UA Today? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

jaappleton

2019-04-09, 07:35 PM

A guy got in trouble over bad stuff. WotC burned all connections to the guy. Mearls posted a bit talking about the guy. Mearls suddenly went dark

Not entirely.

So, during the infancy of 5E, back when it was called D&D Next, there was a playtester. He even got a Contributor credit in the PHB for 5E. His name was Zak S.

I'm not going to get into specifically what Zak S has said, but suffice to say, multiple allegations of abuse (especially toward women and homosexuals), hatemongering, bigotry, etc.

And.... people knew about these things. Some people at WOTC.

Mike Mearls went to bat for Zak S on numerous occasions in the past. There's screenshots. There's evidence of this. These are facts.

So back in January / February of this year, all these allegations came to light and gained a ton of momentum. WOTC removed the entire Contributors section of the PHB credits (Legally they couldn't just remove one person, so they spoke to all the other contributors and they all had no issue with this) and disowned Zak S. Mike Mearls has since gone dark, social media blackout.

Now... Here's what I've gathered from some light investigative work (Various google searches) :

Employees at WOTC are actually under contract. Like, contracts are renewed, extended, terminated, etc. Mearls hasn't been fired, he's still under contract. His LinkedIn still has him listed at WOTC. Recently, Jeremy Crawford and Chris Perkins have done interviews... Neither mentioned Mearls. Also, Mearls's weekly Monday stream, Happy Fun Hour, hasn't happened at all in 2019 and he was SUPPOSED to be the DM for the streamed game Heroes of the Vale but left after the first episode due to 'unforeseen circumstances'.

My opinion? Mearls is out. He's gone. Not officially, not yet, but his contract won't be renewed when the time comes. WOTC recently announced their next big event, similar to Stream of Annihilation and Stream of Many Eyes in years past (this years event is called 'Descent'), and I think whether or not Mearls is there will be extremely telling.

NOTE: For full disclosure, on the info site for Descent, Mearls IS listed there. But I don't see it going over well to have him locked in a closet since February only to reappear there, at a big unveiling, having had zero further statements about what happened.... I mean, the internet doesn't forget. Does it?

Dr.Samurai

2019-04-09, 09:18 PM

Mike Mearls went to bat for Zak S on numerous occasions in the past. There's screenshots. There's evidence of this. These are facts.
From the evidence I've seen, Mearls did his job, did his due diligence, and came to a different conclusion than the people making the complaints.

If he gets fired over this because of something unrelated being revealed five years later... well that would be absolute insanity.

Theodoxus

2019-04-10, 01:51 PM

From the evidence I've seen, Mearls did his job, did his due diligence, and came to a different conclusion than the people making the complaints.

If he gets fired over this because of something unrelated being revealed five years later... well that would be absolute insanity.

Eh, par for the course in today's America...

Yunru

2019-04-10, 02:01 PM

I mean, the internet doesn't forget. Does it?
I dunno, they forgot the React World fiasco.

If he gets fired over this because of something unrelated being revealed five years later... well that would be absolute insanity.
Guardians of the Galaxy anyone?

Vogie

2019-04-10, 02:58 PM

Guardians of the Galaxy anyone?

... So you expect he'll be back after 9 months?

Yunru

2019-04-10, 03:02 PM

... So you expect he'll be back after 9 months?

You don't? :P

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-10, 04:38 PM

So back in January / February of this year, all these allegations came to light and gained a ton of momentum. WOTC removed the entire Contributors section of the PHB credits (Legally they couldn't just remove one person, so they spoke to all the other contributors and they all had no issue with this) and disowned Zak S. Mike Mearls has since gone dark, social media blackout.
Welcome to modern reality: the lynch mob mentality of a small town has spread to the whole world, or a given community, thanks to modern social media. Sometimes it is has a benfit, sometimes not. People behave somewhat differently in groups than they do individually, but there is a synergistic effect of a mob/crowd growing larger. (I can't recall if it was Nitezsche or Kant who has a swell little aphorism for that, but if I can remember it, I'll post it).
{Young Frankenstein reference: a riot is a terrible thing ... so let's have one. }

Mike seems to have gotten hit by the frag pattern for the bomb that went off when Zak's unsavory utterances became associated with the D&D brand. WoTC could not just sit there and do nothing. It was their name that was begin sullied by association, and for them brand/name is important to the success of this product line. (And profit)

Is Mike in or out? I think your estimation is founded on sound reasoning, but it is still a guess.

Now... Here's what I've gathered from some light investigative work (Various google searches)

NOTE: For full disclosure, on the info site for Descent, Mearls IS listed there. But I don't see it going over well to have him locked in a closet since February only to reappear there, at a big unveiling, having had zero further statements about what happened.... I mean, the internet doesn't forget. Does it? No, it doesn't, but maybe Mike will be also remembered for all that he has contributed ... we'll see. Maybe not. People and crowds can be fickle.
Eh, par for the course in today's America... Yeah, and even since before Twitter. Various blogs and internet forums/discussion sites have had such things blow up.

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-10, 06:40 PM

Welcome to modern reality: the lynch mob mentality of a small town has spread to the whole world, or a given community, thanks to modern social media.

Another point of view is that the public eye makes companies accountable for their actions or inactions.

Another point of view is that a good company will take corrective action when they become aware that their staff handled things inappropriately.

jaappleton

2019-04-10, 06:46 PM

Gaius Hermicus

2019-04-10, 07:57 PM

Mikal

2019-04-10, 08:36 PM

That really sucks, if it's true.

Mearls seemed to really be directing the creative portions of 5e, coming up with the cool fluff and things. A lot of his Happy Fun Hour stuff was pretty exciting, and I personally think it would be a huge loss to the game if he was gone.

If he enabled people like ZS he’s a loss I’m more than willing to handle. Someone’s creative ability doesn’t matter if they’re the type of people who ignore people like ZS in favor of their own desires.

Chaosrex

2019-04-10, 09:27 PM

I have always though that this kind of Lynching and reaction was stupid...

The guy says stupid stuff and is a douche?, and, why is it my probleme?, i don't live with the guy, he isn't my neighbore, we arn't friends or know each others.

if he's an idiot thats HIS problem, as long that he does his work correctly and that the result is satisfying.

I have my own **** to deal with, i don't need other people's drama.

But now everyone is at everyones throath or waiting for them to make a mistake or say something stupid...

Mikal

2019-04-10, 09:34 PM

Sigreid

2019-04-10, 10:18 PM

Yeah it’s almost as if protecting people who literally sexually assault women should have consequences or something. Shocking, I know.

I don't know what the allegations were, or what has been proven. My stance would be if the guy who the trouble started over has literally sexually assaulted women, and it's an known fact and not an accusation, he should be in jail. Otherwise, it really shouldn't be anyone else's problem. I've ditched people in the past because I found out they held attitudes I strongly objected to, but I really can't see trying to completely ruin someone for stupid crap said on the internet. Especially since the internet is largely composed of stupid crap people say but don't mean.

Daithi

2019-04-10, 11:06 PM

Thanks for responding to my question. I've been sitting in the dark wondering what happened to Mearls. It's too bad, as I liked Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour, and I really like Unearthed Arcana --- and I suspect Mearls was a big part of getting that produced each month. This kind of explains why we have only seen one UA this year, and according to Mearls, that one was just about ready to go last year.

I certainly understand WotC distancing themselves from Zak S, but I'm conflicted in regards to Mearls. If Zak S was an outright employee of WotC, and Mearls was his supervisor, and if an employee at WotC had an interaction with Zak S that rose to sexual harassment (or racist comments or similar), and Mearls ignored it then I can see holding Mearls accountable.

However, if Zak S wasn't actually an employee, and if Mearls wasn't his supervisor or responsible for him, and Zak S was being a douche to someone(s) not an employee as WotC, and if Zak's conduct didn't raise to the level of a fireable offense then I can't see firing Mearls.

My guess is that the truth lies somewhere between these two points. So, I haven't decided for myself if I think Mearls should be fired. I'd say I'm leaning towards No, but if the facts are closer to the first scenario then I'd quite probably change my mind.

Anderlith

2019-04-10, 11:21 PM

Whiskeyjack8044

2019-04-10, 11:49 PM

I can understand letting MM go from a PR stand point. WotC has a chance to avoid the fate of the Comic Book industry and broaden it's demographic. You can't let bad optics threaten that. Firing someone who is good at his job would hurt in the short term, but in the long term it helps keep WotC growing healthily, away from an caustic toxicity. D&D has shed a lot of baggage to enter the main stream, no one is important enough to freely jeopardize those gains without consequences.

Anderlith

2019-04-10, 11:54 PM

snip.

I have to disagree. 5e is already suffering a bad image from lack of content & a lack of insight into the game itself. That’s like saying that it’s okay to become EA games. If the talent leaves, then the product will suffer, & if the product suffers in such a sensitive times as right now when D&D is becoming mainstream then it will crash & burn. WotC is already suffering from people rejecting the more recent MtG stuff

Luccan

2019-04-11, 12:31 AM

I have to disagree. 5e is already suffering a bad image from lack of content & a lack of insight into the game itself. That’s like saying that it’s okay to become EA games. If the talent leaves, then the product will suffer, & if the product suffers in such a sensitive times as right now when D&D is becoming mainstream then it will crash & burn. WotC is already suffering from people rejecting the more recent MtG stuff

It seems, to me, that much of the MtG pushback came from people who had played DnD for a long time, but not Magic. Those entirely new to 5e didn't seem to care much and I only saw rare cases of actual Magic fans who didn't support the idea. Social perception matters, particularly nowadays, WotC and possibly Mearls himself will need to pull some pretty amazing social wizardry to avoid backlash going forward, at least for a little while.

I think we'll just have to see what happens with Mearls. I do think there's a strong possibility he was blinded by his own closeness if not to Zak S, then to the 5e project. That wouldn't excuse totally ignoring accusations, if that's what he did, but everyone experiences cognitive bias about people and things they're close to. Supposed supporters of certain things excuse behavior antithetical to their beliefs in their friends all the time. 5e came out a little before a lot of things I don't think we're allowed to discuss in detail on the forums came into the public eye. A lot of people not actually guilty of those specific things still made mistakes, some were forgiven and some weren't. So I guess the question is how much you're willing to forgive a person's ignorance.

Personally I don't think it was Mike Mearls intent to encourage abuse of other people. I think if you accept he understands he made a mistake and think his apology* is sincere, then he should be allowed to keep his job. I don't think Mearls is a bad person, but I understand if some people would be uncomfortable with him having such a public role going forward.

Hope I won't regret jumping in on this

*Edit: To be clear, when Mearls makes a personal apology. I have a feeling WotC staff got a gag order on the whole thing, given he only posted the more corporate sounding tweet and literally hasn't posted since.

Anderlith

2019-04-11, 01:01 AM

Which is why I hate that Twitter & other social media is a thing. A person should not be held to this level of scrutiny, people will get harassed for a comment out of context from years ago because it’s no longer socially acceptable, yet people, like those who attacked Terese Nielsen (especially the one who works for WotC) aren’t held liable for their words, because the mob mentality deems it acceptable. Again I’m trying not to advocate any political agenda here, I’m just trying to illustrate the hypocrisy.

Lolzyking

2019-04-11, 01:58 AM

If only they'd gagged lindsay and woodall instead, those two have been very abusive to the AL community.

Anderlith

2019-04-11, 02:32 AM

If only they'd gagged lindsay and woodall instead, those two have been very abusive to the AL community.

Fill me in?

Kalashak

2019-04-11, 03:17 AM

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 04:34 AM

Mearls can’t know everything, & within that margin of error, you MUST give him the benefit of the doubt. It’s like our justice system. Unless definitive proof surfaces that Mearls knew something & took no action, then & only then would I condemn him.

Most anyone would take the word of someone they know over that of a stranger. Also, Mearls is human & no one is perfect. He could have been clouded by his relationship with Zac S, or just dumb. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. I’ve had friends who were total d*cks but I never saw that side of them (until well after), & I’ve defended them.

If Mearls is reprimanded fine, I get that. If he is fired, & there hasn’t been any proof of intent then I’m going to be upset. I hate Perkins take on 5e, & I can only see it getting worse

You seem to be hating on Perkins, but I don’t think you’re aware as to just how involved Perkins has been in 5E.

Not as much as you’d think. Perkins isn’t a designer anymore. He’s in charge of the D&D brand at this point.

He oversaw the creation of 5E. Co-lead designers being Crawford and Mearls. Now, he’s involved in essentially supervising and the overall direction of everything in 5E, but he’s not so much putting pen to paper in every project anymore.

Pretty much the only 5E project, as if to say ‘in 5E itself, what has Perkins been the lead on?’, the answer to that is Curse of Strahd. That’s all.

And CoS is considered one of, if not the best, 5E adventure. Though you may consider that ‘cheating’ since it’s updated Ravenloft, and that’s like saying remakes of A Christmas Carol are good Christmas movies on their own merit.

EDIT: Perkins was also the one who had the rough concept for Tomb of Annihilation, which he pitched to the design team as “Indiana Jones meets D&D”, but that was basically it.

Whiskeyjack8044

2019-04-11, 06:35 AM

I have to disagree. 5e is already suffering a bad image from lack of content & a lack of insight into the game itself. That’s like saying that it’s okay to become EA games. If the talent leaves, then the product will suffer, & if the product suffers in such a sensitive times as right now when D&D is becoming mainstream then it will crash & burn. WotC is already suffering from people rejecting the more recent MtG stuff

The truth is those of us who have played for many years and have already bought the books matter less than people who are just finding out about D&D. It sounds bad but it's actually a good thing. The comic book industry is being kept alive by a few thousand buyers, so publishers have to give everything they have to service those few readers. They can't go all in on new directions, they can't experiment, they can't take risks.

I've never played MtG, I'm not even entirely sure what it is, but I know it's popular. If even a few hundred MtG players cross over to D&D and bring their friends, that's a huge win. On average that means 5 people will buy the PHB, one may buy the DMG and at least 1 person, if not more in this hypothetical groupe, will buy GMGtR. Those sales happen every time a MtG player decides to convince his freinds to play D&D with him. The old Gaurd has to understand, GMGtR was never for them.

D&D is far and away the most popular TTRPG and their are waaaaay more players than GMs out there. Players are going to play what the GMs want to run, and GMs are going to run what they know, which is D&D. That's not to say WotC can do what ever they want, 4e is still a thing that happened, but they have a lot of wiggle room (at least until Pathfinder 2 comes out) and they can't afford bad PR to scare away the people 5e works so hard to court.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 06:58 AM

The truth is those of us who have played for many years and have already bought the books matter less than people who are just finding out about D&D. It sounds bad but it's actually a good thing. The comic book industry is being kept alive by a few thousand buyers, so publishers have to give everything they have to service those few readers. They can't go all in on new directions, they can't experiment, they can't take risks.

I've never played MtG, I'm not even entirely sure what it is, but I know it's popular. If even a few hundred MtG players cross over to D&D and bring their friends, that's a huge win. On average that means 5 people will buy the PHB, one may buy the DMG and at least 1 person, if not more in this hypothetical groupe, will buy GMGtR. Those sales happen every time a MtG player decides to convince his freinds to play D&D with him. The old Gaurd has to understand, GMGtR was never for them.

D&D is far and away the most popular TTRPG and their are waaaaay more players than GMs out there. Players are going to play what the GMs want to run, and GMs are going to run what they know, which is D&D. That's not to say WotC can do what ever they want, 4e is still a thing that happened, but they have a lot of wiggle room (at least until Pathfinder 2 comes out) and they can't afford bad PR to scare away the people 5e works so hard to court.

Well said.

Additionally, I’ve seen the numbers as to what’s played on things like FantasyGrounds and Roll20.

It’s 5E, then a MASSIVE.... and I mean MASSIVE drop off. Basically, 70% of all games are 5E. Then it’s a mix of Pathfinder, GURPS, 3.X, Shadowrun, FATE, etc. The next highest percentage is I believe Pathfinder with 13%.

Unoriginal

2019-04-11, 07:17 AM

5e is already suffering a bad image

5e isn't suffering from a bad image.

A few people on forums being annoyed that there isn't a book bloat like in past editions or thinking that Sage Advice lacks insight isn't "suffering a bad image". Even if those people are hundreds, it doesn't change that there are thousands who actually like 5e.

Dr.Samurai

2019-04-11, 07:47 AM

I’ll just say this last bit....

If you go to Twitter (you don’t need an account), he’s @mikemearls

Just look st the responses from his last tweet.

There’s some screenshots of old Facebook posts of Mike’s that are.... Unflattering to the situation.

If you read that, read the testimonies from people responding to him... It seems like Mike not only didn’t bet Zak S. But actively ignored people who spoke out against him.

That’s what I, personally, gathered from it. I encourage everyone to form their own opinion on the matter.

If he enabled people like ZS he’s a loss I’m more than willing to handle. Someone’s creative ability doesn’t matter if they’re the type of people who ignore people like ZS in favor of their own desires.

Yeah it’s almost as if protecting people who literally sexually assault women should have consequences or something. Shocking, I know.
For those that don't know what is in those screenshots, and who might read comments like the ones I just quoted and think Mearls was enabling sexual abuse or ignoring allegations of sexual abuse... please please please don't buy into this BS.

Mearls was receiving complaints that this guy Zak S was harassing people. In those screenshots, Mearls is complaining that no one is providing him with evidence whenever he asks for it. Then he receives the complaints directly and looks into it and concludes that there really isn't harassment going on and Mearls suspects that this is a campaign against Zak S from previous stuff from another website/forum or something.

About the only thing you can get on Mearls for is his suspicions that this was a coordinated effort by some people that don't like Zak S. I still think this isn't anything to bemoan but if you're really looking for a reason to judge Mearls, I guess, if I squint at it hard enough, you can complain about this.

But it has nothing to do with allegations of sexual abuse, which didn't come out until this year. It's not like the screenshots show Mearls defending Zak S *NOW* about allegations of sexual assault.

It would be like.. if we found out five years from now that Mearls kills puppies in his backyard, and someone throws up screenshots of this thread and says "there's screenshots of Dr. Samurai defending and enabling a puppy killer" and supporting me getting fired for it.

Until someone comes out with screenshots that actually show Mearls doing something wrong, then #Mearlsdidnothingwrong. And I say this as someone that knows nothing about him outside of UA articles. I don't love the guy, and I don't hate the guy.

Please stop pretending like he's committed some heinous crime and there's proof of it and you're all upstanding moral exemplars by insinuating that he ignored complaints or enabled a sexual predator. It's totally unreal.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 08:01 AM

Another point of view is that the public eye makes companies accountable for their actions or inactions. Another point of view is that a good company will take corrective action when they become aware that their staff handled things inappropriately. Just think, you could have included my next sentence in your quote of my post.

Sometimes it is has a benfit, sometimes not. If you feel that the added transparency is a benefit, goodonya, plenty of people will agree with you.
If Zak S was an outright employee of WotC, and Mearls was his supervisor, and if an employee at WotC had an interaction with Zak S that rose to sexual harassment (or racist comments or similar), and Mearls ignored it then I can see holding Mearls accountable. However, if Zak S wasn't actually an employee, and if Mearls wasn't his supervisor or responsible for him, and Zak S was being a douche to someone(s) not an employee as WotC, and if Zak's conduct didn't raise to the level of a fireable offense then I can't see firing Mearls. Except for the image problems, and image matters for game companies. People apply their discretionary spending with a lot of different filters. For example, I stopped buying or accepting offers to be served Russian vodka after KAL 007 was shot down (1983). That boycott, personal, remains in place to this day. It doesn't matter if someone agrees with my sentiments or reasons for so doing, that's a discretionary dollar I am spending somewhere else, or not at all. Similarly, I got a real bug up my backside a few decades ago about the Middle East (Saudi Arabia in particular) and went out of my way to only buy gas at Citgo stations. Why? They got their oil from Venezuela - indeed, the state oil company has a controlling interest in Citgo - so I decided that I'd rather support the economy of a South American country when I filled up ... granted, the global oil industry and supply system isn't that simplistic, but at the time it made me feel better.
WoTC is aware that consumers behave like that. Once they know about Zak, do they really want to be associated with that? If it becomes obvious that they have been advised, how do they deal with that image problem? They are not interested in losing current and future discretionary dollars coming their way.

If only they'd gagged lindsay and woodall instead, those two have been very abusive to the AL community. ? I guess I need to look that up. Doubtless, I'll regret it.
5e isn't suffering from a bad image. A few people on forums being annoyed that there isn't a book bloat like in past editions or thinking that Sage Advice lacks insight isn't "suffering a bad image". Even if those people are hundreds, it doesn't change that there are thousands who actually like 5e. Possibly even millions, if book sales are a measure of scale/scope for popularity.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 08:06 AM

Remember, Mearls hasn’t been fired.

Is he on some unofficial social media gag order? I think that’s likely.

It’s also possible the social media blackout is self imposed. Just.... “don’t engage it”, I suppose.

If they wanted to fire him, they would’ve.

Is he being scapegoated? Perhaps. It’s likely.

How much did Mearls actually know? Maybe very little. Maybe nothing. At the very least, allegations were brought to his attention years ago.

Is Mearls being punished for stuff Zak S did? I think that’s likely. How justifiable that is, is tied directly to what Mearls knew, IMO.

I don’t know what’s in Mearls’s contract. Maybe they CAN’T officially terminate him for what’s happened, and they’re riding it out until the contract expires. Maybe they can send him packing for putting fish in the lunch room microwave, I have no idea.

But right now he’s there. He works at WOTC. He hasn’t been fired for this.

It’s also important to note that WOTC is a private entity. The court of public opinion is a big deal to their PR people. They can toss someone whether they’ve committed a crime or not.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 08:10 AM

It’s also important to note that WOTC is a private entity. The court of public opinion is a big deal to their PR people. They can toss someone whether they’ve committed a crime or not. Maybe, while he is not social media-ing, he can go and get some training and practice in how to be involved in a professional video process. His videos are low quality, regardless of how personable of a guy. His public (on camera) speaking style is unpolished, sloppy, and just plain bad. If you are going to be the public face of a product, and he has been since release, it is mandatory that you put the effort into that piece of your job.
Crawford comes across as far more polished. And I think it's because he puts in the effort.

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 08:13 AM

Just think you could have included my next sentence in your quote of my post.

I knew about your next sentence, it did not excuse or justify calling this a lynch mob. Lynch mob is very specific and a judgement term. They are not a good thing.

By stating it was the public forcing this issue, you are implying that WotC only responded to these charges due to public pressure:

Thus if not for the mob, all of WotC would be guilty of conspiracy.
Or are you saying, WotC leadership took action without doing a proper investigation?

Dr.Samurai

2019-04-11, 08:17 AM

Maybe, while he is not social media-ing, he can go and get some training and practice in how to be involved in a professional video process. His videos are low quality, regardless of how personable of a guy. His public (on camera) speaking style is unpolished, sloppy, and just plain bad. If you are going to be the public face of a product, and he has been since release, it is mandatory that you put the effort into that piece of your job.
Crawford comes across as far more polished. And I think it's because he puts in the effort.
I agree. Mearls comes across as unsure, awkward, and with little confidence. "Sloppy" is a good word to describe it as well.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 08:24 AM

I knew about your next sentence, it did not excuse or justify calling this a lynch mob. I suggest that you take off the rose colored glasses - the internet and twitterverse is exactly that at its worst: a baying lynch mob in digital form.
People who participate in the viral condemnation do not care about due process - the assumption of guilt trumps all once an accusation surfaces. (Granted, sometimes the charges are true). I suggest you take a little deeper look at mob psychology. Beyond that, I will not wander further into RL stuff since we may be crossing into a moralizing problem vis a vis the forum rules. (And just to be clear: WoTC's decision regarding Zak feels right to me, but it's a damned shame that a lot of other people who earned their place in the credits get punished even though they did nothing wrong, but that gets into other rules and laws).

some guy

2019-04-11, 08:25 AM

How much did Mearls actually know? Maybe very little. Maybe nothing. At the very least, allegations were brought to his attention years ago.

It's important to remember that those allegations years ago were allegations of harassment, not of sexual abuse. So, at the very least, Mearls didn't know of the sexual abuse allegations at that time. Of course allegations of harassment should also be taken very serious, but the true claims were mixed with false claims, trolls and harassment against Zak himself, which made it easier for Zak to put himself in a victim role.

Maybe, while he is not social media-ing, he can go and get some training and practice in how to be involved in a professional video process. His videos are low quality, regardless of how personable of a guy. His public (on camera) speaking style is unpolished, sloppy, and just plain bad. If you are going to be the public face of a product, and he has been since release, it is mandatory that you put the effort into that piece of your job.
Crawford comes across as far more polished. And I think it's because he puts in the effort.

It would not be bad for Crawford to take a social media course, as well. His tweets are infuriating to me (only his tweets though, I find them very vague, accusatory and defensive in tone.).

Satine Phoenix is much more capable of handling social media, especially when you take in consideration that she knew Zak personally.

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 08:31 AM

I suggest that you take off the rose colored glasses - the internet and twitterverse is exactly that at its worst: a baying lynch mob in digital form.
People who participate in the viral condemnation do not care about due process - the assumption of guilt trumps all once an accusation surfaces. (Granted, sometimes the charges are true). I suggest you take a little deeper look at mob psychology. Beyond that, I will not wander further into RL stuff since we may be crossing into a moralizing problem vis a vis the forum rules. (And just to be clear: WoTC's decision regarding Zak feels right to me, but it's a damned shame that a lot of other people who earned their place in the credits get punished even though they did nothing wrong, but that gets into other rules and laws).

You are saying that WotC only acted this way due to public pressure; otherwise, their entire management chain would quietly sit on this whole thing. The WotC ignored due process. And you still give them money.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 08:31 AM

It would not be bad for Crawford to take a social media course, as well. His tweets are infuriating to me (only his tweets though, I find them very vague, accusatory and defensive in tone.). Yeah, Twitter takes a certain style to be effective. His mistake is (in my view) like a certain guy living in Washington DC: too often Jeremy Tweets before he thinks through a problem. :smallcool:
I agree, Jeremy could use some coaching on that, but I honestly think he got some. A few months ago he made clear that he was declaring his tweet responses as not official rulings, saying in part that people should not have to dig through his whole tweet catalogue to get answers on the rules. For official rulings, Sage Advice Compendium is the only source. (So I hope they update that with a little more frequency)

Satine Phoenix is much more capable of handling social media, especially when you take in consideration that she knew Zak personally. Hmm, I'll need to poke about to see what you are referring to, thanks for the tip.
(Does she work for WoTC?)

Daphne

2019-04-11, 08:36 AM

Satine Phoenix is much more capable of handling social media, especially when you take in consideration that she knew Zak personally.

She left WotC some time ago unfortunately.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 08:38 AM

Satine is no longer at WOTC. She had a one year contract to be community manager. I don’t think her time is officially up yet, but she herself put out there that a replacement is needed.

some guy

2019-04-11, 08:41 AM

Yeah, Twitter takes a certain style to be effective. His mistake is (in my view) like a certain guy living in Washington DC: too often Jeremy Tweets before he thinks through a problem. :smallcool:
I agree, Jeremy could use some coaching on that, but I honestly think he got some. A few months ago he made clear that he was declaring his tweet responses as not official rulings, saying in part that people should not have to dig through his whole tweet catalogue to get answers on the rules. For official rulings, Sage Advice Compendium is the only source. (So I hope they update that with a little more frequency)

True, Jeremy's tweets have gotten a lot better since his responses are not official rulings anymore. I think making UA not scheduled anymore took also a lot pressure of the team. JC has gotten more relaxed, in my view.

Hmm, I'll need to poke about to see what you are referring to, thanks for the tip.
(Does she work for WoTC?)

Her tweets are more laidback and focused on positive things, but then again, she never had the burden to answer official rules questions by hundreds of fans.
She works for WoTC and used to play with Zak S and his victims. Edit: ah, dang, I didn't know she doesn't work for wotc, that's too bad.

Sparky McDibben

2019-04-11, 08:44 AM

The problem with Mearls is not that he ignored people. That's bad, but not worth getting fired over. The problem is that people who told Mearls about ZS were then outed to the person they accused...by Mearls. That's the problem. And that is fireable, in my opinion.

And don't give me any nonsense about due process or being able to "face your accuser." Those protections are civil rights that guarantee certain freedoms from government restriction or interference. The job market is not subject to that. And if Mearls had a case, he would have filed a case for unlawful termination.

You are owed due process by your government. Not by your employer, nor by anyone on social media. Jesus, y'all, read the Constitution.

Misterwhisper

2019-04-11, 08:48 AM

Honestly the UAs have been so bad for so long, and delayed so many times that I just don't care about them anymore.

As far as the Mearls thing goes, he is horrible for public image.

Because of his public presence and his videos made for the company itself he has the air of a guy who is in charge, then after seeming like the guy who is at least pretty high up the food chain, he does not even get the rules of his own system correct, he builds mechanical content like a new DM who threw together some home-brew because, "hey, this sounds cool" without considering if something actually works in the system.

Not only that but I find it very bothersome when they try to market the UA's as true playtest content when MANY times it is just whatever Mearls has laying around and they throw it out there to be looked at without really ever having the intention of using it.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 08:51 AM

As someone that’s.... Look. Most of you know I’ve pestered JC a lot regarding UA stuff especially. I’ve had more than my share of interactions with him, and at times, I’ve come across as a bit of a dink on those occasions.

I own that. I acknowledge it. I’ve been less than nice and respectful on occasion.

JC, when his tweets were considered official rulings, had to walk on eggshells. I totally understand why. Some people live and die by RAW, and people would go after him a lot if something didn’t... Didnt make the most sense.

Example: JC once ruled you can’t Twin Dragon’s Breath. Absolute BS, it follows all the rules of Twinning. But I think that Twinning it was an unintended consequence of how the spell was worded.

Now that he doesn’t have to walk on eggshells, he’s free be much more relaxed on Twitter. He’s actually great to joke around with.

When asked once about silvered weapons and Monks, he said “You can’t silver a fist.”
My response: Have you even TRIED?
JC: If you have, please see a doctor immediately!

And, uh...

He’s also very cute. >_>

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 08:55 AM

I own that. I acknowledge it. I’ve been less than nice and respectful on occasion.
..
When asked once about silvered weapons and Monks, he said “You can’t silver a fist.”
My response: Have you even TRIED?
JC: If you have, please see a doctor immediately!

1) that silvered fist interaction was you? i enjoyed that.
2) he came across rude regularly, too, but he was getting paid to be rude.

some guy

2019-04-11, 08:59 AM

Sception

2019-04-11, 09:06 AM

D&D is rather vulnerable to accusations of misogyny, among various other antisocial attitudes & maladjusted behaviors, within its community and creative staff. WotC have been actively working against that perception in various ways since acquiring the brand, and have done a relatively respectable job at least compared to most other companies with similar perception issues, but you don't have to look far (Big Bang Theory) to find the lingering public perception of D&D as a product exclusively for insular, anti-social, mysogynistic manchildren.

Given the amount of corporate resources that have gone into shaking that perception, and how quickly any gains could be overturned by scandle within the creative staff itself, I'm not surprised that WotC/Hasbro would take a hard line response to something like this. Entertainment products brands depend more heavily than others on the reputations of their creators, and their financial success depend more on the perceptions of people who would be more likely to identify with ZS's accusers than his defenders at this point. That's just capitalism.

As for comparisons to James Gunn, that's not especially apt. In the Gunn situation, the outrage was much more organized, much more sudden despite not being tied to any recrnt event or revelation, and could be directly traced to people who demonstrably cared nothing about Gunn's past history of ugly jokes (an issue that had been raised, and that Gunn had publically apologised for, years before) and everything about his current political leanings and public criticism of the Trump administration.

It *was* a case of manufactured outrage and was obviously that to anyone who took the time to actually look at who the outrage was coming from. Some unknown Disney exec (probably a pretty high up one given that they haven't been ordered to fall on their sword) failed to do their due diligence, overreacted, and when the dust settled the company looked like a bunch of buffoons.

More significantly, there were never any actual allegations of harassment or abuse by Gunn. Nobody ever stepped forward to say "he assaulted me" or "he harrassed me" or "he stalked me". It was never a "me too" thing because there wasn't a "me" at all. Just old jokes in (admittedly extremely) bad taste that Gunn had already apologised for and past associations to people who had been accused of serious crimes that Gunn had already distanced himself from.

In the Zak S situation there were accusations of actual misconduct, not just off color comments, that had been floating around for a while. Where there is some overlap with the Gunn situation is that the people responsible for making the decision at the company failed to do their due diligence... but this time the incorrect response making the company look bad is an underreaction instead of an overreaction, and this time we know who was responsible for the decision, as Mearls was on record personally vouching for ZS, saying he had looked into it and the accusations didn't seem to amount to anything.

Only now, whoops, it seems they very much do amount to something rather serious, and now it actually matters that Mearls specifically messed this up not only because it makes WotC and the D&D brand look bad, but because Mearls's particular endorsement was a shield that helped ZS keep getting away with some especially bad behavior for possibly years longer than he might have otherwise.

So yeah, it kind of matters, Mearls kind of messed up in an important way, and this has nothing to do with 'mob mentality' or 'manufactured outrage' or people being 'too sensitive'. It kind of sucks that the already meager trickle of new 5e content might slow even further as a result, but there's more important stuff going on here.

Honestly I don't even personally blame Mearls for this, at least not entirely. Maybe if WotC hadn't been developing 5e on a skeleton crew with a shoe string budget they could have afforded to hire someone who knew what they were doing to look into the ZS allegations instead of leaving that rather important job to someone who had neither the time nor the expertise for it, especially when the person accused is someone he had a friendly relationship with.

But as it is, Mearls made a mistake, a mistake that he pinned his name to, one that has had some pretty serious repercussions both in PR and in actual consequences for actual people. It doesn't surprise me that he's got a social media gag on him now, and we'll just have to wait and see where it goes from here. Personally I'd put 50/50 odds on whether they just keep him quiet for 6 months and then go back to normal, possibly with another (hopefully better) apology or whether he sits out his contract in silence then is let go.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 09:06 AM

1) that silvered fist interaction was you? i enjoyed that.
2) he came across rude regularly, too, but he was getting paid to be rude.

That’s me indeed.

I’m also the one who got him to confirm Paladins can use Pact Magic slots to Smite.

Boy the official WOTC forums were set on fire over that one... if user Yunru reads this, he’ll remember. He was there when I was, before the official forums closed.

Sigreid

2019-04-11, 09:36 AM

Sparky McDibben

2019-04-11, 10:22 AM

Some of us see things moving in the direction of accusations equals guilt and think that's a bad road.

And if those accusations were leveled in a court of law, you would be absolutely correct. In public discourse, no.

Dr.Samurai

2019-04-11, 10:38 AM

The problem with Mearls is not that he ignored people. That's bad, but not worth getting fired over.
He didn't ignore people. It's pretty clear from the screenshots that he looked into the allegations.

The problem is that people who told Mearls about ZS were then outed to the person they accused...by Mearls. That's the problem.
Where is the evidence of this? How do we know that ZS didn't already know where the complaints were coming from? How do we know that it isn't obvious who is doing the complaining by the very nature of the complaint in the first place? How does one defend themselves against an anonymous complaint about harassment?

And don't give me any nonsense about due process or being able to "face your accuser." Those protections are civil rights that guarantee certain freedoms from government restriction or interference. The job market is not subject to that. And if Mearls had a case, he would have filed a case for unlawful termination.

You are owed due process by your government. Not by your employer, nor by anyone on social media. Jesus, y'all, read the Constitution.
No one is saying that Mearls is protected under the constitution here lol. What people are saying is that you're all acting like the bloodthirsty plebs at the coliseum, hoping to see someone get taken out.

Except in this case, Mearls didn't sign up to get executed for the sake of satiating a mob.

Only now, whoops, it seems they very much do amount to something rather serious, and now it actually matters that Mearls specifically messed this up not only because it makes WotC and the D&D brand look bad, but because Mearls's particular endorsement was a shield that helped ZS keep getting away with some especially bad behavior for possibly years longer than he might have otherwise.

So yeah, it kind of matters, Mearls kind of messed up in an important way, and this has nothing to do with 'mob mentality' or 'manufactured outrage' or people being 'too sensitive'. It kind of sucks that the already meager trickle of new 5e content might slow even further as a result, but there's more important stuff going on here.

....

But as it is, Mearls made a mistake, a mistake that he pinned his name to, one that has had some pretty serious repercussions both in PR and in actual consequences for actual people.

Sorry but... are you suggesting that Mearls is somehow at fault for the sexual abuse that ZS has been accused of?

And if those accusations were leveled in a court of law, you would be absolutely correct. In public discourse, no.
Eh, no. Sigreid is making a moral argument; we *should* take accusations seriously and investigate them, but not take action on accusations alone. Is this mandated by the constitution with regards to a workplace? No. But is it a good idea to operate this way? Yes, of course.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 10:48 AM

Really hope that Mearls stays with the game. He's not a polished speaker, but if you listen to his talks, he gets it. He understands the game. He knows what makes a class fun, and overall 5e has, from a creative perspective, knocked the ball out of the park. Nearly every subclass (and there are like 60-70 of them) is cool and flavorful and at least a little unique. The adventures have sometimes been crappy, but always cool and stylish.

So yeah, that's why I want him to stay on the game.

Now I'll accept that sometimes, a bad dude is a bad dude and should be kept out of the limelight. Weinstein, Spacey, etc. If that causes a production to suffer, fine.

But if all that he's getting crucified over is a failure to take immediate action when someone who wasn't his employee had non-criminal, unsupported allegations made again him... ??? What would even have been appropriate action at that point? Fire the guy? The guy didn't even work for him! And it wasn't a problem for anyone at the time, he's not getting flack for it years later because of unrelated allegations that the guy in question (who was never his employee) was also doing actually bad stuff, separate from the allegations that were being levied.

It's like... if there was a guy I collaborated with on a crappy fanfiction project years ago. Somebody said, "Hey, he cusses out random people he meets while walking" and then I said, "Does he?" and was met with silence. Then five years later it turns out the guy was a serial killer and now I'm unemployed. Its baffling.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 10:51 AM

Sparky McDibben

2019-04-11, 10:52 AM

Where is the evidence of this? How do we know that ZS didn't already know where the complaints were coming from? How do we know that it isn't obvious who is doing the complaining by the very nature of the complaint in the first place? How does one defend themselves against an anonymous complaint about harassment?

None of that applies here. First of all, there is no evidentiary standard for a company to fire someone, or even to not renew their contract. All that matters is the company wants to. That's what "at-will employment" means.

No one is saying that Mearls is protected under the constitution here lol. What people are saying is that you're all acting like the bloodthirsty plebs at the coliseum, hoping to see someone get taken out.

First off, yes, they were. When Korvin said that people should care about due process, that is an inherently constitutional argument. It does not apply to any public conversation. Second, that's an incredibly classist thing to say. And if I'm a bloodthirsty pleb for not wanting to buy art made by a sex abuser, I guess I'm a bloodthirsty pleb.

Except in this case, Mearls didn't sign up to get executed for the sake of satiating a mob.

How does one sign up for that, Dr. Samurai? Is the application process very involved?

Sorry but... are you suggesting that Mearls is somehow at fault for the sexual abuse that ZS has been accused of?

No, they're saying Mike ought to have done his job and minimized the company's liability.

Sparky McDibben

2019-04-11, 10:53 AM

I want to make one thing clear regarding how I feel about Mearls:

I do not believe Mike Mearls is a bad person.

I do think he went to bat for a very, very, very bad person.

Agree 100%. Also, I feel like we're waaaay off the beaten path here, given the original conversation was about Unearthed Arcana.

JackPhoenix

2019-04-11, 11:02 AM

Sigreid

2019-04-11, 11:17 AM

And if those accusations were leveled in a court of law, you would be absolutely correct. In public discourse, no.

I am well aware the constitution does not protect you from the public. I'm also well aware that there are a number of people on this board who hail from other countries who are not affected by the constitution at all anyway. My position is that there is precious little justice in mob justice and if as individuals we treat everyone accused as guilty and punish them we will build an ugly and terrifying society.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 11:19 AM

I want to make one thing clear regarding how I feel about Mearls:

I do not believe Mike Mearls is a bad person.

I do think he went to bat for a very, very, very bad person.
Well, that's kind of my point, yeah?

He screwed up, maybe due to a personal bias, or maybe because he felt that it wasn't his responsibility, or maybe because there honestly wasn't any evidence that the things were true. The only winning move in that situation would honestly be to just ignore all allegations entirely. As it is, he did look into them, and that seems to be the source of his trouble. He's not a bad dude. Quite the opposite.

Its asinine if he gets kicked off the team for this, after five years of stellar work.

First off, yes, they were. When Korvin said that people should care about due process, that is an inherently constitutional argument. It does not apply to any public conversation. Second, that's an incredibly classist thing to say. And if I'm a bloodthirsty pleb for not wanting to buy art made by a sex abuser, I guess I'm a bloodthirsty pleb.

No, they're saying Mike ought to have done his job and minimized the company's liability.

Kovin's comment about due process was merely to say that firing people "because there's an outcry" is a silly way of doing things, particularly if the "outcry" is pretty much baseless. In this case, I maintain that that outcry is baseless, and that MM is a victim of mob mentality.

Mob mentality isn't a classist thing. It has to do with people and groups. To put it in the words of Tommy Lee Jones: "Persons are smart. People are stupid." mobs of people, rich or poor, will do very very stupid, terrible things. Sometimes a mob can be right, of course, but the duty of everyone is to decide whether or not the mob is right before giving into them.

No one is protesting on behalf of Zak S. The 'mob' insofar as it exists, seems to be right about him. MM was wrong. He made a call, and (probably) made it wrongly. There's assertions that he revealed the names of Zak's accusers, but once again, they're just assertions. Who knows? And even then, was it malice or just a mistake?

And what if he had become convinced that Zak was a skeeve? He maybe could have gotten Zak off of the project, but he wouldn't be taking his name out of the book, since for legal reasons he couldn't take just Zak's name out and with no clear evidence he wouldn't get all the playtesters to buy-in and agree to have their names removed.

The only thing he could have done to minimize liability would be to ignore all the allegations. Pretend they didn't exist. Would this make him a better person? He might not be losing his job if he had.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 11:25 AM

Its asinine if he gets kicked off the team for this, after five years of stellar work.

I dunno, Lore Wizard and Brute Fighter are pretty ****ed :smalltongue:

2D8HP

2019-04-11, 11:33 AM

I wonder how many people would care or even know who Zak S is if WotC hadn't released that statement they're removing his name from the credits....

I did as I own some adventures he wrote, and watched him being interviewed by Satine Phoenix about a setting book he wrote, but I have only a vague idea of what he's accused of (please don't enlighten me).

I do think 100% that the publisher of those adventures/setting books authored by Zak Smith are guilty of making the type face so small that they're hard for me to read which is infuriating! I'm doubt that any more of his works will be published so that problem is solved.

As for Mearls, I only read Twitter when someone links to there, but from what I've read about the effect it and Facebook have it may be best if both Facebook and Twitter cease without replacement, perhaps all uses of Twitter and Facebook should be ostracized (I also feel that way about Amazon and e bay)?

DIE MONSTERS DIE!

Please bring back the newspapers and brick and mortar shops that have ceased instead.

Actually, while there's a few things I'll miss (DM of the Rings, OoTS, this Forum), - please just go ahead and repeal the 21st century and set back and stop things around 1999.

M'Kay?

suplee215

2019-04-11, 11:36 AM

I just want to point out, as what is usually what happens in cases like this (even if I know very little about this one) that people are assuming that we, the public with 0 actual insight in the case, know as much as the company knows. If the guy is being punished by Wizards and is going be fired or his contract revoked then I am pretty sure the company has reason to do so that goes beyond controlling PR. And chances are if that does happen that the public will never know the full story.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 11:42 AM

And that is fireable, in my opinion. Your opinion - along with that of the zero defects lynch mob of people not at WoTC (who Mike works for) - seems to be at odds with (1) the labor laws in the State of Washington and (2) WoTC. If it were fireable, he'd be fired, right?
Mike is not fired.
Maybe you know less than you think you do. (And maybe the last card has not yet been played).
That's the problem with Twittersphere smear campaigns.
Incomplete information and a signal lack of facts and background. WoTC has to determine what amount of error is acceptable.
(I don't work for WoTC, not do I have any financial interest in Hasbro nor WoTC, nor am I a personal acquaintance of Mike Mearls).

On the other hand, I think we can agree on this: the optics aren't good, hence the stepping back from the spotlight.

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 11:44 AM

Your opinion - along with that of the zero defects lynch mob of people not at WoTC who Mike works for - seem to be at odds with (1) the labor laws in the State of Washington and (2) WoTC. If it were fireable, he'd be fired, right?
Mike is not fired.
Maybe you know less than you think you do.
That's the problem with Twittersphere smear campaigns.
Incomplete information and a signal lack of all the facts and background, and what amount of error is acceptable.
(I don't work for WoTC, not do I have any financial interest in Hasbro nor WoTC, nor am I a personal acquaintance of Mike Mearls).

On the other hand, I think we can agree on this: the optics aren't good, hence the stepping back from the spotlight.

Hold on here.

There's lots of times when someone commits a fireable offense, and not be fired.

Whiskeyjack8044

2019-04-11, 11:47 AM

The "Mob Mentality" keeps getting brought up, but I'm not sure why. A mob of people didn't encircle WotC and demand Mearls' head on a pike. If he gets fired at all, it will be because of his bosses and peers, not a mob. He was asked to make an Investigation in an official capacity, then he made a bad call in a tactless way as a representative of WotC. Actual human people were hurt because WotC didn't heed the warnings. Now the people in charge would be justified for sacrificing him for his mistake. That said, I don't think they will.

He isn't an HR rep, he isn't a PR expert, I think WotC has merely asked him not to contribute in those areas. I think we are jumping at shadows and that the UA dried up because they are trying to get the Artificer just right so they can release it. They are probably focusing on that internally and are reluctant to let us playtest something else.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 11:49 AM

Hold on here.

There's lots of times when someone commits a fireable offense, and not be fired.
I do not find it appropriate for people to be calling for someone's head (job, really). Seriously. Third parties demanding someone be fired, on incomplete information, are a dime a dozen in the Twittersphere age.
"Fireable" isn't a digital on off switch; details and circumstances matter.
Not sure how many people you have hired and fired. I've got a bit of experience with that.

Someone up thread made what I thought was an astute guess (might have been you): WoTC may find it easier to wait for his current contract to expire and simply not renew. That's a hell of a lot less risky for them than a "termination for cause" that is challengeable. In the meantime, less spotlight.

@WhiskeyJack8044 - the mob operates in a virtual space: the Twittersphere.

I also may be slightly overstating the case to make a point.

For Sparky:
Agree 100%. Also, I feel like we're waaaay off the beaten path here, given the original conversation was about Unearthed Arcana. You are right, sorry if I overreacted a bit there.

I just noted your personal boycott point: just like mine to do with Russian vodka, if you go back to my earlier reply to jaappleton. I guess I'm a bloodthirsty pleb (however one says that in Russian) too, since 1983.

Max_Killjoy

2019-04-11, 12:01 PM

First off, yes, they were. When Korvin said that people should care about due process, that is an inherently constitutional argument. It does not apply to any public conversation. Second, that's an incredibly classist thing to say. And if I'm a bloodthirsty pleb for not wanting to buy art made by a sex abuser, I guess I'm a bloodthirsty pleb.

While the literal standards of due process and "innocent until proven guilty" are only applicable regarding the state's interactions with citizens, it's also reasonable to call on people to wait for the facts to emerge and make rational judgements rather than kneejerk.

Part of the problem here is that we have competing kneejerks, one to assume that all accusations are deliberate falsehoods until proven otherwise beyond even a criminal court level of reasonable doubt, and one to assume that all accusations must be believed and considered true by default in the effort to take them seriously.

We don't have "reasonable" vs "the bloody plebs" in either direction, we just have two sets of equally irrational gut reactions, and the demand by those who feel those reactions that everyone else must also abide by them or be called names and risk losing their jobs and being shunned and so on.

I'm not going to make a statement about Mearls because I do not know and do no have easy access to all the facts -- what did he know, when did he know it, what assumptions did he make, etc.

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 12:16 PM

Maybe you know less than you think you do.

cuts both ways, mate.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 12:25 PM

cuts both ways, mate.

Right, but his argument is just to withhold judgement.

Dr.Samurai

2019-04-11, 12:42 PM

None of that applies here. First of all, there is no evidentiary standard for a company to fire someone, or even to not renew their contract. All that matters is the company wants to. That's what "at-will employment" means.
*You* made the claim, not WotC. I'm asking *you* for evidence. You don't hold yourself to any standards when you're accusing people of wrongdoing? That's convenient.

First off, yes, they were. When Korvin said that people should care about due process, that is an inherently constitutional argument. It does not apply to any public conversation.
No, it's pretty clear from context what Korvin was getting at, which is *other people's reactions* to what might be happening with Mearls at WotC. Don't jump the gun. It's in the constitution for a reason, because it is a sound principle to live by. Yes, it should inform public conversation. You wouldn't want me to simply accuse you of something and have everyone believe it and take action on nothing more than that.

Second, that's an incredibly classist thing to say.
Uh oh. Someone has taken offense at something on the internet. I hope I make it out of here with my job and my life intact...

And if I'm a bloodthirsty pleb for not wanting to buy art made by a sex abuser, I guess I'm a bloodthirsty pleb.
You're a bloodthirsty pleb if you think Mearls should be fired over the scant evidence people keep alluding to. From what I've seen, the guy didn't do anything worth you or most other people calling for his firing.

No, they're saying Mike ought to have done his job and minimized the company's liability.
No no. It reads like they're implying he is somewhat at fault for the actions ZS has now been accused of.

The "Mob Mentality" keeps getting brought up, but I'm not sure why. A mob of people didn't encircle WotC and demand Mearls' head on a pike. If he gets fired at all, it will be because of his bosses and peers, not a mob.
So on the one hand... WotC is a profit-driven company that needs to concern itself with PR and future sales, and so it makes sense to fire him.

But on the other hand, everyone responding to the Tweet Mearls posted and all the other social media backlash are meaningless...

He was asked to make an Investigation in an official capacity, then he made a bad call in a tactless way as a representative of WotC. Actual human people were hurt because WotC didn't heed the warnings.
Actual people were hurt because of Mearls? Where is the proof for this?

We don't have "reasonable" vs "the bloody plebs" in either direction, we just have two sets of equally irrational gut reactions, and the demand by those who feel those reactions that everyone else must also abide by them or be called names and risk losing their jobs and being shunned and so on.
I was pointed at some screenshots for evidence. I saw them. It's a giant nothing-burger. I asked for more evidence and I was told it doesn't apply to the court of public opinion. We have very little to go on. My stance was if he gets fired over what little I've seen/heard, it would be pretty insane.

I do not equate that stance with "Mearls is responsible for the sexual abuse that ZS has been accused of".

Where do people get off making claims like his actions caused real hurt to people? By her own admission, the woman that came out against ZS has done things that undoubtedly caused more harm than what Mearls did five years ago. But we'll make excuses for her because she was in an abusive relationship and is now confessing. But somehow it's impossible to believe that Mearls really didn't see evidence of harassment at the time, and made what he believed was the only choice he could make with what was presented to him. No, instead he callously ignored clear evidence and then betrayed those poor souls to the very monster that was tormenting them. And no evidence for this is required, and this directly enabled sexual abuse. I can't roll my eyes hard enough.

It seems like the people most willing to see someone go down for something like this, are the last ones that should be making these kinds of determinations.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 12:47 PM

cuts both ways, mate.
Absolutely true.
The difference is, I make no pretense of knowing, nor am I trying to judge* him.
WoTC will decide if they want to keep him or not.

(*Beyond my judgment that he needs to improve his youtube/video presentation skillz. I have enough data points on that)

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 01:00 PM

Right, but his argument is just to withhold judgement.

No, Korvin's argument is that the "lynch mob" made WOTC take action.

He reiterated that explicitly.
he did not clarify whether
WotC knew and would have swept it under the rug, only to have to take action now that it's public, or
whether WotC rushed to a decision to bow to the mob. (Given his due process comments, safe bet that he thinks WotC caved under public pressure)

He explicitly chastised me for allowing that WotC could have been or is doing an investigation based on the info that just appeared and this is the result.

Oh, and to be fair, I, too, have experience hiring and firing folks over these type of events.

Max_Killjoy

2019-04-11, 01:07 PM

Reading between the lines on various posts, it's pretty easy to see the dueling kneejerk sociopolitical narratives just based on the slang and terminology being used... certain terms and phrases that make it clear which tribe someone has adopted the assumptions of.

I've said my piece regarding this quagmire, and I'm not getting dragged any further into it.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 01:08 PM

No, Korvin's argument is that the "lynch mob" made WOTC take action.
No, it is not. It is those calling for Mearl's firing that I am so characterize.

Mike seems to have gotten hit by the frag pattern for the bomb that went off when Zak's unsavory utterances became associated with the D&D brand. WoTC could not just sit there and do nothing. It was their name that was begin sullied by association, and for them brand/name is important to the success of this product line. (And profit) (And apparently, it was more than utterances with Zak that led to that decision).

Go back to my first post. What WoTC did in re ZakS strikes me as "new information led to a decision" that was (IMO) a sound one. Yeah, it's a shame that people with credits will be punished (well, their well earned credits will not be displayed in future print runs) due to one of the contributors being someone WoTC wishes to have no association with. But they (the other contributors) aren't losing their jobs. Not a "lynch mob" but a case of brand image management, and a prudent one.

It's "hammer Mearls" message that I find to be undesirable. That's what got me to use that bit of hyperbole. But as I've watched the use and abuse of electronic communications over the past forty years (radio, tv, internet, twitter, etc) I find the "instant outrage" reflexes on Twitter to resemble nothing so much as a meat space lynch mob ... psychology of group behavior, 101.

Another point of view is that a good company will take corrective action when they become aware that their staff handled things inappropriately.
WoTC took action in their public disassociation with Zak. Your opinion on what "good" and appropriate was an allusion to what?
Zak? (in which case we agree)
Mearls? (in which case we disagree).

Misterwhisper

2019-04-11, 01:14 PM

I personally don't care what he did regarding any other employees, I just want him to stop trying to design mechanics.

He is an idea guy and big picture guy but honestly he is pretty horrible at rules mechanics.

I have a problem with the UA in general that has nothing to do with MM, but he doesn't help the situation.

Daphne

2019-04-11, 01:14 PM

WotC hired new people recently (https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/dd-new-faces-at-wizards-of-the-coast.html), so maybe he is getting fired after all...

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 01:17 PM

No, it is not. It is those calling for Mearl's firing that I am so characterize.
(And apparently, it was more than utterances with Zak that led to that decision).

Go back to my first post.

This first post?

So back in January / February of this year, all these allegations came to light and gained a ton of momentum. WOTC removed the entire Contributors section of the PHB credits (Legally they couldn't just remove one person, so they spoke to all the other contributors and they all had no issue with this) and disowned Zak S. Mike Mearls has since gone dark, social media blackout.
Welcome to modern reality: the lynch mob mentality of a small town has spread to the whole world, or a given community, thanks to modern social media. Sometimes it is has a benfit, sometimes not.

cuz this looks explicitly like you blaming the mob for WOTC's finally taking action.

if that isn't what you said, then...

jaappleton

2019-04-11, 01:18 PM

WotC hired new people recently (https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/dd-new-faces-at-wizards-of-the-coast.html), so maybe he is getting fired after all...

I know Dan Dillon. Decent guy, from all my interactions.

Not familiar with Schneider, so I can't speak on him.

Dan isn't experienced enough to take a Lead Designer role. He'll be the first to tell you that. This isn't a knock on him, but he's the kind of guy that won't do it until he's confident he's ready.

I believe Kate Welch is heavily involved in Ghosts of Saltmarch. She also did some of the work on Volo's, I believe.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 01:21 PM

This first post?
cuz this looks explicitly like you blaming the mob for WOTC's finally taking action.

if that isn't what you said, then...
You are invited to read my post again, (not the first one, the one you responded to).
I was making an edit as you crafted this.
You seem to have chosen to read something into that first post, or, maybe I was less than clear (in which case the error is mine).

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 01:26 PM

You are invited to read my post again, (not the first one, the one you responded to).
I was making an edit as you crafted this.
You seem to have chosen to read something into that first post, or, maybe I was less than clear (in which case the error is mine).

the one i responded to IS your first one in this thread.

Anderlith

2019-04-11, 01:26 PM

So... Since a lot of political views are being expressed & haven’t been Mod scrubbed I’ll loosen up a bit. Years ago I got an infraction by bringing up the Bible while discussing Supernatural (tv show) lore so I’ve always been more guarded. First responding to most anyone who quoted me, I’m sorry if I left anyone out.

You seem to be hating on Perkins.
Yes, I dislike Perkins are a creative lead, he tells people what to focus on & is probably why we keep seeing so much MtG crossover bs, & some other “new directions” that I don’t like. I also dislike Crawford for a handful of reasons, but not enough to really get upset over.

5e isn't suffering from a bad image.
The “old guard” who really like 5e but are being left by the wayside have a different opinion. I participate on several forums/discords/Swiss Breadmaking sites/etc & always feel the same consensus, 5e is struggling to balance new & old fan bases.

What level of scrutiny is it you're finding excessive here?

The scrutiny of the internet. The fact that every single comment or remark is recorded & can be used against you years later regardless of context or changes of opinion.

Now,
As for Mearls & Mob mentality. Look at what is going on with Terese Nielsen. Her own colleague is calling her a Nazi for her beliefs. There could very well be a big uprising against Mearls just because of his proximity to ZakS & WotC is gagging him so it will die down without turning into an issue. Or they are getting rid of him to save face.

As for Mearls as a designer, most people don’t understand that UA is in fact playtest material & sometimes the creative process is lacking. That’s WHY the UA exists, so that they can understand the feelings of their users. Lore Wizard was OP that’s why they haven’t released it, Artificer was terrible at first but now it’s looking like it could be something really good. Sometimes your inspired & sometimes you throw crap at the wall to see what sticks.

Most people are railing against Mearls for being uncouth in the spotlight...
You do realize that D&D was a hobby almost explicitly played by uncouth people in their own homes & not attractive voice actors in front of a camera not but five years ago right? & this is where the heart of the issue is for me. Mearls represents “old D&D” not “progressive & new D&D”. To some, he needs to be fired because he doesn’t “fit in” anymore. (Kinda sadly ironic considering that’s how D&D came to be in the first place)

It’s my opinion that almost all of the work being done is him. I feel like he is the only guy there actually trying to make material, while the rest of the company just wants to advertise the game on as many podcasts & twitters & whatnot as possible.

Chunkosaurus

2019-04-11, 01:39 PM

I dunno, Lore Wizard and Brute Fighter are pretty ****ed :smalltongue:

I will go to bat for the Brute Fighter. It was a good subclass that everyone crapped on for no good reason

Anderlith

2019-04-11, 01:49 PM

I will go to bat for the Brute Fighter. It was a good subclass that everyone crapped on for no good reason

Be careful, in five years Brute Fighter might preform terribly & your account could be suspended

Misterwhisper

2019-04-11, 01:50 PM

I will go to bat for the Brute Fighter. It was a good subclass that everyone crapped on for no good reason

Because it was literally just a copied and pasted Champion fighter with better abilities at early levels.

It was like they just went, ok so champion is kind of crap, lets make it better.
Same way they did with the revised ranger.

Everyone knew that it was never going to hit print as soon as it came out.

Dr.Samurai

2019-04-11, 01:53 PM

Be careful, in five years Brute Fighter might preform terribly & your account could be suspended
This person gets it.

Daphne

2019-04-11, 01:53 PM

I will go to bat for the Brute Fighter. It was a good subclass that everyone crapped on for no good reason

This, I loved the concept. It just needed more unique features.

suplee215

2019-04-11, 01:55 PM

Most people are railing against Mearls for being uncouth in the spotlight...
You do realize that D&D was a hobby almost explicitly played by uncouth people in their own homes & not attractive voice actors in front of a camera not but five years ago right? & this is where the heart of the issue is for me. Mearls represents “old D&D” not “progressive & new D&D”. To some, he needs to be fired because he doesn’t “fit in” anymore. (Kinda sadly ironic considering that’s how D&D came to be in the first place)

It’s my opinion that almost all of the work being done is him. I feel like he is the only guy there actually trying to make material, while the rest of the company just wants to advertise the game on as many podcasts & twitters & whatnot as possible.

I've seen this fear from old D&D players a lot that the new popularity of the game is trying to kick them and out and stuff and it just isn't true. You guys aren't being kicked out because you're nerds and this is no longer a nerd game. Hell, the "attractive voice actors" you're most likely referring have some who were playing long ago and is just as much part of the "old guard" as you are. I'm relatively new to D&D. I got into it due to Critical Role. I currently DM and we have a mix of players. The people who've been playing multiple editions get along with the newer ones for the most part with the only exception being for a guy who is a bit of an ass both in play style and outside. But it isn't because he's an old player that there is issues. Another old player just joined and he gets along great. I find that most people who claim they are being kicked out of the hobby is due to themselves being an ahole and so they find themselves isolated.

As for Mearls being uncloth, if your job includes being a public face of a company and interacting with the public through multiple social media and other platforms then it doesn't hurt to try to brush up on that part of the job which is all it seems like people are asking for.

Willie the Duck

2019-04-11, 01:59 PM

I wonder how many people would care or even know who Zak S is if WotC hadn't released that statement they're removing his name from the credits. From what I've heard about the guy, he'll see even negative publicity as a plus.

It's mostly pointless, anyway. It's not like I (and the millions of other people who apparently bought 5e books before that statement) will get my 1st printing PHB replaced with one without his name (and with the latest errata).

Zak S is a big name in a small subset of the fandom. Most people would not have heard of him if not for this removal... or the lack of this removal. If Zak's actions had come to light, and WotC hadn't made a statement about him, that would have been the news you might have heard that would make people know or care who Zak S is.

As to people not getting their 1st printings replaced, well no, the action is symbolic. It is WotC's reaction that people are watching. However, I do not think WotC is wrong for having acted*. All it took was a depressed kid, some steam tunnels, and an overzealous media (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dallas_Egbert_III)to make TSR the scapegoat last time around, WotC hedging their bets on being proactive is in no way bad strategy.
*in rebutting ZS, no comment on Mearls as they haven't actually done anything that we no of in that regard, so far as we actually know

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 02:24 PM

the one i responded to IS your first one in this thread. Aaah, we are not making progress, let's let it go.
There are consequences for using a bit of hyperbole, and that's on me. :smalleek:

As for Mearls being uncloth, if your job includes being a public face of a company and interacting with the public through multiple social media and other platforms then it doesn't hurt to try to brush up on that part of the job which is all it seems like people are asking for. Yeah, grow into the role. :smallcool:

Sception

2019-04-11, 02:31 PM

No no. It reads like they're implying he is somewhat at fault for the actions ZS has now been accused of.

Mearls is important and respected in the tabletop rpg field. As small as that field is, he is influential within it. When Mearls put his name and influence behind ZS, when he said the accusations against ZS weren't true and didnt amount to anything, that makes it that much more difficult for victims to come forward, and when they do it makes it that much harder for them to be taken seriously, and that helps people like ZS get away with and perpetuate their bad behavior.

Does this make Mearls responsible in some sense? Not legally. But it does mean it might be worth questioning the position and influence yhat he has. He's not responsible for ZS's bad actions, but is in part respondible for increasing ZS's profile, lending legitimacy to him, increasing the number of people he had access to, and increasing the difficulty of holding him accountable.

That doesn't mean I think he should be fired (or his contract not renewed or whatever). Just that I wouldn't personally think some terrible injustice had occured if he was. I certainly wouldn't see it as "bowing to the mob" because I've yet to see this supposed mob. I saw a facebook tgread of people understandably dissatisfied with his hanfling of the situation, but not any consistant calls that he be fired. Does such a push exist somewhere I haven't yet seen?

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 02:36 PM

Mearls is important and respected in the tabletop rpg field. As small as that field is, he is influential within it. When Mearls put his name and influence behind ZS, when he said the accusations against ZS weren't true and didnt amount to anything, that makes it that much more difficult for victims to come forward, and when they do it makes it that much harder for them to be taken seriously ...
I don't understand this line of thought ...

I saw a facebook tgread of people understandably dissatisfied with his hanfling of the situation, but not any consistant calls that he be fired. Does such a push exist somewhere I haven't yet seen?It doesn't take long from something on farcebook or tritter to go viral. But as I used such hyperbole in my first comment to jaappleton, then that's on me for overstating the case.

suplee215

2019-04-11, 03:00 PM

I don't understand this line of thought ...

This line of thought is pretty simple and pretty common when talking about topics like this. Basically, sexual harassment and similar things go unreported a lot. These type of things is one of the most unreported crimes (when they are crimes) in the country. And part of it is that victims do not think they will be taken seriously if they do. And seeing someone in a position of power (such as Mike Mearls) just casually dismiss accusations or go to bat for someone accused does not make people feel any more comfortable about coming forward.

NaughtyTiger

2019-04-11, 03:17 PM

"Good" company is one that acts to protect employees from harassment and abuse.
Zak - if the accounts are true then yes kick him to the curb.
Mearls - if the accounts are true then damn, he is should be in trouble. here is why:

if Mearls was not Zak's supervisor, then he had no business doing the investigation.
if Mearls was Zak's supervisor, then given their personal relationship, he had no business doing the investigation.

the email/text that Mearls sent to Zak outing his accusers would have violated HR investigation rules for all 3 companies that i have worked for, in addition to betraying the victims' trust.
his involvement in the investigation and mishandling of private data (ie, I should never have seen that email) means that Mearls has put WotC at risk.
in my 20 years in industry, private details of a firing of one of my direct reports has never been leaked.

that said, based on testimonials from the victims, WotC is not a "good" company.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 03:34 PM

Zak - if the accounts are true then yes kick him to the curb.
Mearls - if the accounts are true then damn, he is should be in trouble. here is why:

if Mearls was not Zak's supervisor, then he had no business doing the investigation.
if Mearls was Zak's supervisor, then given their personal relationship, he had no business doing the investigation.

the email/text that Mearls sent to Zak outing his accusers would have violated HR investigation rules for all 3 companies that i have worked for, in addition to betraying the victims' trust.
his involvement in the investigation and mishandling of private data (ie, I should never have seen that email) means that Mearls has put WotC at risk.
in my 20 years in industry, private details of a firing of one of my direct reports has never been leaked.

that said, based on testimonials from the victims, WotC is not a "good" company.
Thank you for clarifying your position.
With my experience in dealing with sexual harassment issues, there's some fouls there, yeah. :smallmad:

private details of a firing of one of my direct reports has never been leaked. That is how it should be handled.
Newsflash: in the information age, leaks are all too common. (I suppose you knew that already)/
It takes extra effort to prevent them. (I suppose you knew that already).

This line of thought is pretty simple and pretty common when talking about topics like this. Basically, sexual harassment and similar things go unreported a lot. These type of things is one of the most unreported crimes (when they are crimes) in the country. And part of it is that victims do not think they will be taken seriously if they do. And seeing someone in a position of power (such as Mike Mearls) just casually dismiss accusations or go to bat for someone accused does not make people feel any more comfortable about coming forward. If someone screws me over, I fight.
This line of thought is pretty simple and pretty common when talking about topics like this.
That's how I look at things.
That's how my life has been.
No, I have not won every fight, but that haasn't stopped me from pushing back when I get pushed. (And it caused me a lot of trouble in two different assignments. Such is life).

I have a very hard time understanding people who don't.

Yes, I realize that each person is different in dealing with confrontation and trouble. Sometimes, people need to have someone in their corner, or feel that someone is in their corner, before they step into the ring.

Zonugal

2019-04-11, 03:48 PM

For myself, I don't see how WOTC can really move forward as long as they are wearing this proverbial black eye.

Any future products produced/published can be open to the same question of, "Did any serial harassers work on this product as well?"

Without WOTC displaying some form of company judgment/action against the incident, it'll continue to be a black eye for them.

Personally I believe Mearls has been silenced till his contract is up, then he'll be let go. WOTC isn't big enough to just hope this incident escapes the spotlight over time, primarily because the company is so small that any incident of this size will continue to follow it like a dark storm.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 03:50 PM

This line of thought is pretty simple and pretty common when talking about topics like this. Basically, sexual harassment and similar things go unreported a lot. These type of things is one of the most unreported crimes (when they are crimes) in the country. And part of it is that victims do not think they will be taken seriously if they do. And seeing someone in a position of power (such as Mike Mearls) just casually dismiss accusations or go to bat for someone accused does not make people feel any more comfortable about coming forward.
Except that he didn't casually dismiss the claims. Despite not being Zak's supervisor, he did a small amount of quick checking, which was more than he needed to do and probably more than he should have done.

Thank you for clarifying your position.
With my experience in dealing with sexual harassment issues, there's some fouls there, yeah. :smallmad:
That is how it should be handled.
Newsflash: in the information age, leaks are all too common. (I suppose you knew that already)/
It takes extra effort to prevent them. (I suppose you knew that already).

And just to reiterate, it's known that KS got ahold of the names from somewhere. How or why is anyone's guess. It might have been obvious from the nature of the complaints.

As to the supervisor/non thing, that seems like an issue. So what I'm hearing all round is that he shouldn't have investigated the rumors at all.

Anderlith

2019-04-11, 03:53 PM

Zonugal

2019-04-11, 03:55 PM

It’s too small to survive Mearls being let go. He is the one guy on the group project that does all the work.

Perhaps if your game system can't survive its lead designer being let go, maybe, it shouldn't survive at all.

Mearls isn't an actual wizard, they can hire other people to do the job.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-04-11, 03:59 PM

It’s too small to survive Mearls being let go. He is the one guy on the group project that does all the work.

I'm not sure that's really fair to say about the rest of WoTC, him being a lead designer doesn't make him the only designer. There's also plenty of talent to pick from nowadays, with DND being as popular as it is.

Sure, he's got pretty big shoes that would need to be filled but it's not an impossible task.

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 04:01 PM

And just to reiterate, it's known that KS got ahold of the names from somewhere. How or why is anyone's guess. It might have been obvious from the nature of the complaints. Do you mean ZS? KS wants to know. :smallwink:

It’s too small to survive Mearls being let go. He is the one guy on the group project that does all the work. Foggy memory tells me that of the team that worked to make 5e happen, after release, or not too long after release, about 80% were reassigned or let go? (This is hearsay, so if I have that wrong please correct me).

I know a guy who applied for the community manager position that Satine vacated. Not sure if he'll get it, but he's hopeful.

Boci

2019-04-11, 04:02 PM

WOTC isn't big enough to just hope this incident escapes the spotlight over time, primarily because the company is so small that any incident of this size will continue to follow it like a dark storm.

It’s too small to survive Mearls being let go. He is the one guy on the group project that does all the work.

If both these statement are true, that just means WotC needs to reprimand Mearls without firing him, and companies do typically have several options along those lines (though Mearls could force WotC's hand by refusing to co-operate with such lesser measures.)

That said, I don't think either is true. I don't think WotC would crash if it decides to ignore the problem. It would suffer but it will pull though. I certainly don't think they can't survive without Mearls, and tyhat's assuming WotC here means D&D 5th ed and not the actual WotC, which own MtG.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 04:02 PM

KorvinStarmast

2019-04-11, 04:06 PM

I doubt, for example, that your average critter even knows who Mearls is. Your average AL player knows even less. Heh, I read that as "the average player probably did not read the introduction and foreward to the PHB." I'll not bet against you. :smallcool:

ProsecutorGodot

2019-04-11, 04:09 PM

Honestly I think that almost no one who plays the game will hear about or care about this news. Nobody here was talking about it until jaapleton brought it up, and as far as internet communities go we're pretty well informed.

I doubt, for example, that your average critter even knows who Mearls is. Your average AL player knows even less.

Chris Perkins has appeared on Critical Role twice and I wouldn't be shocked if a casual fan of the show didn't know what he does for DND, so I'd say this is probably true. I, personally, only knew that this was an issue before this thread popped up because of a news feed I happened to see. I don't even recall what site it was on.

I'd agree that a majority of players might not look too deep into this issue, but WotC being a booming company has bigger eyes looking at them. Namely, Hasbro who might see this as a larger issue. That's pure conjecture on my part though.

Boci

2019-04-11, 04:09 PM

Heh, I read that as "the average player probably did not read the introduction and foreward to the PHB." I'll not bet against you. :smallcool:

Or "read but didn't remember the name". I once knew the names of the writers credited with the 20th anniversary edition of V:tM because I wrote an essay on it and needed to reference them in a foot note and source list, but I wouldn't recognize the names now.

FORT MINOR!

Zonugal

2019-04-11, 04:09 PM

Honestly I think that almost no one who plays the game will hear about or care about this news. Nobody here was talking about it until jaapleton brought it up, and as far as internet communities go we're pretty well informed.

I doubt, for example, that your average critter even knows who Mearls is. Your average AL player knows even less.

Another community I am a part of, which is hardly D&D focused, has known about it since it happened.

And even if WOTC just sleeps on the issue, how do you imagine they would combat any future complaints?

How do you imagine they confront a very small minority within their consumer base from continually bringing up that their lead designer may have facilitated alleged harassment from a system consultant?

This isn't something you can just hope sinks away because you'll always have people bringing it up.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 04:19 PM

Another community I am a part of, which is hardly D&D focused, has known about it since it happened.

And even if WOTC just sleeps on the issue, how do you imagine they would combat any future complaints?

How do you imagine they confront a very small minority within their consumer base from continually bringing up that their lead designer may have facilitated alleged harassment from a system consultant?

This isn't something you can just hope sinks away because you'll always have people bringing it up.

Penny Arcade got a lot of flack a few years back for some jokes about some phallic dogs. It was a huge capstorm. Compared to that, this was small potatoes. Mearls isn't as public. These jokes were on the front page. Mearls' level of wrongdoing here is pretty much all hearsay.

When was the last time you heard the penny Arcade thing being brought up?

Oh yeah, and WotC just published something they wrote.

Zonugal

2019-04-11, 04:29 PM

Penny Arcade got a lot of flack a few years back for some jokes about some phallic dogs. It was a huge capstorm.

When was the last time you heard that brought up?

Literally last week.

Oh yeah, and WotC just published something they wrote.

Penny Arcade as a company, and its two leads, have also both issues professional and personal apologies regarding the incident. So it isn't exactly in the same boat as the one we're discussing here.

suplee215

2019-04-11, 04:34 PM

Except that he didn't casually dismiss the claims. Despite not being Zak's supervisor, he did a small amount of quick checking, which was more than he needed to do and probably more than he should have done.

.

And this is where things being subjective goes in. "Small amount of quick checking" by someone who as far as I know by someone with no expert in investigation isn't much. Especially as the names of the accusers somehow got back to the accused and there are reports it came from him. I'm more of a mind this just comes from Mearls being in over his head for how to handle this type of situation that should have just been passed on to HR or something similar.

Luccan

2019-04-11, 04:57 PM

And this is where things being subjective goes in. "Small amount of quick checking" by someone who as far as I know by someone with no expert in investigation isn't much. Especially as the names of the accusers somehow got back to the accused and there are reports it came from him. I'm more of a mind this just comes from Mearls being in over his head for how to handle this type of situation that should have just been passed on to HR or something similar.

Emphasis mine. I understand there are reasons people believe this, but does anyone actually have hard evidence on that? It's certainly not impossible, I won't even say it's unlikely, I'd just like to know if anyone has anything besides "well he could have". Also, bringing this up: my understanding is he got reports of verbal harassment, not sexual harassment. Both of which are bad, but I've seen people on this post saying the second, when I've only seen evidence of the first.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 05:17 PM

Literally last week.

Penny Arcade as a company, and its two leads, have also both issues professional and personal apologies regarding the incident. So it isn't exactly in the same boat as the one we're discussing here.
Last week, eh?

Is this "other, non-dnd community" a community dealing with feminism and sexual harassment related news?

And yes, they issued an apology, but not for the comic. Only for the nearly-a-year-long campaign they ran making fun of and profiting off of the outrage. Then two years later they reignited the controversy and reapologized.

By contrast, Mearls goofed an unofficial investigation and maybe leaked some information. Is he for some reason unable to apologize, when penny Arcade was??

And this is where things being subjective goes in. "Small amount of quick checking" by someone who as far as I know by someone with no expert in investigation isn't much. Especially as the names of the accusers somehow got back to the accused and there are reports it came from him. I'm more of a mind this just comes from Mearls being in over his head for how to handle this type of situation that should have just been passed on to HR or something similar.

Yeah he definitely goofed. Not arguing that point. No Twitter for a few months is probably fair. It'd be a shame to lose him over this.

2D8HP

2019-04-11, 05:29 PM

...seeing someone in a position of power (such as Mike Mearls) just casually dismiss accusations or go to bat for someone accused....

AFAIK Zak Smith was one of many who were consulted for opinions on what became 5e while it was still in development so (and I'll probably regret asking this) I'm curious about how exactly Mike Medals is supposed to have "gone to bat" for him?
EDIT:

"Good" company is one that acts to protect employees from harassment and abuse.
Zak - if the accounts are true then yes kick him to the curb.
Mearls - if the accounts are true then damn, he is should be in trouble. here is why:

if Mearls was not Zak's supervisor, then he had no business doing the investigation.
if Mearls was Zak's supervisor, then given their personal relationship, he had no business doing the investigation.

the email/text that Mearls sent to Zak outing his accusers would have violated HR investigation rules for all 3 companies that i have worked for, in addition to betraying the victims' trust.
his involvement in the investigation and mishandling of private data (ie, I should never have seen that email) means that Mearls has put WotC at risk.
in my 20 years in industry, private details of a firing of one of my direct reports has never been leaked.

that said, based on testimonials from the victims, WotC is not a "good" company. (emphasis in quote is mine)

Okay, I don't know the context, but "the email/text that Mearls sent to Zak outing his accusers" sounds pretty bad, I'm suprised that no one mentioned it upthread.

Penny Arcade got a lot of flack a few years back for some jokes about some phallic dogs. It was a huge capstorm. Compared to that, this was small potatoes. Mearls isn't as public. These jokes were on the front page. Mearls' level of wrongdoing here is pretty much all hearsay.

When was the last time you heard the penny Arcade thing being brought up?...

I've never heard of that "dogs" thing before ever.

suplee215

2019-04-11, 05:32 PM

Also, bringing this up: my understanding is he got reports of verbal harassment, not sexual harassment. Both of which are bad, but I've seen people on this post saying the second, when I've only seen evidence of the first.

I admit I am unfamiliar with this and unsure if it was sexual harassment or "verbal" harassment. I also have not heard the term "verbal harassment" before and am unsure exactly what you are referring to by it. Sexual harassment can be exclusively verbal which so if you mean something like "he made lewd comments of a sexual nature after being told to stop" that is still sexual harassment although if you mean "he just kept talking to someone who didn't want to talk to him" then i can see that as different. I've only seen a few articles on the subject that didn't go into much detail.

Luccan

2019-04-11, 06:32 PM

Sigreid

2019-04-11, 06:36 PM

I admit I am unfamiliar with this and unsure if it was sexual harassment or "verbal" harassment. I also have not heard the term "verbal harassment" before and am unsure exactly what you are referring to by it. Sexual harassment can be exclusively verbal which so if you mean something like "he made lewd comments of a sexual nature after being told to stop" that is still sexual harassment although if you mean "he just kept talking to someone who didn't want to talk to him" then i can see that as different. I've only seen a few articles on the subject that didn't go into much detail.

It is perfectly possible to be such an a-hole in dealing with a person or persons that it counts as harassment even if there's nothing sexual about it.

Now, what I think will be my final statement on this stuff. If the whole thing is over accusations with no evidence or corroboration, none of this should have happened. If there is evidence or corroboration, WoTC should have released a statement that given the current information they can not continue their association with a non-company partner who appears to have engaged in behavior that is unacceptable so they are terminating that relationship immediately. If there's evidence of criminal activity, WoTC should have cooperated in a legal investigation.

I'm a stickler for some kind of evidence or corroboration before consequences because I have had women brag to me about lying to get themselves out of trouble by getting some poor guy into it. Some people lie. Women are no better or worse than any other group on that point. This doesn't mean all accusations shouldn't be taken seriously and indeed all accusations should be investigated by a trained and competent professional or team. I can't go there with what are essentially rumors on the internet though.

Dr.Samurai

2019-04-11, 06:54 PM

Zak S is a big name in a small subset of the fandom. Most people would not have heard of him if not for this removal... or the lack of this removal. If Zak's actions had come to light, and WotC hadn't made a statement about him, that would have been the news you might have heard that would make people know or care who Zak S is.
I did not know about *any* of this until this thread. And I searched to see what the "facts" were and thought I'd find something so damning as to scratch my head and wonder why Mearls hasn't been dragged through the streets to the masses shouting "shame, shame, shame".

Instead... it's much like this thread actually. He's asking for evidence, and not getting any. Coincidence? lol

But anyways, the point is I'd never even heard the name Zak S before yesterday (or the day before?). And I sure hope that this doesn't get blown out of proportion anymore than it already has.

Does this make Mearls responsible in some sense? Not legally. But it does mean it might be worth questioning the position and influence yhat he has. He's not responsible for ZS's bad actions, but is in part respondible for increasing ZS's profile, lending legitimacy to him, increasing the number of people he had access to, and increasing the difficulty of holding him accountable.
I can't agree with this. Firstly, there is no proof even now. Yes, allegations have been made. Yes, I am inclined to believe the accuser. But the allegations have been denied. From this though, we're supposed to feel vindication because five years ago Mearls was told that this guy hates people and when he looked into it he didn't think there was enough merit to do anything?

So no proof then, no proof now, but it's okay if Mearls gets fired? I don't think so. This guy Zak, and even the woman accusing him, did way worse than what I've seen evidence of for Mearls' supposed "wrongdoing". If we have to hold Mearls accountable for "increasing someone's profile and lending legitimacy to him", what should we do with the woman accusing Zak, who admittedly led unknowing women into a relationship with a serial abuser? How is one worthy of public outcry and firing and the other not worthy of even mentioning?

And to be clear, I'm not blaming her of anything. I am asking why such a tough standard for Mearls, where scant evidence exists of anything, but someone else actually admits to doing something wrong, and it doesn't even get mentioned? If we can give leniency to her, why not give Mearls the benefit of the doubt? Why are people in this thread so sure that he was a bad actor while simultaneously unable to provide evidence after numerous requests for it?

For myself, I don't see how WOTC can really move forward as long as they are wearing this proverbial black eye.

Any future products produced/published can be open to the same question of, "Did any serial harassers work on this product as well?"

Without WOTC displaying some form of company judgment/action against the incident, it'll continue to be a black eye for them.
It is only a "black eye" and open to ridiculous questions if people perceive it that way. People don't have to be bothered by this unless they want to interpret two screenshots as Mearls "casually dismissing" complaints and "going to bat" for Zak S. For my part, it says more about those people than it does about WotC.

Honestly I think that almost no one who plays the game will hear about or care about this news. Nobody here was talking about it until jaapleton brought it up, and as far as internet communities go we're pretty well informed.
I wholeheartedly agree.

Emphasis mine. I understand there are reasons people believe this, but does anyone actually have hard evidence on that? It's certainly not impossible, I won't even say it's unlikely, I'd just like to know if anyone has anything besides "well he could have". Also, bringing this up: my understanding is he got reports of verbal harassment, not sexual harassment. Both of which are bad, but I've seen people on this post saying the second, when I've only seen evidence of the first.
Emphasis mine to drive home the request; anyone have evidence? We'd all love to see it.

By contrast, Mearls goofed an unofficial investigation and maybe leaked some information. Is he for some reason unable to apologize, when penny Arcade was??
Again, perfectly reasonable. His mistake, whatever it might actually have been, is being blown way out of proportion.

Okay, I don't know the context, but "the email/text that Mearls sent to Zak outing his accusers" sounds pretty bad, I'm suprised that no one mentioned it upthread.
We've asked numerous times throughout the thread now for evidence of this 2D8HP. Some people though, in this very thread, don't think evidence is necessary in the court of public opinion.

I admit I am unfamiliar with this and unsure if it was sexual harassment or "verbal" harassment. I also have not heard the term "verbal harassment" before and am unsure exactly what you are referring to by it.
The screenshot that I've seen shows Mearls saying that he is getting complaints that Zak "hates gays and women". So I'm guessing that it wasn't so much he was harassing people there on the team at that time, but more that people were coming forward and complaining that WotC shouldn't have hired him because he's a jerk and harasses people online. That's just my speculation of course. I'm welcome to any evidence going one way or the other.

Zonugal

2019-04-11, 07:47 PM

Last week, eh?

Is this "other, non-dnd community" a community dealing with feminism and sexual harassment related news?

It sure isn't! Just another gaming website.

And yes, they issued an apology, but not for the comic. Only for the nearly-a-year-long campaign they ran making fun of and profiting off of the outrage. Then two years later they reignited the controversy and reapologized.

By contrast, Mearls goofed an unofficial investigation and maybe leaked some information. Is he for some reason unable to apologize, when penny Arcade was??

Did he though? Did Mearls apologize? You can go back and look at his last tweet, he issued a corporate apology on behalf of WOTC.

Mearls still hasn't issued a public apology, contrary to how Penny Arcade issued apologies as a company and then had their two leads issue public apologies as well.

At the current point, your what-aboutism is only showcasing that Mearls hasn't met the work that Penny Arcade conducted when faced with greater criticism.

I would also point out another difference in that Penny Arcade as a company realistically can't lose their leads. In fact those two leads are effectively the CEO's of the company. Are they to fire themselves? Meanwhile Mearls isn't a vital entity for D&D. You can hire someone else to fulfill his job.

Yeah he definitely goofed. Not arguing that point. No Twitter for a few months is probably fair. It'd be a shame to lose him over this.

And if he did inform on those who privately approached him about Zak S' conduct? What if he did alert Zak S to those individuals and enable a serial harasser to further target them? Would a temporary ban still be a worthwhile punishment?

suplee215

2019-04-11, 08:13 PM

I'm a stickler for some kind of evidence or corroboration before consequences because I have had women brag to me about lying to get themselves out of trouble by getting some poor guy into it. Some people lie. Women are no better or worse than any other group on that point. This doesn't mean all accusations shouldn't be taken seriously and indeed all accusations should be investigated by a trained and competent professional or team. I can't go there with what are essentially rumors on the internet though.

The problem is these cases usually don't have much evidence other than a person's account. Not like it is even realistic to expect much evidence other than that. Not like people always record themselves just in case they got to prove that something happened. If one is lucky there might be another party there but not always.

suplee215

2019-04-11, 08:18 PM

The screenshot that I've seen shows Mearls saying that he is getting complaints that Zak "hates gays and women". So I'm guessing that it wasn't so much he was harassing people there on the team at that time, but more that people were coming forward and complaining that WotC shouldn't have hired him because he's a jerk and harasses people online. That's just my speculation of course. I'm welcome to any evidence going one way or the other.

thank you of that then. puts in light the situation. I've only seen a few articles that didn't go into details on exactly what were contained in the emails.

strangebloke

2019-04-11, 08:22 PM

Did he though? Did Mearls apologize? You can go back and look at his last tweet, he issued a corporate apology on behalf of WOTC.

Mearls still hasn't issued a public apology, contrary to how Penny Arcade issued apologies as a company and then had their two leads issue public apologies as well.
Yeah, its been months. It was a year for Penny Arcade.

Mearls has been on radio silence. If and when he comes back, he can totally apologize about it personally if WotC sees that as neccesary.

At the current point, your what-aboutism is only showcasing that Mearls hasn't met the work that Penny Arcade conducted when faced with greater criticism.

I would also point out another difference in that Penny Arcade as a company realistically can't lose their leads. In fact those two leads are effectively the CEO's of the company. Are they to fire themselves? Meanwhile Mearls isn't a vital entity for D&D. You can hire someone else to fulfill his job.
What does, "Hasn't met the work" mean? What about my post was what-aboutism?

Your assertion was that WotC has to fire Mearls because he will be forever tainted by this action. If WotC was so cautious about people who were 'tainted,' they would not have hired the PA guys to write a book for them, as the PA guys were at the center of a massively greater controversy. Sure the PA guys aren't going to fire themselves, but there's no reason that WotC has to hire them.

In reality, the PA guys apologized and everyone moved on with their lives. There's no reason (that we know of) that Mearls has to be fired. He might be fired, or he might not have his contract renewed, but regardless I think its fallacious to assert that WotC must do this or that.

And if he did inform on those who privately approached him about Zak S' conduct? What if he did alert Zak S to those individuals and enable a serial harasser to further target them? Would a temporary ban still be a worthwhile punishment?
You're asserting lots of unproven things here. Basically:

He let the names slip, as opposed to someone else at WotC or no one. (Zak could have figured it out himself without help.)
He did so intentionally.
He did so knowing that Zak was a serial sexual harasser.

To this, lets add another thing he may be guilty of: He is a Satanist who's trying to induct children into his cult.

As evidence: My mother still has her doubts.

Clearly, if everything you assert is true then yeah, he might need to be fired. All I've ever said is that firing him purely because of an outcry and not because of anything he actually did is really dumb. Somehow that's a controversial statement.

In any case there doesn't seem to be any outcry at all, which gives me hope that one way or 'tother, WotC will sort it out correctly.

Sigreid

2019-04-11, 08:26 PM

The problem is these cases usually don't have much evidence other than a person's account. Not like it is even realistic to expect much evidence other than that. Not like people always record themselves just in case they got to prove that something happened. If one is lucky there might be another party there but not always.

Lots of people will crack in a competent investigation interview. If they don't, a company can usually reshuffle people to deny the potential perpetrator the opportunity to continue harassing the target. Likewise, those in charge should always reinforce what is and is not acceptable behavior. In a case like this where it is an external partner, they should definitely have the WoTC legal team there for the discussion.

It sounds like it is likely that the mistake was made of not engaging with legal immediately.

Kane0

2019-04-11, 10:35 PM

I must say, I really appreciate how civil things are in this thread.

2D8HP

2019-04-11, 10:45 PM

....It sounds like it is likely that the mistake was made of not engaging with legal immediately.

In trying to suss out this kerfluffe and what it means for Mearls and 5e D&D, I'm now doubtful that Zak S. ever was was a WotC employee for long, if at all.

From Charm Monster
A blog about games and ink (https://charm-monster.blogspot.com/2014/07/5e-d-consultants-who-are-and-what.html?m=1):

"Monday, July 7, 2014
5e D&D Consultants: Who they are and what they've done.
The D&D 5e Basic Rules PDF includes a list of eight consultants whose opinions and expertise on RPGs were valued enough by Wizards of the Coast to get them involved in the development of the newest edition. This list displays a wide range of approaches to the hobby and many different philosophies towards game design. Some are more obscure than others, but each has proven their RPG design chops.

Jeff Grubb - An RPG veteran, his credits includes Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), Spelljammer and The Manual of the Planes. He's also an accomplished author of novels, short fiction and comic books.

Kenneth Hite - The RPG hobby's high priest of horror and the occult. His many writing credits include Nephilim, GURPS, Vampire: The Dark Ages, and Trail of Cthulhu.

Kevin Kulp - A game designer whose newest project is TimeWatch, an investigative time travel RPG using the GUMSHOE system.

Robin Laws - A game designer and novelist who has had a hand in developing some of the most innovative games on the market. He has designed games such as Feng Shui, Hillfolk, Over The Edge, and many of the games using the GUMSHOE system.

S. John Ross - The designer of Risus and Uresia: Grave of Heaven, among many other games. One of those games is the Pokethulhu Adventure Game, which is probably the greatest accomplishment on this list.

RPGPundit - The designer of Arrows of Indra, Lords of Olympus and the Dark Albion fantasy setting. He created the theRPGsite.com forum and regularly blogs with his opinions on RPGs and other subjects.

Vincent Venturella - Founder of Venture Land Games and the creator of the Narrative Game System.

Zak S. - A vocal proponent of DIY D&D. He is the author of Vornheim, a sourcebook for running urban crawls and building cities. His forthcoming A Red and Pleasant Land is his take on adventuring in Wonderland. He actively blogs at Playing D&D With Pornstars."

I suspect that the "consultants"/"contributors", who seem to be "indie" game designers and bloggers and were asked to supply some opinions about 5e when it was in development in return for seeing their names in print (until now) on a WotC publication.

Exactly what bad things Zak S. did I don't want to know because I find learning those details squicky, but I've seen enough to suss out that many have found him abrasive and that dating him is probably best avoided, however I care about how Mearls may somehow be involved in - whatever it is; as I enjoy 5e and hope it continues as it has.

I must say, I really appreciate how civil things are in this thread.

I'm decidedly not, these bare hints are tiresome.

Enough with these damn hints!

Now will someone please post the "incriminating" screen shots of whatever it is that show Mearls to somehow have done something untoward already, exactly what are the bad deeds that Mike Mearls did that lead you to believe he'll be sacked?

Sigreid

2019-04-11, 10:52 PM

In trying to suss out this kerfluffe and what it means for Mearls and 5e D&D, I'm now doubtful that Zak S. ever was was a WotC employee for long, if at all.

My understanding is that he was not a WoTC employee but that there was a professional relationship. That's why I would expect they would be involving legal and not HR.

Kalashak

2019-04-11, 11:04 PM

Honestly I think that almost no one who plays the game will hear about or care about this news. Nobody here was talking about it until jaapleton brought it up, and as far as internet communities go we're pretty well informed.

I doubt, for example, that your average critter even knows who Mearls is. Your average AL player knows even less.
I think people weren't talking about it much here because the forum rules make it a dicey topic to discuss. I could be biased about how relevant this is to most people as I've been aware of his drama for years but it has been a minor blip on the TTRPG community for a while, usually coming up when a company works with him. This time around it seems to have gotten more traction than ever before.

2D8HP

2019-04-12, 12:42 AM

I think people weren't talking about it much here because the forum rules make it a dicey topic to discuss. I could be biased about how relevant this is to most people as I've been aware of his drama for years but it has been a minor blip on the TTRPG community for a while, usually coming up when a company works with him. This time around it seems to have gotten more traction than ever before.

Well I've been down a rabbit hole of web searches for the last hour - and I've found nothing but threads on different Forums like this one that are full of suggestive hints, but with nothing actually indicating reasons to sack Mearls beyond that there's lots of threads like this one full of hints that suggests that someone saw something somewhere else that Mearls did something untoward, but the closest to a legendary "screen shot" of evidence that I've found was one that was allegedly Mearls from July 5th 2014 saying that:

'No worries - I did some digging and everything you cite squares with what I've read.
Basically I keep getting that "Zak hates gays and women" and when I ask for proof people suddenly shut the [expletive] up.

Here's what I think is happening: Dudes like David Hill or Sarah Darkmagic get really emotional about this stuff. A few people online know that then can bait those folks into forming a lynch mob, so they do. I've had people cite the blog post you linked to, and when I pressed them to actually read it they were like, "Oh well I was told he said something nasty, maybe not."

It's been eye opening for a few people.'

Maybe someone with better google-fu than me may find a fire amongst the smoke - and Zak S. being a meanie/jerk who got a (now rescinded) credit in the 5e PHB doesn't seem like something Mearls should fall on a sword for to me.

So folks, again I ask:
Some have suggested that Mearls acted poorly and consequently is being shoved aside, what deeds did he do and how do you know it?

Kalashak

2019-04-12, 01:16 AM

Well I've been down a rabbit hole of web searches for the last hour - and I've found nothing but threads on different Forums like this one that are full of suggestive hints, but with nothing actually indicating reasons to sack Mearls beyond that there's lots of threads like this one full of hints that suggests that someone saw something somewhere else that Mearls did something untoward, but the closest to a legendary "screen shot" of evidence that I've found was one that was allegedly Mearls from July 5th 2014 saying that:

'No worries - I did some digging and everything you cite squares with what I've read.
Basically I keep getting that "Zak hates gays and women" and when I ask for proof people suddenly shut the [expletive] up.

Here's what I think is happening: Dudes like David Hill or Sarah Darkmagic get really emotional about this stuff. A few people online know that then can bait those folks into forming a lynch mob, so they do. I've had people cite the blog post you linked to, and when I pressed them to actually read it they were like, "Oh well I was told he said something nasty, maybe not."

It's been eye opening for a few people.'

Maybe someone with better google-fu than me may find a fire amongst the smoke - and Zak S. being a meanie/jerk who got a (now rescinded) credit in the 5e PHB doesn't seem like something Mearls should fall on a sword for to me.

So folks, again I ask:
Some have suggested that Mearls acted poorly and consequently is being shoved aside, what deeds did he do and how do you know it?
With Mike specifically you're roughly caught up. There were some people upset with Zak S and RPGpundit being consultants on 5th edition, more so Zak. Mike Mearls asked people what their complaints were, people told him their complaints, Mike Mearls dismissed them and Zak somehow found out who said things about him and (allegedly) increased his harassment. Now a lot of those people, and people who travel in the same circles, are angry at how Mearls dismissed them a few years ago and how his last tweet was worded. It's the investigation and how it was handled that people are taking umbrage with.

Daithi

2019-04-12, 01:27 AM

So folks, again I ask:
Some have suggested that Mearls acted poorly and consequently is being shoved aside, what deeds did he do and how do you know it?

Reading through all (well most) of the posts trying to suss things out as well, I have to say that you, Strangebloke, and Dr. Samurai have made the most persuasive arguments. I don't see anything that warrants Mearls being fired or forced out of WotC. If the #MeToo movement starts rising to the level of blackballing people like Mearls for, uh, what exactly, then it has gone too far. It seems like Mearls only crime was not disassociating himself from someone 5 years earlier based on unsubstantiated rumors that Mearls made an effort to confirm but couldn't, and then half a decade later the rumors turned out to be true. That standard for condemning Mearls seems a bit high to me.

I do understand that WotC is a private company, and they don't want to risk upsetting potential customers. However, I just don't think punishing Mearls is morally or ethically right. The companies who blackballed communists didn't want to upset their potential customers. The businesses in the deep South in the 1950s didn't want to upset their potential customers by serving blacks. Not wanting to upset your customers is pretty poor excuse for not doing what is right, and making Mearls a scapegoat (based on the evidence at this point) is just not right.

Coffee_Dragon

2019-04-12, 06:10 AM

This time around it seems to have gotten more traction than ever before.

Maybe people saw that the first thread was prefaced with "hate to gossip", nodded and thought to themselves, "we must reluctantly speculate about this on the web".

2D8HP

2019-04-12, 07:20 AM

With Mike specifically you're roughly caught up...

Thanks @Kalashak.

Reading through all (well most) of the posts trying to suss things out as well, I have to say that you, Strangebloke, and Dr. Samurai have made the most persuasive arguments. ....

@Daithi,

I don't think I have an argument beyond "What screen caps?".

The most convincing argument that I've read that Mearls did something untoward was:

...the email/text that Mearls sent to Zak outing his accusers would have violated HR investigation rules for all 3 companies that i have worked for, in addition to betraying the victims' trust.
his involvement in the investigation and mishandling of private data (ie, I should never have seen that email)...

but after doing many web searches I haven't found what @NaughtyTiger says they saw, only other posts to other Forums suggesting the same thing - which suprised me, as I would think that someone would've posted a 'screen cap' of that text or e-mail - but I can't find it.

Maybe people saw that the first thread was prefaced with "hate to gossip", nodded and thought to themselves, "we must reluctantly speculate about this on the web".

@Coffee_Dragon,

Until your post I was unaware of the Hate to gossip, but: Is Mike Mearls in trouble? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583365-Hate-to-gossip-but-Is-Mike-Mearls-in-trouble)

thread.

Willie the Duck

2019-04-12, 08:37 AM

but after doing many web searches I haven't found what @NaughtyTiger says they saw, only other posts to other Forums suggesting the same thing - which suprised me, as I would think that someone would've posted a 'screen cap' of that text or e-mail - but I can't find it.

I don't know either, but we're not supposed to have access to it. All of this is stuff that is supposed to be internal, private company documents. You, I, NaughtyTiger, we all shouldn't have this proof. We also shouldn't be making definitive statements (to be fair, most people haven't been) like 'WotC should ____,' but instead, 'If the allegations against ZS are credible**, and Mearls did _____**, then Wotc** should ____.'
*my own google fu has not come up with the actual case against ZS, nor the Mearls email. OTOH, it also has not come up with a slavering outrage-mob clamoring for Mearls' ouster, so much as a bunch of other threads doing speculation gymnastics.
**all of which WotC should have access to.

jaappleton

2019-04-12, 09:03 AM

I must say, I really appreciate how civil things are in this thread.

I was just about to post this very same thing.

Proud of my fellow Playgrounders in this topic, overall.

I just don’t see how anyone can dislike Perkins, though :smalltongue:

Misterwhisper

2019-04-12, 09:30 AM

I was just about to post this very same thing.

Proud of my fellow Playgrounders in this topic, overall.

I just don’t see how anyone can dislike Perkins, though :smalltongue:

If they can tollerate working with Sean K. Reynolds then Mearles should be fine.

2D8HP

2019-04-12, 09:47 AM

....my own google fu has not come up with the actual case against ZS, nor the Mearls email. OTOH, it also has not come up with a slavering outrage-mob clamoring for Mearls' ouster, so much as a bunch of other threads doing speculation gymnastics....]

What I saw in my searches to find out what the hubbub was that in response to Mearls last Twitter message there were many posts that were much like the ones in this thread, a few demanding that Mearls be fired, and more that asked for "a better apology".

Having seen the WotC statement (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dndstatement?fbclid=IwAR145-zdvJ2DF82QLx3k1_m5Cm57-GQef7M7ScAE5tvXrKB7R9unUQtzDNU) about this mess that reads:

"To all D&D fans,

We spent the last week listening and learning from the D&D community.

Zak Smith, along with many others, was engaged by Wizards to provide feedback on D&D Next, the playtest which evolved into D&D fifth edition. We have not contracted with him since, and regret our choice to do so in 2014. Because of that, we are removing Zak’s credit from future physical printings and digital versions of the Player’s Handbook.

We applaud how the D&D community supports one another and fully support the planned Dungeon Masters Guild bundle raising funds to donate to RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network). The bundle is live now and we will be amplifying it going forward!

We are grateful to be a part of this wonderful community, and we thank you for your passion. We remain committed to working with and learning from you, the D&D community. You may always share your comments and thoughts with us on our social media platforms and we are setting up an email address at [email protected] to receive feedback.

Sincerely,
The D&D Team"

I'm pretty unclear that absent time-travel exactly what more should be done by WotC.