3.5 epic build help

[Contemplative]

Long time lurker finally poking around to ask a question here.

So, in a week, I’ll be joining an IRL epic campaign ran by some people I met through roll 20. The party’s is level 24 at the moment, and the plan is to go all the way to 40. The game is pretty highly optimised (they have a planar shepherd and used to have a spell to power erudite) but there’s no using RAW murky tactics, like many of the tricks for early caster PRC entry. I was hoping some of the much more experienced 3.5 players could lend me a hand. We have plenty of front liners, so a caster is what I want to build. Something divine and isn’t based like a archivist is preferable, but any full caster who functions well at high level epic play and isn’t a generic incantatrix Wizard (we already have one of those, so I’d prefer a different type of wizard if I play one at all) will do nicely. Epic spellcasting is, I’m told, house ruled To remove exploits. Thanks preemptively for any help!

[Mr Adventurer]

You could try out those epic Warlock feats maybe? Wouldn't be viable up to 40 but might be fun for the first level or so. Then just say your patron collected your soul and bring in the Cleric you want ;).

[Schadenfreuda]

As far as epic levels go, pretty much any full caster is going to do well, even without prestige classes. Druid 24 is hard to compete with, for example, being able to shapechange into anything on top of a spectacular spell list for combat and spontaneous SNA, and Wizard 24 even without prestige classes is capable of whatever he wants to be.

However, if you wish to optimise with prestige classes for your wizard, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Rainbow Servant (which says it advances full casting in the text, though not the table, and text overrules table), and Archmage are all solid staple PRCs.

[magic9mushroom]

Long time lurker finally poking around to ask a question here.

So, in a week, I’ll be joining an IRL epic campaign ran by some people I met through roll 20. The party’s is level 24 at the moment, and the plan is to go all the way to 40. The game is pretty highly optimised (they have a planar shepherd and used to have a spell to power erudite) but there’s no using RAW murky tactics, like many of the tricks for early caster PRC entry. I was hoping some of the much more experienced 3.5 players could lend me a hand. We have plenty of front liners, so a caster is what I want to build. Something divine and isn’t based like a archivist is preferable, but any full caster who functions well at high level epic play and isn’t a generic incantatrix Wizard (we already have one of those, so I’d prefer a different type of wizard if I play one at all) will do nicely. Epic spellcasting is, I’m told, house ruled To remove exploits. Thanks preemptively for any help!

In terms of classes: Set things up so you get an epic feat progression. This can be from a base class advanced past 20, a PrC advanced past 10, or an epic PrC. But do it. Epic caster feats are incredibly powerful. I have a list of stuff with epic progressions here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18875.0).

In terms of epic feats: Whether you should take Epic Spellcasting really comes down to how it's being fixed. What you definitely should take are a couple of Improved Spell Capacities (up to the point where your bonus spells stop) and a couple of Multispells. When you hit 27, grab Epic Counterspell if it's allowed and then at least one Improved Metamagic unless you already have the effect as a class feature (e.g. Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper). A second is pretty decent (Maximise/Fell Animate/Widen/Repeat/Quicken/Twin/Persist) and a third is of some use (Quicken/Twin/Persist), but the first one's an absolute no-brainer.

Other epic feats of note include Planar Turning, the various epic Wild Shape feats, Permanent Emanation, and Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). But these barely hold a candle to the ones above. And then of course there's Epic Leadership - the followers start to become interesting once you get Legendary Commander. But whether Leadership is appropriate is really dependent on your table.

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh - of you're going divine, take Hierophant from level 21 to 25. It doesn't advance spellcasting, so doesn't fall foul of the 'spellcasting advances at one per two levels' rule at Epic. But it does increase your caster level by its full class level - so you actually come out ahead, plus you can choose all the cool abilities it gives you.

[magic9mushroom]

Oh - of you're going divine, take Hierophant from level 21 to 25. It doesn't advance spellcasting, so doesn't fall foul of the 'spellcasting advances at one per two levels' rule at Epic. But it does increase your caster level by its full class level - so you actually come out ahead, plus you can choose all the cool abilities it gives you.


'spellcasting advances at one per two levels'

There is no such rule. Most casting PrCs taken into epic advance spellcasting fully (or at least, as fully as they can since spells/day can't be advanced).

You may be thinking of the rule that save DCs calculated using PrC levels count only half the levels beyond 10th. Or the way epic attack bonuses increase. Or Epic Mystic Theurge, which alternates instead of continuing dual-progression for some reason. I dunno.

Hierophant is more interesting than usual in a build for epic (because, indeed, you're going to get spells/day maxed out anyway and extra levels of casting are just caster level), but you should take it at subepic levels. Epic levels need to have an epic feat progression.

EDIT: Oh, if you have access to True Resurrection or another frequent-use huge-mat-cost spell, Ignore Material Components is somewhat interesting.

[Mr Adventurer]

You're right, I was just thinking of spell slots capping at 20th class level. Still a good deal.

[MisterKaws]

You could try out those epic Warlock feats maybe? Wouldn't be viable up to 40 but might be fun for the first level or so. Then just say your patron collected your soul and bring in the Cleric you want ;).

Yeah, epic Warlock is pretty solid until the thirties, since it has a ton of at-will level 8 and 9 spells via the web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) feats. They're mostly copies of Salient Divine Abilities too, just taken down a notch.

Also, by RAW, Eldritch Sculptor lets you use Eldritch Glaive twice per round, so 6 attacks. Might not be accepted in your group, though it's not like it's much more powerful than any melee fighter at that point.

Also Double Hellfire with Lord of All Essences. I guess just that much would be worth going Warlock. 6x24d6 hellfire(with chasuble) damage as touch attacks with reach, potentially metamagicked via various items. And it can crit.

[The Kool]

If you specifically want divine casting, and you're starting at 24, look into Dweomerkeeper. Supernatural Spell is very nice, even if your DM rules that it still requires the XP component of the spell (which by RAW it doesn't). You can take it for either full arcane casting or full divine casting with only a 1 level dip to the other side (as long as you have the Magic domain from somewhere). You also pick up metamagic reduction... Though you may find this too similar to the Incantatrix. If you want something different, I hear good things about the Warlock in epic levels, so might try that.

[Âmesang]

Someday I'd like to run an Epic Mage of the Arcane Order combined with Epic Spellcasting due to its potential for calling forth epic spells from the Spellpool (CA, p.190).

[magic9mushroom]

If you want a top-tier divine PrC for epic, the Hathran certainly qualifies. Circle magic, bonus to Leadership, spontaneous casting, and then at epic you get a bonus epic feat every two (!!!) levels. And full casting.

While Dweomerkeeper has an epic progression, it doesn't fit very well since it's for 3.0 Dweomerkeeper (which is significantly less OP, with higher reqs, no Supernatural Spell and poorer chassis).



If we're talking about epic warlocks, epic binder is pretty hilarious too. There's one epic vestige that lets you summon a Sphere of Annihilation (though it's a bit vague about where it gets summoned; I think most DMs would get a little cross if you summoned it inside their BBEG).

[Biggus]

magic9mushroom pretty much has it nailed as far as epic feats go, the only other ones worth mentioning are:

Craft Epic Wondrous Item, primarily for the ability score boosts (as you'll presumably only have a very few epic spells known/ per day, and this is about the only other way to get better than a +6 bonus, unless your DM has an epic magic item shop somewhere in their setting).

Epic Counterspell (PGtF), takes counterspelling from a distinctly suboptimal strategy to something worth seriously considering if you can afford the feat tax, as it allows you to counterspell any number of times per round without readying an action or losing any of your regular actions.

If you're wanting a fairly straightforward divine caster, I'd agree with The Kool that Dweomerkeeper is an excellent choice. With the Practised Spellcaster feat (CArc/ CDiv) you don't have to use any shenanigans to get arcane spells without losing divine caster levels, and your epic bonus feats only come one level late.

Other possibilities to consider relating to Practised Spellcaster:

You can take up to four levels of non-casting classes without losing any caster levels at all. As well as making Hierophant more viable, this makes a lot of gish builds a lot more optimal if you're starting at epic (or just a 2-level dip into Paladin if you're playing a Cha-based caster for the massive bonus to saves).

Some Theurge builds become more viable at epic. For example, Druid 7 Bard 3 Fochlucan Lyrist 4 Sublime Chord 1 Fochlucan Lyrist +6 Arcane Hierophant 10 Mystic Theurge 10 gives you full Druid casting with no loss of caster levels and full Bard/SC casting with only 3 caster levels lost all the way to level 41, if you can find some way of getting evasion that your DM will allow without dipping into a noncasting class (this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217332-Fochlucan-Lyrist-entry) thread gives some ideas). You do lose out on bonus epic feats compared to a straight Druid, but getting another full set of spells up to 9th level is one of the few things arguably worth losing them for. If you don't like the loss of Bard/SC caster levels, check out this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?484088-3-5-Raising-Caster-Level) list for ways to boost it.

The other advantage of epic Theurge builds is that you get twice as many epic spells per day if you take Epic Spellcasting.

[Biggus]

If you want a top-tier divine PrC for epic, the Hathran certainly qualifies. Circle magic, bonus to Leadership, spontaneous casting, and then at epic you get a bonus epic feat every two (!!!) levels. And full casting.

While Dweomerkeeper has an epic progression, it doesn't fit very well since it's for 3.0 Dweomerkeeper (which is significantly less OP, with higher reqs, no Supernatural Spell and poorer chassis).


Yikes, I never noticed that the epic Hathran gets a bonus feat every two levels (or that the epic Eye of Horus-Re does for that matter). Pretty sure they must be a mistake as no other caster classes get more than one every three levels, but if your DM lets it fly, fill your boots...(even if they don't, it's still a good choice, but note that the spontaneous casting only works within the borders of Rashemen unless the DM houserules it).

Also pretty sure that you're supposed to work with the DM to create an appropriate epic progression for prestige classes if they didn't get one in 3.5 rather than just using the 3.0 one as-is.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human, Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Mindbender 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ (anything that advances wizard spellcasting) 4/ Epic Ultimate Magus 4+
Able Learner, Versatile Spellcaster, any metamagic feat, Master Spellthief, Mindsight, and whatever other feats you want.
Get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard). Specialize in Conjuration with Enchantment and Illusion as prohibited Wizard schools, and take Abrupt Jaunt. The Spellthief spell list includes every enchantment and illusion on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, and one level in that class allows you to use wands and staffs of those spells, plus you'll get plenty of those from your Beguiler spellcasting.

Assume Epic Ultimate Magus advances both classes at every level except 11, 14, 17, 21, 24, 27, etc., gives one point toward Arcane Spell Power at ever three levels after 10th, another level of Expanded Spell Knowledge at even-numbered levels, continues advancing Augmented Casting, continues giving a bonus non-epic metamagic feat at every 4th level after 9th, and maybe gives a bonus epic feat at every 4th level after 7th or so.

Master Spellthief equalizes your caster levels, so UM levels that only advance one class will advance whichever class you want. At 20th level you'll want to be at Wizard 17 and Beguiler 9 spellcasting. After 20th put every UM level that advances one class into Beguiler to max it out as soon as possible.

At level 24 you'll have Wizard 19 spellcasting, Beguiler 13 spellcasting, one level of Spellthief, and Arcane Spell Power +5. With Master Spellthief your caster level in each class is 38 at your current level, without a Ring of Arcane Might or an Orange Prism Ioun Stone. Your next three levels will advance Wizard by two levels, Beguiler by three levels, and increase arcane spell power by one more, increasing your caster level in each class by six. You'll basically be increasing your caster level by two per level on average, since arcane spell power will increase at least as often as the levels that only advance one class.

On top of that, you'll have amazing Beguiler class skills that you can keep up your ranks in due to Able Learner. You'll have Telepathy 100 ft. and Mindsight. You'll be able to spend one class's spell slots to add metamagic to spells cast from the other class, which will include Persistent Spell. With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast "any spell you know" of one level higher, which should include any Wizard spells you've learned.

Take Theurgic Specialist (Dragon 325 p62) if possible, that makes any spell you cast from your specialist school (conjuration) add the caster level of all your spellcasting classes together to determine your caster level for that spell. Take Reserves of Strength (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, p86) if possible, which deals 1d6 damage to you (you'd better be immune to stunning at this level) in exchange for increasing your caster level by 1 for a spell, and allowing that spell to ignore the built-in level-limit on its level-based effects. So you can cast a Maximized Orb of Force with that, your caster level will be 77, and it will deal 462 damage. I'm sure there are even better spells to exploit this with.

Having all the Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) should be a given at this level. Also consider an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), keeping in mind you can use normal item creation rules to give it more intelligent item powers and even a special purpose power. Item familiars are intelligent items which are considered constructs, it gets actions in combat that it can use to activate its own abilities, and constructs can't be destroyed by disjunction. You'll probably want to make it a ring and always wear a glove or gauntlet over it so it can't be targeted directly or slight of handed. If you want to take the risk of investing skill ranks in it you can get an absurd return on the trickiest Beguiler skills. The 10% xp bonus alone makes it worth getting.

[Biggus]

Assume Epic Ultimate Magus advances both classes at every level except 11, 14, 17, 21, 24, 27, etc., gives one point toward Arcane Spell Power at ever three levels after 10th, another level of Expanded Spell Knowledge at even-numbered levels, continues advancing Augmented Casting, continues giving a bonus non-epic metamagic feat at every 4th level after 9th, and maybe gives a bonus epic feat at every 4th level after 7th or so.

While there's no official progression for epic Ultimate Magus that I know of, I'm fairly sure it isn't supposed to do all that. For one thing, the most similar class which does have an official epic progression, Mystic Theurge, only gives extra spellcasting for each class at alternate levels. For another, no published epic progression I know of continues its nonepic bonus feat progression, they all just get an epic bonus feat progression in its place.

Definitely check with your DM before basing a build on these assumptions.

[magic9mushroom]

Yikes, I never noticed that the epic Hathran gets a bonus feat every two levels (or that the epic Eye of Horus-Re does for that matter). Pretty sure they must be a mistake as no other caster classes get more than one every three levels, but if your DM lets it fly, fill your boots...(even if they don't, it's still a good choice, but note that the spontaneous casting only works within the borders of Rashemen unless the DM houserules it).

Rashemi spirit magic (the thing at level 1, which is at-will) works only within the borders of Rashemen. But universal spirit magic (which is N/day, with additional uses every 3 levels) can be used anywhere.

And yeah, casters getting feats at 1 per 2 is ridiculous. The Player's Guide to Faerun isn't exactly known for its finely-tuned balance. :P

(The Epic Hospitaler is 1 per 2 as well, but that's because the 3.0 Hospitaler got a bonus feat every two levels in the nonepic bit; Hospitaler got nerfed substantially in 3.5. I will note that the bonus feat list of Epic Hospitaler only has a couple of good caster feats.)


Also pretty sure that you're supposed to work with the DM to create an appropriate epic progression for prestige classes if they didn't get one in 3.5 rather than just using the 3.0 one as-is.

It's more complicated than that. Technically, almost all the 3.0 epic progressions got updated to 3.5 in the Epic Insights Compilation. The problem is that this happened before most of the PrCs to which those epic progressions apply got updated in the Complete X series, so there's a 3.5 PrC and a 3.5 epic progression but they don't match up. In some cases, the differences are minor, while in others you do have to basically start from scratch.

The thing about PrCs (or classes) with no known epic progression is that it's hard to recommend or disrecommend them since we have no idea what the epic feat progression would be. The most we can say is what the epic feat progression should be, which generally shouldn't be better than 1 per 4 for fullcasting PrCs that have notable class features (since fullcasters themselves are 1 per 3 except Druid which is 1 per 4 because class features) and might be lower depending on the class. The thing is that some published epic progressions break that rule, like the aforementioned ridiculous progression of the Epic Hathran and the rest of PGtF's fullcasters being mostly 1 per 3 (ELH itself has Loremaster at 1 per 3, but that's kind of an example of "no notable class features" since only their bardic knowledge actually progresses into epic and that's comparable to a familiar).

[Contemplative]

I'm still working out the specifics of the build (Definitely Archivist base, probably with a warlock cohort based on the build mentioned above. UM with a 70+ caster levels seems a tad too powerful, I don't want to steal anyone's glory.) and I was just wondering what spells I should be memorising in epic play. Summon spells lower than IX seem pretty redundant against Epic foes, blasting spells are pretty bad, and I certainly don't have the same number of control spells as a wizard. I have buffs and "Big" spells down pat (Miracle, Gate, Elemental Monolith) but what should I be memorising and casting on a turn to turn basis?

[magic9mushroom]

I'm still working out the specifics of the build (Definitely Archivist base, probably with a warlock cohort based on the build mentioned above. UM with a 70+ caster levels seems a tad too powerful, I don't want to steal anyone's glory.) and I was just wondering what spells I should be memorising in epic play. Summon spells lower than IX seem pretty redundant against Epic foes, blasting spells are pretty bad, and I certainly don't have the same number of control spells as a wizard. I have buffs and "Big" spells down pat (Miracle, Gate, Elemental Monolith) but what should I be memorising and casting on a turn to turn basis?

Miracle isn't just a "big" spell. It's something you should be using most days to get stuff from arcane lists (hi there Contingency, Giant Size and Body Outside Body).

Implosion is always fun if you can get the DC high enough, since it kills instantly but isn't a death effect; Greater Bestow Curse is similar since it's basically save-or-lose. Holy Word is decent with a buffed CL, though monster HD inflation is if anything worse at epic. Superior Resistance is an every-day buff until you get access to Cloaks of Resistance +7 (that'll be a while), as is Death Ward or its Mass version (though you may need to Persistify those). Heal is always great because it doesn't cost anything. Discern Location and Greater Plane Shift are good to have on hand. Astral Projection is awesome if you can get rid of the material component (e.g. Ignore Material Components).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The UM build doesn't need to use the Theurgic Specialist/Reserves of Strength trick. It still has the skills of an epic Rogue, the spellcasting of an epic Wizard, and a solution to just about any noncombat challenge you'll find in the Beguiler spell list.


An Archivists can learn and cast any divine spell in the game: Druid, Adept, Paladin, Ranger, Divine Bard, any domain spell, any arcane spell a Hexer has turned into a divine spell, etc. There's only a few spells in the game that you actually wouldn't be able to learn. Archivist actually gets decent class features, 11th is generally the jumping-off point but it may be worthwhile to spend more levels dipping other classes and/or taking prestige class levels if it's more beneficial to do so.

As for what to prepare, there are plenty of crowd controls out there that are still viable in the epic levels if opponents aren't outright immune. Kelpstrand, Wall of Thorns, and Call Avalanche on the Druid list are all extremely strong choices. Kelpstrand grapples multiple opponents, but it's thwarted by Freedom of Movement, Ray Deflection, and very large/strong or very high HD/BAB. Wall of Thorns can be cast on top of opponents and since it's a physical obstacle it's not bypassed by Freedom of Movement, but anything with teleportation or that's incorporeal can bypass it. Call Avalanche is good because it instantaneously creates mundane snow that buries opponents, which is also not bypassed by Freedom of Movement because it's again a physical obstacle, but anything with a burrow speed or teleportation or that can easily make a DC 25 Str check can get out right away, but it still makes everyone waste a turn getting out. You can also use Call Avalanche to knock down flying creatures, sink ships, bury towns, etc.

You can use Earth Spell to boost your caster level for spells that it matters for (Kelpstrand). Be sure to Persist a (Widened) Magic Circle Against Evil as it automatically blocks nongood extraplanar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype) creatures from approaching. You should also DMM: Persist three (Maximized) Holy Stars, keep each one in a different mode and when one's spell turning runs out rotate it to another mode and put a different one in that mode. You can have ~50 Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives spells (using pearls of power), so each round you can hit an opponent with up to 50d6+250 damage and deal 50 negative levels to them.

Take Mage Slayer, and use Practiced Spellcaster to fix the caster level loss it causes. Have Contingency: If I notice an opponent casting Disjunction that I may be within the area of effect for, Teleport me behind them. You automatically get a free Spellcraft check to identify any spell that you perceive being cast. If they were casting defensively their spell automatically fails, if they weren't you get to AoO them. You should have something like Sudden Stunning (DMG2) on your weapon, and/or be a Whisper Gnome and have some kind of sneak attack (Martial Stance feat for Assassin's Stance) and Silencing Strike, or some other means to disrupt the spell with your attack without relying on damage alone.

Put (Extended) Snowsight on everyone in the party, and anyone who can cast Obscuring Snow should do so. It automatically blocks vision for anything that doesn't have Snowsight, not even True Seeing can beat it, it's basically a trump card that comes online at character level 3. Both spells are in Frostburn. When not out adventuring you should keep Invisible Spell Obscuring Snow on yourself, so only opponents who can see invisibility will have their vision blocked by it. You can walk through town and none of the mundanes will notice it, but potential enemies will react and give themselves away. Combine Invisible Spell Snowsight with (Persistent) Greater Invisibility or Superior Invisibility and any opponent that would be able to see through your invisibility will instead have their vision completely blocked by the Obscuring Snow. Be sure to get Darkstalker so opponents with special senses will still need to roll a Spot or Listen check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you when you're invisible.

Get a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level pearl of Power. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity twice and use those to cast it three times, it lasts 48 hours. On the days in between, prepare Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity each once and use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity twice, using the rod for those, they'll last 48 hours. For those two items and two 6th level spell slots per day, you're immune to all five energy types and get a +6 resistance bonus to all your saving throws. Be sure to get a Ring of Enduring Arcana, possibly even an upgraded one (6,000 gp for a +4 is bonus squared x375, so 37,500 for a +10 dispel DC version, or 150k gp for a +20 version).

Consider including three levels of (Cloistered) Cleric to take Initiate of Mystra (PGtF) so you can ignore antimagic fields and dead magic areas. Consider combining it with Ardent and Psychic Theurge (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b), an Ardent learns higher level powers based on manifester level instead of class level so Practiced Manifester effectively catches you up by four class levels. Get the Freedom and Time mantles for sure, you only need one Ardent level and with Practiced Manifester and Psychic Theurge 10 you can use 8th level powers. Be sure to use Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) to fill out your list. Psionics has effects that spellcasting doesn't have like Time Hop, along with tons of immediate action counters, plus psionic powers have no verbal, somatic, or material components. Be sure to get Energy Missile to target and destroy objects as needed (weapons, armor, shields, spell focus, spell component pouch, bridges, doors, boats, pillars holding up the ceiling, etc.). If not using magic/psionics transparency you can even use those powers in antimagic and dead magic areas, and psionic powers can never be counterspelled.

[Rebel7284]

Be sure to Persist a (Widened) Magic Circle Against Evil as it automatically blocks nongood extraplanar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype) creatures from approaching. You should also DMM: Persist three (Maximized) Holy Stars, keep each one in a different mode and when one's spell turning runs out rotate it to another mode and put a different one in that mode. You can have ~50 Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives spells (using pearls of power), so each round you can hit an opponent with up to 50d6+250 damage and deal 50 negative levels to them.

I have some issues with those suggestions.

Magic Circle against X is range Touch. Touch range spells are not persistable by RAW, but ask your DM.
From what I recall, the rules of stacking magical effects explicitly prohibits stacking the same spell multiple times even if it has different modes.
Stacking the same mode of the same spell multiple times as in Cloud of Knives is 100% wrong.

[magic9mushroom]

An Archivists can learn and cast any divine spell in the game: Druid, Adept, Paladin, Ranger, Divine Bard, any domain spell, any arcane spell a Hexer has turned into a divine spell, etc. There's only a few spells in the game that you actually wouldn't be able to learn. Archivist actually gets decent class features, 11th is generally the jumping-off point but it may be worthwhile to spend more levels dipping other classes and/or taking prestige class levels if it's more beneficial to do so.

Divine Bard is UA and doesn't exist unless the DM says it does. If they don't exist, then there is no way Archivists could get hold of their spells.

Also, the DM may rule that obscure divine spells such as those from domains or from byzantine tricks are not freely available for purchase (much as divine scrolls of domain spells are not found in random treasure tables). Archivist is reliant on DMs to a significant degree.


Be sure to Persist a (Widened) Magic Circle Against Evil as it automatically blocks nongood extraplanar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype) creatures from approaching.

Not automatically. They can overcome it with SR.


Take Mage Slayer, and use Practiced Spellcaster to fix the caster level loss it causes. Have Contingency: If I notice an opponent casting Disjunction that I may be within the area of effect for, Teleport me behind them. You automatically get a free Spellcraft check to identify any spell that you perceive being cast. If they were casting defensively their spell automatically fails, if they weren't you get to AoO them.

AoO generally precedes an action, so it's questionable whether you'd be in time to get your AoO trigger. You probably would be in time for the Concentration check, though.


Consider including three levels of (Cloistered) Cleric to take Initiate of Mystra (PGtF) so you can ignore antimagic fields and dead magic areas.

No, you can't quite ignore them. It lets you cast inside an AMF and have your spell function normally, but it doesn't let you cast into an AMF that you are not yourself within. There's also the CL check.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Divine Bard is UA and doesn't exist unless the DM says it does. If they don't exist, then there is no way Archivists could get hold of their spells.

Also, the DM may rule that obscure divine spells such as those from domains or from byzantine tricks are not freely available for purchase (much as divine scrolls of domain spells are not found in random treasure tables). Archivist is reliant on DMs to a significant degree.



Not automatically. They can overcome it with SR.



AoO generally precedes an action, so it's questionable whether you'd be in time to get your AoO trigger. You probably would be in time for the Concentration check, though.



No, you can't quite ignore them. It lets you cast inside an AMF and have your spell function normally, but it doesn't let you cast into an AMF that you are not yourself within. There's also the CL check.

He said he'll have a Warlock cohort, Warlock 12 gets Imbue Item so if the spell could exist in the game world as a divine spell, they could have made a divine scroll of it and say he's learned the spell from the scroll.

"A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram..." It doesn't say that only the trap version can be cast with said diagram.

Regarding AoOs, you can start moving from an unthreatened square but any time during your movement if you go into and leave an opponent's threatened space, they get an AoO. Not just when you start moving, but any time during the action when you would provoke an AoO, you do. The same should go for spells, the caster is distracted during the entire casting time, not just upon starting the action, so an opponent being moved into a position to threaten him while he's still casting the spell should give an AoO.

The CL check is fairly trivial at this level. You're right about not being able to cast into an AMF from outside of it, I could have been more specific. Regardless, it's still extremely beneficial to have that, although including Ardent could make it unnecessary if transparency isn't being used.

[Âmesang]

For another, no published epic progression I know of continues its nonepic bonus feat progression, they all just get an epic bonus feat progression in its place.
It may have been a typo on their part, but the Complete Arcane (p.190) says "an epic mage of the Arcane Order gains a bonus feat every four levels after 10th."

Granted, even the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide seems to have superseded the old "bonus epic feat progression" concept with a generic "bonus feat progression," at least by looking at the epic character advancements on p.207: "In addition to the class features retained from lower levels, each class gains a bonus feat every two, three, four, or five levels after 20th. This benefit augments each class's progression of class features, because not all classes otherwise improve class features after 20th level. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that every character gets every three levels (as per Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, page 22 of the Player's Handbook)."

[Quertus]

If you're starting at level 24, I just wanted to point out how viable Illithid Savant becomes.

[Biggus]

Rashemi spirit magic (the thing at level 1, which is at-will) works only within the borders of Rashemen. But universal spirit magic (which is N/day, with additional uses every 3 levels) can be used anywhere.

Oh, I see. Yeah, you're right.


The thing about PrCs (or classes) with no known epic progression is that it's hard to recommend or disrecommend them since we have no idea what the epic feat progression would be. The most we can say is what the epic feat progression should be

This is true, but there are fairly specific guidelines as to what class features should or shouldn't continue to progress after level 10, and barring one or two clearly ridiculous cases like the epic Hathran, there's a pretty consistent pattern to how many bonus epic feats they get as well. Obviously there will be borderline cases where the DM will have to make a judgement call, such as whether a particular class feature is significant enough to reduce bonus feats from 1/3 to 1/4, but in most cases it's clear roughly what the epic progression should be.


It may have been a typo on their part, but the Complete Arcane (p.190) says "an epic mage of the Arcane Order gains a bonus feat every four levels after 10th."

Granted, even the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide seems to have superseded the old "bonus epic feat progression" concept with a generic "bonus feat progression," at least by looking at the epic character advancements on p.207: "In addition to the class features retained from lower levels, each class gains a bonus feat every two, three, four, or five levels after 20th. This benefit augments each class's progression of class features, because not all classes otherwise improve class features after 20th level. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that every character gets every three levels (as per Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, page 22 of the Player's Handbook)."

I think you have slightly misunderstood me. BF said to assume Ultimate Magus "continues giving a bonus non-epic metamagic feat at every 4th level after 9th, and maybe gives a bonus epic feat at every 4th level after 7th or so". They were suggesting that you continue the nonepic bonus feat progression in addition to gaining a new epic-level bonus feat progression.

The MotAO bonus feat progression at epic levels is a new one; it doesn't follow on from the bonus metamagic feats they gain at nonepic levels, nor does the nonepic progression continue into epic levels in addition to the new progression.

In the paragraph immediately above the one you quote in the DMG it says "If a character gets bonus feats as part of a class feature...these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, these classes get a new bonus feat progression".

[Rebel7284]

Thinking about it more.

1. Hathran is clearly an amazing choice due to the epic feats. Spontaneous casting of any spell a few times a day (or forever with Acorn of Far Travel shenanigans) is clearly great. Circle Magic is broken.

2. Master Transmogrifist is a fun class in Epic. Shapechange is already ridiculous, and this turns it to 11.

3. Mind Mage has some fun class features. Sort of like Ultimate Magus. Lots of free Metamagic and double caster level.

[Contemplative]

Thinking about it more.

3. Mind Mage has some fun class features. Sort of like Ultimate Magus. Lots of free Metamagic and double caster level.

Wow, how have I never seen this before? On second thought, it might be a toss up between this and UM. Any tips for building one, then?

[magic9mushroom]

Wow, how have I never seen this before? On second thought, it might be a toss up between this and UM. Any tips for building one, then?

Because Mind Mage is based on (3.0) Psionics Handbook psionics and is therefore highly dubious in campaigns using the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook. It came out after the 3.5 update, but before the EPH.

[Endarire]

+1 to Hathran.

If you're going Druid, note that you don't need the epic feat Plant Shape when you can do it via other means (class levels, PrCs, or/and the spell enhance wild shape).

[magic9mushroom]

He said he'll have a Warlock cohort, Warlock 12 gets Imbue Item so if the spell could exist in the game world as a divine spell, they could have made a divine scroll of it and say he's learned the spell from the scroll.

I'd kind of like to give you this one, since the RAW is actually really dodgy, but I can't.


(The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class. For example, clerics create scrolls of divine spells, wizards create scrolls of arcane spells, and so forth.)

DMG p.238.

And yes, I know about the giant honking loophole there. As I said, the RAW is dodgy.


"A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram..." It doesn't say that only the trap version can be cast with said diagram.

I'll grant you probable RAW on that one (the only counterargument would be saying that "use its spell resistance" refers to "test the trap"), but not RAMS.


Regarding AoOs, you can start moving from an unthreatened square but any time during your movement if you go into and leave an opponent's threatened space, they get an AoO. Not just when you start moving, but any time during the action when you would provoke an AoO, you do. The same should go for spells, the caster is distracted during the entire casting time, not just upon starting the action, so an opponent being moved into a position to threaten him while he's still casting the spell should give an AoO.


You provoke attacks of opportunity only when you begin casting the spell, even though you might continue casting for longer.

Rules Compendium p.133. There's a Sage Advice which says a similar thing in one of the Dragons, though I forget which one.

[Bphill561]

Not sure if you are using Dragon magazine, but that real opens up your spell options for Archivist.

Arcane Disciple is a cleric variant in Dragon magazine #311. At every level it gets to add a chosen wizard, sorcerer, or bard spell to it spell list as a divine spell.

The customize domain feat in dragon #325 lets you change spells on a domain. Specifically for the magic domain any spell may be picked, it is just one level higher than normal. You can get some other unique Wu Jen spells that are 9th level on other custom domains.

The Chameleon Crafting feat from Dragon #349 lets you craft psionic powers on a divine scroll. No clue how this would scale per caster level, but some have argued it would make divine spell versions of psi powers to learn.

Note you are not taking any of these, but if they exist then the divine spells exist if you can find them...

For spell access, you have another method besides Warlock if you have a good alignment. Ancestral relic from the book of exalted deeds allows you to select a single item that you can enhance through pray. Basically you can sacrifice up to 1000gp a day (it can be anything of value, does not have to be gold) to effectively enchant the relic. You don't have to have any of the crafting feats or met any pre-req's. Choose a pray book with a large fold out page. Sac whatever you want to add scrolls to the book, then copy them over into that pray book or another. Obviously a Baccob's blessed booked keyed to an archivist instead of a wizard would be a useful addition to the pray book. Leadership will get you more millage as the warlock would be able to craft a lot more, and being a cohort gets xp without going along with you. He can just sit in the base and craft away.

Dweomerkeeper grants another way to get all the spells you need, especially at the level you are playing. Supernatural spell eliminates the xp cost on spells. Take the extra spell known feat to pick up a spell of choice. Then use the Embrace/Shun chaos feat shuffle xp free to switch out your bonus spell known feat after you copy the spell into your book. On any down day you could swap the feat and write the spell into your book. You could even change the feat to something more useful for non-scribing days. Usually this is a little cheesy if used on racial elf feats or armor feats, but I don't think it is an abuse if you actual us it on a feat you selected.

A quick DK build:

Archivist 5/ Singer of Concordance 2/Holt Warden 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/ DK 10/ Heirophant 1 (Free reach spell)/DK 4 should work

Play a silverbrowed human from Dragon magic to qualify for the Singer of Concordance. Singer grants the magic domain, Holt warden gives domain slots which allows you to cast arcane spells with AnySpell, and sacred exorcist grants turn undead for divine metamagic. The Heirophant reach spell will allow you to persistent touch spells as they now have a fixed 30 foot range.

DK states you get another supernatural spell every 2 levels after 4 and another spell mantle spell every odd level after 1, so those should progress nicely. Wish is on the Envy domain and with 6 uses of supernatural spell (and spell slots), you can get a full set of inherent bonuses for free.

If you go the Hathran route instead and are using forgotten realms material, the Spelldancer from Magic of Faerun might be a nice addition for free out of combat metamagic.

Warning: Full Cheese
Likewise the Mythal seed for epic spells is pretty nifty, especially if you are able to use the acorn of far travel trick for your circle magic. Also along those lines is the rune circle from Races of the stone which allows you to build a magic item as a non-moving circle at 1/8 the cost. Pick up a feather token (tree, which creates an oak), a levitating small collar (small collar is in the arms and equipment guild), and a slotless ring of sustenance. Float the tree over your rune circle, inside your Mythal, in your native land; you might as well stack all that stuff up if you can use the acorn. Then make poison ring with a continuous acorn of far travel effect and graft it using the weapon grafts in the field folio. It no longer counts as a magic item and cannot be disjoined. This is a great way to get some books thrown at you by the other players/DM. :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd kind of like to give you this one, since the RAW is actually really dodgy, but I can't.

DMG p.238.

And yes, I know about the giant honking loophole there. As I said, the RAW is dodgy.

The Warlock class feature specifically says it can do divine spells, an exception to the rule you've cited. While it doesn't specifically say you aren't making arcane scrolls from divine spells with it, it doesn't say it does allow that to happen, which IS against the RAW. You're honestly grasping at straws to prove the clear RAI wrong.


How about you actually provide some ideas for the build, instead of just attacking someone else's advice?

[Rebel7284]

Because Mind Mage is based on (3.0) Psionics Handbook psionics and is therefore highly dubious in campaigns using the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook. It came out after the 3.5 update, but before the EPH.

While it's true that Mind Mage's timing is a little weird and may be part of the reason it falls through the cracks, there isn't anything in the class abilities that wouldn't work with 3.5 Psionics.

Also, losing a lot of caster/manifester levels is a big deal if you aren't already epic. Like the natural build would be something like Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer +3 which leaves you with Wizard 15/Psion 15 casting which is rough.

[magic9mushroom]

The Warlock class feature specifically says it can do divine spells, an exception to the rule you've cited. While it doesn't specifically say you aren't making arcane scrolls from divine spells with it, it doesn't say it does allow that to happen, which IS against the RAW. You're honestly grasping at straws to prove the clear RAI wrong.

No, it's more complicated than that. There are two separate questions when making a scroll.

1) Do you have access to the spell(s) (either via your own casting, via another caster, or via a magic item)? If no, you can't make it.
2) What class are you? If arcane caster, arcane. If divine caster, divine.

#1 is in common with every other magic item that requires spells to build, while #2 is specific to scrolls alone (because of the dodgy RAW).

A warlock bypasses #1 with Imbue Item ("can create the item as if he had cast the required spell"). However, Imbue Item doesn't say anything about mimicking a class for the purposes of #2. This means that while the warlock can create any sort of item normally except scrolls, and can in fact create scrolls of any spell, the arcane or divine nature of a warlock's scrolls is not defined (because they're not an arcane caster or divine caster). Of course, this doesn't actually affect the warlock himself, because a warlock would have to UMD a scroll regardless of whether it was arcane, divine, or neither. This only affects other people using a warlock's scrolls, which isn't actually that unreasonable since a wizard can't use a cleric's scrolls even for shared spells.

(The giant loophole here is that a divine caster making a scroll of arcane-class-only spells via another spellcaster or a magic item is creating a divine scroll, which gives Archivists access to the entire Sor/Wiz list and Bard list. Like I said, I actually wish the RAW didn't have this quirk.)


How about you actually provide some ideas for the build, instead of just attacking someone else's advice?

I suggested Epic Hathran and the good Epic feats, last I checked.


While it's true that Mind Mage's timing is a little weird and may be part of the reason it falls through the cracks, there isn't anything in the class abilities that wouldn't work with 3.5 Psionics.

There's a reference to Heighten Power, which no longer exists. Several of the psi-spell feats in the article are also reliant on 3.0 powers that were removed. You can still get into the class and figure out what the abilities do, but it feels unclean to me.


Also, losing a lot of caster/manifester levels is a big deal if you aren't already epic. Like the natural build would be something like Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer +3 which leaves you with Wizard 15/Psion 15 casting which is rough.

Eh, kind of. Sure, they don't have access to 9th-level spells and powers, but they have CL/ML 25 from Twin Wells, Same Source. For the psionic side, especially, that is a really big deal. They can also cheat with Compensation to push metamagic and metapsionics beyond the normal limits (of 8th-level and 25 PP respectively), and with Focus of Discipline to prepare 9th-level spells in lower-level slots (assuming Wizard, since you can write spells you can't cast yet into your spellbook). When you add it all up, on the psion side you miss out on 9ths (and EK 8ths) and some PP but have substantially more augmentation capacity and DCs compared to a Psion 20, and on the wizard side you lose some spells/day but still have 9ths (kinda), higher CL and higher DCs compared to a Wizard 20. And you're both at once.