So I've been hit with Feeblemind...

[Silicon42]

In our current campaign, we are level 8 and I am playing a female kobold Shadow Sorc 1/Blade Pact Hexblade 7 named Pekoe. In this last session we ended up fighting a Sibriex. We all somehow manage to survive (barely) and defeat it with half the party nearly dying, myself included. One party member has been hit by its Warp ability, but we remember that we have a potion that can deal with this, and two party members (one being me) have been hit with Feeblemind, although the other member managed to save because we have a home-brewed hero point system and he had some left.

This leaves our dear Pekoe, who also serves as the party cook, with an Int and Cha score of 1, no ability to speak or understand language, and makes her incapable of casting spells for the next month of in game time or until the party can find someone with one of the appropriate spells to get rid of it. On the positive side of this she is a melee focused Hexblade, so this only cuts combat potential by about half rather than 100%. Pekoe is built as a crit-farming melee build and just picked up Eldritch Smite for her most recent Invocation, so she still has a way to spend her spell slots. She uses a quarterstaff, the Polearm Master feat, the Thirsting Blade invocation, and Pack Tactics to attempt to rack up crits. However, now that she has been poo-brained, she has to rely on physical stats to attack. This wouldn't be too bad if she had decent Str, but unfortunately she has 9 Str. She does however, have 14 Dex.

So how should I play this, both mechanically and RP wise? I was thinking mechanically, that if the other PCs can convince her to change her weapon out for a finesse weapon somehow, she'll go along with that. It would be a difference of +3 to attack and damage, which might be worth the loss of the benefits of PAM, but runs counter to the intent of the build. Maybe they can also convince her to use a shield since she won't be able to cast the spell version anymore. RP wise, I'm thinking maybe she acts somewhere between a poorly trained dog and some kind of automaton, still doing physical tasks that she's used to like cooking if prompted, so long as someone else is there to supervise and hand her the right ingredients, and fight relatively normally, with an otherwise dog-like demeanor.

So what do you think? Ideas? Criticisms? Stories of your own?

[8wGremlin]

What resources do you have?
What are the other characters?
What Magic items do you have, or can get?

the more information we have the more we can help?
does your party have gauntlets of ogre power or similar, could you get hold of them, would they be easier to find than, say the cure?

[Daghoulish]

How close are you to leveling? At level 9 a druid/cleric/bard can grab greater restoration and remove feeblemind, so if you have one of those in the party they could heal you. Otherwise you might need to pay some clergy or druidic circle to help you out.

[farrenj]

How are you typing this if you've been hit with Feeblemind? It prevents communication through language.

[Silicon42]

Some updates for those asking what resources we have and other details. We are leveling by how much the party accomplishes (I can't remember the appropriate word for that at the moment) Edit: Milestones rather than XP and we are doing it fairly slowly and only recently just leveled up to level 8, so no level up in the immediate future. This helps our DM pace the story out more and balance encounters to our semi-OP party without having to do tons of fiddly math. We don't currently have any major stat boosting items as far as I know because in the setting they are extremely rare and expensive so no dice there unless the party is feeling extremely spendy or want to draw the effects of this out for comedic purposes. We do not have a cleric or druid in the party either. Fixing the problem will probably become a side quest to find someone who knows how, or if my DM is feeling sorry for me, he'll throw an NPC with the solution at us, but I'd rather earn it. The fix itself will probably just be one of the spells that fixes it, but I'm more interested in how I should play in the meantime.

[DMThac0]

This is one of those times where you can go ham and not gain the ire of the table!

You're a Kobold, a civilized one at that, who now isn't. Fall back on the instincts of a Kobold, what is the heritage of that race? I'd start to play it as a regression to base desires, needs, wants, reactions, etc. The abilities that do not require creative thinking will happen since you don't have to consider how to use them, just choose to use them or not. You'll know your party is safe, but when you get to town, that's a lot of strangeness that you'll have to deal with. Eat, sleep, survive, and keep your pack close, simple functions that you can work off of.

[Sparky McDibben]

Maybe you've already addressed this and I just missed it, but is taking some downtime an option? I think you get a saving throw every 30 days, right?

[Silicon42]

Maybe you've already addressed this and I just missed it, but is taking some downtime an option? I think you get a saving throw every 30 days, right?

We are currently facing down what looks like it's going to be a gauntlet of various demons that have taken over one of the other PC's home town/kingdom's capitol and the nearest town is a 3 day hike back across the desert, so it's not likely that we'll be taking significant downtime in the immediate future. This would also depend on the rest of the party agreeing to take downtime which, since I'm mostly only moderately inconvenienced, probably isn't worth it with all the other stuff the party has to or wants to do.

On top of that, I'm kinda warming to the idea of just rolling with it and RPing it, as much as I was frustrated with it initially. Had this happened to our other caster, he would be completely incapable of doing anything about it, but I can work around it so I want to try to do so.


This is one of those times where you can go ham and not gain the ire of the table!

You're a Kobold, a civilized one at that, who now isn't. Fall back on the instincts of a Kobold, what is the heritage of that race? I'd start to play it as a regression to base desires, needs, wants, reactions, etc. The abilities that do not require creative thinking will happen since you don't have to consider how to use them, just choose to use them or not. You'll know your party is safe, but when you get to town, that's a lot of strangeness that you'll have to deal with. Eat, sleep, survive, and keep your pack close, simple functions that you can work off of.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about! Maybe not exactly this but stuff in this vein. I mentioned in the OP that I thought it would be interesting to RP her something like a dog, so she might get into stuff she's not supposed to or try eating/chewing on things she shouldn't and generally emote something like a dog would. The spell says it breaks your intellect and ego, but it doesn't specify in what way, so it might even be fitting.

[Damon_Tor]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about! Maybe not exactly this but stuff in this vein. I mentioned in the OP that I thought it would be interesting to RP her something like a dog, so she might get into stuff she's not supposed to or try eating/chewing on things she shouldn't and generally emote something like a dog would. The spell says it breaks your intellect and ego, but it doesn't specify in what way, so it might even be fitting.

As a note, int 1 is significantly lower than a dog: dogs and most other "trainable" or otherwise cunning animals have int 3, while animals too dumb to train meaningfully are int 2. Int 1 is insect-tier. You probably can't learn. You might do something painful and then do it again moments later, like a moth landing on a lightbulb, burning its feet, then landing on it again and again. Your party would do well to keep you away from cooking food.

[Silicon42]

As a note, int 1 is significantly lower than a dog: dogs and most other "trainable" or otherwise cunning animals have int 3, while animals too dumb to train meaningfully are int 2. Int 1 is insect-tier. You probably can't learn. You might do something painful and then do it again moments later, like a moth landing on a lightbulb, burning its feet, then landing on it again and again. Your party would do well to keep you away from cooking food.

Hmm, that is true. I'll have to talk to my DM about it along with some other details of what I should and shouldn't be able to do. I only just realized that changing my pact weapon requires a "ritual" as the flavor text put it, meaning I might just be stuck with my current quarterstaff and making me incapable of switching to a finesse weapon. Of course it could be fluffed as my patron taking pity on me, but I don't feel particularly strongly either way on that matter so we'll see.

[PhantomSoul]

Hmm, that is true. I'll have to talk to my DM about it along with some other details of what I should and shouldn't be able to do. I only just realized that changing my pact weapon requires a "ritual" as the flavor text put it, meaning I might just be stuck with my current quarterstaff and making me incapable of switching to a finesse weapon. Of course it could be fluffed as my patron taking pity on me, but I don't feel particularly strongly either way on that matter so we'll see.

Only attacking with an oversized stick (if it's a normal quarterstaff [1]) seems perfect for RP flavour, especially if you should know you would be better at doing other things. Maybe even embrace the Dunning-Kruger and -- communicated non-verball -- demonstrate your supreme confidence in yourself and your knowledge. (After all, you are a Great Kobold, none are above you.)

_____________
EDIT:
[1] Yes, assuming that at this point it's not a normal quarterstaff, of course haha

[Silicon42]

Only attacking with an oversized stick (if it's a normal quarterstaff [1]) seems perfect for RP flavour, especially if you should know you would be better at doing other things. Maybe even embrace the Dunning-Kruger and -- communicated non-verball -- demonstrate your supreme confidence in yourself and your knowledge. (After all, you are a Great Kobold, none are above you.)

_____________
EDIT:
[1] Yes, assuming that at this point it's not a normal quarterstaff, of course haha

I mean, it's a Staff of Adornment, so it's basically a normal quarterstaff, just under the additional effects of being a Blade Pact Hexblade's main weapon and the invocations that I have for it.

For some context, Pekoe was banished from her pack for being a stupidly brave screwup and only survived because she was taken in by a gold dragon whom would go on to raise and mentor her. She is a bit oblivious and doesn't fully realize a lot of the implications or context of what happened to her. If you can't tell, she's Lawful Good.

[Kane0]

You may be interested in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6u0VBqNBQ8). It would be interesting to try and roleplay a lack of object permanence.

[Keravath]

There are two attitudes towards stats that appear most prevalent.

1) Stats guide and inform what the character can actually choose to do. High stats make you good at things related to the stat and low stats make you bad at it. This extends to role playing and goes beyond the simple mechanics.

2) Stats are irrelevant until you mechanically have to make a roll in the game. All a 1 intelligence means is that you have a -5 on intelligence based checks. However rolling a 20 would still succeed on a DC15 task.

You have to decide which camp you are in and which camp the DM is in.

For example, if your character has an INT of 1 which is comparable to insects like spiders and is significantly lower than dogs or cats.

1) From the perspective of case 1 you are basically a vegetable and probably need help changing your diaper. It is ridiculous to assume that you even know what a weapon is or that you could possibly wield one. You can't communicate, you can't understand what anyone tries to tell you, you can't tell damgerous actions from safe ones, you might be able to recognize friends but you wouldn't have a clue about enemies. You could never coordinate attacks and if someone hurt you, you might be as likely to run away and hide as anything else. It is unlikely that you can feed yourself assuming you can even recognize what food is. Give some thought to the creatures with a comparable INT score of 1 then imagine your character with the mental capability of this level of creature. You basically don't have a PC anymore and until the feeblemind is removed the character is basically useless.

2) However, from the mechanical point of view, players with this viewpoint say "Hey, I can do whatever I want until I need to make a skill check ... and then I only need to put a -5 on the int and cha die rolls". In this camp, their dex is still 14 and they swing their weapons, unless the DM asks for a skill check they just play as they always would. Personally, this makes no sense to me but does work mechanically and the implementation will vary from table to table.

However, what is the DC to open a door or feed yourself? The main problem is that the skill modifiers are linear -5 to +5 while a spider with an int of 1 is a far less intelligent that a dog with an int of 3 or 4, an ape with an int of 6 or a human with 8 to 12 on average. The intelligence range is more like exponential than linear.

The bottom line is that the range of options goes from affected but still functional to completely non-functional (force fed and diaper wearing) and it all depends on whether you and the DM fall into camp 1 or camp 2 and whether you agree on the appropriate interpretation :)


"On a failed save, the creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1. The creature can't cast spells, activate magic items, understand language, or communicate in any intelligible way. The creature can, however, identify its friends, follow them, and even protect them. At the end of every 30 days, the creature can repeat its saving throw against this spell. If it succeeds on its saving throw, the spell ends. The spell can also be ended by greater restoration, heal, or wish."

So the spell explicitly lets the character identify their friends, follow them and even protect them. However, you are unable to understand language or any form of communication and with an int of 1 you can probably not understand anything going on around you so you probably will not be able to act to protect your friends until after they are actually hit but that would be a DM call.

[Silicon42]

There are two attitudes towards stats that appear most prevalent...

Those are probably more of two ends of a spectrum. Looking at this from an intention of the game's developers perspective, it would be a terrible idea to have a PC with zero agency for possibly up to an in game month and likely at least a couple full sessions if played appropriately. The players affected are likely attached to their characters, I for one am, and they aren't going to want to give them up when they see that there is a chance to fix it. This means that if it were treated as part of the first camp, the player would be sitting there for several sessions having no fun at all and not getting to interact with their fellow players in any meaningful way, which makes no sense in what is supposed to be a fun game. If you treat it as part of the second camp, it makes almost no sense relative to the flavor text. This spell is supposed to be practically the next step down from an instant death spell and it's supposed to cripple a character, not just severely inconvenience them in a couple areas.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the stats represent generalizations of given traits, so even if the scores are the same as that of a bug, it doesn't mean that the character is necessarily a vegetable. The numbers don't correlate perfectly linearly and though the statblock of, for example, a dog might have 3 Int, there might be variations of how smart a dog acts from one dog to another or in one situation versus another. Skills somewhat make up for that generalization, but they aren't perfect and they don't cover absolutely everything necessarily. I can't think of any examples at the moment, but I'm sure there are some. EDIT: A perfect example of this would be if the character came up against a mathematical challenge such as a calculus problem, and while the character has a high Int, they were never taught anything beyond basic algebra. Obviously they can't solve it, regardless of whether or not the player can or what a straight Int roll might determine. It doesn't meant their Int score should be lower, it just means that they aren't specialized in that. This would be analogous to the spell doing damage to the character's mind in a specialized way that leaves them with 1 Int and Cha, but not necessarily as dumb as a housefly.

[Tanarii]

The spell tells you exactly what the mechanical affects are. Anything other than that is your choice as a player.

Keep in mind that it's often quite difficult to separate player and character knowledge, and this is one of those times that either require extraordinary steps to keep you in the dark, or you have to accept that extra player knowledge, with all the second guessing that often entails.

Specifically you need to hear descriptions of what NPcs and PCs are doing, as well as descriptions of the environment ... but unless the DM and fellow players explicitly signal you to plug your ears, you're probably going to hear things that are being communicated in game by language.

But I'd advise not worrying about it too much and try to make the best decisions you can after accounting that you shouldn't have just heard that ...

[SociopathFriend]

Looking at this from an intention of the game's developers perspective, it would be a terrible idea to have a PC with zero agency for possibly up to an in game month and likely at least a couple full sessions if played appropriately. The players affected are likely attached to their characters, I for one am, and they aren't going to want to give them up when they see that there is a chance to fix it.

As opposed to outright death, nasty diseases, and physical disability- all of which are available in the game? Your characters can have nasty things happen to them- it's the life of an adventurer. Feeblemind in older editions was even harder to shake off IIRC. Fun only gets you so far. Heck Super Tetanus showed back up in Whiteplume Mountain.

Is Trap the Soul in 5e still? The spell that literally sticks you in a rock and will keep you there forever until someone frees you?
Edit: Yep, Imprisonment. Not meaning to be catty but, "It's not fun to deal with" so far as I know has never really applied for most magic spells being used against you.




This means that if it were treated as part of the first camp, the player would be sitting there for several sessions having no fun at all and not getting to interact with their fellow players in any meaningful way, which makes no sense in what is supposed to be a fun game. If you treat it as part of the second camp, it makes almost no sense relative to the flavor text. This spell is supposed to be practically the next step down from an instant death spell and it's supposed to cripple a character, not just severely inconvenience them in a couple areas.

Speaking from experience of being hit with a Feeblemind (even the Paladin had trouble with saves against Demogorgon) it's hard to roleplay yes and isn't fun but... it's not supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be a bad thing busted out to break the mind of an opponent for a prolonged amount of time because your Intelligence has been basically destroyed.
Feeblemind is not alone in that, Intellect Devourers can damage your Intelligence as well, which points out that at a score of Int 0 leaves you Stunned for practical purposes and makes you unable to do... pretty much anything. No moving, automatic failing of any Strength or Dexterity saves, no actions nor reactions, etc. Which I fully intend to bring up the next time the DM tries to kill my character with those annoying things.
Feeblemind just barely, barely, puts you above being borderline comatose.

[strangebloke]

Honestly, roll a temporary character.

Your guy's not dead but due the immediate future he may as well be. Barring something like a helm of intellect falling into your lap there's nothing you can do in character except wait for a level up.

The new guy can even be a little underlevelled. Playing a sixth level dude in a 9th level party is more fun than playing a ninth level guy with no class features.

If the GM allows there should be some kind of NPC in the world who can cast greater restoration. Could be a little side quest.

[Silicon42]

As opposed to outright death, nasty diseases, and physical disability- all of which are available in the game? Your characters can have nasty things happen to them- it's the life of an adventurer. Feeblemind in older editions was even harder to shake off IIRC. Fun only gets you so far. Heck Super Tetanus showed back up in Whiteplume Mountain.

Is Trap the Soul in 5e still? The spell that literally sticks you in a rock and will keep you there forever until someone frees you?




Speaking from experience of being hit with a Feeblemind (even the Paladin had trouble with saves against Demogorgon) it's hard to roleplay yes and isn't fun but... it's not supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be a bad thing busted out to break the mind of an opponent for a prolonged amount of time because your Intelligence has been basically destroyed.
Feeblemind is not alone in that, Intellect Devourers can damage your Intelligence as well, which points out that at a score of Int 0 leaves you Stunned for practical purposes and makes you unable to do... pretty much anything. No moving, automatic failing of any Strength or Dexterity saves, no actions nor reactions, etc. Which I fully intend to bring up the next time the DM tries to kill my character with those annoying things.
Feeblemind just barely, barely, puts you above being borderline comatose.

I'm not saying that there aren't things around the same power level that do the same thing, rather those other things usually leave the character completely unplayable whereas Feeblemind specifically calls out actions the player can still do, meaning that they meant for it to be played with. That and it has very tangible solutions to it, being the save in one month, the spells it calls out, and mitigation with various magic items, such as Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Headband of Intellect. The other spells/effects are usually a lot more final in whether they finish off your character and what you, the player affected, can do about it, making them a lot less frustrating in my opinion.

As for whether or not such spells should be in the game at all, I'm of the opinion that they should be. If a game is to be really fun, there has to be some form of stakes to it, although that also means that the stakes should be somewhat telegraphed or else it will feel unfair and doing that is really the DMs job. With respect to how limiting Feeblemind is, my opinion is that working within the rules is often the most fun since without rules, there is no room for creativity. I find that the more restrictive the rules are, the more rewarding it often feels to overcome them, although that might just be me being slightly masochistic when it comes to games.

[Laserlight]

I would play it like an untrained dog. You know when your human is being physically threatened and will growl, or attack if the threat gets closer; however, you don't respond to "Heel" or "Sit" or "Sic 'em", and you probably don't recognize a non-physical threat (including a spell caster across the room).

I'd use the staff I'm used to. If someone put another weapon in my hand, i'd gaze blankly and drop it. If they tried to put a shield on my arm, I'd struggle --and using a shield takes proficiency, so even if the party managed to strap one on me, I'd let it hang there uselessly.

[Glorthindel]

Who (or what) is your Hexblades Patron? Depending on how hands-on they are (and the relationship between you), you could discuss with you DM whether your patron takes this opportunity to take a more active hand on the wheel (either by giving direct orders to your very-suggestible mind, or my using you like a meat puppet) while your characters own personality is on vacation. All the more fun if you play it with the Patron trying to hide being in temporary control (with the occasional slip).

[Silicon42]

I would play it like an untrained dog. You know when your human is being physically threatened and will growl, or attack if the threat gets closer; however, you don't respond to "Heel" or "Sit" or "Sic 'em", and you probably don't recognize a non-physical threat (including a spell caster across the room).

I'd use the staff I'm used to. If someone put another weapon in my hand, i'd gaze blankly and drop it. If they tried to put a shield on my arm, I'd struggle --and using a shield takes proficiency, so even if the party managed to strap one on me, I'd let it hang there uselessly.

I'm a bit partial to this idea. As for shields and such, she technically does have proficiency in them and the spell doesn't directly effect using them and even goes as far at to imply that you use them normally so it's not like she couldn't, but a case could be made that she is less familiar with them, for whatever small amount of familiarity she has with anything due to the spell.


Who (or what) is your Hexblades Patron? Depending on how hands-on they are (and the relationship between you), you could discuss with you DM whether your patron takes this opportunity to take a more active hand on the wheel (either by giving direct orders to your very-suggestible mind, or my using you like a meat puppet) while your characters own personality is on vacation. All the more fun if you play it with the Patron trying to hide being in temporary control (with the occasional slip).

We haven't really fleshed out the background of who/what exactly the "Hexblade" is. I've been operating on the assumption that it was something created by the Raven Queen so that she could split her work more efficiently and is otherwise it's own entity and sub-contracts out work to its warlocks, but we never actually discussed it or set anything in stone. Based on that, I'd say it probably doesn't care enough about little ol' Pekoe to watch or puppet her 24/7 but might throw her a bone in such a sticky situation once it notices. Being one of the easiest and less dangerous of the warlock pacts means that they likely have more members than most, meaning it just doesn't have the time to micromanage her individual case.

[Zuras]

Feeble mind is a terribly in-fun spell that points out multiple issues with the D&D stat system, too.

I once had a high level Druid Feebleminded. How are you supposed to RP a character with Int 1 and wisdom 20?

It was fine for the remaining hour of that adventure, but I personally wouldn’t be willing play an Int 1 PC for more than a session and a half before asking to roll up a new PC.

[darknite]

In my game Feeblemind gives you the intellectual capability of a newborn baby. Yes, you can 'identify, follow and even protect' your friends. But you don't get any class abilities whatsoever, including weapon and armor proficiencies. Pony up for the Greater Restoration and drive on or have your friend pull you along as a drooling deadweight.

[Mjolnirbear]

Who (or what) is your Hexblades Patron? Depending on how hands-on they are (and the relationship between you), you could discuss with you DM whether your patron takes this opportunity to take a more active hand on the wheel (either by giving direct orders to your very-suggestible mind, or my using you like a meat puppet) while your characters own personality is on vacation. All the more fun if you play it with the Patron trying to hide being in temporary control (with the occasional slip).

If we're voting, I love this idea for OP

[strangebloke]

We haven't really fleshed out the background of who/what exactly the "Hexblade" is. I've been operating on the assumption that it was something created by the Raven Queen so that she could split her work more efficiently and is otherwise it's own entity and sub-contracts out work to its warlocks, but we never actually discussed it or set anything in stone. Based on that, I'd say it probably doesn't care enough about little ol' Pekoe to watch or puppet her 24/7 but might throw her a bone in such a sticky situation once it notices. Being one of the easiest and less dangerous of the warlock pacts means that they likely have more members than most, meaning it just doesn't have the time to micromanage her individual case.

Still, I think the idea of him getting possessed is a great solution here. It allows for there to be consequences without you being unable to play your character. Whether its your patron or a mindflayer or an aboleth who is for whatever reason opposed to the same people that you are.

[Tanarii]

It allows for there to be consequences without you being unable to play your character.
If a player believes Feeblemind makes the character unplayable, they should just retire the character. Asking the DM to fist your character around the spell is like asking them to fiat around a Disintegrate.

[Segev]

Does increasing - even temporarily - the stats remove any of the non-stat-based penalties (e.g. inability to use language, cast spells, etc)?

Aside from that, why can't she use PAM? Isn't that just a feat? Or am I wrong and you don't mean Pole Arm Master? I don't know any WArlock spells by that acronym off the top of my head.


I'd argue that she's still the same person, just...very confused and unsure of herself. Unable to process things. Dumb as a post, but still as nice or mean as she otherwise was. Notably, her Wisdom is unaffected, so her instincts and self-control should actually be just as good; what's impaired is her ability to make logical, reasoned decisions, not to make moral or ethical judgments based on the immediate, nor to engage in delayed gratification.

[strangebloke]

If a player believes Feeblemind makes the character unplayable, they should just retire the character. Asking the DM to fist your character around the spell is like asking them to fiat around a Disintegrate.

Well, that was my first suggestion.

The DM might not want that for whatever reason though. Maybe it'd be hard to bring in a new character at this point, particularly when the feeblemind effect is going to get cleared within a week or so of in-game time and the kobold hexblade is going to come back into the fight.

It's just an option.

[Keravath]

Does increasing - even temporarily - the stats remove any of the non-stat-based penalties (e.g. inability to use language, cast spells, etc)?

Aside from that, why can't she use PAM? Isn't that just a feat? Or am I wrong and you don't mean Pole Arm Master? I don't know any WArlock spells by that acronym off the top of my head.


I'd argue that she's still the same person, just...very confused and unsure of herself. Unable to process things. Dumb as a post, but still as nice or mean as she otherwise was. Notably, her Wisdom is unaffected, so her instincts and self-control should actually be just as good; what's impaired is her ability to make logical, reasoned decisions, not to make moral or ethical judgments based on the immediate, nor to engage in delayed gratification.

The issue here is the "gray" area about what stats mean. How the player and DM want to interpret the meaning of each category of stats and their value also come into play.

Any sort of fighting with weapons/armor/shields is NOT entirely instinct. There may or may not be conscious thought (especially in martial arts) but there is still thought. If a character loses the ability to think (intelligence), then they might lose all sorts of related abilities generally involving how to do things (DM call). Although a character may still have a high wisdom this is mostly related to your awareness and senses and not your ability to do things.

"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."

As a result, the DM could rule that a feebleminded character is incapable of the thought needed to utilize any feat like Polearm Master (how can anyone be a master of a polearm when they don't really know what one is anymore? [or do they? DM call]). Similarly, class abilities, proficiencies, skills (beyond just the int skills) might be significantly impacted. For example, a feebleminded character might still notice a hidden door if their passive perception is high enough but they might no longer be able to even know what a secret door is or what it might mean. They might notice some creatures hiding in ambush but they would not be able to assess any level of threat, warn their companions since they don't know it is a problem, or even recognize what might be hiding.

My original post outlined the two extremes varying from unplayable to mechanical disadvantage only when a roll is called for and the rest by the wording of the spell. How it actually gets played depends on a discussion between the affected player and the DM.

However, no matter what is decided, playing the character is likely to be very little fun until the feeblemind is lifted ... and just like the large number of other spells that can negatively impact your character, this is probably the design intent.

Keep in mind that since a feebleminded character can't communicate and can't understand any form of communication then it is acting solely on the basis of what the character perceives. The only things explicitly allowed are following friends and protecting them. If someone shakes your friends hand, you might perceive this as an attack and attack that person in turn. When your friend tells you to stop, you pay them no attention since you don't understand. You continue attacking the other person until someone physically restrains you, or you get tired, or bored, or forget why you were attacking them ... how playable this actually is will be a function of the player and DM.

[Silicon42]

Still, I think the idea of him getting possessed is a great solution here. It allows for there to be consequences without you being unable to play your character. Whether its your patron or a mindflayer or an aboleth who is for whatever reason opposed to the same people that you are.


The issue here is the "gray" area about what stats mean. How the player and DM want to interpret the meaning of each category of stats and their value also come into play.

Any sort of fighting with weapons/armor/shields is NOT entirely instinct. There may or may not be conscious thought (especially in martial arts) but there is still thought. If a character loses the ability to think (intelligence), then they might lose all sorts of related abilities generally involving how to do things (DM call). Although a character may still have a high wisdom this is mostly related to your awareness and senses and not your ability to do things.

Maybe a bit of a compromise then. While whatever being the Hexblade maybe doesn't have the time to oversee her personally 24/7 it does possess her once combat begins in order to give her a fighting chance rather than be too dumb to use a weapon or class abilities.

Alternatively, PAM and other weapon using could be interpreted as having become so well practiced at it, that the actions have become almost purely muscle memory, ingrained deep into her psyche and almost as natural as breathing.


Does increasing - even temporarily - the stats remove any of the non-stat-based penalties (e.g. inability to use language, cast spells, etc)?

Aside from that, why can't she use PAM? Isn't that just a feat? Or am I wrong and you don't mean Pole Arm Master? I don't know any WArlock spells by that acronym off the top of my head.


I'd argue that she's still the same person, just...very confused and unsure of herself. Unable to process things. Dumb as a post, but still as nice or mean as she otherwise was. Notably, her Wisdom is unaffected, so her instincts and self-control should actually be just as good; what's impaired is her ability to make logical, reasoned decisions, not to make moral or ethical judgments based on the immediate, nor to engage in delayed gratification.

I was in fact referring to Polearm Master. It's not that she can't use it, just that it might not be as effective due to 9 Str as opposed to a finesse weapon with one less attack per turn, but 14 Dex.

The not being capable of delayed gratification is a good point that I will try to keep in mind. As for her being herself, I feel that might fall more into the shattering of her ego, aka her sense of self, aka her Charisma score. she might have roughly the same disposition, but beyond that is questionable.


[Several people discussing whether or not this makes a character unplayable.]

I can't speak for how this should be treated on a wider scale, however everyone at our table is friends and our DM is fairly middle of the road when it comes to the raw mechanics vs logical implications issue, leaning toward whichever makes it more fun for the group so I'm almost guaranteed that in my situation, my character will still be playable if temporarily crippled.

As for retiring the character temporarily or permanently, I'm well known among our group of friends for taking the longest to create a new character and usually making them very complex mechanically, so that's a bit of a disincentive for them to want me to make a new one.

[darknite]

I don't get the aversion to the character being 'unplayable'. They get a new save in a month and in the meantime it can be cleared with a 5th level spell. Not much more problematic than bringing a dead PC back to town for a Raise Dead at the temple. These kind of things happen to adventurers, after all.

[Zuras]

I don't get the aversion to the character being 'unplayable'. They get a new save in a month and in the meantime it can be cleared with a 5th level spell. Not much more problematic than bringing a dead PC back to town for a Raise Dead at the temple. These kind of things happen to adventurers, after all.

People play D&D to have fun. For most people, playing a character that can’t talk and has an Int of 1 isn’t going to be fun.

Why spend 4 hours of your limited free time doing something that just ends up being frustrating?

Granted, some players may enjoy the challenge, at least for a while, but many won’t. I personally can’t even stand the RP limitations of playing a Kenku, and would be gone if the DM/party didn’t resolve the situation or give me something else to do (e.g. new PC, running an NPC, co-DMing) by the end of our next session.

Having fun is a much higher priority for me than maintaining the internal consistency of the DMs fantasy world.

[darknite]

People play D&D to have fun. For most people, playing a character that can’t talk and has an Int of 1 isn’t going to be fun.

..

I get it. But I've found that this trend of watering down of consequences also makes for a very tepid game. If your character is never really in peril then what's the point? And in the case of Feeblemind (along with several other conditions) you learn that it's pretty important for the party to invest in one or more scrolls of Greater Restoration.

[Segev]

The issue here is the "gray" area about what stats mean. How the player and DM want to interpret the meaning of each category of stats and their value also come into play.

Any sort of fighting with weapons/armor/shields is NOT entirely instinct. There may or may not be conscious thought (especially in martial arts) but there is still thought. If a character loses the ability to think (intelligence), then they might lose all sorts of related abilities generally involving how to do things (DM call). Although a character may still have a high wisdom this is mostly related to your awareness and senses and not your ability to do things.

"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."

As a result, the DM could rule that a feebleminded character is incapable of the thought needed to utilize any feat like Polearm Master (how can anyone be a master of a polearm when they don't really know what one is anymore?In terms of your original post on the extrema, I fall very much closer to the side of "the stats do what they say they do" than "the stats cover a lot that isn't meantioned and have mechanical effect outside of that."

PAM doesn't have an Int or Cha requirement; it can still be used. She hasn't lost proficiency with any weapons she may have had before. (I'm not entirely sure why feeblemind is making her less effective without a finesse weapon; I think I'm missing something here.)

I do believe that it impacts RP. Strongly. She's a drooling idiot with no social awareness about how her own behavior and actions look to others. She still can be kind or cruel as she normally would be, though probably less effective at both without the reasoning to maximize the efficacy of her generosities or the cunning to disguise her cruelties. She is not, however, any less able to read people than before. She can't understand their linguistic words, but she can pick up on the sorts of things one rolls Insight to determine. She can use any weapons she could before, though maybe needs to be guided into when to use them. And likely isn't thinking strategically or tactically about it so much as "attack thing that angers me."

She can't cast spells; the spell says so. She isn't impeded beyond what the spell says, mechanically, though, because otherwise you're making an already strong spell significantly more powerful.


I was in fact referring to Polearm Master. It's not that she can't use it, just that it might not be as effective due to 9 Str as opposed to a finesse weapon with one less attack per turn, but 14 Dex.I'm afraid I'm missing something, as I said before. What was she doing pre-feeblemind that post-feeblemind her 9 Str is getting in the way and necessitating switching to a finesse weapon?


The not being capable of delayed gratification is a good point that I will try to keep in mind.I should point out that I was saying she is still capable of delayed gratification, at least as much as before. Delayed gratification is more a function of Wisdom than it is Int or Cha.


As for her being herself, I feel that might fall more into the shattering of her ego, aka her sense of self, aka her Charisma score. she might have roughly the same disposition, but beyond that is questionable."Same disposition" is mostly what I meant. I don't mean she views herself as herself. I mean that underlying character traits should still be recognizable. If she liked puppies and was good with children, she probably still likes puppies and has an obvious fondness for children. If she enjoyed singing before, she probably still hums - albeit with no talent, given her -5 to Charisma checks - whenever she's happy.

[Silicon42]

I'm afraid I'm missing something, as I said before. What was she doing pre-feeblemind that post-feeblemind her 9 Str is getting in the way and necessitating switching to a finesse weapon?

I should point out that I was saying she is still capable of delayed gratification, at least as much as before. Delayed gratification is more a function of Wisdom than it is Int or Cha.

"Same disposition" is mostly what I meant. I don't mean she views herself as herself. I mean that underlying character traits should still be recognizable. If she liked puppies and was good with children, she probably still likes puppies and has an obvious fondness for children. If she enjoyed singing before, she probably still hums - albeit with no talent, given her -5 to Charisma checks - whenever she's happy.

As a hexblade, she can replace the modifier that is used for attack and damage with her bonded/summoned weapon with Charisma if it's higher, so she used to be at a +8 total to hit and damage as opposed to now being at a +3 if relying on Strength.

I guess I misunderstood you on the delayed gratification matter, but that would be an interesting way to play it. I also think what you mentioned about Insight is something I'll keep in mind.

[Zuras]

I get it. But I've found that this trend of watering down of consequences also makes for a very tepid game. If your character is never really in peril then what's the point? And in the case of Feeblemind (along with several other conditions) you learn that it's pretty important for the party to invest in one or more scrolls of Greater Restoration.

You can have meaningful consequences without making those consequences revolve around the player’s personal avatar that lets them access the world, though. Personally, I think it is more important for the DM to be willing to kill the kidnapped princess than to kill PCs.

As long as it possible to fail the *mission*, and that failure has consequences, the game has meaningful stakes. The consequences don’t have to be to the PCs directly.

On the other hand, my tolerance for a bad/boring session is probably lower than average. I mostly DM, so the prospect of wasting one of my rare sessions as a player piloting a PC with Int 1 is so distasteful I would walk away in a hot second.

[Keravath]

In terms of your original post on the extrema, I fall very much closer to the side of "the stats do what they say they do" than "the stats cover a lot that isn't meantioned and have mechanical effect outside of that."

PAM doesn't have an Int or Cha requirement; it can still be used. She hasn't lost proficiency with any weapons she may have had before. (I'm not entirely sure why feeblemind is making her less effective without a finesse weapon; I think I'm missing something here.)

I do believe that it impacts RP. Strongly. She's a drooling idiot with no social awareness about how her own behavior and actions look to others. She still can be kind or cruel as she normally would be, though probably less effective at both without the reasoning to maximize the efficacy of her generosities or the cunning to disguise her cruelties. She is not, however, any less able to read people than before. She can't understand their linguistic words, but she can pick up on the sorts of things one rolls Insight to determine. She can use any weapons she could before, though maybe needs to be guided into when to use them. And likely isn't thinking strategically or tactically about it so much as "attack thing that angers me."

She can't cast spells; the spell says so. She isn't impeded beyond what the spell says, mechanically, though, because otherwise you're making an already strong spell significantly more powerful.

I'm afraid I'm missing something, as I said before. What was she doing pre-feeblemind that post-feeblemind her 9 Str is getting in the way and necessitating switching to a finesse weapon?

I should point out that I was saying she is still capable of delayed gratification, at least as much as before. Delayed gratification is more a function of Wisdom than it is Int or Cha.

"Same disposition" is mostly what I meant. I don't mean she views herself as herself. I mean that underlying character traits should still be recognizable. If she liked puppies and was good with children, she probably still likes puppies and has an obvious fondness for children. If she enjoyed singing before, she probably still hums - albeit with no talent, given her -5 to Charisma checks - whenever she's happy.

The character is a hexblade warlock that used charisma for their to hit/damage. Dex was 14 to max the AC in medium armor. However, feeblemind sets the charisma to 1 and thus the likely 20 charisma that the character used as their attack and spell stat is now 1. This is why it affects their combat capabilities. Hex warrior now applies a -5 to hit/damage so they have fall back on dex (since str is 9). However, PAM doesn't work with finesse weapons so no matter which way they go unless they decide to use the -1 for strength attacks, they won't be using PAM.

As far as how the character plays is concerned .. that depends on how the DM and player interpret the meaning of 1 int and 1 charisma. The definitions of these in the player's handbook are the following:

"Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason."
"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."
"Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality."

Keep in mind that the following comments are subjective. The only mechanical effects of any stats in the rules come into play when the DM asks the player to make a die roll in response to a particular skill check with a known DC or when making an attack roll or saving throw.

Intelligence includes "accuracy of recall" or memory. Does a character with an int of 1 have the ability to remember how to use various weapons, the techniques needed to apply them in different circumstances (what technique should they use when the opponent swings a sword straight down?), the ability to pick locks (what should they do if they encounter a particular kind of lock?). [This is a DM call but I could see a DM saying that intelligence/memory/reasoning is an important factor in almost ANY skilled activity.

On your delayed gratification comment, wisdom only affects your perceptiveness and intuition. Basically this affects how a character senses the world around them. Delayed gratification (as far as I know) involves the reasoned approach of doing something now for a reward later. I think that would be beyond a character with an int of 1 but again that up to the particular DM/player to work out. Although some children can be very perceptive, very few young children have any facility with delayed gratification.

Anyway, in this case it will be up to the player and DM to sort out how they want to play it and for how long.

[Silicon42]

The character is a hexblade warlock that used charisma for their to hit/damage. Dex was 14 to max the AC in medium armor. However, feeblemind sets the charisma to 1 and thus the likely 20 charisma that the character used as their attack and spell stat is now 1. This is why it affects their combat capabilities. Hex warrior now applies a -5 to hit/damage so they have fall back on dex (since str is 9). However, PAM doesn't work with finesse weapons so no matter which way they go unless they decide to use the -1 for strength attacks, they won't be using PAM.

The character's stats are Str:9, Dex:14, Con:15, Int:11, Wis:13, Cha:18. The reason I don't have 20 Charisma is because I wanted to pick up Warcaster so I could cast Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade on my opportunity attacks, other situations where I couldn't do multiple attacks, or was guaranteed a crit and for improved concentration saves. My Invocations are Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, and Gift of the Depths (we're in an ocean setting).

[Tanarii]

As a hexblade, she can replace the modifier that is used for attack and damage with her bonded/summoned weapon with Charisma if it's higher, so she used to be at a +8 total to hit and damage as opposed to now being at a +3 if relying on Strength.
It took me a second to catch on too, then I was all oh yeah Hexblade ... attacks with Cha. /facepalm.

So yeah, you really do have a build that gets kinda screwed as both a caster and in melee, when it used to be good at both.

[Silicon42]

It took me a second to catch on too, then I was all oh yeah Hexblade ... attacks with Cha. /facepalm.

So yeah, you really do have a build that gets kinda screwed as both a caster and in melee, when it used to be good at both.
It's better than a wizard that wouldn't be able to do anything...

[Tanarii]

It's better than a wizard that wouldn't be able to do anything...
Yes yes, but I was comparing to a more traditional martial caster, which would have either Str or Dex as their physical attack stat.