Rogue Gish and Face, Not AT

[TheHutz]

I’m thinking about making a rogue Gish, likely one with high charisma as I was originally leaning swashbuckler/warlock but I’m open to other ideas.

I rolled this array: 17 14 13 12 12 10

My initial thoughts were an Eladrin, allotting the stats as:

Str 10, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14

I picture this character as one would your typical swashbuckler, confident, flamboyant, always quick with a quip and well liked. A fey patron would obviously work well with an Eladrin.

I was thinking as a level spread 4 levels rogue, taking eleven accuracy to max dex. That got me thinking as to how I could achieve advantage. This lead me to warlock. Darkness/Devil Sight is a bit too cheesy for this character, I don’t want a character swathed in darkness, doesn’t really fit the theme. That next led me to consider pact of the chain, using a pixie to generate advantage, but using anything other than an owl for this seems like insta death for a familiar.

What other paths besides warlock would be good for an eleven accuracy swashbuckler? How can I generate advantage as a rogue? Fey patron offers faerie fire, and I guess I could just do pact of the tome and get find familiar for an owl (also a bit cheesy). I’m considering this more of a dip and likely going back to rogue the rest of the way. Sorcerer seems meh, not enough sorcery points with 2-3 levels. Perhaps one of the bard subclasses would work well? The main reason I don't love AT is the need to prioritize Int as your casting stat when I want this character to be more of a face.

Thanks for the help!

[nickl_2000]

What are your feelings on Swords Bard/ Swashbuckler? Those two would play really well into your concept and also play well together.

[Snowbluff]

I prefer sorc.

Shadowblade can give Advantage, and so will greater invis at higher levels. Having quicken for booming blade would be a really good option. Also, having Shield on your list natively is nice.

Finally, I think Dragon Sorc might be the best option so you can get some bonus AC and HP. After that, I would suggest grabbing the fifth level of rogue for uncanny dodge.

Of course, you can do the por que no los dos and grab 2-3 warlock levels for agonizing blast, which you can quicken after landing your one Sneak Attack for the turn.

[TheHutz]

What are your feelings on Swords Bard/ Swashbuckler? Those two would play really well into your concept and also play well together.

I've played a lore bard a bit but that's about it, is 3 levels for swords bard a good enough dip?

[TheHutz]

I prefer sorc.

Shadowblade can give Advantage, and so will greater invis at higher levels. Having quicken for booming blade would be a really good option. Also, having Shield on your list natively is nice.

Finally, I think Dragon Sorc might be the best option so you can get some bonus AC and HP. After that, I would suggest grabbing the fifth level of rogue for uncanny dodge.

Of course, you can do the por que no los dos and grab 2-3 warlock levels for agonizing blast, which you can quicken after landing your one Sneak Attack for the turn.

Wouldn't all of the things you're describing here require a good number of sorcerer levels? 5 for shadow blade and 7 for greater invis? I was leaning more towards the casting class as a dip.

[nickl_2000]

I've played a lore bard a bit but that's about it, is 3 levels for swords bard a good enough dip?

3 levels of Swords Bard nets you:
Level 2 spells
Bard Cantrips
Bardic Inspiration/Flourishes
a fighting style
Expertise
Jack of all Trades
Song of Rest


5 levels would allow you to recharge you bardic inspiration on a short rest instead of a long rest and would give you level 3 spells, but I don't think that this is necessary if it doesn't fit into your character concept.

[CTurbo]

Swashbuckler/Swords Bard all the way IMO


I have done a Swashbuckler with single level of Draconic Sorcerer for extra AC and Booming Blade, but that was mostly a Rogue. It was GREAT though.

For a true gish you'd want more casting levels and maybe even mostly caster levels so I think Swords Bard, or Valor to a lesser extent, would be the best way to go.

Bonus shout out to Swashbuckler/Stone Sorcerer though as it's built in reaction attack would be great for a Rogue getting extra sneak damage.

[TheHutz]

Any thoughts on a consistent way to generate advantage if I want to use Elven Accuracy?

[nickl_2000]

Any thoughts on a consistent way to generate advantage if I want to use Elven Accuracy?

1 levels in Bard will give you Faerie Fire, that's a really good way to get advantage.
3 levels in Bard will give you hold person and blindness/deafness, another really good way.

[Keravath]

I have a rogue/warlock built along these lines but they went AT for the extra spell utility.

The key is generating advantage every round if possible to land sneak attacks reliably.

-familiar using help action (works for owls with flyby but can also work for the invisible chainlock familiars - if the target can't see them they don't get op attacks - either AT for find familiar or Chainlock but that sacrifices the possibility of two attacks via bladelock)
-faerie fire (fae warlock spell)
-darkness+devils sight (works well if there are more than one warlock in the party)
-level 4 spells shadows of moil or greater invisibility for a fae warlock (obtained at warlock 7)
-the classic rogue bonus action hide (works for ranged builds)
-if you want a melee build look into the shadow blade spell and try to fight in dim light or darkness
-At level 13 the AT rogue can use the mage hand to generate advantage

-bladelock works well with this early on since you can get devils sight/improved pact weapon and thirsting blade at level 5 giving two chances to land sneak attack and a magic weapon if you don't have one already.
-Charisma isn't high enough on the build to reliably land attack spells at higher levels.

[Snowbluff]

Wouldn't all of the things you're describing here require a good number of sorcerer levels? 5 for shadow blade and 7 for greater invis? I was leaning more towards the casting class as a dip.

3 for shadow blade. :smallannoyed:
Shadowblade isn't dependent your enemy's vision or stats but rather your environment. Devil's Sight + Darkness will fail immediately against anything that isn't a mook, but is good against mooks. Same goes for Faerie Fire and Blindness, but with those your team might be able to widdle away legendary resistance to make them work.

Also that's where you can get quicken at 3 as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

I’m thinking about making a rogue Gish, likely one with high charisma as I was originally leaning swashbuckler/warlock but I’m open to other ideas.

I rolled this array: 17 14 13 12 12 10

My initial thoughts were an Eladrin, allotting the stats as:

Str 10, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14

I picture this character as one would your typical swashbuckler, confident, flamboyant, always quick with a quip and well liked. A fey patron would obviously work well with an Eladrin.

I was thinking as a level spread 4 levels rogue, taking eleven accuracy to max dex. That got me thinking as to how I could achieve advantage. This lead me to warlock. Darkness/Devil Sight is a bit too cheesy for this character, I don’t want a character swathed in darkness, doesn’t really fit the theme. That next led me to consider pact of the chain, using a pixie to generate advantage, but using anything other than an owl for this seems like insta death for a familiar.

What other paths besides warlock would be good for an eleven accuracy swashbuckler? How can I generate advantage as a rogue? Fey patron offers faerie fire, and I guess I could just do pact of the tome and get find familiar for an owl (also a bit cheesy). I’m considering this more of a dip and likely going back to rogue the rest of the way. Sorcerer seems meh, not enough sorcery points with 2-3 levels. Perhaps one of the bard subclasses would work well? The main reason I don't love AT is the need to prioritize Int as your casting stat when I want this character to be more of a face.

Thanks for the help! Our party has a rogue Swashbuckler who MC'd a little into Warlock. She is very effective.

[Ventruenox]

Archfey Patron might be your best option. You get Faerie Fire on a short rest recharge, And the Fey Presence to charm/frighten all in a 10' radius once per short/long rest will help with the party face role. Less than 5 levels in Bard burns through resources very quickly, but convincing your party for a short rest is an easier sell.

As others mentioned, Shadow Blade, Hold Person, and Faerie Fire will grant you melee advantage and are all available to the Archfey Warlock. Also consider exploiting the Mask of Many Faces/Friends cantrip combo. It won't generate advantage for combat, but it will in social encounters and can possibly get you surprise rounds.

Don't underestimate the utility value of Tome Pact, either. It's more than a way to get Find Familiar. Guidance will make so many ability checks better, combined with Expertise at higher levels, watch your DM's face when you reply "32" on that roll. Take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation and collect rituals. Need to RP a religious figure to some NPCs? Ceremony. Secure your campsite overnight? Alarm. Is this item cursed? Identify. Can't read ancient inscription? Comprehend Language.

While Find Familiar for advantage is cheesy, as long as you don't use it all the time, most tables are good with that tactic.

[Crgaston]

There's been lots of good ideas proffered so far. Here's my take. You mentioned just wanting "a dip." How many levels you want has an impact on the value of each class under consideration.

Half-elf is of course the superior choice. With your rolls you can start with 12/18/14/10/12/16

For a 1 level dip, Dragon Sorcerer offers the most. 4 cantrips (Message, Mage Hand, and a couple more utility), 2 spells (I like Feather Fall and Jump on a Swashbuckler, but there are a LOT of possibilities) plus the equivalent of +1 Studded leather.

For 2 levels, Warlock for the Invocations is excellent. Picking 2 of the "at-will" Invocations (Mage Armor, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Detect Magic, etc.) really lets you get some magical flavor without hitting your Rogue levels too hard.

For 3 levels, all of them are good. I won't delineate the benefits because it's been done well by previous posters.

I will say that, given your interest in Feylock, you should take a hard look at Glamor Bard. Their 3rd level abilities are absolutely amazing. Swords would be better for your DPR, but no other class feature I'm aware of breaks the action economy as hard as Mantle of Inspiration. You can use your Bonus Action to give your allies 5 THP, and a the equivalent of a free Disengage AND a free Dash ON YOUR TURN.

Are your teammates surrounded and injured? Not anymore. And you can still drop a Shatter on the bad guys this round. Or cast a Hold Person on the BBEG and let all your allies surround him right now.

Plus the Face capabilities are huge.

[Nhorianscum]

I’m thinking about making a rogue Gish, likely one with high charisma as I was originally leaning swashbuckler/warlock but I’m open to other ideas.

I rolled this array: 17 14 13 12 12 10

My initial thoughts were an Eladrin, allotting the stats as:

Str 10, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14

I picture this character as one would your typical swashbuckler, confident, flamboyant, always quick with a quip and well liked. A fey patron would obviously work well with an Eladrin.

I was thinking as a level spread 4 levels rogue, taking eleven accuracy to max dex. That got me thinking as to how I could achieve advantage. This lead me to warlock. Darkness/Devil Sight is a bit too cheesy for this character, I don’t want a character swathed in darkness, doesn’t really fit the theme. That next led me to consider pact of the chain, using a pixie to generate advantage, but using anything other than an owl for this seems like insta death for a familiar.

What other paths besides warlock would be good for an eleven accuracy swashbuckler? How can I generate advantage as a rogue? Fey patron offers faerie fire, and I guess I could just do pact of the tome and get find familiar for an owl (also a bit cheesy). I’m considering this more of a dip and likely going back to rogue the rest of the way. Sorcerer seems meh, not enough sorcery points with 2-3 levels. Perhaps one of the bard subclasses would work well? The main reason I don't love AT is the need to prioritize Int as your casting stat when I want this character to be more of a face.

Thanks for the help!

AT doesn't need int normally. On a full caster multi not wizard AT dumps int.

That said...

Assasin13/Sorc 7

If WGTE is on the table Mark of Shadow or changling otherwise half elf.

Impersonations R'us.

[Skylivedk]

Or go vengeance Dex Paladin (3) + swashbuckler (11) + swords bard (6). You get advantage when you want it, hit like a truck and can smite on top of that when you crit. With two attacks, you can use a shield and be extremely tanky to boot. You say screw Shield because you want sentinel and have uncanny dodge. This build is quite the count of Monte Cristo.