Challenge: Make a remote dungeon-looting party.

[Aquillion]

In another thread, someone mentioned summoning stuff and having it explore the dungeon for you, and that got me thinking.

What's the best party you can come up with to explore and loot dungeons "remotely", with the party members ideally never setting foot in the dungeon at all, or at least only entering areas that have been thoroughly cleaned out and tagged as safe? Alternatively, the party can spend as much time as possible safe in a demiplane, rope trick, or similar heavily-secure area, or can use Guards and Wards and Forbiddance and the like to establish a beachhead in the dungeon that they operate out of remotely.

You can use any level and composition you want, but the more realistic and lower-level, the better (ie. if the party is absurdly big or only works at level 20, it's not worth as much.)

Stuff like summoning things, using remote viewing powers, and so on - what can you accomplish with a minimum of direct interaction, provided the entire party is built from the ground up with that in mind?

[GreyBlack]

In another thread, someone mentioned summoning stuff and having it explore the dungeon for you, and that got me thinking.

What's the best party you can come up with to explore and loot dungeons "remotely", with the party members ideally never setting foot in the dungeon at all, or at least only entering areas that have been thoroughly cleaned out and tagged as safe? Alternatively, the party can spend as much time as possible safe in a demiplane, rope trick, or similar heavily-secure area, or can use Guards and Wards and Forbiddance and the like to establish a beachhead in the dungeon that they operate out of remotely.

You can use any level and composition you want, but the more realistic and lower-level, the better (ie. if the party is absurdly big or only works at level 20, it's not worth as much.)

Stuff like summoning things, using remote viewing powers, and so on - what can you accomplish with a minimum of direct interaction, provided the entire party is built from the ground up with that in mind?

Easy. Just build a 5 man party using the Knight background. The Knight background gives you a vassal that you can order around.

Play a party of Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Warlock.

All of these classes cast various overlapping buff spells on their vassals which they maintain concentration on. These vassals clear out the dungeon and give their feudal lords the loot they find.

As the characters go up in levels, they do stuff like create glyphs of warding that provide buffs to their vassals, as well as providing summoning or undead support. The Wizard and Warlock even send their Familiar in to help the vassals.

Now, obviously the vassals have to come out of the dungeon in order to get rebuffed and such. That's fine. It's still within the parameters.

[nickl_2000]

I think you could do a pretty decent job creating this with a 3 person party.

1) Level 6 Necromancer who focus on making undead. The undead is controlled through the wizards familiar and touch spells are delivered though it. Additionally the wizard will get divination spells
2) Level 6 Shepherd Druid. Their job is to summon and send into the dungeon and buff all summons with the Spirit totem and mighty summoner.
3) Level 5 Pact of the Chain GOOlock - Divination spells, an invisible/intelligent familiar, Voice of the Chain master to be able to order the summons around.


Between the three of these you should be able to create and buff enough summons to be able to explore and make a mess of a lot of dungeons without ever setting foot in a place that is dangerous.

[JackPhoenix]

Easy. Just build a 5 man party using the Knight background. The Knight background gives you a vassal that you can order around.

Play a party of Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Warlock.

All of these classes cast various overlapping buff spells on their vassals which they maintain concentration on. These vassals clear out the dungeon and give their feudal lords the loot they find.

As the characters go up in levels, they do stuff like create glyphs of warding that provide buffs to their vassals, as well as providing summoning or undead support. The Wizard and Warlock even send their Familiar in to help the vassals.

Now, obviously the vassals have to come out of the dungeon in order to get rebuffed and such. That's fine. It's still within the parameters.

You mean the vassals that specifically won't fight for you, won't enter dangerous areas and leave if they are frequently endangered?

[Aquillion]

Plus I think you can't replace them if they die, which is a problem.

I feel focusing on a party intended to summon stuff and hit it with Planar Binding makes more sense.

[Man_Over_Game]

Shephards Druid + Diviner Wizard. The Druid has the most accessible, friendly summons available, so it seems like a clear choice, while the Diviner can use clever usage of Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance, and multiple Mage Armor/Longstrider castings to enhance the Summons.

[Bohandas]

One word: Constructs

[JackPhoenix]

One word: Constructs

One different word: how?

Besides Tiny Servant and Create Homunculus, there isn't an easy way to get construct minions, and it's even harder getting construct minions that can act independently.

[Sigreid]

One different word: how?

Besides Tiny Servant and Create Homunculus, there isn't an easy way to get construct minions, and it's even harder getting construct minions that can act independently.

Simulacra of the party members.

[Man_Over_Game]

Simulacra of the party members.

Simulacra are expensive, can't be healed, and don't benefit from rests.

[JackPhoenix]

Simulacra are expensive, can't be healed, and don't benefit from rests.

Also, half the HP of normal character, and one good Dispel Magic will take them down.

[druid91]

Pay a few dozen men-at-arms.

[Lupine]

Pay a few dozen men-at-arms.

Honestly yeah. Building a summoning party probably isn't the cheapest thing, and will make it hard for them to go in when they really need to, because they won't be combat optimized. This probably is the best way to run this.

It won't be cheap, but the loot can be used to support the army, and allow tougher dungeons to be beaten. In any case, supporting a bunch of men at arms will probably be easier and better for the party than casting a bunch of spells would be.

[ImproperJustice]

Warlock with invisible chain pact familiar, using Beast speech and a small army of awakened Monkeys.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, for a "classic" dungeon run, i.e: beating up monsters and taking their stuff, we will need some way of beating up the monsters to begin with. Simplest way to achieve this is using minions.

Animate Dead and summons being the simples way.

As I said in the other thread, one of the problems that arises from this is issuing commands to summons/undead, and doing stuff not combat related, like... figuring a puzzle to open a room or something like that.

I'd say this is definitely possible by level 9, likely possible at 7.

One of the PCs should focus on making undead, those are long lasting, and make great shock troopers, and any that fall during dungeon exploration can be re-raised later on, or use new bodies. Once Magic Jar and Clone are up, never leave your hidden tomb of horros in your own body. Note that necros also get Conjure Elemental, which makes for elite troops.

LTH makes for a great outpost from where to supervise the assault.

Rary's is a good way to link a summoner to its minion so that he can give orders more specific than "assault the dungeon" if neccesary.

Another PC should go Shepperd Druid, they bring variety to shock troops, and also elite troops.

Divine Sorcerer could bring stuff like Aid and Twinned Warding Bond to protect the lieutenants, while also being capable of summoning stuff later on.

[Aquillion]

You can have a PC use Project Image to oversee the expedition and give orders to undead / summons, provided they've been ordered to obey that person by their summoner or master.

[strangebloke]

The problem with a familiar controlling the lot of them is range. I mean walking a hundred feet behind the real adventurers is still pretty 'remote' but it doesn't quite count.

But that doesn't really matter because you can Daisy chain familiars. You get a ring of spell storing, cast find familiar into it, then give the ring to another familiar and have it cast find familiar. So you can telepathically link to your familiar which is linked to his, etc. You can pass images and voice through the Daisy chain, but not spells.

You get yourself a load of skeletons. Outfit them with Shields, Spears, bows, and chainmail. This gives them 18 AC. Its a little arguable whether they're proficient or not but whatever. We'll assume that it works here. Obviously you're free to mix in scouts, experts, and tiny servants as such things are available. Phantom steeds to give some people mobility.

Anyway, they're pretty long on AC but short on hp. Inspiring leader, aid, mage armor, and the necromancer feature are all relevant here. Eight skeletons with 18 AC and 40 hp are pretty threatening at sixth level.

Lastly, to get some beefier options, summon woodland creatures as your support.

So I'd say, Shepherd, necromancer, and cleric. Divine soul for quantity over quality approach at early levels.

Abjurer has by far the best simulacrum at later levels.

There's also the whole mummy Lord cheese.

Once you get telepathic bond, you can ditch the familiars, and possibly give the skeletons an anti magic tool like a rock with silence cast on it.

Finally, if it's applicable you can nuke the whole dungeon with forbiddance. 5d10 radiant damage a round to fiends, undead, fey, celestials, and elementals throughout the whole dungeon. At that point, all you need to do is kill the weakened monsters that run out and send in the cleaners afterward to deal with traps and treasure.

[GreyBlack]

You mean the vassals that specifically won't fight for you, won't enter dangerous areas and leave if they are frequently endangered?

You have a squire that aids you in exchange for training. All you need to do is frame the dungeon as training for the squire.

[Vogie]

Finally, if it's applicable you can nuke the whole dungeon with forbiddance. 5d10 radiant damage a round to fiends, undead, fey, celestials, and elementals throughout the whole dungeon. At that point, all you need to do is kill the weakened monsters that run out and send in the cleaners afterward to deal with traps and treasure.

That's actually the best one. You need:

A single spellcaster with the spell (at least level 11) - Either Cleric or Bard (via Magical Secrets)
A 3 level dip into Warlock for Chain Pact
Now you can send the familiar in, invisibly cast Forbiddence, then hold the line with your party, blasting every Celestial, Elemental, fey, Fiend, and Undead that is big enough to survive long enough to crawl to the front. Then you stroll go in and get the fat lootz, hopefully making back your 1000g investment.

And I'm not sure if it works, but since Voice of the Chain Master allows your familiar to go further out than just 100 ft from you... as long as you're on the same plane of existence, you may also be able to cast from that far, through your familiar.

[Galithar]

Alright. I don't have a full party build, but a few things that I would think would be helpful, but require DM leniency. If a DM is going to allow this remote looting party I don't think this should be a deal breaker, but maybe they want to allow it here and there without it becoming the norm.

1. Allow familiar 'sense share' to be a toggle. Either I have my senses, or I have theirs. Still an action flip, but not requiring my action every turn. Without this it becomes much more difficult to manage your 'away team' and negates one of my sources of damage.

2. Familiars most remain invisible when delivering a touch spell with their reaction.


Party:
2 Sorlock Chain Pact
2 Druids; 1 Shepard 1 Land with a Life Cleric dip

Strategy: Both Warlocks are going to take Chain because they will be contributing with Invisible Familiars delivering Touch spells. Shocking Grasp as their cantrip and then whatever touch spells they can get. Divine Soul for Inflict Wounds might be a good one. The biggest contribution will be twinned buffs in the Shepard Druids summons.
Shepard Druid will be summoning the main offensive units, who will be guided by the Warlocks instructions.
Land druid will be in charge of healing (giving Familiars/Summons that can hold them) with upcast Goodberries.

Not sure how valid this would be, just a quick brainstorming.

[strangebloke]

That's actually the best one. You need:

A single spellcaster with the spell (at least level 11) - Either Cleric or Bard (via Magical Secrets)
A 3 level dip into Warlock for Chain Pact
Now you can send the familiar in, invisibly cast Forbiddence, then hold the line with your party, blasting every Celestial, Elemental, fey, Fiend, and Undead that is big enough to survive long enough to crawl to the front. Then you stroll go in and get the fat lootz, hopefully making back your 1000g investment.

And I'm not sure if it works, but since Voice of the Chain Master allows your familiar to go further out than just 100 ft from you... as long as you're on the same plane of existence, you may also be able to cast from that far, through your familiar.

Its even better.

The range is 'touch.'

You don't even have to get inside the dungeon. You can land your totally normal familiar on the front door, cast forbiddance, and then hold the line.

And the 1000gp material component isn't consumed unless you spend a month setting up the permanent version.

And its a ritual, so you don't even expend a slot.

Forbiddance is absolutely insane when it works. The only weaknesses it has:

It doesn't hit common enemy types like monstrosities, abberations, oozes, and humanoids.
It can't work on something that already has forbiddance cast on it. (the spell can't overlap.)


To expand on my earlier post, this is the remote dungeon-looting party I would use at 6th level:
1 necromancer: controls 8 undead.
1 shepherd:controls 8 wolves/velociraptors/whatever-the-DM-gives-you
1 war cleric:Just casts aid. Has the inspiring leader feat.
2 hireling thugs:Absent something like a familiar chain, they're given charge over the beasts and undead. ("Do everything Marv here tells you to do.")

Investment: 8 sets of chainmail, shields, bows, etc. Wages for 2 thugs. Whatever armor the thugs can wear.

Tactics: Between various buffs, the raid crew will have somewhere between +10 HP (just from inspiring leader) and +26 HP (necromancer buff[6] + aid[10] + inspiring leader[10]) this will probably be enough to keep most of them alive. The wolves, being in melee and having bad AC will die first, but that's fine because the Druid can summon a new pack. The wolves are the DPR here since they're the only ones that have magic weapons and they're also the ones with good to-hit. The Skeletons are tanks. They can shoot from range and then drop prone to avoid return fire, or they can stand in melee and dodge. The Thugs are the tactical coordinators here, but they're also pretty dangerous if they do have to fight in melee. 2 attacks at +4 with advantage is no joke, and they're hardy enough (52 HP and 16 to 18 AC) that they can survive on the frontlines for quite a while. Whenever the group is ready for a short rest, they can go back upstairs and get healed by a healing spirit from the druid, as well as replenishing the wolfpack. If only the wolves are seriously damaged, they can also just take a short rest like everyone else would.

Overall, I'd expect that this 'remote' party could chew through the allotted encounter schedule for 3 level 6 characters.

I am aware that this plan requires several key assumptions. It relies on monsters having more proficiencies than they are listed with, and also requires hirelings to be available, and also requires somewhat dodgy readings of the ability to command beasts/undead.

Oh yeah, and its a war cleric because if you get a ring of spell storing you can give the whole gang crusader's mantle as a nuke against a boss monster.

[Sigreid]

Simulacra are expensive, can't be healed, and don't benefit from rests.

I was just responding to how you could get a construct, since I had thought I remembered that the sim had been reclassified from illusion to construct.

[OverLordOcelot]

I'm not really enthused about these remote parties - they seem really fragile, and their scheme is only going to work if the DM gives them super easy situations and dumb opponents. "Let's hire hirelings to run the exploration" is either not a valid answer or reduces the whole thing to "Sure, the ideal remote-looting party is one guy with a sack of gold who hires adventurers to do the work for him".

Anything using conjure woodland beings, conjure animals, or conjure elemental runs into the significant problem that those spells only last one hour per cast. That's going to burn parties out of spell slots fast, as exploring a dungeon generally takes time, especially when you are relying on -1 perception creatures like skeletons to do your work. You can relay commands from familiars - but then you have to either all be pact of the chain warlocks or within 100'. I don't think managing the entire venture from 100' away is really all that remote, that's just 'from the next room over'. Familiars are also extremely fragile, anything that does minor AOE damage can wipe familiars out, rendering your horde leaderless.

Also there isn't a good way to pass commands down to a lot of summoned creatures - conjure animals does have them obey verbal commands from the druid, but nothing in the spell says that they can follow commands from someone else. The problem isn't their willingness to do it after you command them to, but that most beasts don't have a humanoid language to talk to them in, so there's no way for anyone but you to command them. The spell clearly lets them understand your commands, the language doesn't include anyone else. You run into a similar problem with non-humanoid skeletons skeletons, as they only know the languages they knew in life.

The forbiddance trick sounds neat until you cast it on a dungeon built for an 11+ level party and discover that there are lots of people inside who can cast dispel magic and know that there is someone hostile attempting to invade their lair. Then you have everything in the dungeon headed for you, and they can probably assemble before you finish your next ritual cast. And that's if the dungeon isn't already forbiddanced or otherwise warded since... it's meant to need a tier 3 party to clear.

The limited duration, limited control, and limited ability to investigate and interact with objects will greatly reduce the dungeons that this party could successfully clear, and the fact that they have to burn a lot of spell slots but still need to be in the immediate area leaves them very vulnerable to ambush.

[Sigreid]

I think the best answer is the players roll level 1 characters and their main characters hire them to deal with the goblin lair.

[Aquillion]

2 hireling thugs:Absent something like a familiar chain, they're given charge over the beasts and undead. ("Do everything Marv here tells you to do.")Project Image seems like it would work here, too.


The forbiddance trick sounds neat until you cast it on a dungeon built for an 11+ level party and discover that there are lots of people inside who can cast dispel magic and know that there is someone hostile attempting to invade their lair. Then you have everything in the dungeon headed for you, and they can probably assemble before you finish your next ritual cast. And that's if the dungeon isn't already forbiddanced or otherwise warded since... it's meant to need a tier 3 party to clear.This seems like an excellent chance to set up an area protected by Guards and Wards at the dungeon's entrance, maybe with some Faithful Hounds at key points and summons send out to meet enemies there. Basically, turn the dungeon into tower defense.

[strangebloke]

I'm not really enthused about these remote parties - they seem really fragile, and their scheme is only going to work if the DM gives them super easy situations and dumb opponents. "Let's hire hirelings to run the exploration" is either not a valid answer or reduces the whole thing to "Sure, the ideal remote-looting party is one guy with a sack of gold who hires adventurers to do the work for him".

I mean, I HOPE that no one is actually recommending this playstyle. And yeah, these strategies have a decent chance of failure. My whole plan basically gets nuked the first time a flameskull shows up. It's just a thought experiment of what the best setup would look like. Its just for fun. :)

I also think that there's a big difference between hiring a group of adventurers, and hiring two CR 1/2 thugs and a scout and summoning a whole bunch of stuff to take on level-appropriate threats.

Finally, yes, these methods require a DM who's on board. But that's true of anything. If your DM interprets the rules for animate dead maliciously, animate dead goes from a great spell to signing your own death warrant. If you venture out of the tavern and piss off your DM by doing so (rightly or wrongly) he may just drop rocks on you.

This isn't 3.5 where people seriously argue that "This strategy is completely unbeatable and will make your DM cry!" I like to think we've moved past that.


Anything using conjure woodland beings, conjure animals, or conjure elemental runs into the significant problem that those spells only last one hour per cast. That's going to burn parties out of spell slots fast, as exploring a dungeon generally takes time, especially when you are relying on -1 perception creatures like skeletons to do your work. You can relay commands from familiars - but then you have to either all be pact of the chain warlocks or within 100'. I don't think managing the entire venture from 100' away is really all that remote, that's just 'from the next room over'. Familiars are also extremely fragile, anything that does minor AOE damage can wipe familiars out, rendering your horde leaderless.

The Conjured Animals are the reinforcements/DPR. You don't need them down there all the time. Perhaps you're right that a Chain Pact Warlock is a neccesary addition. Fair enough I'll add him to the roster.

This familiar isn't going to be that fragile however. 10 + 10 (inspiring leader) + 10 (aid) = 30 isn't too shabby, especially when stacked with greater invisibility and flight. Probably don't want to send him through the door first though.


Also there isn't a good way to pass commands down to a lot of summoned creatures - conjure animals does have them obey verbal commands from the druid, but nothing in the spell says that they can follow commands from someone else. The problem isn't their willingness to do it after you command them to, but that most beasts don't have a humanoid language to talk to them in, so there's no way for anyone but you to command them. The spell clearly lets them understand your commands, the language doesn't include anyone else. You run into a similar problem with non-humanoid skeletons skeletons, as they only know the languages they knew in life.

"I command you to do what this man says."

The beasts are fey spirits and obey any verbal commands given. I would argue that this implies that they understand you, whatever your language is. YMMV as to whether that makes them understand people speaking the same language as you, but its not an unreasonable reading.


The forbiddance trick sounds neat until you cast it on a dungeon built for an 11+ level party and discover that there are lots of people inside who can cast dispel magic and know that there is someone hostile attempting to invade their lair. Then you have everything in the dungeon headed for you, and they can probably assemble before you finish your next ritual cast. And that's if the dungeon isn't already forbiddanced or otherwise warded since... it's meant to need a tier 3 party to clear.

Oh sure, it isn't a strategy that is going to work all the time.

But there are a lot of relatively high CR enemies that don't really have any means of answering this. I went through the whole dmg and of all the creatures that would be affected, I found 6 that could dispel magic.


Death Knight (CR 17)
Lich (CR 21)
Glabrezu (CR 9)
Nyacaloth (CR 9)
Ultroloth (CR 13)
Mummy Lord (CR 15)


Demilichs, Balors, Pit fiends, Mummies, Solars, and a host of other outsiders have no way of dealing with this. There are only two creatures below CR 13 at all. There are ways to make it better, too. You can select which parts of the structure get forbiddanced, meaning you don't have to aggro the whole hive. You can cast Guards and Wards to ensure that the creatures can't get out of the dungeon to get to you without casting loads of dispel magics or using powerful (level 4+) teleportation. You can have a series of casters working on the forbiddance ritual in sequence such that 2-3 rounds after the first forbiddance is dispelled, another one drops. Each casting drops 55 radant damage with no save, so if the dungeon was mostly populated by undead and outsiders... they dead.

Lots of times it just won't work. The dungeon will have forbiddance on it already, or the monsters will be mostly abberations or humanoids. But its hilarious when it does work and completely relevant to this discussion.

The limited duration, limited control, and limited ability to investigate and interact with objects will greatly reduce the dungeons that this party could successfully clear, and the fact that they have to burn a lot of spell slots but still need to be in the immediate area leaves them very vulnerable to ambush.

As to ambushes, Leomund's Tiny Hut says hi. At least throughout tier 2. But there are plenty of options for this sort of thing. See the aforementioned Guards and Wards.


Project Image seems like it would work here, too.
The challenge was to do it at as low a level as possible. Project Image is 7th level, and by that point there are better strategies available than using thugs and skeletons.

[OverLordOcelot]

Finally, yes, these methods require a DM who's on board. But that's true of anything. If your DM interprets the rules for animate dead maliciously, animate dead goes from a great spell to signing your own death warrant. If you venture out of the tavern and piss off your DM by doing so (rightly or wrongly) he may just drop rocks on you.

No, they don't just require a DM who's on board with trying it, or isn't being malicious. It requires a DM who plays enemies really dumb, at the level of MMO-monsters that don't do anything until you aggro them stupidity. It requires a DM who custom-writes and adventure that suits this party, because most published adventures don't support this kind of play. There's a difference between "you walk out of the tavern so rocks fall on you" and "You show up with an army of humanoids and spend a couple of hours casting spells before sending the army in, at some point someone notice all of this". I like to do thought experiments that are something you could actually try, and most of these suggestions aren't stuff that you could really do and expect to succeed at.


The Conjured Animals are the reinforcements/DPR. You don't need them down there all the time. Perhaps you're right that a Chain Pact Warlock is a neccesary addition. Fair enough I'll add him to the roster.

The range on conjure animals is 60'. If you're close enough to any given fight that you can cast them in as reinforcements before the fight is settled, then you don't really qualify as remote control. Also if you are summoning them on the fly then you don't have the 20 minutes (10 minutes per six) to buff them out with inspiring leader, and if you're summoning them in advance the buff time cuts significantly into the time they'll be active. Even ignoring the problem of directing them, they are extremely limited by time and range.


The beasts are fey spirits and obey any verbal commands given. I would argue that this implies that they understand you, whatever your language is. YMMV as to whether that makes them understand people speaking the same language as you, but its not an unreasonable reading.

The first bit is an incorrect rendering of the spell, the spell does not say they obey any verbal commands given. It specifically says verbal commands given by the caster. It doesn't say that they understand any particular language, just that they understand the caster. I do not think it is reasonable to decide that because they understand any commands given by the caster that they understand commands given by anyone, the wording of the spell is quite specific. I know at least a dozen DMs and none of them would accept that argument.


But there are a lot of relatively high CR enemies that don't really have any means of answering this. I went through the whole dmg and of all the creatures that would be affected, I found 6 that could dispel magic.

Why are there demons hanging around in a dungeon on the prime plane without any humanoid casters? NPC Mages, priests, and warlocks turn up all the time with demons and undead, usually the reason there are big scary demons running around is that there is some kind of plot where they've been called in. Again, what you're describing doesn't sound like a real D&D dungeon, it sounds like an MMO-style thing that you can just blow through easily.


There are ways to make it better, too. You can select which parts of the structure get forbiddanced, meaning you don't have to aggro the whole hive. You can cast Guards and Wards to ensure that the creatures can't get out of the dungeon to get to you without casting loads of dispel magics or using powerful (level 4+) teleportation. You can have a series of casters working on the forbiddance ritual in sequence such that 2-3 rounds after the first forbiddance is dispelled, another one drops. Each casting drops 55 radant damage with no save, so if the dungeon was mostly populated by undead and outsiders... they dead.

Dude... seriously. This is exactly what I mean about a DM just letting you do stuff - you've got a dungeon of pure outsiders that are just sitting around with no patrols, alarms, lookouts, or scrying of their own who don't notice when you show up with an army of 20+ humanoids and spend several hours just outside giving inspiring speeches and casting long duration spells. Sure, if the DM just hands you a perfect target for spells and plays Int 20 enemies like they're dumb MMO creatures waiting to get aggroed then this will work. But I'm not even sure what the point of playing the game is if the challenge level is that preposterously low.


As to ambushes, Leomund's Tiny Hut says hi. At least throughout tier 2. But there are plenty of options for this sort of thing. See the aforementioned Guards and Wards.

Leomund's tiny hut says you can't cast any spells across it. So whichever caster casts that spell can't do other spells. And Leomund's tiny hut goes down to dispel magic, which is also a tier 2 spell.

[strangebloke]

No, they don't just require a DM who's on board with trying it, or isn't being malicious. It requires a DM who plays enemies really dumb, at the level of MMO-monsters that don't do anything until you aggro them stupidity. It requires a DM who custom-writes and adventure that suits this party, because most published adventures don't support this kind of play. There's a difference between "you walk out of the tavern so rocks fall on you" and "You show up with an army of humanoids and spend a couple of hours casting spells before sending the army in, at some point someone notice all of this". I like to do thought experiments that are something you could actually try, and most of these suggestions aren't stuff that you could really do and expect to succeed at.
LOL, the published modules I've played through do not have complex behaviors for monsters described in them. If there are regular patrols etc. that's very reasonable, but its up to the DM to add such things. I mean, good grief. Lost Mines of Phandelvr would be fricking impossible if the flameskull and undead all gathered in one room once they realized that there was a party of warriors attacking.

There are different styles of play. I don't run dungeons like this, but several tables I've sat at basically do keep the monsters in their rooms unless something really big happens. Heck, half the time a 'dungeon' will have several factions of monsters that aren't working together.


The range on conjure animals is 60'. If you're close enough to any given fight that you can cast them in as reinforcements before the fight is settled, then you don't really qualify as remote control. Also if you are summoning them on the fly then you don't have the 20 minutes (10 minutes per six) to buff them out with inspiring leader, and if you're summoning them in advance the buff time cuts significantly into the time they'll be active. Even ignoring the problem of directing them, they are extremely limited by time and range.

I'm trying to parse out your actual argument.

You're saying that the dungeon is so large that exploration will definitely take more than 1-2 hours of in-game time without reaching a rest point, but monsters are also intelligent and will therefore gather and attack en masse as soon as they're aware of the threat. Is that right?

The wolves don't need the buffs as much as the rest. They're expendable. So you can apply your buffs (all of which last longer than 8 hours) roll up to wherever your safe space (relatively speaking) is and then summon the wolves as the expendable frontline. If the baddies are within an hour's travel, the wolves serve their purpose, and since you're asserting that the enemies will concentrate power, the wolves' short lifespan isn't a major drawback because you're facing down one deadly encounter. If you're facing many smaller encounters, (hit and run goblins) the skeletons are more useful.


Obviously this doesn't always work. But I'm not saying this is a perfect strat. I'm CERTAINLY not saying that you should play this way.

The first bit is an incorrect rendering of the spell, the spell does not say they obey any verbal commands given. It specifically says verbal commands given by the caster. It doesn't say that they understand any particular language, just that they understand the caster. I do not think it is reasonable to decide that because they understand any commands given by the caster that they understand commands given by anyone, the wording of the spell is quite specific. I know at least a dozen DMs and none of them would accept that argument.
Well, I mean, they don't understand it if you think at them. They understand verbal commands. Your words, that is. Which is a more convoluted argument? That the creatures can understand you, or that they are compulsed by magic to do whatever words come from the caster's mouth, without understanding what he's saying?

I know a dozen DMs too. The plural of anecdote is not data.


Why are there demons hanging around in a dungeon on the prime plane without any humanoid casters? NPC Mages, priests, and warlocks turn up all the time with demons and undead, usually the reason there are big scary demons running around is that there is some kind of plot where they've been called in. Again, what you're describing doesn't sound like a real D&D dungeon, it sounds like an MMO-style thing that you can just blow through easily.

Okay.

What about undead? There are definitely lots of old forgotten tombs full of those. I mean that's kinda what a dungeon is like, yeah?

And maybe there were human demonologists, but they weren't casters, just people with a couple of artifacts? Or maybe they were casters, but the demons ate them?

I'm not goin' full Tippy here and saying that this is the only way to play. Heck, I'm not even saying its an effective or fun way to play. I'm just trying to say its a cool niche trick to talk about.


Dude... seriously. This is exactly what I mean about a DM just letting you do stuff - you've got a dungeon of pure outsiders that are just sitting around with no patrols, alarms, lookouts, or scrying of their own who don't notice when you show up with an army of 20+ humanoids and spend several hours just outside giving inspiring speeches and casting long duration spells. Sure, if the DM just hands you a perfect target for spells and plays Int 20 enemies like they're dumb MMO creatures waiting to get aggroed then this will work. But I'm not even sure what the point of playing the game is if the challenge level is that preposterously low.

You're being hyperbolic, and combining different scenarios. The Guards and Wards and Forbiddance strat is done 100' away from the dungeon with 3-4 spellcasters in about ten minutes. There's no 20+ humans involved, and certainly no "hours of buffing."

In the level 6 scenario, there are 13-14 humanoids, and the total buff/summon/inspire time comes out to about 21 minutes. If you do the buffs in the morning (They last for eight hours) all that need be done when you're close is summon some wolves and then leave.


Leomund's tiny hut says you can't cast any spells across it. So whichever caster casts that spell can't do other spells. And Leomund's tiny hut goes down to dispel magic, which is also a tier 2 spell.

No spells are being cast across the barrier in any case.

And once again, dispel magic is actually pretty rare. I actually don't think there's a single monster below CR 7 that has it. And gee, I don' know, maybe the enemy caster didn't feel like hunting after the tiny impenetrable dome half a mile from his castle and instead focused on the death squad that was actually attacking his base. I mean, even asssuming he has perfect knowledge, killing the control team doesn't actually accomplish anything other than maybe killing the wolves and making the undead less organized. The buffs are all still in effect.

This is definitely going beyond "This is the only reasonable way for a DM to run things if you try this."

[OverLordOcelot]

I'm trying to parse out your actual argument.

You're saying that the dungeon is so large that exploration will definitely take more than 1-2 hours of in-game time without reaching a rest point, but monsters are also intelligent and will therefore gather and attack en masse as soon as they're aware of the threat. Is that right?

No, that's wildly incorrect. I'm pointing out multiple problems with multiple things that have been posted, not claiming that everything always happens in every scenario. Lets point out the time issues with your 6th level example:

You talked about a raiding party of 3 6th level PCS, 2 Thugs, 8 skeletons, and 8 wolves all with aid and inspiring leader, then in this thread you talk about the party doing that setting up their spot "half a mile from his castle". So let's examine how this works: you summon the wolves, don't bother casting aid (see below), then spend 20 minutes inspiring the wolves, since you only get six in each round of inspiration. You then spend 10 minutes walking your party to the dungeon (normal movement is 3 miles per hour, so 10 minutes to cover half a mile). You've already blown half of your conjuration time just getting to the door, so now you're down to a half hour for two dumb thugs that you can't easily communicate with who have no proficiency in perception, investigation, or thief's tools to bypass any traps or locks, solve any puzzles, and get to any fights or treasure. You get two more half hour jaunts, then you're out of druid summons. You also assumed aid upcast to third level on everything in the example, but the 6th level cleric with 3x 3rd level slots can only buff 9 targets with +10 HP aid. So you can't even get that on the thugs and skeletons, much less the wolves, and can't get it on anything that you summon as reinforcements, or the party who might get ambushed while their spell slots and hirelings are exploring the dungeon.


The wolves don't need the buffs as much as the rest. They're expendable. So you can apply your buffs (all of which last longer than 8 hours) roll up to wherever your safe space (relatively speaking) is and then summon the wolves as the expendable frontline. If the baddies are within an hour's travel, the wolves serve their purpose, and since you're asserting that the enemies will concentrate power, the wolves' short lifespan isn't a major drawback because you're facing down one deadly encounter. If you're facing many smaller encounters, (hit and run goblins) the skeletons are more useful.

At no point did I assert "the enemies will concentrate power". It's possible (and likely) that will happen if you're doing something like casting a giant AOE spell against everything in a dungeon, but it's not always going to happen. The problem you run into with the skeleton crew is more likely to be that the dumb thugs you hired can't explore and search all that well, and that you run out of conjure time before they can brute force their way through the obstacles to even get to the enemy.


Well, I mean, they don't understand it if you think at them. They understand verbal commands. Your words, that is. Which is a more convoluted argument? That the creatures can understand you, or that they are compulsed by magic to do whatever words come from the caster's mouth, without understanding what he's saying?

The non-convoluted argument that follows exactly what the spell says is that they understand the caster's verbal commands, but don't gain other, unlisted abilities from the spell, like the ability to understand verbal commands from people who aren't the caster who don't speak their language. It's incredibly simple and direct, and I'm not sure what you think is at all convoluted about that.


You're being hyperbolic, and combining different scenarios. The Guards and Wards and Forbiddance strat is done 100' away from the dungeon with 3-4 spellcasters in about ten minutes. There's no 20+ humans involved, and certainly no "hours of buffing."

At no point did I say there were 20+ humans involved, a large portion of the number it is the necromancer pack of inspired, aided, heavy armor wearing skeletons, which should have at least doubled from 6-11. Is the forbiddance party suddenly not using the pack of undead and conjured creatures strategy at all? Because if they don't have any minions, they will have to clear the post-forbiddance dungeon themselves, which disqualifies them from the thread challenge. If they do, then yes there is over an hour of buffing if you don't add any more long cast spells - you're looking at a minute to get the aid spells going, then 40 minutes to get inspiring leader spread around, then 10 minutes for guards and wards, and 10 minutes for ritual forbiddance. You're probably also wanting to throw in some other rituals, like a leomund's hut somewhere for a protected spot.


And once again, dispel magic is actually pretty rare. I actually don't think there's a single monster below CR 7 that has it.

DM's are not limited to monsters in the monster manual, and are encouraged to swap out spells in the spell lists of existing caster monsters and have monsters use magic items that they carry. "Nothing as listed in the monster manual has this" just doesn't mean much.


And gee, I don' know, maybe the enemy caster didn't feel like hunting after the tiny impenetrable dome half a mile from his castle and instead focused on the death squad that was actually attacking his base. I mean, even asssuming he has perfect knowledge, killing the control team doesn't actually accomplish anything other than maybe killing the wolves and making the undead less organized. The buffs are all still in effect.

Killing the party of adventurers that's trying to invade your base is usually a good idea, and accomplishes keeping them from killing you. Killing off the casters who have burnt most of their spell slots on minions that aren't currently near them sounds like a fun and profitable activity. The 'death squad' becomes really ineffective if the wolf part vanishes and the thugs have no reason to do anything but offer to stand down the undead so they can leave the area.

[Aquillion]

I mean, I HOPE that no one is actually recommending this playstyle.It's not something I would bring to an unsuspecting table, but it seems like some sort of "Dungeon Extraction Corp" could be fun to play around with. It'd be a sort of comedy / social campaign with some combat, where most of the focus is on dealing with when things inevitably go wrong.

[Unoriginal]

If the PCs do stuff that alert the whole dungeon of their presence and the enemies in the dungeons are working together, most of the time the free-willed combatants who aren't guarding important things will either come all at once and pile up on the intruders ASAP, or reach a defensive position then try to kill the intruders from there.

Going at the door of a dungeon and starting a spells-and-speeches concerto in the open is definitively suicide, if the dungeon isn't populated only with basic undeads, constructs without independence or beings that are too into their work to care.

[sambojin]

Chainlock's familiar "speaks in your voice", so can be an easy get around to ordering around summons from a distance.

So Shepherd 6/Chainlock 3? After your two summon waves are dead, you and your buddies can go and clear up the mess.

[Sigreid]

I could actually see doing this as a one shot, letting people play creatures straight out of the book. Could be a great idea if you have players who want to spend an evening playing fire elementals, Angel's, demons or whatever.

[strangebloke]

It seems like we need to set terms.

When I hear someone say "dungeon" I imagine the titular mines from the lost mines of phandelvr. A large underground complex with 3-4 different classes of monsters all of whom call the place home but are not necessarily allied or even cordial. At such a place I think it's entirely unreasonable that all the various monster types, many of which are dumb beasts, aberrations, or undead, to suddenly set aside their differences and mob the opposition as soon as any threat becomes visible.

Each faction containing an intelligent race might behave in this way, but that's a subset of the total dungeon, and due to the presence of other factions they'll prefer a defensive approach.

Now if you have something like a hobgoblin camp, that is completely different. Even then, I would like to remind everyone that none of the strategies I have proposed involve anything more than casting a single summoning spell 20 minutes from the entrance, or casting a single ritual spell from cover 100' from the perimeter of the place.

[OverLordOcelot]

Going at the door of a dungeon and starting a spells-and-speeches concerto in the open is definitively suicide, if the dungeon isn't populated only with basic undeads, constructs without independence or beings that are too into their work to care.

That and one of the strategies relies on hiring two thugs, then putting trust in their honesty and integrity while they run minions to clear the entire dungeon and come back. From a gameplay perspective, it's pretty awful - the party will show up, summon a bunch of stuff, then the DM will resolve the adventure with no player intervention. This doesn't seem like a good way to play the game - remote clearing with familiar guidance and scrying and the like could be an interesting approach, but "we hand the entire adventure over to NPCs" is just plain lame.

In-world, it seems like a good way to end up with two thugs who take your undead murder squad into the dungeon, maybe find some quick loot, then high-tail it to the nearest village. If it's reasonably small, they use the murder squad to attack and loot the town while telling them they're doing it for the party member's names, then put all the loot (including 8 sets of fully functional chain mail) onto a wagon and head off to enjoy their riches, while leaving the party with a reputation as foul village-slaughtering necromancers.

I mean, you did hire someone who's job description (and literal stat block name) is "thug", create a murder squad, tell it to obey them, then send them off unsupervised expecting them to bring you money. Why did you expect a good outcome from this scenario?

[OverLordOcelot]

When I hear someone say "dungeon" I imagine the titular mines from the lost mines of phandelvr.

I imagine places that have traps, tricks, hidden chambers, decisions to make, groups that may or may not be hostile to the party, and a host of other things that will most likely lead disaster when two dumb thugs with a bunch of undead and summons try to make a speed run with no ongoing input from the PCs.


Now if you have something like a hobgoblin camp, that is completely different. Even then, I would like to remind everyone that none of the strategies I have proposed involve anything more than casting a single summoning spell 20 minutes from the entrance, or casting a single ritual spell from cover 100' from the perimeter of the place.

Actually, your original 6th level strategy involved casting a ritual spell 10 minutes from the entrance (Leomund's hut), then conjuring wildlife and spending 20 minutes giving speeches to buff it, plus twice as many 3rd level aid spells as the party has, leaving you with a half hour of dungeon exploration before the conjures go poof. Just to reiterate, it's going to be making a lot of noise, as you have 8 skeletons with disadvantage on a +2 stealth roll, two thugs with +0 stealth rolls, and 8 creatures of some sort.

If the forbiddance strategy is just casting one spell from cover, how does the party remote-explore the dungeon, or deal with enemies when they come out? You mentioned guards and wards later, which is another 10 minute cast, and presumably they'd have minions to buff and leomund's huts to shelter in for when something comes pouring out of the dungeon after the cast.

[strangebloke]

I mean, you did hire someone who's job description (and literal stat block name) is "thug", create a murder squad, tell it to obey them, then send them off unsupervised expecting them to bring you money. Why did you expect a good outcome from this scenario?

Yeah, I'd expect that you do want a chain warlock along for the ride to issue the commands, even if its just to have the party play a more active role and for them to have a line of communcation open.

But ultimately, man, I have to ask you: "what is your point?" As I've stated repeatedly, I don't think that this is a fun way to play outside of maybe trying it once just for laughs. I don't think its a good way to play. I just think that its the best way to meet the challenge as presented by the thread.

You're really aggressively wording your posts, saying things like "I'm not impressed by this playstle" and "This playstyle is fragile and weak."

Yes, it is. I have repeatedly acknowledged this. But AFAICT, this is the best way of going about a bad playstyle.

If you want to change the challenge and talk about "The best dungeon-looting party period" or "The best party for conducting a remote raid on a fortified position." My answer would dramatically change.


I imagine places that have traps, tricks, hidden chambers, decisions to make, groups that may or may not be hostile to the party, and a host of other things that will most likely lead disaster when two dumb thugs with a bunch of undead and summons try to make a speed run with no ongoing input from the PCs.

Traps are less of a problem when you have expendable minions.

Hidden chambers would probably be missed, yeah. That's a downside of going remote. There is a chain familiar who probably has a +something or other to perception. In any case once things are cleared out you can take your time looking for such things which isn't a big deal.

As to turning potential enemies into allies, the chain warlock can open diplomatic options if those are available.


Actually, your original 6th level strategy involved casting a ritual spell 10 minutes from the entrance (Leomund's hut), then conjuring wildlife and spending 20 minutes giving speeches to buff it, plus twice as many 3rd level aid spells as the party has, leaving you with a half hour of dungeon exploration before the conjures go poof. Just to reiterate, it's going to be making a lot of noise, as you have 8 skeletons with disadvantage on a +2 stealth roll, two thugs with +0 stealth rolls, and 8 creatures of some sort.

My original solution had limitations and assumptions, and I've shown that there are easy ways to change it up if there are concerns about the monsters from the dungeon coming out. Conventionally, I would say that with a 'dungeon' there's not a serious worry about such things. If the monsters are intensely reactive and are going to pour out of the dungeon to strike at you, that's not... really a dungeon. That's a bunch of monsters in a fortress that are out to getcha.

If you are attacking something with more proactive monsters (IE, they have scouts and such), the strategy obviously needs to change. I showed how you could change it up. You buff at the start of the day, drop the wolves when you're somewhat close, and then run away.

If we're truly talking about a fortress of fully organized, reactive monsters, (a hobgoblin holdfast) then the strategy changes still more. My guess would be that your best bet at that point would be to send a wave of beasts and then ride away on a couple of phantom steeds, hide somewhere in the wilderness, and then come back and repeat the next day. It wouldn't work very well at all. You'd have to hope that whatever beasts you get are actually capable of getting over walls and through doors and the like. If you have a better idea of what would work, I'm all ears.


If the forbiddance strategy is just casting one spell from cover, how does the party remote-explore the dungeon, or deal with enemies when they come out? You mentioned guards and wards later, which is another 10 minute cast, and presumably they'd have minions to buff and leomund's huts to shelter in for when something comes pouring out of the dungeon after the cast.

Well, it'd be 3-4 casters casting from cover.

No minions.

No Leomunds.

Just four guys barraging the place from rituals at range. One guy drops guards and wards. Another guy drops forbiddance. A third guy drops forbiddance again when/if the first forbiddance gets dispelled. Fourth guy has a fourth casting.

They might bring out minions etc. to do the looting after the threats in the dungeon have been dealt with, but the forbiddance trick is mostly just a way of killing off the bulk of the creatures in a dungeon.

Once again, its a niche strategy that has a lot of ways to go wrong. I'm just not aware of anything else that plausibly works at that level.

[OverLordOcelot]

But ultimately, man, I have to ask you: "what is your point?" As I've stated repeatedly, I don't think that this is a fun way to play outside of maybe trying it once just for laughs. I don't think its a good way to play. I just think that its the best way to meet the challenge as presented by the thread.

My point is exactly what I said before, that I'm not impressed with a number of ideas that have been offered because they don't work, or if they do work are set up in an incredibly fragile and error prone way. Threads that explore unusual playstyles often come up with interesting ideas that can be applied in other places, but for the ideas to be workable they have to, well, work. A lot of the things being presented here have major issues, like using summons that last for an hour while also spending 40 minutes on buffing and travel time for them.


You're really aggressively wording your posts, saying things like "I'm not impressed by this playstle" and "This playstyle is fragile and weak."

Yes, it is. I have repeatedly acknowledged this. But AFAICT, this is the best way of going about a bad playstyle.

I literally have made neither statement that you put in quotes anywhere in this thread, if anything is 'aggressive' it's pretending that I said things that I didn't. To be clear, I do not think that the play style is fragile and weak (again, I didn't say so) but that the examples offered are. You're the one "aggressively" and repeatedly calling it a bad playstyle, not me, and acting like I'm supposed to stop posting to the thread because you agreed with your own position is just bizarre.


If you want to change the challenge and talk about "The best dungeon-looting party period" or "The best party for conducting a remote raid on a fortified position." My answer would dramatically change.

At no point did I express interest in changing the challenge, I have no idea why you think I would want to do that.

[strangebloke]

Have a nice day.

[Damon_Tor]

I guess a Beastmaster Ranger could use a pair of Sending Stones to send him the commands he needs to attack each turn. The ranger can use Speak with Animals as a ritual non-stop to allow for two-way communication: nothing requires the ranger actually see the creature it wants the companion to attack, so as long as he has a reasonably intelligent companion (Int 3 companions should probably be capable of distinguishing a goblin from an orc and recognizing weapon and armor types). The ritual is probably unnecessary as long as someone else in the party has a limitless Chain Pact familiar to describe the room.

[kinem]

Go to a tavern, find some adventurous dupes, and promise them a reward for clearing the dungeon for you.

[Unoriginal]

Go to a tavern, find some adventurous dupes, and promise them a reward for clearing the dungeon for you.

Questgiver Adventure.

[Damon_Tor]

So for spells/class features that work well for this, we've got:

Voice of the Chain Master Warlocks, who can see through their familiars (Imps and Quasits and Sprites and such) and order them to attack anywhere on the same plane as them. The normal 100 foot limit on touch spells is still in effect. These will be sneaky, and do good damage with an attack, but will tend to be fragile. Level 3+

Beastmaster Rangers, assuming they have access to Stones of Sending so they can order their pets to attack. The ranger is either given information about the dungeon via the chain pact warlock verbally, or by casting the Speak with Animals spell as a ritual ceaselessly so their own companion can narrate via the sending stones. These will do okay damage, but they have better hitpoints. They have the best AC and saves of the options here, making them our "tanks". Rangers also have Goodberry, which they can send along with the Superpets so they can heal themselves. Level 3+

Paladins can send in their mounts, summoned via Find Steed and later Find Greater Steed. Telepathy functions within 1 mile, so he doesn't need sending stones like the ranger does. The mount also doesn't require the paladin to take any particular action to allow it to attack, and it has an int of at least 6, so it's a pretty capable combatant on its own, so the paladin can pretty much just chill and give it general directives. Paladins also have Aid, which is an 8-hour maximum HP buff which effects three creatures. Level 5+

Wizards/Sorcerers have things at later levels that can work well: Planar Binding is a good example of a fairly open-ended spell that can allow them to stretch the duration of a summon out long enough to matter. At early levels there's really just Animate Dead, which can create a number of disposable shock troops using general orders like "protect the horse and bear". Level 5+

The summons of druids don't last enough to be relevant. Sorry druids.

[OverLordOcelot]

So for spells/class features that work well for this, we've got:

It looks to me like you can't hit in your regular weight class with any of the options, you're always sending a bit of things that would be even better if you concentrated them with you. It seems like the remote fighting setup is better as an extreme scouting setup into an area that prevents scrying, where you can use the warlock and ranger communication to explore the dungeon from afar. You can beat really weak encounters, but the stronger stuff will wipe out your handful of minions. (It also gets really expensive if you're using planar binding). This kind of technique seems really well suited to figuring out if something major is in a particular place without going in yourself - you can drop enough crap in that if 'the big guy' is in the area he'll come wipe out the minions, but your actual selves are far enough away to make an exit when the familiar radio link goes down, and you're mostly just risking some spell slots and components.


The summons of druids don't last enough to be relevant. Sorry druids.

The regular summons don't, and the Shepherd totem has too short of a range. The one thing druids with money to burn can bring to the table is the ability to conjure and planar bind high level fey, as only druids and warlocks get conjure fey (not conjure woodland creatures, I'm talking about the 6th level spell). The regular list of them is pretty barren (though there is some decent tank and healing options), but if you're in a campaign with a bigger variety of fey (and a plethora of cash) this could really flesh out your planar binding hit squad.

[stoutstien]

Druids also get awaken and are the only class that can use the staff of the woodlands can makes that 8 hour casting time an action
Awake trees aren't strong but being able to make one every day can really add up. Start hunting for wildlife to awaken for scouts and maybe air support.

[Damon_Tor]

Maybe the lore bard is best for this since It can cherrypick spells. Find Greater Steed -> Peryton does good damage, slap Aid on him with your highest spell slot to beef him up and pack him a lunch of Goodberries. Send in a bunch of skeletons in with him as backup. Once you can cast Planar Binding at a high enough level to be cost effective naturally you supplement with bound elementals/fey you've summoned.

[stoutstien]

How does polymorph or feeblemind work with awaken?

[OverLordOcelot]

Druids also get awaken and are the only class that can use the staff of the woodlands can makes that 8 hour casting time an action
Awake trees aren't strong but being able to make one every day can really add up. Start hunting for wildlife to awaken for scouts and maybe air support.

I see three problems with this, one mechanical, one definitional, and one moral/ethical. The first is that awakened trees and most tough beasts are huge size - they just don't fit into a lot of dungeons. This limits how useful they are, as they won't be able to join the rest of the remote party, especially if the remote party is composed of familiars and elementals, who can fit into some tiny spaces. The second problem is that awaken creates fully intelligent NPCs not under the casters control. For me, they'd be like hirelings, and wouldn't really count as a remote controlled party. The final problem is that you're creating independent, intelligent beings and sending them off on adventures too dangerous for you personally under the influence of a charm spell. I think this poses a moral and ethical issue for anyone who claims to value nature, intelligent beings in general, or freedom and independence. Conjuring planar beings and outsiders doesn't run into the same issue, as they don't actually die when 'killed' on the prime plane, and in a lot of worlds aren't even people with independent will.

[stoutstien]

I see three problems with this, one mechanical, one definitional, and one moral/ethical. The first is that awakened trees and most tough beasts are huge size - they just don't fit into a lot of dungeons. This limits how useful they are, as they won't be able to join the rest of the remote party, especially if the remote party is composed of familiars and elementals, who can fit into some tiny spaces. The second problem is that awaken creates fully intelligent NPCs not under the casters control. For me, they'd be like hirelings, and wouldn't really count as a remote controlled party. The final problem is that you're creating independent, intelligent beings and sending them off on adventures too dangerous for you personally under the influence of a charm spell. I think this poses a moral and ethical issue for anyone who claims to value nature, intelligent beings in general, or freedom and independence. Conjuring planar beings and outsiders doesn't run into the same issue, as they don't actually die when 'killed' on the prime plane, and in a lot of worlds aren't even people with independent will.

i was thinking more for loot hauling/ general labor for the awaken trees. target much smaller beasts for scouts. a squad of awaken bat could scout out a caves and be at minimal risk. assuming badgers leave tunnels behind when they burrow they can be used to make short cuts.
a lot more to clearing a dungeon than combat.

[Man_Over_Game]

Chainlock's familiar "speaks in your voice", so can be an easy get around to ordering around summons from a distance.

So Shepherd 6/Chainlock 3? After your two summon waves are dead, you and your buddies can go and clear up the mess.

Why stop there? Get 3 more levels into Warlock, and just start chucking summons at your enemies. I doubt they have as many Short Rest Resources as you do. You can afford to basically siege them all day. And Night, if you're a Warforged.

[stoutstien]

So far the best 5 man party I can come up with is Shepherd druid, pack of chain/ celestial warlock, divination wizard, a Glamour bard,and trickery domain cleric.

All the summon spells, tons of long term buffs, rotating THP sources to keep summons up, All the scyring spells, and healing for undead.

[noob]

Once you get to high level enough you can just do team bard and wizard and have each member make a simulacrum of whatever they want and make it explore the dungeon.

[Rukelnikov]

So far the best 5 man party I can come up with is Shepherd druid, pack of chain/ celestial warlock, deviation wizard, a Glamour bard,and trickery domain cleric.

All the summon spells, tons of long term buffs, rotating THP sources to keep summons up, All the scyring spells, and healing for undead.

That sounds like an interesting class to play :smallamused:

[stoutstien]

That sounds like an interesting class to play :smallamused:
Fixed my ablity to not type on a phone 😑