Why are Paladins considered bad?

[cassal]

Hi everyone, I'm currently trying to balance the 3.5 classes and would like some advice.

I've seen a lot of chatter on some boards (GITP and others) that Paladin is a tier 5 class and thus effectively useless. I can see two flaws in the SRD paladin: MAD, and alignment restriction. These are easily fixed. MAD by making them Charisma based spell casters, since they are clearly built around charisma. And alignment by tying their alignment to their deity's alignment.

Are these the paladin's fatal flaws? Or are there other underlying problems?

[OgresAreCute]

Only having like 5 class features isn't great. You could give them some more skill points and skills so they can actually adequately maneuver social situations, which you would expect a knight or paladin of justice to be able to do. Smite is also pretty underwhelming as a per-day ability.

[Alabenson]

Paladins (or at least Core-only paladins) have several major issues which pull them into Tier-5

- As you mentioned in your post, paladins are extremely MAD, needed 3-4 high ability scores in order to just function, making them one of the worst offenders in core next to the monk
- Melee in general is a fairly poor option in 3.5 unless a class has some way to radically augment their combat abilities
- Paladin casting is fairly useless; the class has a rather weak spell list and they get their spells far too late for what they have to be of any practical use

Now, notice that I specified Core-only paladins; paladins benefit immensely from having splatbooks available to them, and there are a number of ACFs and feats that can easily pull a given paladin build into Tier-3 territory.

[cassal]

Now, notice that I specified Core-only paladins; paladins benefit immensely from having splatbooks available to them, and there are a number of ACFs and feats that can easily pull a given paladin build into Tier-3 territory.

Can you direct me in right direction to those books?

[Maat Mons]

Making their casting work off Charisma is a good start. And changing the alignment restriction gets rid of the need for all the alternate-alignment variants.

I'd also bump them up to Duskbale spell progression.

The hard part, though, is that you need to design a whole suite of class features for level 6+, because remove disease and more uses of smite don't cut it.

[Morty]

Even if you make their spellcasting charisma-based, it's just not very good. Like may poor options, it becomes better once you pile up enough sourcebooks. This lets them have their own unique spells instead of a hand-me-down cleric list.

But either way, their abilities just aren't that good. They've got a motley of class features that look nice but don't add up to much. And one of their iconic features, the mount, is very inconvenient to use in the game's eponymous environment. Or, you know, anywhere indoors. Their most reliable features are probably Smite and Lay on Hands, but Smite has a very harsh daily restriction. Plus it won't work on non-evil targets. And while a paladin isn't very likely to fight good targets, neutral ones are always a possibility.

[Zaq]

Smite is way underpowered and not usable even close to often enough to justify being their primary offensive feature.

CHA to saves is fine. Immunity to fear is okay. The other defensive features are unremarkable.

Turn Undead is nerfed and never usable as-is. As currency for divine feats, it’s semi-okay, but few of the good divine feats are good for paladins.

The horse is potentially strong (having an intelligent ally is useful), but it’s awkward to work around the limitations on what happens if it dies, how often you can call it, the realities of a Large critter in a Medium world (Small pallies have it easier, but the problem is real), etc.

Lay on hands isn’t a ton of healing and is rarely action-efficient. The pool is small enough that it’s not a great spike-heal most of the time, and it’s just limited in general.

The spells are bad in the PHB, but they get better with more books and are arguably the strongest feature with full book access. The WIS reliance, nerfed CL, and extremely limited slots suck.

Basically, it takes a lot of work and a lot of books to actually give the paladin anything to do on their turn. They aren’t great at melee even with smiting. They don’t get enough juice to rely on magic all day. Add in the problematic roleplaying restrictions and you end up with a very frustrating class.

[Crake]

Pathfinder made many nice updates to paladin, including moving spellcasting to cha, and massively improving smite evil, which is now a swift action against a single target that lasts for all attacks until the target is dead, or until you rest to regain your smite uses.

[MisterKaws]

Hi everyone, I'm currently trying to balance the 3.5 classes and would like some advice.

I've seen a lot of chatter on some boards (GITP and others) that Paladin is a tier 5 class and thus effectively useless. I can see two flaws in the SRD paladin: MAD, and alignment restriction. These are easily fixed. MAD by making them Charisma based spell casters, since they are clearly built around charisma. And alignment by tying their alignment to their deity's alignment.

Are these the paladin's fatal flaws? Or are there other underlying problems?

let's list all the flaws:


Useless and late spells
Uselessly low damage compared to other melee builds
Lack of useful class features
Useless mount unless you're Small because of dungeon space restrictions


The spell part could be fixed by making it closer to Duskblade casting, but keep it at 4th level, and add Battle Blessing as a class feature extra feat so that the paladin can cast spells and fight at the same time.

The damage part would be partially fixed by reworking the Paladin spellcasting, but I also suggest reworking Smite Evil into something more constant, instead of an X/day bonus that isn't even half as effective as a Diamond Mind Warblade doing a backhand slap(Insightful Strike). And the Warblade can do it every other round.

The class features... well, you're completely on your own there. The only reason not to jump out of Paladin is the mount, and, as I mentioned, it's useless most of the time unless you restrict yourself to being Small. And being small would severely reduce your effectiveness as a self-proclaimed front-line fighter who literally cannot use subterfuge.

The mount... Just get rid of it. Maybe make something like a class feature that lets you summon some kind of spectral mount with shared hit points and AC to you, but increase your movement speed a bit(Effectively have the Paladin be treated as a Centaur for the duration). In addition, maybe make a number of bonus feats that can be picked in pairs: the first of the pair works only when you're on foot, and the second works only when you're mounted - basically floating feats that can let you be effective both mounted and unmounted.

[InvisibleBison]

And alignment by tying their alignment to their deity's alignment.

This won't solve the alignment related problems of the paladin. These problems come in two varieties: Players who think that the code of conduct authorizes or requires them to regulate their party members' actions, and DMs who think they're supposed to make the paladin fall. Tying a paladin's alignment to a deity's alignment will, in the former case, simply change what sorts of things the paladin is trying to force her party members to do, and won't do anything in the latter case.

Also, not all paladins are associated with deities, so even if it worked this idea wouldn't be universally applicable.

[Telonius]

If you're interested in some homebrew, I have a reworked Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?554806-Reworked-Paladin) that seems to have held up pretty well over 13 levels now.

The weaknesses of the standard Paladin have been pretty well discussed. One more I'd mention: it's feat-starved. Power Attack and Battle Blessing are feat taxes; taking both means you only have 5 to play around with (six if you're human, more if you use flaws). You really have to pick and choose what you want to do: charging and mounted combat are things you can do together, but you won't be able to spend any more feats than that if you do both. If you take the Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, and Spirited Charge to get the most out of your mount, that's three. Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper are two more. So there's all of your feats spoken for, unless you're human (or Strongheart Halfling) or have Flaws.

[ngilop]

Pathfinder made many nice updates to paladin, including moving spellcasting to cha, and massively improving smite evil, which is now a swift action against a single target that lasts for all attacks until the target is dead, or until you rest to regain your smite uses.

Easy paladin fix to bump them up to tier 4

Make Smite evil last the combat encounter

Make casting key off of charisma

Give paladins 4 skill points per level

Allow Paladins to add cleric spells at certain intervals ( like every 4th level)

Give paladin's aura of courage an ability to give a bonus vs charms and compulsions

Easy additional paladin fixes to bump them up to tier 3

Steal Pathfinder's Paladin Mercies

Steal Pathfinder's Warpriest Blessings, give them multiple ones like at the normal levels (1st and 10th) then a 2nd one at 6th and 15th and finallya 3rd one at 11th and 20th. But they can only chose blessings of domains that their deity has access to or ones that match their own alignment ( or you can create your onw personal list of available domains to base blessings off of)

Steal Pathinder's Cavalier Orders

[eggynack]

Can you direct me in right direction to those books?
Probably the most powerful paladin tool is sword of the arcane order, from champions of valor, which lets you pull from the wizard list for your spells. Champions of valor also has mystic fire knight, which combos pretty well with sword, and the champions of valor web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) has harmonious knight, which is decent. Battle blessing from complete champion doesn't really combo with sword, because it works specifically with paladin spells, but it's a solid feat. Then there's stuff like charging smite from PHB II, cursebreaker from complete mage, crescent moon knight from champions of valor (particularly the 6th and 10th levels), divine spirit (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a), and underdark knight from complete champion.

Some of these conflict with each other, or don't synergize too well, but it's a solid pile of options. Looking through the list, I guess the main answer is to check out champions of valor, cause it has a lot of stuff.

[AvatarVecna]

Let's do a quick comparison between a Paladin 20 and a Rogue 20 for their damage-boosting powers: smite vs sneak attack. Let's assume the paladin is wielding a lance, is charging with Spirited Charge while wearing Riding Boots, and every time he tries to smite, he successfully scores a critical hit. So over the course of his five smites, his Smite ability is boosting his total damage for the day by 600 points - and I wanna point out, this is the absolutely best case scenario: not only is he built around smite-crits, but this is a day where every smite turned out to be a successful crit.

The rogue gets more extra damage than that as long as they land 18 Sneak Attacks throughout the whole day.

[CharonsHelper]

EZ Fix: Use Pathfinder's Paladin.

It's generally considered one of the better melee character options - due to already having several of the fixes mentioned here (ex: CHA casting / Smith lasts etc.) and a better spell list.

[Zancloufer]

They are on the edge of being good. Some dipping/book diving can actually hobble together a decent build.

If you want some personal fix ideas I did one a while ago but the abridgement is: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275324-3-5-Paladin-Tweak)

-4+int Skill points.
-Smite Evil is per encounter.
-Lay on Hands has much bigger pool and evolves into touch of vitality.
-Aura of Courage grants a bonus to allies
-No longer have 1/2 CL. CL = Class level and starts at level 3. Level 0-5 spells (instead of 1-4) and spontaneous based of Cha. Get 1 Free Domain.
-Slightly better Mount
-Immunity to disease effects MAGICAL DISEASES.
-Automatic protection from evil that evolves into a circle
-Gain Mettle
-Eventually can use their SLA's a a swift action a few times per day.
-Eventually Can ignore DR with Smite Evil
-Eventually Can Turn Outsiders

So yeah. Mostly the same shtick but just added slightly more breadth or a small power-up.

[Jack_Simth]

let's list all the flaws:


Useless and late spells
Uselessly low damage compared to other melee builds
Lack of useful class features
Useless mount unless you're Small because of dungeon space restrictions

Don't forget the DM-bait Code of Conduct, and the semi-implied bossing around of other characters listed under "associates".

To DM-bait:
Some DM's outright hate paladins and want to make them fall. These can be somewhat difficult to distinguish from the more common type that loves paladins, wants to make the game more interesting for them, and so repeatedly poses moral dilemmas where the 'proper' solution is not obvious (possibly due to hidden information). The catch with repeated moral dilemmas is, of course, that sooner or later when the 'proper' solution is not obvious, one is going to make the wrong choice (well, unless you buy the Mother-May-I item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness) or take it as a feat, and use it a lot). So whether it's one end of the spectrum or the other, the only 'safe' DM for a paladin is an indifferent one... and even then stuff happens.

"Associates"
Right under the Code of Conduct, you have: "While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code"
- So if there's a paladin in the party, nobody's supposed to play evil, and regular Chaotic types mean driving the Paladin off eventually.

[Biggus]

One major issue is that their caster level is half their class level, meaning that at high levels their CL lags way behind full casters, making them very vulnerable to dispelling (it also makes certain level-based spells such as GMW pretty useless). PF makes their CL equal their class level -3, which makes more sense.

[Maat Mons]

Immunity to disease effects MAGICAL DISEASES.

That's not a change. Monks are the ones who get the crappy version of disease immunity.

[gorfnab]

Can you direct me in right direction to those books?
Paladin Handbook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=724.0)
Paladin Build Compendium 1 (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10057)
Paladin Build Compendium 2 (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8971)
"A" Game Paladin Build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin)
X-Codes Optimized Healing Paladin Build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19041625&postcount=12)

[Cosi]

Don't forget that the Paladin alignment restrictions are dumb and bad. They (like everything to do with alignment) provide negative value to the game as a whole.

Honestly, the Paladin is not hard to fix. Make Smite Evil a basically at-will ability that's an alternative to full attacks, give them Bard casting with some Cleric spells and maybe some holy-themed Evocations, and you have a serviceable divine gish with enough options to go multiple directions.

[Karl Aegis]

They can't target an enemy's weak saves effectively. Therefore, they are Tier 5. That's it.

[AvatarVecna]

They can't target an enemy's weak saves effectively. Therefore, they are Tier 5. That's it.

That seems rather unfair. Not being able to target weak defenses doesn't make you useless in and of itself, it just means you're having to work harder to be good at what you can do. There's more than a couple beatstick classes that are competent enough to rise to T4 after all. Paladin just isn't one of them.

[Karl Aegis]

That seems rather unfair. Not being able to target weak defenses doesn't make you useless in and of itself, it just means you're having to work harder to be good at what you can do. There's more than a couple beatstick classes that are competent enough to rise to T4 after all. Paladin just isn't one of them.

It does make you "Not Tier 3".

[ngilop]

One major issue is that their caster level is half their class level, meaning that at high levels their CL lags way behind full casters, making them very vulnerable to dispelling (it also makes certain level-based soells such as GMW pretty useless). PF makes their CL equal their class level -3, which makes more sense.

Oh man.. I totally forgot about this. Yeah level -3 is a perfect fix.

[Biggus]

Also, Smite Evil is totally useless at low levels. At level 1 it's +1 damage to one attack per day. Compared to the Barbarian's +2 attack and damage for about 7 rounds, it's laughable.

One solution is to give them 1+Cha uses per day, and a minimum damage bonus, perhaps +3 or +4. This also has the advantage that it doesn't get too overpowered at high levels: if you make each use last an entire encounter for example, it far outstrips most other martial classes' combat bonuses eventually.

[AvatarVecna]

It does make you "Not Tier 3".

You didn't say "Paladins can't target weak saves, therefore they're not T3", you said "Paladins can't target weak saves, therefore they're T5". That's literally what you said, and what I was responding to.

[magic9mushroom]

It does make you "Not Tier 3".

Hulking Hurlers don't target weak saves either.

Not saying Pally's tier 3, but this isn't really a hard-and-fast criterion.

[eggynack]

They can't target an enemy's weak saves effectively. Therefore, they are Tier 5. That's it.
This makes literally no sense. Targeting a particular weak defense is one way of solving a specific class of problems. Specifically, defeating monsters that happen to have that weak save. There are many many other ways to solve that class of problems that do not involve targeting the weak save, and many many other types of problem that the paladin could theoretically be quite competent at solving. Save targeting isn't really a determinant of tier, let alone the primary one that's impossible to overcome.

[Malphegor]

I strongly recommend anyone playing a PHB class to look up Wizards' own Dead Levels online supplement, which fills out the 'kind of boring' levels where no new class features are there.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

Now, beyond that... They're an alignment restricted class- you must be Lawful Good to be a stock PHB Paladin, and the nature of the class (being inspired by the Peers of Charlemagne, who were from a time when religious conversion of heretics through oppression was acceptable and considered virtuous even if baptising people by threat of the sword is kind of evil maybe) is kind of at odds with its own self... But there's always a contradiction in D&D classes so let's ignore that.

They can wear full armour. They get a horse, and can Summon Horse (sure the ability's called something different, but I call it Summon Horse 1, with dragon mounts etc being Summon Horse 2, 3, etc.)

They get holy magic, specifically focused on buffs, heals, and purging evil.

Ostensibly, you'd think a Paladin would be the perfect class for a dungeon crawl. A party of Paladins 'should' work, DEUS VULT-ing their way through catacombs with much light in the darkness, like a flashbang in the mouth of evil.

They inherently have an order of people that could support them, a clergy or whatever, which means that for a big fight, a Paladin technically has Leadership in all but name, if only because they can request the aid of their order for a righteous cause. (Paladins + Leadership is a good combo and even intended by Wotc I feel based on that Dead Levels article. CRUSADE!). Rogues tend towards being loners, wizards are always in-fighting, but Paladins have the power of a god's followers behind them should they call upon it. Paladins should have a leg up on getting supporting NPCs if needed.

But being lawful good, and your casting being a little bit limited, plus not being as effective in melee as a dedicated melee class (note- why would you be a regular melee class though if paladins were better at swording goblins than you?), makes them hard to really get into.

Plus, I think they can't cast in melee, can they? I know some gish classes can fire spells through their weapons, can Paladins?

[AvatarVecna]

I strongly recommend anyone playing a PHB class to look up Wizards' own Dead Levels online supplement, which fills out the 'kind of boring' levels where no new class features are there.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

[0] days since the last time I was reminded of these stupid piddly excuses for class features.

[Malphegor]

[0] days since the last time I was reminded of these stupid piddly excuses for class features.

Hey, wizards get an animated-text spellbook! That's surprisingly awesome if one assumes the wizard can apply that to any writing they do. Also combining it with geometer for cool 'open a spellbook it's like a psychedelic trip inside', there's some decent fluffy class abiltiies there.

I do like what they say about monks though:
Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

[Mordaedil]

It would have been somewhat true if slow fall was more like wall-climbing like Megaman X can do or just an ability to fly brief stints.

[emeraldstreak]

Coz people don't use the Core alternative mount rules.

[Firechanter]

While the 3.5 Core Paladin is truly horrible and downright shameful, as has been demonstrated by the good folks here, the class is salvageable through ACFs. Basically the recipe is "get rid of virtually ALL your class features, exchange them for something else" and that probably tells you all you need to know.

One build that pulls out all the stops is known as the A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin). It does use an obscure race and some rather questionable picks (you need to be member of _two_ knightly orders following two different deities), but you can regard it as a toolbox from which you pick the elements you can justify before yourself and your DM.

Cornerstones:
- From Smite To Song: trade your useless Smites for an equal amount of Inspire Courage. Optimize Inspire Courage.
- trade your useless mount for a Divine Spirit that supports you and your entire party
- trade your useless Remove Disease for some other Bardic Performances
- improve your spellcasting by some Wizard spells, trading in Turn Undead.
- be Illumian and key your spellcasting off Strength, making you significantly less MAD
- take Words of Creation when you can

Personally, I don't like Illumians but I have found that a regular Human version of the build is nearly just as good; especially since WoC has high Wis and Int prereqs so you can't dump them anyway. And even if your DM doesn't allow the dual-order thing or WoC, that's still no biggy. So long story short, being a Full-BAB class with fully optimized Inspire Courage really is the big draw here.

--

FWIW, the Pathfinder Paladin is a very sound and round class from the get-go. I've just hit level 11 with a singleclass one in our game and so far he has one-rounded every boss. Still feeling no compulsion to multiclass or anything.

[eggynack]

One build that pulls out all the stops is known as the A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin). It does use an obscure race and some rather questionable picks (you need to be member of _two_ knightly orders following two different deities), but you can regard it as a toolbox from which you pick the elements you can justify before yourself and your DM.
This one kinda bothers me because it states that you can use battle blessing on SotAO spells. It's an interaction that is at best ambiguous but which is probably slanted somewhat against. The way the build is phrased is especially telling along these lines, stating, "With wizard spells that you cast as paladin spells," which is blatantly not something that the feat says happens. The build, as you state, definitely has some good ideas though.

[Kurald Galain]

Hi everyone, I'm currently trying to balance the 3.5 classes and would like some advice.

Yeah, the solution is to take the Pathfinder Paladin. It's very effective, and comes with numerous good archetypes if you want e.g. a familiar instead of a warhorse, or to share the smite bonuses with your allies, or the ability to summon angels.

[Anthrowhale]

The Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) is pretty good, particularly if you give it (near) full casting and use the Serenity feat to avoid Cha dependence. Even without that, it's still a reasonable choice for the save bonus and a few good paladin-only spells.

[Eldariel]

While the 3.5 Core Paladin is truly horrible and downright shameful, as has been demonstrated by the good folks here, the class is salvageable through ACFs. Basically the recipe is "get rid of virtually ALL your class features, exchange them for something else" and that probably tells you all you need to know.

One build that pulls out all the stops is known as the A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin). It does use an obscure race and some rather questionable picks (you need to be member of _two_ knightly orders following two different deities), but you can regard it as a toolbox from which you pick the elements you can justify before yourself and your DM.

Cornerstones:
- From Smite To Song: trade your useless Smites for an equal amount of Inspire Courage. Optimize Inspire Courage.
- trade your useless mount for a Divine Spirit that supports you and your entire party
- trade your useless Remove Disease for some other Bardic Performances
- improve your spellcasting by some Wizard spells, trading in Turn Undead.
- be Illumian and key your spellcasting off Strength, making you significantly less MAD
- take Words of Creation when you can

Personally, I don't like Illumians but I have found that a regular Human version of the build is nearly just as good; especially since WoC has high Wis and Int prereqs so you can't dump them anyway. And even if your DM doesn't allow the dual-order thing or WoC, that's still no biggy. So long story short, being a Full-BAB class with fully optimized Inspire Courage really is the big draw here.

--

FWIW, the Pathfinder Paladin is a very sound and round class from the get-go. I've just hit level 11 with a singleclass one in our game and so far he has one-rounded every boss. Still feeling no compulsion to multiclass or anything.

WoC requires 15 Cha and Int, not Wis and Int. Short of rolled god stats or Dynamic Priest, Illumian is the best way to guarantee sufficient daily spells.

Also, Mount can be incredible with some work. That said, Divine Spirit is good too.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Malphegor
I know some gish classes can fire spells through their weapons, can Paladins?

I was just thinking about this earlier, and I don’t think they can. Not as a class feature, anyway, although there’s probably some abstruse way to do it with SotAO.

But it would be thematic for a paladin to be able to cast through his holy blade, not to mention handy in combat.


Originally Posted by Crake
Pathfinder made many nice updates to paladin….

As several folks have mentioned by now, the Pathfinder paladin is a solid upgrade and able to hold its own. I’ve played one briefly (taking over an NPC for combat) and really enjoyed it, and I’d play one long-term if I had the chance. Definitely worth checking out.

[DEMON]

Plus, I think they can't cast in melee, can they? I know some gish classes can fire spells through their weapons, can Paladins?

Nope. But, eventually (if they take the feat), they can battle bless.

Many have already described the many faults of the core Paladin, including CoC, low amount of Smites per day, weak spells etc.

As for solutions, I have whipped up a quick one yesterday (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23832352&postcount=2). By no means a perfect one, though the improved spellcasting and increased number of smites would help a lot.

Making the Paladin into a sort of divine Duskblade would probably be the way to go. Might also want to combine them with the Knight class.
- Instead of LG only, make the alignment requirement Any Lawful.
- Change the CoC to Knight's Code.
- Good Fort and Will saves.
- Duskblade-like spell progression with Charisma-based casting (add some 0th and 5th, or even 6th (as 5th) level Cleric spells).
- Remove Smite Evil, replace with something Rage-like but different (such as +STR, +CHA, increased shield bonus to armor class, align weapon; lasts for 3+CHA rounds?), improve with additional defensive abilities at later stages (DR, energy resistance, fast healing).
- Remove Auras, Lay on Hands, Detect Evil
- Remove Turn Undead, replace with Knight's Challenge.
- Add something akin to Ranger's combat style but for sword and board, 2-handed weapons, or mounted combat (make it more flexible than Ranger's style - by picking from a pool of bonus feats).
- Optional Special Mount (i.e. either pick the special mount, or some other class feature (maybe the Combat Style?)).

[Bohandas]

It also depends what they're fighting, what else the party does in addition to fighting, what everyone else in the party is playing. If you fight a lot of monsters that rely on SR and fear auras for their challenge rating a party of paladins is going to clean up

[Firechanter]

FWIW, amusingly, my PF Paladin kinda had trouble with some giant zombies recently. Not that they really put him in any danger, but they took surprisingly long to whittle down. Being basically mooks they didn't warrant wasting Smites on, and even though I had an Undead Bane weapon, not being able to intimidate them kinda meant that racking up the damage took rather long.

The nastiest fight I was in, was against a couple of Hill Giants with class levels who rolled lucky on Initiative and managed to play pingpong with me. I.e. one threw me across the room, I landed prone, and the other one got a Full Attack in before I was able to get up or, more importantly, heal. I would have gone down there if I hadn't had a buff running (Angelic Aspect) that gave me DR 5/Evil, so don't discount Paladin spellcasting hastily. ;)

[Jack_Simth]

FWIW, amusingly, my PF Paladin kinda had trouble with some giant zombies recently. Not that they really put him in any danger, but they took surprisingly long to whittle down. Being basically mooks they didn't warrant wasting Smites on, and even though I had an Undead Bane weapon, not being able to intimidate them kinda meant that racking up the damage took rather long.

The nastiest fight I was in, was against a couple of Hill Giants with class levels who rolled lucky on Initiative and managed to play pingpong with me. I.e. one threw me across the room, I landed prone, and the other one got a Full Attack in before I was able to get up or, more importantly, heal. I would have gone down there if I hadn't had a buff running (Angelic Aspect) that gave me DR 5/Evil, so don't discount Paladin spellcasting hastily. ;)

Note that you're looking at Pathfinder Paladin spellcasting, and a Pathfinder Paladin is pretty much a step or two up all around.

[Eldariel]

Note that you're looking at Pathfinder Paladin spellcasting, and a Pathfinder Paladin is pretty much a step or two up all around.

I dunno, with splats 3.5 Pally spell list gets pretty darn good already (not as good as the Ranger, necessarily, since Pallies don't benefit of Champions of Ruin, but still quite good). Perhaps not [Greater] Named Bullet-good, but starting from Rhino's Rush, it's pretty nice.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, all around the PF Pally is a huge step up, but compared to 3.5 there is no Battle Blessing in PF, which makes spellcasting a bit trickier. There are a few Swift Action spells but a lot of them aren't very good imho. Like, generally people seem to like the Litanies; personally I find it pointless to sacrifice a Swift and a Slot to allow the target a save vs your piddly Spell DC.
That said, the Angelic Aspect line of spells is fantastic; these do more than Visage of the Deity and come online much sooner.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, all around the PF Pally is a huge step up, but compared to 3.5 there is no Battle Blessing in PF, which makes spellcasting a bit trickier. There are a few Swift Action spells but a lot of them aren't very good imho. Like, generally people seem to like the Litanies; personally I find it pointless to sacrifice a Swift and a Slot to allow the target a save vs your piddly Spell DC.
That said, the Angelic Aspect line of spells is fantastic; these do more than Visage of the Deity and come online much sooner.

Well, with your casting stat of Cha, the DC might not be quite that poor and it's still a swift action that can superenhance your full attack. Of course it's better still on a Samsaran Cleric but what isn't.

[Firechanter]

Well, not with the low spell levels you get. Also depends on your Point Buy, but even at PB25 (Pathfinder method ofc), at level 10 I ran Str 22 Cha 18 including gear. So my Save DC for a Litany of Righteousness would be 16. At PB20 or 15 it might be a point less. Then again, with anything less than PB25 I wouldn't have picked a MAD class to begin with, but I digress.

On the other hand, I did invest heavily (2,5 Feats) into the Cornugon Smash / Hurtful Combo [the half feat was to get Intimidate in class], so I have a very good use for my Swifts that doesn't cost any daily resources. It doesn't work on Undead and other creature types that are immune to Mind Affecting, but all in all those aren't too many. My spell slots are mostly used for longer-running buffs.

[jdizzlean]

paladins are just horrible, in every case where you're thinking of playing a paladin, play a cleric instead.

you don't even need DMM on that cleric to make it a better option at everything.

I've played a paladin, exactly once, in the 30 or so years i've been playing d&d.

as has been stated, if you strip pretty much all your "class features" from paladin and exchange them for something else, you have a passable pally.

and if you WANT that code of conduct crap, just play a LG cleric of St. Cuthbert and RP the heck out of it..

[Endarire]

Crusaders generally do the 'Paladin' things better than a Paladin and aren't so alignment-restricted.

I don't hate Paladins. I've played the class. I just much prefer Crusaders due to their wealth of options and unique abilities (healing on hit, delayed damage, etc.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

I personally like the idea of giving out the half-celestial template and the angel subtype features across levels 7-20. There's a lot of good stuff there, including magic circle against evil, lesser globe of invulnerability, tongues, outsider type, wings, immunities, SLAs, ability increases, and so on. Resurrection 1/day at level 19. Not sure on the capstone, but you could just use an archon's greater teleport at-will (yes, I know archons aren't angels).

[Cosi]

paladins are just horrible, in every case where you're thinking of playing a paladin, play a cleric instead.

you don't even need DMM on that cleric to make it a better option at everything.

I've played a paladin, exactly once, in the 30 or so years i've been playing d&d.

as has been stated, if you strip pretty much all your "class features" from paladin and exchange them for something else, you have a passable pally.

and if you WANT that code of conduct crap, just play a LG cleric of St. Cuthbert and RP the heck out of it..

Crusaders generally do the 'Paladin' things better than a Paladin and aren't so alignment-restricted.

I don't hate Paladins. I've played the class. I just much prefer Crusaders due to their wealth of options and unique abilities (healing on hit, delayed damage, etc.)

Certainly the Cleric and the Crusader squeeze in on the Paladin's niche. That said, I think there's room for a Paladin that's at the midpoint between pure caster and pure martial. I would probably go with (as stated earlier) 6/9 casting with a list that looks like an extended version of the Paladin's, mixed with a little Duskblade (fire and light spells, maybe Arcane Channeling with or instead of Smite), buffs, and some anti-undead stuff. Hopefully that ends up with something that works as a base for a variety of divine gish builds, potentially going into PrCs like Holy Scourge, Silvery Pyromancer, or whatever the PrC for servants of Bahamut is. More magic than the Crusader, and with a tuned up smite and/or some melee defenses, a better frontliner than (low or mid op) Clerics.


I personally like the idea of giving out the half-celestial template and the angel subtype features across levels 7-20. There's a lot of good stuff there, including magic circle against evil, lesser globe of invulnerability, tongues, outsider type, wings, immunities, SLAs, ability increases, and so on. Resurrection 1/day at level 19. Not sure on the capstone, but you could just use an archon's greater teleport at-will (yes, I know archons aren't angels).

At 19th level your cohort could cast true resurrection. The idea of handing out the half-celestial template is interesting, but not, I think, sufficient. Maybe make it an ACF that you can swap your Mount for, with the understanding that doing so is balanced because if you do pick the mount you'll optimize it a bunch.

[Firechanter]

Shocking, really, that you could slap on an entire LA+4 template for free and the class still wouldn't be OP. Tells quite a lot about the original class, I guess. :6

[ExLibrisMortis]

At 19th level your cohort could cast true resurrection. The idea of handing out the half-celestial template is interesting, but not, I think, sufficient. Maybe make it an ACF that you can swap your Mount for, with the understanding that doing so is balanced because if you do pick the mount you'll optimize it a bunch.
It rather depends on the power level you're shooting for. I don't want the paladin to be tier 1, so the half-celestial template is just fine.

[Cosi]

It rather depends on the power level you're shooting for. I don't want the paladin to be tier 1, so the half-celestial template is just fine.

Your cohort could be a Healer that casts true resurrection. This is not a "Tier" issue, this is a "that ability is crappy and no one cares" issue. You could take Leadership getting a 17th level Cohort, who could take Leadership getting a 15th level Cohort, who could take Leadership getting a 13th level Cohort, who could be a Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 8 who casts Supernatural limited wish to emulate raise dead. Your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort could have a better version of SLA raise dead, and also do other stuff if you wanted (or it could not, and it would still be better, because that ability is bad). If all you want is raise dead, your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort could cast that. 1/day SLA raise dead is just not a big deal by any stretch of the imagination. Your Cohort could be an Adept and still bring more to the table than one casting of raise dead.

[Jack_Simth]

Your cohort could be a Healer that casts true resurrection. This is not a "Tier" issue, this is a "that ability is crappy and no one cares" issue. You could take Leadership getting a 17th level Cohort, who could take Leadership getting a 15th level Cohort, who could take Leadership getting a 13th level Cohort, who could be a Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 8 who casts Supernatural limited wish to emulate raise dead. Your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort could have a better version of SLA raise dead, and also do other stuff if you wanted (or it could not, and it would still be better, because that ability is bad). If all you want is raise dead, your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort could cast that. 1/day SLA raise dead is just not a big deal by any stretch of the imagination. Your Cohort could be an Adept and still bring more to the table than one casting of raise dead.
Couple of notes on that...

1) ExLibrisMortis appears to be wanting to hand out the entire Half-Celestial template, not just the free Resurrection. Ability increases that stack with all others, because they're racial, flight, Darkvision, SR, 15 total spell-like abilities (Summon Monster IX is on there, as is Mass Charm Monster, Holy Aura, and Holy Word), the type change avoids a fair number of spells, and a few other things.
2) Nothing stops the Paladin with this benefit from also taking Leadership when Leadership is on the table. And the Charisma increase from the Half-celestial template will help with that.

Sure, it's nowhere near tier-1 material, but it is a nice boost that would probably bring the paladin up a tier. Probably.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This is not a "Tier" issue, this is a "that ability is crappy and no one cares" issue.
I was really confused by your objection to a simple example, but then I read Jack's post and realized that you hadn't realized that resurrection is simply the last SLA granted by the half-celestial template. It's not the most important ability (in general or to the paladin class specifically), but it shows that you get something that isn't common under typical optimization (negating a 10 000 GP cost on a daily basis). It's more like a nice flavour ability before the actual capstone the class would grant at 20.

[Cosi]

Shocking, really, that you could slap on an entire LA+4 template for free and the class still wouldn't be OP. Tells quite a lot about the original class, I guess. :6

You have to remember that pretty much everything is massively over-LA'd, especially for high levels. Consider the choice between a Half-Celestial Crusader 16 and a Crusader 19 (it gets even worse if you maximize the number of levels of maneuvers lost by doing 14 versus 17 or something). The game says the former is better, but I think most people would take the latter, particularly if you ignored the WBL advantage. And Half-Celestial is even a relatively well designed template, because it gives you some benefits that scale.


Couple of notes on that...

I got that. And, yes, the template as a whole has some nice things (though as noted, not sufficient). I was responding specifically to the part where they singled out getting resurrection at 19th level as a thing anyone cares about ever. It's like giving someone the abilities of an Ancient Red Dragon, and saying "including find the path" like we're supposed to care.


Ability increases that stack with all others, because they're racial,

It doesn't matter if a bonus stacks with all bonuses, it matters if it stacks with the bonuses you have. That's not to say getting a rare type of bonus isn't nice, but it's not like people are going to go out of their way to get two Enhancement bonuses.


flight

This is probably (relatively speaking) the best thing the template gives you, depending on when you get it.


15 total spell-like abilities (Summon Monster IX is on there, as is Mass Charm Monster, Holy Aura, and Holy Word)

Most of those are not great. holy aura is fine as a defensive buff, mass charm monster is totally insane because you get Diplomacy as a class skill, but Bards and Beguilers have been doing that for half the game or more at the point you get it. And a couple of 1/day SLAs are nowhere near enough to fix the class.


Nothing stops the Paladin with this benefit from also taking Leadership when Leadership is on the table. And the Charisma increase from the Half-celestial template will help with that.

This is a bad argument. The point is not that the things trade off, it is that no one cares about things your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort can do for you, so singling out those things as worth mentioning is not compelling. Like, imagine that I proposed we fix the Monk by giving it magic missile once per day at 19th level. Would it be stupid to point out that an Eternal Wand (which can be had for less than 1% of your WBL at that point) was better than that ability because you could get that ability and buy an Eternal Wand? Of course not, the fact that the ability isn't better than something you could do half the game ago is already damning, even if you can do both things.


Sure, it's nowhere near tier-1 material, but it is a nice boost that would probably bring the paladin up a tier. Probably.

And you'll note that I'm totally on board with doing that. You just can't only do that, and you should sell doing that on the basis of things that are actually good (giving mass charm monster to a class with Diplomacy) and not things that are insultingly bad (giving you a slightly better version of a spell that your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's Cohort could cast).


I was really confused by your objection to a simple example, but then I read Jack's post and realized that you hadn't realized that resurrection is simply the last SLA granted by the half-celestial template. It's not the most important ability (in general or to the paladin class specifically), but it shows that you get something that isn't common under typical optimization (negating a 10 000 GP cost on a daily basis). It's more like a nice flavour ability before the actual capstone the class would grant at 20.

I was, as noted, not confused about your point, I was confused why you thought an ability that your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort can have a better version of was supposed to be something worth mentioning.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I was, as noted, not confused about your point, I was confused why you thought an ability that your Cohort's Cohort's Cohort can have a better version of was supposed to be something worth mentioning.
So... if you're not confused, you think this is a point worth making?

To a vanilla paladin, 1/day resurrection as a spell-like ability is a significant upgrade. It is one of several upgrades that the half-celestial's SLAs would constitute.

Your takeaway from that is... you could be tier 1 and pile on much more cheese and be much more powerful. Because Leadership stacking is definitely a stock balance comparison point, and paladins definitely need to be up there.

Have you heard of relevance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevance)?

(Needless to say I'm not discussing this any further.)

[Florian]

I´ll echo Firechanter on this: The PF Paladin is really good, solid class design and actually manages to bring over the "class archetype" in a solid and enjoyable package: This is the "Knight of the Round Table" that you don't want to face as an evildoer. This is well supported by various magic items that support the class and actually gets a bit ridiculous if you chose well and know how to min-max a bit.

Personally, I tend to go a bit of a different route, with a heavy focus on CHA and an even distribution of STR, DEX and CON, dumping WILL and INT. What I will do, tho, is going for the Oath of Vengeance and spent a feat on Unsanctioned Knowledge, as other classes also have some very interesting stuff that disregard Saves or SR. Again, personally speaking, I don't find the lack of Battle Blessing to be much of a loss, recourse the spell list is really good and gies you a lot of regular cleric spells at a discount, so you are en par, you just don't have as much of them.