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View Full Version : divine metacheese?codzila?someone please explain



kemmotar
2007-10-01, 05:12 PM
Well nuff said...can someone explain to me divine metacheese...i remember its using feats that expend turn attempts in connection with nightsticks in particular...

Well can i get some examples?

RTGoodman
2007-10-01, 05:22 PM
The basic gist is that, as a Cleric (a.k.a. one-half of the nickname CoDzilla), you take whatever feats you need to get Persistent Spell and then take Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell).

From there, you can burn Turn Undead uses to make spells that have certain casting times last hours per casting (I think some of the popular ones are Divine Power or Righteous Might or something like that), and thus one casting keeps them going all day.

The item called a "Nightstick" gives you extra Turn attempts for a very cheap cost, and people use it to DMM a lot of spells that normally wouldn't be able to be Persisted (specifically, because DMM says that the spells don't use up a higher level slot, so you can Persist spells that would be too high of a level to normally Persist).

Jasdoif
2007-10-01, 05:27 PM
Divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) is a popular one to persist. You get +6 Strength, BAB equal to your caster level and 1 temporary hit point per caster level. Basically you become a fighter with +6 Strength, except you have spells instead of bonus feats, and a better Will save.

Add in divine favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm) and/or righteous might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm), and it's even better.

kemmotar
2007-10-01, 05:39 PM
how about divine metamagic for heighten spell?You could theoretically increase the level of the spell as long as u have turn attempts...

Btw what book is nighsticks from?

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 05:53 PM
Sure, you could burn turn attempts to Heighten spells... but you have much better things to spend the Divine Metamagic feat on. Do it if you have a spare feat, I guess...

UglyPanda
2007-10-01, 06:03 PM
Nightsticks are from Libris Mortis, I believe. The item apparently seemed reasonable to the developers as the book was about undead-heavy campaigns.

Since Righteous Might is has a size bonus and divine power is an enhancement bonus, I think they stack, giving you a +10 to strength if you can get both of them off.

kemmotar
2007-10-01, 06:15 PM
Well...with heighten you could probably affect any creature with any spell...thus imagine a multiple heightened disintigrate for partial cheese..thus you aren't taking full advantage of it...

Sure persistent spell seems to be much more powerful if used correctly...

Though an evil cleric focusing in DMM and heighten spell would be quite strong too:D

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 06:31 PM
Heighten Spell only increases the save DC (very slightly) and makes spells able to breach a Globe of Invulnerability... Heighten Spell isn't a good use of Divine Metamagic.

Shadowcraft Mages love Heighten Spell. Not many other casters really need it.

Jasdoif
2007-10-01, 06:34 PM
And Heighten Spell only goes up to 9th level anyway.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 06:36 PM
And Heighten Spell only goes up to 9th level anyway.

Nope. It goes up as high as you can get it. Spell levels continue up to infinity, there just aren't any actual spells in any of the levels higher than nine.

Saph
2007-10-01, 06:59 PM
Nope. It goes up as high as you can get it. Spell levels continue up to infinity, there just aren't any actual spells in any of the levels higher than nine.

Not quite right. Heighten Spell can only raise a spell to level 9. However, the Epic feat Improved Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell) lets you raise a spell to whatever nigh-silly level you like.

- Saph

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 07:07 PM
Not quite right. Heighten Spell can only raise a spell to level 9. However, the Epic feat Improved Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell) lets you raise a spell to whatever nigh-silly level you like.

- Saph

...Well that's just silly.

Wait, does that mean the Shadowcraft Mage Earth Spell 10th-level-for-the-price-of-9th-level 120% real spells don't work?

Blast.

Douglas
2007-10-01, 08:47 PM
No, the Shadowcraft Mage only uses Heighten to get a spell up to 9th level. That final 1-level boost to make it 10th level comes from another feat, Earth something from Races of Stone I think.

Edit: Duh, you mentioned it yourself. Earth Spell.

Draz74
2007-10-01, 10:49 PM
Shadowcraft Mages love Heighten Spell. Not many other casters really need it.

I actually find it invaluable for any Batman-caster who has a limited number of Spells Known (e.g. Sorcerers). If a Sorcerer takes Heighten Spell, a number of his low-level save-or-suck spells suddenly don't become obsolete as he gets into higher levels.

Heightened Grease or Heightened Stinking Cloud are scary for monsters at almost any level. And the Sorcerer can now spend his higher-level Spells Known adding more variety to his repertoire instead of more cutting-edge save-or-suck.

kemmotar
2007-10-01, 11:00 PM
But what would be the point of having ridiculously high str when you dont have the feats for it nor the HP...a melee cleric has a lot of MAD...wis, str, cha, con...How would you make it work?

If you dont have high str to begin with then you wont cut it as an attacker and with low con you wont make much of a tank...Sure you can heal but you wont be able to attack and healing goes up to 52 hp until the heal spell...

Ted_Stryker
2007-10-01, 11:48 PM
Well...with heighten you could probably affect any creature with any spell...thus imagine a multiple heightened disintigrate for partial cheese..thus you aren't taking full advantage of it...
Divine metamagic doesn't work on arcane spells!

You could get Disintegrate as a domain spell, and then do this trick once per day, but that doesn't seem worth it. If you want to do damage, a self-buffing melee cleric with 24-hour buffs is going to be a lot more efficient than a cleric that heightens a few spells by a few levels every day.

leperkhaun
2007-10-02, 12:00 AM
But what would be the point of having ridiculously high str when you dont have the feats for it nor the HP...a melee cleric has a lot of MAD...wis, str, cha, con...How would you make it work?

If you dont have high str to begin with then you wont cut it as an attacker and with low con you wont make much of a tank...Sure you can heal but you wont be able to attack and healing goes up to 52 hp until the heal spell...

Honestly its not that hard. You will probably be in fullplate so you only need a 12 dex. After that its just WIS and CON with cha as a third spot. The extra turning feat will make up a low cha score.

A cleric with a 10 str can get a 16 str (+3 bonus) with just divine power (i think thats the name), with righteous might you can bump that up to a 24 str (+7 bonus) which is respectable. All the while getting DR 15/good or evil (depending on alignment), a total +3 (+4 for nat armor, -1 for size) bonus to armor, and your weapon grows one size.

At 7th level you can persist divine power, thus giving enough str to melee and the BAB to melee, all the while bieng able to cast spells.

Edit: Righteous might adds a +8 size bonus to str not a +4. for a total of +14 to str.

Dausuul
2007-10-02, 12:14 AM
Honestly its not that hard. You will probably be in fullplate so you only need a 12 dex. After that its just WIS and CON with cha as a third spot. The extra turning feat will make up a low cha score.

A cleric with a 10 str can get a 16 str (+3 bonus) with just divine power (i think thats the name), with righteous might you can bump that up to a 20 str (+5 bonus) which is respectable.

At 7th level you can persist divine power, thus giving enough str to melee and the BAB to melee, all the while bieng able to cast spells.

Do note, however, that the +6 Strength from divine power is an enhancement bonus and therefore does not stack with belts of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power. I would definitely put at least 12 in your natural Strength if you're going this route, and preferably 14.

leperkhaun
2007-10-02, 12:22 AM
Do note, however, that the +6 Strength from divine power is an enhancement bonus and therefore does not stack with belts of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power. I would definitely put at least 12 in your natural Strength if you're going this route, and preferably 14.

True, however the main thing to remember is that your cleric now has a 24 str from a BASE of 10, and doesnt need to spend gold on items that add str.

Jasdoif
2007-10-02, 12:26 AM
Do note, however, that the +6 Strength from divine power is an enhancement bonus and therefore does not stack with belts of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power.But why waste an item slot, if you're going to be persisting divine power and thus have its +6 enhancement bonus anyway?

Douglas
2007-10-02, 12:26 AM
Edit: Righteous might adds a +8 size bonus to str not a +4. for a total of +14 to str.
That got nerfed by errata. The bonuses to strength, con, and natural armor were all cut in half, and the DR is in multiples of 3 instead of 5, capping at DR 9. And despite all of this it's still a powerful spell.

Dausuul
2007-10-02, 12:47 AM
But why waste an item slot, if you're going to be persisting divine power and thus have its +6 enhancement bonus anyway?

Obviously you wouldn't. The point is that the divine power bonus is taking the place of the Strength-boosting item a melee warrior would normally use; it's not stacking with such an item. Since Strength boosters are one of the cheapest and most effective ways to improve a melee warrior's performance, this is an important distinction.

greenknight
2007-10-02, 03:00 AM
But what would be the point of having ridiculously high str when you dont have the feats for it nor the HP...a melee cleric has a lot of MAD...wis, str, cha, con...How would you make it work?

If you're willing to use Divine Metacheese, then you'd probably be willing to abuse Polymorph Any Object as well. With that, you can gain a permanent polymorph to War Troll (from MM3), or if you have 10 levels in Contemplative (from Complete Divine), you could use a Horned Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon) instead. Add in a DMM Persisted Bite of the Werebear (from Spell Compendium, cast via a Miracle) and the character's Strength score would be in the mid 40's - and could get to 55 or more with other buffs. You wouldn't need a whole lot of Int or Cha (since you're relying on Nightsticks for turn attempts), so that means the only scores you really need to worry much about are Constitution (for hitpoints) and Wisdom.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-02, 04:07 AM
I actually find it invaluable for any Batman-caster who has a limited number of Spells Known (e.g. Sorcerers).
Frankly I'm not sure this is worth the full round action.

warmachine
2007-10-02, 09:22 AM
Here (http://www.campaign-blog.com/view.php?id=5041)'s an example, which I used to shock some DMs. I find it absolutely, frikkin' hilarious but then I'm sick. I just love that the character looks like a large, flying angel, has hideous stats and heals and buffs companions just by being near them. It's 25 point buy, average hit dice and uses the wealth-by-level guideline. All rules legal.

Dausuul
2007-10-02, 09:33 AM
Frankly I'm not sure this is worth the full round action.

In my experience, that's a relatively minor concern for a caster. Most of the time you're not going to move more than a 5-foot step anyhow; giving up a move action for a higher save DC is well worth it.

kemmotar
2007-10-02, 04:51 PM
Well indeed instead of getting high physical scores you could just poly yourself to something with them, as per our druid friends, as long as you can still cast it should be fine, then persisting str enhancing spells for extra effect...probably righteous might and divine power, thus you need 18 turn attempts...

Also i think goliath greathammer might be the best weapon for such a char. Its 2h with 1d12 dmg at M size and 3d6 at L size. Its crit is 20 X4...You wont be attacking too many times to take advantage of a better crit chance so i don't think it's needed...however, whenever you do actually crit...it's gonna be really painful!

Though this only works at high levels with polymorph any object...Is there another divine spell of lower level in any other books to make this combo possible?

Chronos
2007-10-02, 05:54 PM
In my experience, that's a relatively minor concern for a caster. Most of the time you're not going to move more than a 5-foot step anyhow; giving up a move action for a higher save DC is well worth it.It also gives your opponents a real chance to disrupt your spellcasting. With a standard-action cast, you only need to worry about readied actions (which are a waste on your opponent's part) or attacks of opportunity (which you can easily eliminate via casting on the defensive). But with a full-round cast, any attack made against you before the start of the next turn can disrupt your casting, and there are attack options which can even overwhelm your Concentration check.

Jasdoif
2007-10-02, 05:56 PM
But with a full-round cast, any attack made against you before the start of the next turn can disrupt your casting, and there are attack options which can even overwhelm your Concentration check.Applying metamagic spontaneously to a standard-action spell increases it to a full-round action, not a one-round action.


Casting a Metamagic Spell

Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spellís normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isnít the same as a spell with a 1-round casting timeóthe spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you arenít required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn.

Chronos
2007-10-02, 08:15 PM
Ah, yes, of course you're right. Silly me to think that a full-round action takes 1 round to complete.:smalltongue:

Jasdoif
2007-10-02, 08:36 PM
Ah, yes, of course you're right. Silly me to think that a full-round action takes 1 round to complete.:smalltongue:They should've been called double-actions instead of full-round actions.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-10-02, 08:42 PM
Yummm. . . Cheese. . .

While on the subject of cheese, has anyone actually pitted an Initiate of the Sevenfold Gouda against a party? I mean one that has been all decked out with appropriate levels and stuff.

Collin152
2007-10-02, 08:54 PM
OMG!
Reading htis actually made me taste cheese! Like, for real!
Does fortune cookie normally flavor-shift lke that?

kemmotar
2007-10-02, 08:58 PM
correctly built a full initiate of the sevenfold veil, i dont think that a party could defeat them easily, if at all...with arcane spellsurge and wings of cover i really dont think anything cheeseless could ever defeat them...a friend of mine combines it with fatespinner and uses suck or save spells...it's the ultimate defensive PrC...pity you can't take it with codzila...:smalltongue:

Though at lower levels when they dont have all the veils they aren't as strong opponents..A high save monk could go through the veils...though damage output might not be enough before the initiate fights back...Though i do think that a monk stands quite a chance...