Is Metamagic worth losing Wish?

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Hey there! I'm in a situation where I'm playing a storm sorcerer 1/glamour bard 7. I picked up sorcerer for the extra cantrips, bonus action disengage + move on spell use (it fit my flavor), and the possibility of metamagic later. The problem, though, is that going Sorcerer 3/Bard 17 loses the level 18 magical secrets. Hence my question.

Is grabbing metamagic worth losing the last magical secrets? Also, when would it be worthwhile to get the last 2 sorcerer levels in my situation? If I get it too late, would that change the worth of it?

[TheUser]

Hey there! I'm in a situation where I'm playing a storm sorcerer 1/glamour bard 7. I picked up sorcerer for the extra cantrips, bonus action disengage + move on spell use (it fit my flavor), and the possibility of metamagic later. The problem, though, is that going Sorcerer 3/Bard 17 loses the level 18 magical secrets. Hence my question.

Is grabbing metamagic worth losing the last magical secrets? Also, when would it be worthwhile to get the last 2 sorcerer levels in my situation? If I get it too late, would that change the worth of it?

What do you have with your level 14 magical secrets?
If it's also costing you Clone, Simulacrum and other long term spells it's even more detrimental. Whereas if you've already picked up some of the hot ticket wizard spells wish would allow you it's not such a big deal.

[sophontteks]

Most games don't last long enough for this to even come up. Are you sure this campaign is different?

[dragoeniex]

You should look at whether your campaign is likely to go that far, how long it might take (DM planning on time-jumping levels vs regular progression), whether you might continue after lv 20, etc. Unless you're very likely to go that high and play more than a couple sessions at peak power, go with what's punchy and satisfying now.

Wish is great. What isn't great is spending 12 levels feeling anxious over whether you'll get to use it if you resist the other shiny things you want for 98% of the campaign.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Most games I play in, the DM's expectation is to get to 20, but I never count on it.

Whether or not to multiclass Sorc 3/Bard 17 seems to be some convoluted formula that depends on likeliness of getting to 20, how long we'll play at 20, how detrimental losing Bard progression is, how useful metamagic will be, and probably how much impact on my playstyle it'll have. I'm trying to parse that formula a bit.

Most of what I've read seems to indicate I should try to grab magical secrets before continuing the multiclass, which would mean I'd be using metamagic from level 13+. Grabbing it now would let me use it from level 10+, but would put off Bard progression. If it matters, I have an Instrument of the Bards, so was considering grabbing Careful Spell to throw out risk free Hypnotic Patterns with disadvantage to enemies and autosaves to allies. The other one would either be subtle spell or heightened spell.

[sophontteks]

Most games I play in, the DM's expectation is to get to 20, but I never count on it.

Whether or not to multiclass Sorc 3/Bard 17 seems to be some convoluted formula that depends on likeliness of getting to 20, how long we'll play at 20, how detrimental losing Bard progression is, how useful metamagic will be, and probably how much impact on my playstyle it'll have. I'm trying to parse that formula a bit.

Most of what I've read seems to indicate I should try to grab magical secrets before continuing the multiclass, which would mean I'd be using metamagic from level 13+. Grabbing it now would let me use it from level 10+, but would put off Bard progression. If it matters, I have an Instrument of the Bards, so was considering grabbing Careful Spell to throw out risk free Hypnotic Patterns with disadvantage to enemies and autosaves to allies. The other one would either be subtle spell or heightened spell.
No, this is not worth it. You are a glamour bard! Just use your glamorous appearance before you cast and all your teammates are free to move out of the AOE. Careful spell is no good to you.

The only metamagic I'd consider worthwhile for a bard is subtle spell, so you can cast bardic charms in plain sight.

[Nhorianscum]

You're a bard. If you wanted a spell below 9th level at the point you can secrets for wish you probably have that spell.

This isn't to day wish isn't still THE best spell in the game, just that metamagic is probably better over the ohgodwhy amount of time you'll spend between now and wish than wish will be for the 5 seconds you have it before "woops, a PC got wish, guess the games over now"

[Yuroch Kern]

Hmmm, personally, I'm about concept over stats. Wish is powerful, and you can also lose it forever. Whereas a Bard with Metamagic sounds more up your alley. Especially as previous posters point out, you still gotta get to 20th. The campaign is usually over by then.

[Torpin]

i'd take the metamagic and use foresight for my ninth level spell every day

[darknite]

I've found Wish to be useful for ignoring component costs of lower level spells and accessing spells from any spell list. So from a RP/Support perspective it's very cool but I don't think I've ever cast it in combat. Beyond that Shapechange or Foresight are a bunch more useful.

[Pex]

There's a reason a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Worry about what you'll enjoy playing now and the immediate future than what you could possibly maybe do a long while from now if you're fortunate. Be mindful you don't make a character that eventually becomes problematic to play of course, but be sure you enjoy the journey of the levels you're playing while reaching your ultimate goal of your last level played for a game session or two.

[Keravath]

Magical secrets at 14th level give access to 7th level spells including simulacrum.

Magical secrets at 18th level gives access to 8th and 9th level spells including the iconic Wish. The standard use of Wish is for ANY other spell of 8th level or less. This is from any class or spell list. This is a 1/day, remarkably flexible tool.

Beyond wish, 18th level magical secrets can give you other 8th and 9th level options that might be useful depending on your character. You'd need to look at your spell list.

Having these options might increase your character capability for levels 19-20.

The trade off is to get 3 sorcery points and a bit of metamagic earlier. Subtle can be fun, Careful can have some application however as noted, your glamour bard ability can be used to move team mates out of the AoE before casting. Heightened is single target but can be situationally useful. Twin isn't really an option since it costs sorcery points based on spell level. Quicken could also be useful but could only be used 1/combat unless you use a bonus action to put some points into your sorcery pool.

I think it comes down to a role playing decision. Which fits the character better? Which will you have more fun with? Do you mind giving up the spell flexibility at the highest levels and being able to cast wish?

[Yunru]

I'd like to point out that Wish is a 9th level spell, and there is a Boon that grants a 9th level slot.
So are you really missing out on Wish, or just delaying it until you get said Boon?

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'd like to point out that Wish is a 9th level spell, and there is a Boon that grants a 9th level slot.
So are you really missing out on Wish, or just delaying it until you get said Boon?

Just for clarity and curiosity (since I've never played tier 4, and probably never will), does it grant a 9th level slot? Or a 9th level spell?

[Yunru]

Just for clarity and curiosity (since I've never played tier 4, and probably never will), does it grant a 9th level slot? Or a 9th level spell?

I'll just double check.

EDIT: It grants you a spell slot, which nicely gets past that annoying "you prepare spells as if you were single classed" limitation.
Not quite sure how you'd come to know the spell though.