Lore Bard VS Life Theurge

[jaappleton]

What's better for a support caster, that might occasionally have to blow things up?

[CheddarChampion]

Life Theurge meaning Life Domain Cleric?

The best of both worlds is a Lore Bard with one level in Life Cleric but I take it you want a single class for thematic consistency.

I say Lore Bard is much better at general support with their spell lists and bardic inspiration and can be better with blasting because of magical secrets.
Life Cleric has better healing and tanking ability.

If your personal survivability is a concern then Life Cleric is better but if you think you'll be well protected then Lore Bard will provide ample support.

Examples of Bard spells/abilities that a Life Cleric can't replicate (as well):
Bardic Inspiration
Faerie Fire
Invisibility/Greater Invisibility
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Catnap
Mind Blank
Foresight

[jaappleton]

Life Theurge meaning Life Domain Cleric?

The best of both worlds is a Lore Bard with one level in Life Cleric but I take it you want a single class for thematic consistency.

I say Lore Bard is much better at general support with their spell lists and bardic inspiration and can be better with blasting because of magical secrets.
Life Cleric has better healing and tanking ability.

If your personal survivability is a concern then Life Cleric is better but if you think you'll be well protected then Lore Bard will provide ample support.

Examples of Bard spells/abilities that a Life Cleric can't replicate (as well):
Bardic Inspiration
Faerie Fire
Invisibility/Greater Invisibility
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Catnap
Mind Blank
Foresight

Life Theurge was in the Unearthed Arcana wizard subclass, Theurge, where you are a Wizard but gain the Cleric Domain spells and the Domain features, tacked on to the Wizard class.

[Rukelnikov]

Life Theurge was in the Unearthed Arcana wizard subclass, Theurge, where you are a Wizard but gain the Cleric Domain spells and the Domain features, tacked on to the Wizard class.

Life Theurge, pretty much without a doubt.

By the time the Lore Bard gets access to its second serving of Magical Secrets, the Life Theurge has full acess to Wizards and Clerics spell lists. Furthermore, cleric spells count as wizard for you, so you get access to all wizard and cleric rituals "for free" (you gotta pay to copy them into your spellbook, but its a steal). Lore Bard needs to spend a feat to get rituals.

[jaappleton]

Life Theurge, pretty much without a doubt.

By the time the Lore Bard gets access to its second serving of Magical Secrets, the Life Theurge has full acess to Wizards and Clerics spell lists. Furthermore, cleric spells count as wizard for you, so you get access to all wizard and cleric rituals "for free" (you gotta pay to copy them into your spellbook, but its a steal). Lore Bard needs to spend a feat to get rituals.

Barda get ritual casting. I’m assuming you mean they couldn’t cast any Cleric spells at Rituals?

[Rukelnikov]

Barda get ritual casting. I’m assuming you mean they couldn’t cast any Cleric spells at Rituals?

I meant to get full class list rituals. They can only cast rituals for spells they know, and with how precious spell known slots are, you generally can't have the luxury of picking rituals to "have them around just in case".

[Max_Killjoy]

I meant to get full class list rituals. They can only cast rituals for spells they know, and with how precious spell known slots are, you generally can't have the luxury of picking rituals to "have them around just in case".


As an aside, I'm poking at creating a Class that doesn't have as many spell slots as full casters (or maybe spell points as its default system), but can use magic items without class, race, etc restrictions and can copy ritual-tagged spells (regardless of class list) into a book and then only cast those spells as rituals -- based on the idea of being a magic theorist and analyst.

[Rukelnikov]

As an aside, I'm poking at creating a Class that doesn't have as many spell slots as full casters (or maybe spell points as its default system), but can use magic items without class, race, etc restrictions and can copy ritual-tagged spells (regardless of class list) into a book and then only cast those spells as rituals -- based on the idea of being a magic theorist and analyst.

If you allowed Thief's Use Magic Device as a high level Invocation a Tomelock is pretty much what you are describing. Otherwise you can make a Lock Patron that grants UMD.

[Max_Killjoy]

If you allowed Thief's Use Magic Device as a high level Invocation a Tomelock is pretty much what you are describing. Otherwise you can make a Lock Patron that grants UMD.

Would like it to be not-a-lock, given that some players and DMs take the "you have a Patron, you made a deal" thing VERY seriously.

[Rukelnikov]

Would like it to be not-a-lock, given that some players and DMs take the "you have a Patron, you made a deal" thing VERY seriously.

Ok, was just pointing it out since your description sounded similar to it.

[Max_Killjoy]

Ok, was just pointing it out since your description sounded similar to it.

:smallsmile:

Let's see, back to the actual topic (sorry OP).

For those who haven't seen Theurgy from UA -- https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf


I'd say that the choice is close enough that it's more how you want to do it than which is outright better.

[Nhorianscum]

What's better for a support caster, that might occasionally have to blow things up?

Theruge with 2 levels of cleric is full blown cheese.

[8wGremlin]

Have a look at divine soul sorcerer.
Look at twinning some of the concentration spells on both the sorcerer and cleric spells.

Take 1 level in hexblade warlock for armour, shields, cha for 1h weapons curse and Eldritch Blast.

[Trustypeaches]

I just love how Theurgy wizards get the Cleric Domain’s 17th Level feature at level 14.

What a design mess.

[jaappleton]

I just love how Theurgy wizards get the Cleric Domain’s 17th Level feature at level 14.

What a design mess.

I agree, its a massive slap in the face to Clerics.

However, my games have never gone past level 12. So I'm not concerned about capstone abilities for what I'm trying to do.