Could a lich make the planet into their phylactery?

[Particle_Man]

Would that mean the planet would have to be destroyed to kill the lich for good?

[Malphegor]

I feel that goes into an epic, spelljammer spacefaring lich level, since in the srd it limits phylacteries to be similar to an amulet or small object of value


The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.

The question is- is the planet similar to these things? Nah.

So now that RAW is out of the way, let’s look at rule of cool:

sure, why not?

The lich’s phylactery is the world now. Their soul can reform anywhere in the world. It’s exposed to EVERYONE, but nobody necessarily wants to destroy it, lest they lose their world. You have a mutually assured destruction scenario...

But now you’ve got a problem because your soul is exposed to all the people who live on it. So many people will notice. So many people will try to remove the lich’s presence. They might not succeed, but so long as civilisation exists, it might try.

Then you get the question as to why this hasn’t been done before- what happened to the last lich who spread themselves so thin across an entire world?

But it is awesome. Run with it. Have the planet become like Ego the Living Planet, with the lich’s face forming on it. Maybe have a cosmic lich form where their body IS the planet they phylacteried!

[Jay R]

It's sufficiently different from anything envisioned in the rules that the DM would have to make a judgment call on whether that would improve the game somehow.

No NPC would try it in my game, because I don't see how it makes the game any more interesting or immersive.

If a PC managed to become a lich, and then suggested it, I would tell him some version of, "You've never heard of such a thing, and don't know how or if it could be done. That's a risky thing to try to do with your soul." Assuming he tried divination spells, he'd learn about whichever of the following difficulties:

There are several potential problems:

1. Is it a planet? My most recent D&D world was the unmoving center of the universe, being orbited by all the planets -- the moon, Mercury, Venus, the sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, as described in Ptolemy.

2. Does it already contain a soul? In Greek mythology, the earth is Gaea. In many others, it is some sort of Earth Mother.

3. Is the planet a single object? If so, does it take hp damage every time somebody mines ore, or digs a hole? Remember that to destroy a phylactery, you don't have to vaporize it; just deal enough damage.

4. What's the range of Craft Wondrous Item? I suspect that even if it were possible, the real phylactery would be just that part of the earth within 20 or 50 feet of the lich's workshop. If the lich tried to make a tree his phylactery, I'd probably make him go up and down it in the process, so that his magic actually reached every part of the tree.

5. How does it help the game to make the PCs (or their enemy, if the lich is a PC) want to destroy the planet?

In short, there is no clear rule justifying it, there's lots of good story and mechanical reasons not to allow it, and its primary purpose seems to be to break the game by taking away the only weakness of an extremely powerful creature. I'd probably rule that a phylactery has to be a manufactured item, or has a size limit, or some such.

[inuyasha]

Going back to the small object thing, from memory there is one notable exception to the "little piece of jewelry, bone, gem, or coin" thing, and that would be... marked as a spoiler for anyone in a Ravenloft game

The phylactery of Azalin Rex from Ravenloft. if I remember correctly, his phylactery is the tremendous skull of a Gold Dragon kept in his keep.

And even that's nowhere near the size of the planet.

[The Kool]

Ultimately, I think the answer depends on the scope of the game, and the scope of the plot that the phylactery is the center of. In a traditional D&D game with a player asking, the answer should be no way, hands down. In a spacefaring or plane-traveling game, it could work. Wiping out one world and dealing with the logistics and fallout of it could be the center of a whole campaign... or if your scale is big enough, blowing up a small planet doesn't really mean anything at all in the grand scheme of things.

[noob]

It is simple: dig a hole that goes from one side of the planet to the other.
now the planet is a ring.
so it can be a phylactery now.

[MisterKaws]

It is simple: dig a hole that goes from one side of the planet to the other.
now the planet is a ring.
so it can be a phylactery now.

I'm pretty sure at some point you start taking damage from lava and being buried.

So get a lot of healing ready, I guess.

[remetagross]

On the other hand, the ring-planet idea to get RAW-compliant is even more hilarious than the phylactery planet idea in the first place :smallbiggrin:

[Falontani]

Maybe it *is* a phylactery, and every lich reforms somewhere inside the planet, and is either Imprisoned as the spell, or perhaps destroyed again, reforms, and destroyed, continuously for eons until the specific area no longer crushes the lich with sheer pressure. It would drive even them insane. Eons of dying repeatedly with no corporeal form lasting long enough to even get the beginnings of the fastest escape spell out. The dread that it will all happen again, and again, forever. All because they were the cocky mage that thought this was the safest plan.

[Âmesang]

He's not a lich, but that's kind of what Morgoth did in The Silmarillion.

"Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring."

EDIT: Come to think of it, this reminds me of wanting to use a trapped Phaethon as the "core" of a world, so now I'm imagining a (demi/arch)lich doing just this in order to ensure that the Phaethon remains trapped…

[Oberron]

It is simple: dig a hole that goes from one side of the planet to the other.
now the planet is a ring.
so it can be a phylactery now.

Why even go that far? Strap a pearl neck in partway into the dirt, bam, the planet is now a necklace, with a planet for a jewel.

[Lapak]

It is simple: dig a hole that goes from one side of the planet to the other.
now the planet is a ring.
so it can be a phylactery now.

Joke's gonna be on you when your Prime Material turns out to be a flat plane and you fall through the bottom of existence!

[flappeercraft]

At that point couldn't someone just disjoin the phylactery and youre screwed? They don't even have to look for it because they are literally standing on top of it. Good luck protecting from that.

[Oberron]

At that point couldn't someone just disjoin the phylactery and youre screwed? They don't even have to look for it because they are literally standing on top of it. Good luck protecting from that.

if you mean disjunction the item would get a saving throw of either 2 + 1/2 CL or the lich's will save depending on how someone would rule if the planet was in the lich's possession or not just by standing on it or by having a detatched hand "wearing" the earth ring or a creature with a high will save wearing the necklace just laying on the ground or something.

[flappeercraft]

if you mean disjunction the item would get a saving throw of either 2 + 1/2 CL or the lich's will save depending on how someone would rule if the planet was in the lich's possession or not just by standing on it or by having a detatched hand "wearing" the earth ring or a creature with a high will save wearing the necklace just laying on the ground or something.

Disjoin is the term used for when something is destroyed by Disjunction, not a mixup in terminology actually. Also on the other part, any natural 1 means it immediately disjoined regardless of the bonus to the roll so even if it takes you a week until they get a natural 1 its still a rather easy thing to do.

[Oberron]

Disjoin is the term used for when something is destroyed by Disjunction, not a mixup in terminology actually. Also on the other part, any natural 1 means it immediately disjoined regardless of the bonus to the roll so even if it takes you a week until they get a natural 1 its still a rather easy thing to do.

i wasn't sure if you where talking about disjunction, thus the statement, I wasn't trying to correct you actually. A natural 1 sure, but there are ways to get re-rolls to make it a lot harder and if the creature had immunity to making will saves would make the item a lot harder to use disjuntion on. Not to mention the lich wouldn't just sit around letting people keep casting disjunction unless the lich made it immune somehow.

[Pex]

I feel that goes into an epic, spelljammer spacefaring lich level, since in the srd it limits phylacteries to be similar to an amulet or small object of value



The question is- is the planet similar to these things? Nah.

So now that RAW is out of the way, let’s look at rule of cool:

sure, why not?

The lich’s phylactery is the world now. Their soul can reform anywhere in the world. It’s exposed to EVERYONE, but nobody necessarily wants to destroy it, lest they lose their world. You have a mutually assured destruction scenario...

But now you’ve got a problem because your soul is exposed to all the people who live on it. So many people will notice. So many people will try to remove the lich’s presence. They might not succeed, but so long as civilisation exists, it might try.

Then you get the question as to why this hasn’t been done before- what happened to the last lich who spread themselves so thin across an entire world?

But it is awesome. Run with it. Have the planet become like Ego the Living Planet, with the lich’s face forming on it. Maybe have a cosmic lich form where their body IS the planet they phylacteried!

Other liches have done it. The people do notice them and are affected. The people call them "gods".

[Malphegor]

Other liches have done it. The people do notice them and are affected. The people call them "gods".

I... wait.

You want a group of loyal followers who take down those who dare threaten the 'sanctity of the world' blah blah blah.

Who have powers over undead, either turning or rebuking granted by their 'god'.

Their god seldom directly appears, but in some rare instances they do have physical manifestations and avatars who live and die for a bit when things are dire.



Okay, cool, so it turns out that a lich could easily be the same thing as a god, and spends most of their time reforming whilst their followers use its power. CoughcoughIsthishowVecnaworkscoughcough.

Ooh, that's given me an idea for clerics that leech off (maybe their order was once Ur-priests who sought to take down this johnny comelately deity but later on considered themselves clerics of a sort) the lichgod's power because otherwise their god might gain the strength to reform and materialise in the world.

[ShurikVch]

Savage Tide adventure path, Wells of Darkness chapter (Dungeon #148), have some Varrangoin Arcanists who're attained lichdom by making their "phylactery" the Wells of Darkness - #73 layer of the Abyss

I bet destroying a layer of the Abyss is much more difficult than any planet!

[Jay R]

The question for the DM remains:

Would allowing this help make the game work, or start to break it?

I would disallow it, because I see how it hurts the game and can't see how it helps the game.

[noob]

The question for the DM remains:

Would allowing this help make the game work, or start to break it?

I would disallow it, because I see how it hurts the game and can't see how it helps the game.

How are unkillable liches harming more the game than ghosts?(which are utterly unkillable provided they are high level enough)

[Particle_Man]

Turning it around, the Lich could create microscopically tiny sentient life on their phylactery, creating a potential ethical dilemma for pcs that know about the millions of innocent beings living on that phylactery.

[Jay R]

How are unkillable liches harming more the game than ghosts?(which are utterly unkillable provided they are high level enough)

It depends on a great many things.

Unkillable PCs break the game.

BBEGs that the PCs must destroy the world to defeat, if the PCs have the ability to destroy the world, will break the game.

An unkillable lich who doesn't need to be defeated, and isn't an irresistible temptation to the players, won't break the game.

The DM would have to make a judgment call. But I don't see any way in which this helps the game. Therefore none of my NPCs would do it, and the PCs won't be able to do it.

[Bphill561]

I guess you could have the lich make a poison ring into his phylactery. There is nothing stopping him from adding more enchantments, so adding sizing to his poison ring phylactery would make it as large as Colossal by RAW. Not big enough.

An epic spell using the transformation seed might work. You could turn a large asteroid into a non-magical piece of jewelry. Enchant it breaking the non-magical item target rule for the epic spell and have it revert back to an asteroid or other large body. I am a little rusty on epic spells, so maybe I am missing a volume modifier there somewhere. Make sure you master craft your asteroid first...

Epic destinies has the artifact lord which at level 24 has Disjunction ward. If you can get away with standing on as being on your body, you could ward off disjunction.

Similarly there was an epic spell someplace that let you split you phylactery into multiple pieces, so you could have others not as big tucked away.

Regardless I don't think game balance was what the author was looking for.