[3.5] Fractional Saves, a Curse in Disguise?

[Gen Melchett]

I frequently see fractional saves pitched as a way to keep multiclassing characters bad saves from being pitifully low. This is the case for a build like: Bbn 2, Ftr 2, Rgr 2, Rog 2 which would have base saves of +9/+6/+0 using the core rules, but with fractional saves (assuming we are using the house rule of only getting +2 to a save once) would have +5/+5/+2 (rounded down from +5.66/+5.33/+2.66). Is this really beneficial to this character though?

Is having this still laughably low will save at level 8 worth the significant penalty to fortitude and slight penalty to reflex? I would argue that this build has essentially accepted that it will not make the majority of will saves thrown at it. If I were playing it (never would) I would make it clear to my party members that if they wanted to benefit from my smashing talents, they would need to agree to remove status effects from me pretty frequently. Giving me a +2.66 bonus to my will save at the cost of a -3.33 penalty to my best save and -.66 penalty to my second best save wouldn’t be welcome.

This is obviously an extreme example, but the outcome is similar in many other more reasonable builds. Going through my builds folder and comparing saves calculated with the two methods consistently yields less desirable saves when using the fractional save rules.
Keep in mind this is only the case when using the house rule of gaining a +2 bonus from one level only once per save. Neglecting this rule obviously yields superior saves as compared to the core method. Somewhat unrelatedly, people who use fractional saves usually also use fractional base attack bonus. This always helps multiclass characters, but usually for martial characters it’s a pretty minimal boost.

With that said, who uses fractional saves and do you use the house rule or not?

[Segev]

Fractional saves are how I’ve always seen it played, and that house rule is a new one on me. Fractional saves are pure good for the multi-class character. That house eule is pretty lousy, though. The house rule is the only “curse” here.

[Hungrygnome]

That house rule is based on the PATHFINDER version of Fractional Saves, where the numbers are all different, and if ANY class has it as a good save, you get +2. The standard rules for fractional saves would have a Barb 2 / fighter 2 / ranger 2 / rogue 2 as having FORT +9, REF +6, WILL +2 ( its 2/3 x 4 = 8/3 which is +2)

SO its the house rule based on different chart progression that is making it suck, not the fractional saves rules.

Page 73 of Unearthed Arcana is the proper chart.

[Gen Melchett]

Thank you both for clarifying that's good to hear! I was worried I was getting save greedy.
Has anyone had problems with character balance between multiclass and single class characters because of fractional saves and BAB?

[Mr Adventurer]

"If I use rule A that makes multiclass saves higher, and rule B that makes multiclass saves lower, some of my multiclass saves are lower! Is rule A to blame?!"

[Blue Jay]

With that said, who uses fractional saves and do you use the house rule or not?

I don't remember playing in a game without the fractional bonuses: it's so much better for the players, and so much easier to code into my spreadsheet, that it seems completely worth it every time. And I usually don't take away the extra +2's (though I did for my current E6 game).

But, the house rule that takes away the +2's isn't really specific to the fractional variant, because the +2 exists whether or not you're using fractional saves. It's just that, if you're not using fractionals, you're probably not paying enough attention to the math to apply that kind of correction.

[Gen Melchett]

That's a lot of salt haha, the question was more to get a poll of how many people use the rule (do you?). Other threads suggest the omission of the house rule was an oversight and say using both fractional saves and the house rule is the only way to go unless you're lazy or math impaired.

[Hungrygnome]

Multiclassing VS Single Class Saves is almost never an issue, except in the case of 3 or 4 + classes that get various good saves. Heavy Multiclassing then begins to inflate the good saves out of proportion. If its BASE Classes, well that's okay.. they are diluting their power by mulitclassing so heavily. If its PRESTIGE classes, generally they are doing it in a way which is inflating their power, rather than lowering it, and that can become an issue when you have hyper saves + hyper offense from prestige classes.

Its relative to the power level of the campaign, ultimately, along with being relative to the particular combination.

[Eladrinblade]

It's the other way around: keeping multiclass characters from having ridiculously high saves (while making sure their low ones are where they should be).

[Mr Adventurer]

We typically use fractional saves as written in Unearthed Arcana. It's only been a benefit as far as we can tell, allowing more builds to reflect character concepts without crippling poorer save progressions.

Freak high save stacking isn't a function of fractional save rules, it's a normal part of multiclassing, so we have seen characters have the odd very high save. However, it typically doesn't matter much.

We also have been using default array or 28 point buy, too, which gives much lower characteristics than many here are used to, and that affects saving throws a lot as well.

[Elkad]

It's the other way around: keeping multiclass characters from having ridiculously high saves (while making sure their low ones are where they should be).

This.

I only allow the +2 once. Even if you aren't doing fractional.
I do the same with Turning. You get one pool of turning. If you pickup Turn Elementals and Rebuke Plants, it just expands your targets (and effect), not your uses.

[Gen Melchett]

Only allowing the +2 once is really the crux of the question. I'm on the fence about how fair it is. It seems to me that it really hurts martial characters saves and that in turn really helps casters. Helping casters is bad, they bully the other classes :smallmad:

Like with nearly everything, "it depends on the campaign and the power level of the other players" is really the best answer. I'm the only optimizer in my group, but tend to build more for defense so I can spend what little playtime I have conscious, not on fire and not attacking my allies. In general I like multiclassing and think it should be powerful so players who know less about the rules have incentive to learn good character creation.

[Hungrygnome]

It essentially only becomes an issue if people start optimizing builds, because so many involve 4 to 6 classes ( or more in some cases ). In a low to Mid Optimized group, just use them exactly as written in Unearthed Arcana.

[Kaleph]

I only allow the +2 bonus once, since I believe it's not only the most balanced way, but also the one that personally makes more sense: if you are a fighter/wizard, at the end your fort and will saves will be somewhere in between those of a pure fighter and of a pure wizard. It's just my personal taste, anyhow.

I normally combine this houserule with the fractional BAB/ST, since it looks like the "precise" method as it should have been from the beginning, whilst the one in the PHB seems more like an approximation to avoid too much complexity for the new players (or those who don't like math in general).

In any case I don't like ST being, at Level 20, higher than 12 or lower than 6; those numbers are centered on a virtual average of 9, which is the maximum spell level - so on average the DC modifier and the ST modifier are equal.