Help me compare and contrast these gish options:

[Klorox]

Hey all. I want to play a gish in an upcoming game. I recently had a thread about this, but the DM loosened the rules a bit.

I have my ideas, but I would love for you guys to help me analyze each character build.

The rules: standard array for ability scores, PHB races only.

My goals: as a gish, I want to be able to have a lot of fun in combat, supplemented with some magical tricks. I really want the spell misty step and hopefully shield.

The game will be starting at level 2, planning on going to around 15.

1) fighter 1/bladelock (fiend) X. Human or half elf.

2) hexblade. Human or half elf.

3) bladesinger. High elf.

4) paladin 6/sorcerer. Half elf. I’m not sure if I’d do paladin for 6 levels and then sorcerer, or pal 2/sorcerer 3, and go from there.

[nickl_2000]

So, it sounds to me that you are looking to be primarily a Fighter, who also has the ability to do some magic.

Personally, I would look at High Elf EK, with a 3 level dip into Blade Singer. That would net you with level 2 wizard rituals and misty step fairly early as you wanted. My progression would likely be

Level 1 Fighter 1 - Armor, weapons, Con saves
Level 2 Wizard 1 - Level 1 rituals, Shield, cantrips
Level 3 Wizard 2 - All the Bladesong goodies
Level 4 Fighter 2 - Action Surge
Level 5 Fighter 3 - More Cantrips and EK subclass
Level 6 Wizard 3 - Level 2 spells and rituals
Level 7+ Fighter EK

You can focus on Dex, Int, and Con and dump your other stats.

[Bloodcloud]

Define "fun in combat". High sustained damage? Big burst nova? Take hits all day? Mobile skirmisher?

Do you know what the other players are doing/how many there are?

Fighter/bladelock (fiend): quite functionnal and resilient. Few, big spells, mostly blasts. No shield, misty step is not ideal here.

Fun combo: if you have a cleric friend, Heavy armor master at level 1 will make you very though. Combine with armor of aghatys for long lasting thorn damage. Stack with warding bond to let minions kill themselves attacking you. Get sentinel at 5 so they are stuck with nothing but bad choices.

Hexblade: A strong choice. you do get shield and misty step, but eventually burning a 3rd lebvel spell slot on it will feel very wastefull. Not nearly as tanky as the fienlock/ftr, more of a glass cannon.

Fun combo: anyone helping you getting advantage will work well with the curse increased crit range for crit smite fishing. Few but real big booms.

Bladesinger: So, this is a full wizard. Casting should be your main shtick, with bladesinging a support/oh **** button. High AC, but real brittle. Handle with care.

Paladin/sorc: Mr Nova. Big booms, tanky, well rounded. If you want to live in the melee with the occasional teleport/shield, might be the better combo. Probably vengeance/dragon.
Fun combo: quickened hold person into crit smite. A bit quick to gas out though.
Don't forget compel duel, a fun spell when well used.

[Bloodcloud]

I'll throw in my personnal build, eldritch blast knight.

Lvl 1: Vhuman ftr1 (feat crossbow expert) (defense fighting style)
Lvl 2-6: Warlock (fiend) (Tome) Pick up eldritch blast with repelling and agonizing blast, grab booming blade and shillelagh. Grab warcaster for your ASI.
Lvl 7-12: fighter (eldritch knight). Max Charisma with the ASIs.
13-15: more warlock.

At level 5: you are Ftr 1 warlock 4. You are wearing heavy armor and shield with defense style, so sky high ac. On a kill you get 7 thp, which can keep you going quite well. You have two 2nd level spell slot wich recharge on a short rest with misty step and a bonus action healing. You cast eldritch blast in melee and at range as you want, and can use this to push enemies 20 ft away where you want. You have proficiency in concentration and advantage, so you can maintain hex no problem. Next level you get third level slots. Then you get action surge.

At level 11: you are warlock 5 ftr 6. Your cha is maxed now maxed, you got your third eldritch blast and action surge, which mean a push of up to 60 ft on a turn. Hex last for 8 hours, and you have stellar concentration and ac to keep it going all day. This combo quite well with action surge, for decent nova rounds of 6d10+30+6d6 if everything hits. You also got 3 1st level slot for shield/absorb element. If the enemy tries to leave your reach, you punish it with booming blade using your staff (ideally with shillelagh active, cast before combat). You are tank, can switch ranged attack/melee attack seemlessly, can push enemy around easy, oh and you have access to just about every rituals in the game if you wish.

Level 12 you get two level 2 spell slot and war magic, to stack a staff wack after those eldritch blast. Then you up warlock for 4th level slots and a short rest boost to saving throw/skill check.

[Man_Over_Game]

Fighter 1/bladelock (fiend) X: You like sustainability and AoE spellcasting. You have a small party and you like focusing on the small-fry.
Hexblade: You like dealing heavy, sustainable melee damage, and you have an ally who can protect you while you dish out tons of damage.
Bladesinger: You like casting Concentration spells, and you like being able to take care of yourself when badguys try to break it.
Paladin/sorcerer: You like dealing lots of burst damage and you like having versatility in melee combat.


That's it in a nutshell.

[Klorox]

So, it sounds to me that you are looking to be primarily a Fighter, who also has the ability to do some magic.

Personally, I would look at High Elf EK, with a 3 level dip into Blade Singer. That would net you with level 2 wizard rituals and misty step fairly early as you wanted. My progression would likely be

Level 1 Fighter 1 - Armor, weapons, Con saves
Level 2 Wizard 1 - Level 1 rituals, Shield, cantrips
Level 3 Wizard 2 - All the Bladesong goodies
Level 4 Fighter 2 - Action Surge
Level 5 Fighter 3 - More Cantrips and EK subclass
Level 6 Wizard 3 - Level 2 spells and rituals
Level 7+ Fighter EK

You can focus on Dex, Int, and Con and dump your other stats.
My biggest gripe with the bladesinger was I thought he was too fragile (assuming he gets hit). This totally fixes that, and with the bladesinger bonus to CON saves *and* being proficient in them, well, I really like this.

Two of three levels in rogue (AT) is pretty sweet too, but a different flavor.

EDIT: this is another completely different flavor, but what if we do EK/abjuration wizard 3? Does heavy armor outweigh (LOL) the bladesinger bonuses?

[Klorox]

Define "fun in combat". High sustained damage? Big burst nova? Take hits all day? Mobile skirmisher?

Do you know what the other players are doing/how many there are?

Fighter/bladelock (fiend): quite functionnal and resilient. Few, big spells, mostly blasts. No shield, misty step is not ideal here.

Fun combo: if you have a cleric friend, Heavy armor master at level 1 will make you very though. Combine with armor of aghatys for long lasting thorn damage. Stack with warding bond to let minions kill themselves attacking you. Get sentinel at 5 so they are stuck with nothing but bad choices.

Hexblade: A strong choice. you do get shield and misty step, but eventually burning a 3rd lebvel spell slot on it will feel very wastefull. Not nearly as tanky as the fienlock/ftr, more of a glass cannon.

Fun combo: anyone helping you getting advantage will work well with the curse increased crit range for crit smite fishing. Few but real big booms.

Bladesinger: So, this is a full wizard. Casting should be your main shtick, with bladesinging a support/oh **** button. High AC, but real brittle. Handle with care.

Paladin/sorc: Mr Nova. Big booms, tanky, well rounded. If you want to live in the melee with the occasional teleport/shield, might be the better combo. Probably vengeance/dragon.
Fun combo: quickened hold person into crit smite. A bit quick to gas out though.
Don't forget compel duel, a fun spell when well used.

Define fun. Hmmmm, I’m not sure what to say. I like to have a character that fills a niche, but at the same time doesn’t overshadow other players.

I think the fighter/bladelock looks cool because I’ve never really seen it played. It’s different from the tons of paladin/sorcerers that have crept up over the years (I’m sure).

As for the paladin/sorcerer, I think, if I were to choose it, I’d take all of my paladin levels first.

Who knows when a game will end, he may be a paladin the entire campaign.

I’m fond of all the oaths in the PHB. They’re all cool for different reasons, and I can think of good story, as well as mechanical reasons to go with any of them.

[Man_Over_Game]

My biggest gripe with the bladesinger was I thought he was too fragile (assuming he gets hit). This totally fixes that, and with the bladesinger bonus to CON saves *and* being proficient in them, well, I really like this.

Two of three levels in rogue (AT) is pretty sweet too, but a different flavor.

EDIT: this is another completely different flavor, but what if we do EK/abjuration wizard 3? Does heavy armor outweigh (LOL) the bladesinger bonuses?

Keep in mind: "Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. [...] "

Mage Armor is 13 AC. Fighter's Light Armor and Defense Fighting Style would also be 13 AC. You'd be spending a level to get the equivalent of a level 1 spell.

Besides the +4 HP of starting as a Fighter or Second Wind (which delays your early-game casting), there's nothing that being a Fighter would provide for defense.

Unless you're really gunning for some kind of Action Surge spell combo, I'd just recommend sticking with Bladesinger for all of your levels, picking up Tough when you can (as that effectively bumps your Hit Dice from 1d6 to a 1d10, same as a Fighter).

[Klorox]

I'll throw in my personnal build, eldritch blast knight.

Lvl 1: Vhuman ftr1 (feat crossbow expert) (defense fighting style)
Lvl 2-6: Warlock (fiend) (Tome) Pick up eldritch blast with repelling and agonizing blast, grab booming blade and shillelagh. Grab warcaster for your ASI.
Lvl 7-12: fighter (eldritch knight). Max Charisma with the ASIs.
13-15: more warlock.

At level 5: you are Ftr 1 warlock 4. You are wearing heavy armor and shield with defense style, so sky high ac. On a kill you get 7 thp, which can keep you going quite well. You have two 2nd level spell slot wich recharge on a short rest with misty step and a bonus action healing. You cast eldritch blast in melee and at range as you want, and can use this to push enemies 20 ft away where you want. You have proficiency in concentration and advantage, so you can maintain hex no problem. Next level you get third level slots. Then you get action surge.

At level 11: you are warlock 5 ftr 6. Your cha is maxed now maxed, you got your third eldritch blast and action surge, which mean a push of up to 60 ft on a turn. Hex last for 8 hours, and you have stellar concentration and ac to keep it going all day. This combo quite well with action surge, for decent nova rounds of 6d10+30+6d6 if everything hits. You also got 3 1st level slot for shield/absorb element. If the enemy tries to leave your reach, you punish it with booming blade using your staff (ideally with shillelagh active, cast before combat). You are tank, can switch ranged attack/melee attack seemlessly, can push enemy around easy, oh and you have access to just about every rituals in the game if you wish.

Level 12 you get two level 2 spell slot and war magic, to stack a staff wack after those eldritch blast. Then you up warlock for 4th level slots and a short rest boost to saving throw/skill check.

Wow. You’re making me completely rethink the fighter/warlock idea and making it primarily ranged.

Why shillelagh? With crossbow master aren’t you better off eldritch blasting people even if they’re in your face?

I’d be tempted to go chain-lock here for an awesome pet.

[Klorox]

Keep in mind: "Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. [...] "

Mage Armor is 13 AC. Fighter's Light Armor and Defense Fighting Style would also be 13 AC. You'd be spending a level to get the equivalent of a level 1 spell.

Besides the +4 HP of starting as a Fighter or Second Wind (which delays your early-game casting), there's nothing that being a Fighter would provide for defense.

Unless you're really gunning for some kind of Action Surge spell combo, I'd just recommend sticking with Bladesinger for all of your levels, picking up Tough when you can (as that effectively bumps your Hit Dice from 1d6 to a 1d10, same as a Fighter).

This is a compelling argument.

Hence my idea of subbing out bladesinger, making it a STR build, and using abjuror (or war magic, I’ve only heard of that school).

[Man_Over_Game]

This is a compelling argument.

Hence my idea of subbing out bladesinger, making it a STR build, and using abjuror (or war magic, I’ve only heard of that school).

War Mage is consistent, but a bit less specialized. It's best designed for someone who doesn't want to prepare Shield or Absorb Elements, but rather have one feature that covers both problems (but being a bit less effective than either). You put it on someone who only plans on being attacked 1-2 times per combat, not 1-2 times per round. It's also really good at dealing with mages.

An Arcane Trickster would be a good War Mage, but an Eldritch Knight would probably not.

The classic OP build is Eldritch Knight with Abjuration Wizard. Gain HP as you cast Shield and Absorb Elements, be better at countering mages, there's not much to hate and it's hard to go wrong with it.

[Rukelnikov]

This is a compelling argument.

Hence my idea of subbing out bladesinger, making it a STR build, and using abjuror (or war magic, I’ve only heard of that school).

If you want a Gish, don't main Bladesinger, by tier 3 you will be playing more like a Wizard than a Fighter.

I do think 2, 3 or 4 lvls of Bladesinger are a perfect addition for an EK.

[Bloodcloud]

Wow. You’re making me completely rethink the fighter/warlock idea and making it primarily ranged.

Why shillelagh? With crossbow master aren’t you better off eldritch blasting people even if they’re in your face?

I’d be tempted to go chain-lock here for an awesome pet.

Well, few reasons.
1. Capitalize on war magic. Starting lvl 12 (warlock 5 ek 7) you get a weapon attack as a bonus action after using eldritch blast. So you wack em with you staff. Shillelaghs allows you to use your charisma on that attack. With hex, thats 1d8+1d6+5
2. War caster allows you to use a cantrip on OA, but only with a single target spell. Eblast arguably doesn’t qualify, but booming blade does.