats, anything can kill it"
But it isn't. I guess the thread drifted in this direction because I mentioned ECL20 in the OP.

I think I see the problem now. I was mainly considering tiers at high levels, while the common consensus is that low and average levels matter just as much.

[RoboEmperor]

Did you read what you just wrote? How could you say this is not an attempt at TO, and at the same time mention Simulacrum, Wish and Planar Binding, some of the most absurd spells in the entire game?

When was the last time you cast Fireball?

I play minionmancers exclusively so I never cast fireball once in my entire d&d career. If using core spells as-is with no interaction with other spells or feats makes it absurd, then you have your answer as to why psions cannot compare to artificers, clerics, and wizards. They have absurd spells while psions do not. Reality Revision does close the gap significantly with aforementioned xp cheats but that's 17+, cheese, and free wishes are easier to obtain.


Would you be interested in giving this conversation an interesting development? Could you please name one god that the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King can slay via cheese, and the Psion can't? Only one. Should you fail to do so, you could still say something interesting by elaborating and explaining to us why the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King remain better at slaying gods than the Psion himself.

I genuinely look forward to your reply.

Ice Assassins of overgods.


And while I suppose with sufficient cheese a Psion could be built that's 'in possession of all possible powers' as you specified, that's not really what Psion as a class is.

The problem is that powers are range:personal and target:you. So even if you know all the powers you can't help anyone other than yourself so already your versatility compared to T1s are subpar/nonexistent. And there are significantly less powers than spells, powers are weaker than spells, and all the powers combined don't have a solution to every situation while spells do.

[Pippin]

I play minionmancers exclusively so I never cast fireball once in my entire d&d career. If using core spells as-is with no interaction with other spells or feats makes it absurd, then you have your answer as to why psions cannot compare to artificers, clerics, and wizards. They have absurd spells while psions do not. Reality Revision does close the gap significantly with aforementioned xp cheats but that's 17+, cheese, and free wishes are easier to obtain.
I don't understand why this is relevant, as a reply to what I said earlier.



Ice Assassins of overgods.
This is a Sor/Wiz spell.



The problem is that powers are range:personal and target:you. So even if you know all the powers you can't help anyone other than yourself so already your versatility compared to T1s are subpar/nonexistent. And there are significantly less powers than spells, powers are weaker than spells, and all the powers combined don't have a solution to every situation while spells do.
I have never implied that Psions are as powerful as Wizards, which seems to be your main fight since the beginning of this thread. My claim was: since Druids are Tier 1, I don't see why Psions aren't, given how competent they are.

[MisterKaws]

Would you be interested in giving this conversation an interesting development? Could you please name one god that the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King can slay via cheese, and the Psion can't? Only one. Should you fail to do so, you could still say something interesting by elaborating and explaining to us why the Cleric, the Druid and the Shaman King remain better at slaying gods than the Psion himself.

I genuinely look forward to your reply.

Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu

5 minutes later you have a dead god, and you only need to have two characters to do that, with any class, so that's not valid at all.

Being passive-agressive won't get you anywhere. My point stands: the tier-division system is made taking into account a real table with RAI rules where no cheese is used and the DM is playing everything as a sane person would do. So something close to an Adventurers' League 5e table, where the DM follows rules without allowing cheese.

As said above, the burden of proof is on your side. Prove us that, without anything that would get a book thrown at your head, your Psion can be as versatile as a T1 caster. That should also not include any prestige classes, because certain prestige classes(or combinations thereof) give characters abilities more akin to upper tiers.

Get me a Psion 1-20 that can do at least these at least within less than 2 levels of the other T1s gaining access to the same abilities:



Resistance or Immunity to at least three quarters of the more common(that means those shown in the PHB) damage types and debuffs, to multiple party members simultaneously
Aerial and aquatic movement to all party members
Debuff and damage multiple enemies per round
Create noticeable map alteration effects via varied Crowd Control effects(walls, barriers, pitfalls, whatever you fancy)
Buff multiple party members with appropriate stat buffs, plus circumstance buffs (truesight,invisibility,et cetera)
Buff the group warrior, or, in case there's no group warrior(and only then), act as one, either via self-buffs or sidekicks
Create effects that protect the whole party while resting(Alarm, Rope Trick, et cetera)


Remember, no cheese. And by cheese I mean anything on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook).


Ice Assassins of overgods.

Hmm didn't even think of that. Since overgods are transcendental and omnipresent, you could technically use a tiny portion of the fabric of reality nearby the statue as the material component.

...Damn, that's cheesy.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't understand why this is relevant, as a reply to what I said earlier.

You say Psions don't stand a chance against Clerics or Artificers, sure, why don't you elaborate on that? To me you're reciting the rhetoric that's been around for years more than justifying it. I apologise if that sounds patronizing, that is not my intention.

So you didn't ask me to elaborate why Psions don't stand a chance against clerics or artificers?


This is a Sor/Wiz spell.

You said cheese. Cheese means gate and free wishes. I don't know about shaman but planar shepherds have as much wish cheese as the other t1s.


I have never implied that Psions are as powerful as Wizards, which seems to be your main fight since the beginning of this thread. My claim was: since Druids are Tier 1, I don't see why Psions aren't, given how competent they are.

I'll back out of this one. Druids are not my forte. All I know is that they destroy games from level 1 and from my experience druids > psions. Now I don't know how a druid20 no prc compares to a psion20 no prc so... ttyl. Just remember tier 1s have to be useful outside combat too. There is nothing a wizard or cleric can't do with a combination of the right spells or minions (again no idea about druids) and a common complaint is that they hog the game by doing everything. I've yet to hear a Psion hogging the game by doing everything. Trivializing combat maybe but so do sorcerers and they're tier 2.

[ben-zayb]

I meant Egoists & Metamorphosis, as I assumed Breathless would not be a power that you'd want to keep for ever. Note that objects do not need to breath, and the according duration is 1 hour/level.You also lose mobility as an object, so that hour per level is pretty much wasted unless you waste more PP trying to drag yourself. Unfortunately, objects don't have darkvision either, so you need to waste more PP for your short-duration solution to darkness.

The point being, even something as trivial as this takes too much effort from a psion. It doesn't make or break the T1 requirements, but it's symptomatic of the psion's powerscope issues.

[MisterKaws]

So you didn't ask me to elaborate why Psions don't stand a chance against clerics or artificers?



You said cheese. Cheese means gate and free wishes. I don't know about shaman but planar shepherds have as much wish cheese as the other t1s.



I'll back out of this one. Druids are not my forte. All I know is that they destroy games from level 1 and from my experience druids > psions. Now I don't know how a druid20 no prc compares to a psion20 no prc so... ttyl. Just remember tier 1s have to be useful outside combat too. There is nothing a wizard or cleric can't do with a combination of the right spells or minions (again no idea about druids) and a common complaint is that they hog the game by doing everything. I've yet to hear a Psion hogging the game by doing everything. Trivializing combat maybe but so do sorcerers and they're tier 2.

Druids destroy the game from level 1 because the level 1 Animal Companion(particularly the wolf with its tripping) is as strong as an average level 2 Fighter. And on higher levels it keeps getting worse. Then you add Wild Shape and suddenly you can be as effective as three same-level Fighters while also being a caster. Which can also trivialize the Rogue by taking a smaller form.

Basically they can do the same thing as the classic 4-man team, but by themselves. And they get the best crowd control spells as Druid-exclusive. And a single crowd control spell is usually enough against most targets, unless they are also casters.

[Luccan]

Psions aren't considered T1 because they lack the main quality of innate versatility. Yes, any theoretical Psion could compete in a purely T1 environment, but many Psions can't because their power choices are locked by level. Even a (practical, not theoretical) PsyRef Psion won't have the infinite amount of XP needed to constantly switch our powers. Just like the Sorcerer, there are ways around being stuck with your spell list for a whole level, but in practice there's generally little that can be done about it. They aren't T2 because they can't be built to handle many "T1 Threats", they're T2 because they lack an inherent versatility that comes from being able to switch out your abilities every day (and thus are much easier to build poorly). There's no need to prove that, since it's fairly obvious and has nothing to do with their theoretical ability to handle threats, just their actual ability to switch out powers and adapt to challenges.

[Pippin]

Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu

5 minutes later you have a dead god, and you only need to have two characters to do that, with any class, so that's not valid at all.

Being passive-agressive won't get you anywhere. My point stands: the tier-division system is made taking into account a real table with RAI rules where no cheese is used and the DM is playing everything as a sane person would do. So something close to an Adventurers' League 5e table, where the DM follows rules without allowing cheese.

As said above, the burden of proof is on your side. Prove us that, without anything that would get a book thrown at your head, your Psion can be as versatile as a T1 caster. That should also not include any prestige classes, because certain prestige classes(or combinations thereof) give characters abilities more akin to upper tiers.

Get me a Psion 1-20 that can do at least these at least within less than 2 levels of the other T1s gaining access to the same abilities:



Resistance or Immunity to at least three quarters of the more common(that means those shown in the PHB) damage types and debuffs, to multiple party members simultaneously
Aerial and aquatic movement to all party members
Debuff and damage multiple enemies per round
Create noticeable map alteration effects via varied Crowd Control effects(walls, barriers, pitfalls, whatever you fancy)
Buff multiple party members with appropriate stat buffs, plus circumstance buffs (truesight,invisibility,et cetera)
Buff the group warrior, or, in case there's no group warrior(and only then), act as one, either via self-buffs or sidekicks
Create effects that protect the whole party while resting(Alarm, Rope Trick, et cetera)


Remember, no cheese. And by cheese I mean anything on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook).



Hmm didn't even think of that. Since overgods are transcendental and omnipresent, you could technically use a tiny portion of the fabric of reality nearby the statue as the material component.

...Damn, that's cheesy.
I think you could have spared yourself much, much time if you had only stated in your first post that low and average levels also have a impact on tiers, and that's where Psions don't make a difference. I would have grasped the concept much more swiftly, and it would have been more effective than reciting the same rhetoric over and over, or making a list of things you know in advance Psions can't do as well. In the meantime, I doubt you've said anything I hadn't read several times already, and although I can see why you are right now, this is mainly thanks to the other people's posting.

Edit.


You also lose mobility as an object, so that hour per level is pretty much wasted unless you waste more PP trying to drag yourself. Unfortunately, objects don't have darkvision either, so you need to waste more PP for your short-duration solution to darkness.

The point being, even something as trivial as this takes too much effort from a psion. It doesn't make or break the T1 requirements, but it's symptomatic of the psion's powerscope issues.
I was more thinking about being in somebody else's pocket. Honestly, if that kind of adventure really were to happen at ECL5, I suppose I would just buy an item and be done with it, so that makes your point that Psions aren't Tier 1. This is typically the kind of thing I'm not too sad about, though, since I know it won't be a problem in higher levels.

[Gnaeus]

Erudites need defenseless casters or casters willing to share to learn new spells, which is dependent on the DM. Wizards need other casters or spells, which are both dependent on DM. Archivists can only add spells either from leveling or scrolls, which is dependent on DM.

What does that mean? If a DM just does not want you to act as a T1, he can just not give you spellbooks and scrolls, and then the Erudite is little better than a Psion, the Wizard is a weaker Sorcerer(considering the Sorcerer spell list has a ton of exclusive game-breaking spells), and the Archivist is a weaker Favored Soul.

Yeah, yeah, Spirit Shamans have a weaker spell list than a Wizard, but they can't be axed unless a DM spawns meteors at your head, and at that point, no character can do anything.

And Cleric/Druid are just straight better than all of the others.



You don't kinda understand the point, do you? If you can only do what a T1 can via cheese, it's not a T1, because any T1 can slay gods via cheese.

Spirit Shaman isn’t tier 1. It’s tier 2 in the recent retiering thread and rated too highly there.

[Luccan]

Spirit Shaman isn’t tier 1. It’s tier 2 in the recent retiering thread and rated too highly there.

What makes you say that? As the Druid answer to Sorcerer and Favored Soul, I'd say it does a pretty good job. Especially by being able to switch out spells (which admittedly if it couldn't, would probably make it a T3).

[MisterKaws]

Spirit Shaman isn’t tier 1. It’s tier 2 in the recent retiering thread and rated too highly there.

And that's where I(and quite a few others) disagree. It's pretty much the same chassis as a Druid, just with no sidekick or Wild Shape, which only lowers its power as a direct mano-a-mano bruiser.

[Crake]

Druids destroy the game from level 1 because the level 1 Animal Companion(particularly the wolf with its tripping) is as strong as an average level 2 Fighter. And on higher levels it keeps getting worse.

Having quite literally been playing a level 1 druid in one of my current games I can say this is patently false. Nevermind the fact that I'm riding my companion around (i'm playing a halfling) so I can directly guide my companion, unlike a normal druid who can give it basic commands that the companion will follow to the best of it's ability (not necessarily taking optimal paths, potentially provoking, whatever), but wolves deal pitiful damage, have moderate-at-best to hit, and the +1 to trip being vs the str or dex of the target makes it more often than not a failure. Riding dogs are able to at least deal somewhat decent-ish damage, but are still utterly incapable of overcoming DR (we have had at least 2 encounters so far with DR, one required silver, another required adamantine, and I was basically relegated to spamming heals while my companion assisted attack rolls). Claiming a wolf is on par with a level 2 fighter is just an outright lie. 13hp, 14AC, +3 to hit, 1d6+1 damage, you're just parroting what is essentially a meme on these boards, all of that compares to a level 1 fighter with 12 strength and a shortsword and improved trip (but without the +4 on the opposed check).

I gotta wonder how many people on these boards actually have played the scenarios they describe, especially level 1 play, considering how many people seem to hate it and start at higher levels like 3-5.

[RoboEmperor]

I was thinking about ashbound greenbound summoning rather than the animal companion.

[Cosi]

I don't understand what "Proof that Psions aren't Tier 1" is even supposed to look like. The Tiers are theoretical, not empirical. There is no way to "prove something is Tier One" or "prove something is not Tier One", because the definitions of Tier One are "JaronK thought it probably lined up with Tier One better than other tiers" and "the consensus view of a bunch of people on this forum was that it was around Tier One". Neither one of those is really "proof" of anything particularly meaningful. You could have a system where you could prove things about class power level (e.g. the SGT), but the Tiers are no that system.

[ben-zayb]

I was more thinking about being in somebody else's pocket. Honestly, if that kind of adventure really were to happen at ECL5, I suppose I would just buy an item and be done with it, so that makes your point that Psions aren't Tier 1. This is typically the kind of thing I'm not too sad about, though, since I know it won't be a problem in higher levels.That tends to be the solution for parties without a T1 PC. This type of challenge isn't the first and sure won't be the last of sorts that gets trivialized by T1s.

@Crake
Not sure about the rest of the playground, but marine/submarine quest is quite a staple in many of my RL playgroups as early as level 5, to the point of being cliche or expected. 3D fights are pretty fun once accessible at low levels.

[Gnaeus]

What makes you say that? As the Druid answer to Sorcerer and Favored Soul, I'd say it does a pretty good job. Especially by being able to switch out spells (which admittedly if it couldn't, would probably make it a T3).

It is a tier 3. It’s low spells known per day prevent it from using most of the best Druid buffs. And half the druid list is only really useful if you have a pet or can wildshape. Spell for spell the Druid list is worse than the sor/wiz list. S Shamans only get a fraction of THAT. And they don’t have enough spells recalled to make good use of those. The need to take generally useful spells in order to not be shut out of combats makes specialist spells a dangerous risk for them. As such, they are flat out worse than sorcerers.

And that's where I(and quite a few others) disagree. It's pretty much the same chassis as a Druid, just with no sidekick or Wild Shape, which only lowers its power as a direct mano-a-mano bruiser.

Hardly. Wildshape, particularly when combined with enhanced wildshape or feats like aberration wildshape, are a huge range of versatility for the Druid. Turning into a bear is impressive. But turning into a desmodu bat with 120 blingsight for the whole adventuring day or a will o whisp or that thing that pokes tentacles from the astral plane are moves no other T1 can easily match on level. And the Shaman doesn’t get any of that.

[Oko and Qailee]

@OP

I feel like you're misunderstanding things a little bit.

First off, how good Thrallherd is does not suddenly make Psion OP. Thrallherd is obviously an amazing PRC, but that's what it is, it's a PRC and not the Psion class itself. To say that Psion is tier 1 because Thrallherd gives it good minionmancy would be the same as me saying that Paladin is tier 1 because it gets into Ur-Priest pretty easily.

When looking at the strength of a class, the only factor you really judge is the class and reasonable assumptions of how it will be played.

Second, tier 1 isn't about "capable of breaking the game", it's about the power to break it and the versatility to essentially do it whenever you want. You keep bringing up about how Psion can break the game with a single spell... but so can the Sorcerer. The moment the Sorcerer learns Gate (just an example, there are many others), they can completely derail and destroy the entire campaign by RAW. The difference is that both the Psion and the Sorcerer need to "build" to break the game by actually selecting and knowing a game breaking spell. Even if they wont (which happens more often than you think, see how many fire-sorcerers are at first time tables), both of them will never be bad as a sub-optimal selection of spells makes both of them at minimum very strong.

The core difference between them, and the Cleric (for example because I love clerics), is that they can't just correct and break the game whenever they want. If you have a Cleric who keeps preparing bad spells and a psion/sorcerer who learned bad spells, none of them will be game breaking. However, if the Cleric player one day reads on google "oh I can break the BBEG's plans [derailing the DMs plans] instantly with planar binding" all they have to do is just say "I prepare those spells".

You're looking at psychic reformation thinking that it's the equivalent of preparing spells, but it's not because spell selection is inherent to the build. If a psion didn't learn psychic reformation they can't just show up at their next session and say "lol I have it now", but a Cleric and other Tier 1s can do so, whenever they want. A psion has to KNOW psychic reformation, but a Cleric can prepare substitute domain whenever they want, by default, without factoring in how you build the characters, the Cleric is inherently more versatile.

Sorcerers can build to bypass not having prepared spells too. They also have more flexibility in re-doing their build with Chaos Shuffle compared to psychic reformation, as Chaos Shuffle lets you re-do all your feats.

Is it trivially easy to make a build that is game breaking with Psion?
Yes, same with Sorcerer

But a Cleric just chooses whenever they want to, no build or planning required.

Btw, I'm sure someone is going to point out "but they [psion/sorcerer] can swap powers/spells at certain levels". Yes they can, but that's still character building and the DM (and by extension the BBEG) are getting a forewarning. Furthermore, you need to level up for that, whereas once again the Cleric just chooses to be broken whenever they want. There is just inherently way more versatility in prepared casting.

[Oko and Qailee]

A "thought" experiment that I think demonstrates the versatility difference between A tier 1 and Tier 2.

Lets say two players are tasked with building each others characters with the intent of sabotaging each others builds, one a Psion, the other a Cleric.

It is literally impossible, with the exception of poor stat allocation, to make a Cleric that can't break the game due to the nature of prepared spells. All the need to to is prepare Substitute Domain once and they're back to doing whatever they want.

It is possible to build a mediocre Psion.

[magic9mushroom]

Chiming in to say I think MisterKaws has a point about wizards and archivists.

Wizards: I do think the "standard case" is that wizards can get scrolls if they want to ("Anything having a price under [the community GP] limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical." - DMG p.137, "The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought and sold as any other commodity can be." - DMG p.142). On the other hand, access to other wizards' spellbooks is squarely in the hands of the DM, and buying enough scrolls to grab all the spells you want gets expensive, reducing how much other magic gear you can afford (I mean, adding up everything recommended in the "God's Tools" series gives about 300 spells; if you were to actually buy all of them it'd eat about half your level-20 WBL). Collegiate Wizard is actually a pretty decent feat for the simple reason that it gets you over 67,000 gp worth of spells if you have to buy scrolls.

Archivists: Now here's where the case as often presented and the practical case don't line up very well. Cleric and Druid list stuff is easy peasy. Adept is pretty logical as well (though they're more expensive than normal due to higher CL). Domains, on the other hand, don't show up on the random treasure table and are rarer in-story; a DM is perfectly within their rights to make you work for some of the obscure ones (Archivist does have that fluff about needing to find obscure spells in dungeons) and even to have to commission scrolls from the more common domains (same price, but more effort). Variant stuff like the Divine Bard simply doesn't exist if the DM doesn't want it to. And then you have the same issues with expense that Wizard has - to quote the Archivist Handbook, "No matter what method you use, expect to spend at least half of your WBL on getting new spells." I'll note that by RAW, Boccob's Blessed Book doesn't work for Archivists either.

Both classes are very good, certainly, but they're frequently overrated when comparing them to Cleric and Druid. There's the spells known issue, and also a significant disparity in chassis in the Wizard's case (remember all those Save-or-Die spells? Clerics can easily get over +25 on both Fort and Will by L20, while Wizards are more likely to be high-teens). So while I wouldn't necessarily go as far as MisterKaws's list (it does depend on DM, though), he's not bonkers the way Pippin appears to think.

[Pippin]

I don't understand what "Proof that Psions aren't Tier 1" is even supposed to look like. The Tiers are theoretical, not empirical. There is no way to "prove something is Tier One" or "prove something is not Tier One", because the definitions of Tier One are "JaronK thought it probably lined up with Tier One better than other tiers" and "the consensus view of a bunch of people on this forum was that it was around Tier One". Neither one of those is really "proof" of anything particularly meaningful. You could have a system where you could prove things about class power level (e.g. the SGT), but the Tiers are no that system.
I already guessed that "proof" alone would be so vague that people might not see what to say. This is why I detailed in the OP what "proof" I was looking for.

[Quertus]

Let me just illustrate something for you.

Cleric
He can cast Death Ward to make his party immune to SoDs and negative hp
He can cast Freedom of Movement to make his party immune to stuns and BFC
He can cast Investiture of the Orthon to give a nice sonic damage retribution buff and let players shutdown enemy's teleports
He can cast Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor to give infinite hp to his party mates
He can heal his party mates' ability damage, ability drain, diseases, curses, etc.
He can cast Resist Energy or Protection from Energy to protect his party members from energy damage.
He can cast Energy Immunity to make his party members immune to dragon breath attacks
He can cast True Seeing to help his party members overcome concealment and invisibility
He can cast Bulls' Strength/Cat's Grace/etc. to help his party members deal more damage.
He can cast Shield of Faith and Magic Vestment to boost his party member's AC.

Psion
Freedom of Movement: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack.
Body Adjustment: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Body Adaptation: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Energy Adaptation: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Metamorphosis: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack.
True Seeing: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Animal Affinity: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack
Inertial Armor: Range Personal, Target: You, can't help his party members with jack

Do these belong in the same tier?

Hmmm... Would a party of all psions feel their lack of ability to buff others?

Also, there are ways (like Ring of Spell Storing etc) to get around these range limitations (for long-duration buffs, at least)


That's precisely what thrallherd gives you. You can completely sacrifice your thrall, and all the believers you get without any penalty to your "leadership" score, which is why it's better than leadership, and because the thrall and believers are under your aboslute control (not a mind-affecting effect, so can't be suppressed either), and are replaced within 24 hours automatically.

I'd say that's pretty damn decent minonmancy.

My Illithid Savant ate Thrullherders specifically for this ability, to guaranteed have an army of willing lunches every 24h.

Never got around to making Simulacra of himself to feed even larger colonies, though.

[Bovine Colonel]

Is it just me or has OP not yet responded to a post about the difference between tier 1 and 2 being versatility rather than power?

[Pippin]

Is it just me or has OP not yet responded to a post about the difference between tier 1 and 2 being versatility rather than power?
It is just you.

[Malroth]

If your class has a way to fundamentally break an unprepared campaign premise with a single build you are either tier 1 or 2. A Psion can potentially rewite time itself if RAW is strictly followed so there is no danger of them falling in tier 3 or below. If they can with 48 hours, notice break the game in an entirely different way than they broke it the first time even if the enemies were built specificaly to counter their previously used power list, they cross from tier 2 to tier 1. Psions Can use reformation to become immune to their previous counters and could still abuse Fusion, Metaconcert, Astral Seed and Hypercognition even if Mad Minute shenanagins were countered or banned. Thus Psions are tier 1.

[Pippin]

The tier system does not measure power at high levels, it measures power among other things, and not necessarily at high levels. That's what I was missing. So Psions are ranked Tier 2.

If there were another type of rating that would sort classes solely based on power at high, non-epic levels, then Psions would definitely be among the best classes, which might not be true for all Tier 1 classes. Arguably Psions could be ranked the best class if TO is considered, but the tier system is not about TO.

[magic9mushroom]

Arguably Psions could be ranked the best class if TO is considered, but the tier system is not about TO.

Well, when you go full-TO then Wish/Gate loops render class much less relevant (Candle of Invocation is 8,400 gp and works for anyone) because you have infinite money and can just buy whatever.

[RoboEmperor]

Hmmm... Would a party of all psions feel their lack of ability to buff others?

Also, there are ways (like Ring of Spell Storing etc) to get around these range limitations (for long-duration buffs, at least)

Don't know about buffs but there are definite holes in their toolbox. Wizards can fill that hole with planar binding and the like. Psions are forever screwed without remove curse, remove disease, death ward, etc.

Their only hope is yelling "Psionic Magic Transparency" and then say "Bend Reality can replicate spells even though the power directly says "not spells" because psionic magic transparency!"

And most psionic buffs are 1 round/level. You can count the number of 1min/level or longer buffs on your fingers.

The ring of spell storing or that bracelet of spell sharing are way too expensive and is available at higher levels exclusively so trying to just get freedom of movement on a party member is gonna b etough.

[ben-zayb]

If there were another type of rating that would sort classes solely based on power at high, non-epic levels, then Psions would definitely be among the best classes, which might not be true for all Tier 1 classes. Arguably Psions could be ranked the best class if TO is considered, but the tier system is not about TO.
I'm pretty sure someone i.t.p. already did something similar to what you are looking for. It's likely made around the time bazillion attempts at retiering the classes were done.

[Crake]

I was thinking about ashbound greenbound summoning rather than the animal companion.

Both of those are incredibly campaign specific and require jumping through roleplay hoops to get access to. Also, greenbound summoning is nowhere near as amazing when you apply the +2 metamagic cost to it that the author intended, but was erroneously omitted from the book.

[MisterKaws]

I'm pretty sure someone i.t.p. already did something similar to what you are looking for. It's likely made around the time bazillion attempts at retiering the classes were done.

Yeah, Lord_Drako did it like 15 times, but he was just straight offensive and got 15 bans in a row. It was pretty entertaining watching the salt.

But it was pretty much the same as this, except for the swearing and insults thrown. He wanted to prove that, because his ultra-cheesy TO Sorcerer with 50 persisted buffs and mind-switched to a templated Protean could beat a normal ECL 20 Wizard, that meant a Sorcerer was a T1 class. Even though a Wizard optimized to the same degree could cast the same 50 persisted buffs, mind-switch to the same creature, and still have the better Wizard casting.

[ben-zayb]

Yeah, Lord_Drako did it like 15 times, but he was just straight offensive and got 15 bans in a row. It was pretty entertaining watching the salt.

But it was pretty much the same as this, except for the swearing and insults thrown. He wanted to prove that, because his ultra-cheesy TO Sorcerer with 50 persisted buffs and mind-switched to a templated Protean could beat a normal ECL 20 Wizard, that meant a Sorcerer was a T1 class. Even though a Wizard optimized to the same degree could cast the same 50 persisted buffs, mind-switch to the same creature, and still have the better Wizard casting.
I know those threads, but I'm talking about a different thing entirely. It was something like each class being tiered for multiple metrics, such as versatility floor/ceiling, power floor/ceiling, and maybe learning curve floor/ceiling? Can't remember the details.

It was actually a well-reasoned post unlike the bazillion sorcerer abs threads you were referring to. :smalltongue:

[Luccan]

I know those threads, but I'm talking about a different thing entirely. It was something like each class being tiered for multiple metrics, such as versatility floor/ceiling, power floor/ceiling, and maybe learning curve floor/ceiling? Can't remember the details.

It was actually a well-reasoned post unlike the bazillion sorcerer abs threads you were referring to. :smalltongue:

Only ones I recall were the eggynack/heavyfuel ones, the one that was just one person telling everybody how they should be tiered and ignoring other arguments, and the niche tiers. Was it the niche tiers?

[ben-zayb]

Only ones I recall were the eggynack/heavyfuel ones, the one that was just one person telling everybody how they should be tiered and ignoring other arguments, and the niche tiers. Was it the niche tiers?
Upon googling, you're partially correct. I was thinking of 2 different threads, and I was misremembering details. Those threads are personman's niche tier thread and bekeleven's optimization tier thread.

[Pippin]

Well, when you go full-TO then Wish/Gate loops render class much less relevant (Candle of Invocation is 8,400 gp and works for anyone) because you have infinite money and can just buy whatever.
Well if every PC has access to X, and X breaks the game, then X shouldn't exist. This might remove Candles of Invocation from society. Or it won't.

I said earlier that Psion could be considered the most powerful class, but now that I think of it, Erudites learn extra powers with quite a high XP cost, and it takes them 8 uninterrupted hours to do so. Assuming the Psion hired an ECL17 Erudite thrall, the thrall would come with 0 XP. Finding a way for the thrall to gain XP without DM fiat is quite a challenge.

[Florian]

Well if every PC has access to X, and X breaks the game, then X shouldn't exist.

No, it just means that both magic and WBL are quite powerful (and have the possibility to break the game).

Again, with the tier system, the only question is whether you have partially free and unlimited access to it, with the potential to change your load-out as you see fit.

Even a lowly Fighter could hoard some Candles and stuff them in his Bag of Holding, Type I, for Shenanigans later. Others can spent one limited resource (Spell/Power Known) to learn Gate, while still others have more or less free access to Gate and can prep it if they feel like it. These differences (WBL, Known, Free) are the basis of the Tier system, not the ability to break games.

[Luccan]

A single feat gives Wilder's access to Thrallherd. Are Wilder's T1 now? What about Ardents or Psychic Warriors?

[MisterKaws]

I know those threads, but I'm talking about a different thing entirely. It was something like each class being tiered for multiple metrics, such as versatility floor/ceiling, power floor/ceiling, and maybe learning curve floor/ceiling? Can't remember the details.

It was actually a well-reasoned post unlike the bazillion sorcerer abs threads you were referring to. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I remember that one. Got lost when the mods last cleaned everyone's subscription lists.

IIRC, it stated that there should be three different tiers, depending on levels of optimization. Level A for active optimizers who actually eat the books whole, level B for the initiates who at least know what's decent and what's bad, and level C, for complete laymen.

[Cosi]

But it was pretty much the same as this, except for the swearing and insults thrown. He wanted to prove that, because his ultra-cheesy TO Sorcerer with 50 persisted buffs and mind-switched to a templated Protean could beat a normal ECL 20 Wizard, that meant a Sorcerer was a T1 class. Even though a Wizard optimized to the same degree could cast the same 50 persisted buffs, mind-switch to the same creature, and still have the better Wizard casting.

His point wasn't that Sorcerers were Tier One, that point is actually pretty reasonable. The difference between Tier One and Tier Two is genuinely pretty dumb and arbitrary (see also: this thread). The problem (besides the obvious trolling), was that we was arguing for the indefensible position that Sorcerers were better than Wizards.

[Crake]

His point wasn't that Sorcerers were Tier One, that point is actually pretty reasonable. The difference between Tier One and Tier Two is genuinely pretty dumb and arbitrary (see also: this thread). The problem (besides the obvious trolling), was that we was arguing for the indefensible position that Sorcerers were better than Wizards.

Well, I mean, in the hypothetical scenario where both classes know all spells, but one can cast them all spontaneously... I would say that the sorcerer comes out on top for having more spell slots and built in spontaneous casting, as opposed to the wizard that needs to ban 3 schools to match the sorcerer, and burn a feat to have spontaneous casting, while also upping (or potentially lowering, if you play it that way, I don't) the casting time to a full round action.

But getting to that point requires quite frankly stupid levels of optimization that will likely never see play at a table ever.

[eggynack]

Having quite literally been playing a level 1 druid in one of my current games I can say this is patently false.
Yeah, that seemed pretty mistaken to me. A first level companion is like, maybe somewhat better than a first level monk. Once you get to second level, the major riding dog advantages (mostly centered around that extra HD) go away. I think it evens up some when you get to level three, though probably worse than the melee character, at least when the melee character is reasonably built. It's still ridiculous, of course. The animal companion hovers around same-level-melee competency during the portion of the game where melee competency is at a premium, and then there are also fancy druid spells flying around or whatever.


Both of those are incredibly campaign specific and require jumping through roleplay hoops to get access to.

Are there serious hoops regarding greenbound? I haven't gone too deep on the book's lore and such, but it doesn't seem all that crazy. It doesn't even seem all that campaign specific. You learned some long forgotten summoning method, which means that the feat is, by necessity, disconnected from the vast majority of things going on within the setting.


If there were another type of rating that would sort classes solely based on power at high, non-epic levels, then Psions would definitely be among the best classes, which might not be true for all Tier 1 classes.

Such a rating system is kinda weird because of the spell singularity. There's this group of spells, wish, gate, shapechange, maybe miracle, where any of them can substitute for basically any spell effect including each other. This causes there to be no meaningful differentiation between a particular set of classes, one that includes weirdos like healer and truenamer, and roughly infinite differentiation between classes inside and outside of that set.

[magic9mushroom]

as opposed to the wizard that needs to ban 3 schools to match the sorcerer

Eh, I'd have to say a normal specialist matches the sorcerer in spell slots. Taking as a completely random example 10th and 11th level, at 10th the Wiz has 5/5/5/4/4/3 to the Sor's 6/6/6/6/5/3 (Sor wins, except for 5th-level - the top level - where they're tied), but then at 11th the Wiz has 5/5/5/5/4/3/2 to the Sor's 6/6/6/6/6/4 (Wiz has 6th-level spells, unlocking an extra bonus spell if they started with 16+ Int).

[Crake]

Yeah, that seemed pretty mistaken to me. A first level companion is like, maybe somewhat better than a first level monk. Once you get to second level, the major riding dog advantages (mostly centered around that extra HD) go away. I think it evens up some when you get to level three, though probably worse than the melee character, at least when the melee character is reasonably built. It's still ridiculous, of course. The animal companion hovers around same-level-melee competency during the portion of the game where melee competency is at a premium, and then there are also fancy druid spells flying around or whatever.

I'm glad the forum-approved druid master agrees with me there :smalltongue:


Are there serious hoops regarding greenbound? I haven't gone too deep on the book's lore and such, but it doesn't seem all that crazy. It doesn't even seem all that campaign specific. You learned some long forgotten summoning method, which means that the feat is, by necessity, disconnected from the vast majority of things going on within the setting.

Well, learning some long forgotten summoning method does require that you actually go out of your way to go and learn that summoning method, which happens to be detailed in the ancient feats section in lost empire of faerun where greenbound summoning can be found. Going and learning things like that would be a short adventure in and of itself, and definitely not something you should be expecting to start off with at level 1 alongside ashbound like robo was suggesting. Hell, those two feats are technically mutually exclusive, coming from completely different campaign settings.


Eh, I'd have to say a normal specialist matches the sorcerer in spell slots. Taking as a completely random example 10th and 11th level, at 10th the Wiz has 5/5/5/4/4/3 to the Sor's 6/6/6/6/5/3 (Sor wins, except for 5th-level - the top level - where they're tied), but then at 11th the Wiz has 5/5/5/5/4/3/2 to the Sor's 6/6/6/6/6/4 (Wiz has 6th-level spells, unlocking an extra bonus spell if they started with 16+ Int).

Obviously the wizard wins out at odd levels below 18 because of the extra level of spells, but if we're talking about a hypothetical wizard/sorc that knows all spells, they will, by necessity, be both 9th level casters, so at 18+ the sorc comes ahead in spells/day.

[Florian]

Gotta agree with Crake on this.

Unless you absolutely ignore fluff _and_ the entry explanation of the feats section of a book (not generally replicated in free only sources), both are "Quest Rewards" and extremely tied to their respective campaign worlds.

(And yes, only when you compare the CR1 Fighter NPC to a companion... ah, no matter).