Energy Substitution and Animate Undead

[Warchon]

Has anyone played around with this concept?
It would of course require a fairly liberal application of RAW, interpreting [Evil] as a negative energy descriptor, but I don't think that goes too far beyond the pale. It's also clearly a violation of RAI, as the feat calls out Fire, Cold, Electricity and Acid as the only viable substitutions (but does not technically exclude other types as ORIGIN choices).
But would this really break anything to apply it this way?
Undead are just corpses with energy in the driver's seat, I don't see a mechanical issue with drawing that energy from a different plane. Fire zombies. Lightning zombies (Frankenstein's Monster?)
This shouldn't give them any new abilities, though for instance a Necrosis Carnex created this way might have an acid touch instead of a negative energy one.
I think this would make for some interesting and highly thematic foes--or even allies.

And of course with a further loosening of the rules you could also make Deathless (using positive energy) Or a sonic skeleton that you can't help but hear coming from a mile away.

I'm not asking whether this is legal by RAW, it's dubious at best and I know it. But are there any second order effects that make this nonviable from a balance point of view?

[Kayblis]

The Energy Substitution feat calls for an Energy descriptor. [EVIL] is not an Energy descriptor, it's an Alignment descriptor. There's a difference between "liberal application of RAW" and just making stuff up.

And no, undead are undead, the method of raising them shouldn't matter for their functioning, and anything other than that is strictly homebrew. You'd have more luck asking in the Homebrew forums.

[Warchon]

The Energy Substitution feat calls for an Energy descriptor. [EVIL] is not an Energy descriptor, it's an Alignment descriptor. There's a difference between "liberal application of RAW" and just making stuff up.

Good and Evil in D&D are explicitly tied to positive and negative energy, as expounded on in the Planar Handbook. While I can appreciate that "Alignment" and "Energy" are not the same thing, all invocations of Evil or Negative energy necessarily call upon each other, by RAW. That's the basis for the entire thought process.

I appreciate the input, but you're literally answering the exact question I specified I wasn't asking here.

I will, however, take your advice regarding the homebrew forum. That is probably a better home for this type of discussion.

[Silva Stormrage]

Good and Evil in D&D are explicitly tied to positive and negative energy, as expounded on in the Planar Handbook. While I can appreciate that "Alignment" and "Energy" are not the same thing, all invocations of Evil or Negative energy necessarily call upon each other, by RAW. That's the basis for the entire thought process.

I appreciate the input, but you're literally answering the exact question I specified I wasn't asking here.

Good and Evil are explicitly NOT tied to positive and negative energy. Both planes in D&D are alignment neutral.

[Menzath]

....I'm not asking whether this is legal by RAW, it's dubious at best and I know it. But are there any second order effects that make this nonviable from a balance point of view?


.... You'd have more luck asking in the Homebrew forums.


I appreciate the input, but you're literally answering the exact question I specified I wasn't asking here.

I think kayblis was trying to be nice and point out that the droids you are looking for are warforged over here, so your best bet is to check in a more appropriate place.

And as for if this Homebrew was in play would it be balanced and viable.....
That's a different can of worms.
In a full op t1 party, it would be useful with born of three thunders or a few other niche feats early on, and taper out as soon as casters got to "comfortable" take out equal cr solo Power levels.

But in a t2 or less mid to low op, minionmancy in general is powerful and rules/bogs down fights.

I guess the key takeaway points of if this would be balanced is what op level the group is at, how often it would come into play, how abused it is, and would it hinder/frustrate other players in the party. It also depends on if you let certain class's features that effect spell energy damage also affect these. There are going to be alot of case by case variables that only the DM will be able to decide if it's "fair".


As a side note in theory you could use snow casting to cast an animated undead spell with the cold descriptor, but as you surmised even then it would not change anything since the spell itself doesn't deal any damage, even with energy substitution/admixture on top of that.

[Warchon]

Both planes in D&D are alignment neutral.
A fair point. I still believe this is a case of the rules contradicting themselves, but can't be arsed to track down exact text right now, since I've already acknowledged this sort of a plan would require heavy DM involvement regardless.



As a side note in theory you could use snow casting to cast an animated undead spell with the cold descriptor, but as you surmised even then it would not change anything since the spell itself doesn't deal any damage, even with energy substitution/admixture on top of that.

An interesting alternative, and equally thematic.



I'm going to continue/restart this conversation in the Homebrew forum. If you're interested in helping balance/critique this ideas further, please follow the topic over to there.