Ranger/Barb/Fighter help

[GuestEleven]

So I am still pretty new to 5e and I was hoping someone more experienced could help me out. I am working on a character, he is a Summer Eladrin and I started Fighter but I'm also looking to pick up Ranger and Barbarian. I had a lot of mixed visions for this character, and ultimately I came to a mix of Fighter4/Barb13/Ranger3. I'm not sure if I'm shooting myself in the foot or not.

I went to Fighter 4 so I could have Champion for Improved Critical, Greatweapon Style, and stick with it to 4 for a feat.

I'm wanting to take Barbarian because Summer Eladrin are prone to rage and having that show in a class mechanic is priceless, and also my character is somewhat primal. I really like the Elk Totem because I like to go fast.https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/meme/images/4/42/1385136139955.png/revision/latest?cb=20150207013804 I really don't like the 14th level Elk feature, Wolf feels nonsensically cheesy to me, and the others don't really fit my character vision. Originally I was going to do 14 in Barb, but dropped 1 level in favor of 1 more level in Ranger. Outside of that I really liked getting 2 dice for Brutal Critical at 13.

And I take 3 levels in Ranger for Archery style, Favored Terrain/Enemy, and I pick up 3rd for Colossus Slayer.

I think this character will still be good, but does anyone have a better suggestion for me? If any of you would like you can view my character here: http://ddb.ac/characters/10785405/fxiTh3 (Don't mind the stats, the DM went crazy and told the players to roll 6d6 for stats and reroll 1s. Everyone has some wild stats.)

[Malbrack]

So I am still pretty new to 5e and I was hoping someone more experienced could help me out. I am working on a character, he is a Summer Eladrin and I started Fighter but I'm also looking to pick up Ranger and Barbarian. I had a lot of mixed visions for this character, and ultimately I came to a mix of Fighter4/Barb13/Ranger3. I'm not sure if I'm shooting myself in the foot or not.

Ranger 3 seems like a waste compared to what you are giving up from Fighter and Barbarian. I would go 11 Fighter / 9 Barbarian. The big thing is to stay Fighter until at least level 5. Extra Attack is a game changer.

[GuestEleven]

Ranger 3 seems like a waste compared to what you are giving up from Fighter and Barbarian. I would go 11 Fighter / 9 Barbarian. The big thing is to stay Fighter until at least level 5. Extra Attack is a game changer.

You get Extra attack from Barb too. Only thing is that it doesn't stack with other sources. I wanted Ranger early so I could get archery, I am mixing bow and great sword attacks. Also it added to my character's theme, since he is being trained currently in game as a ranger. I feel it is more of a waste to commit a lot of levels in ranger though, once again fighter seems to be the superior archer. At least by what little I see.

[Malbrack]

You get Extra attack from Barb too. Only thing is that it doesn't stack with other sources. I wanted Ranger early so I could get archery, I am mixing bow and great sword attacks. Also it added to my character's theme, since he is being trained currently in game as a ranger. I feel it is more of a waste to commit a lot of levels in ranger though, once again fighter seems to be the superior archer. At least by what little I see.

It depends if you are starting at level 1 or not. If you're starting at level 9 or higher, then, sure, 4 Fighter is fine. But if you have to wait until level 9 (4 Fighter / 5 Barbarian) to get Extra Attack, you're going to be disappointed for 4 levels.

[Man_Over_Game]

The bow won't benefit from Strength, and the Great Sword won't benefit from Dexterity. You're mix-matching your stats a bit and it'll mean your character is poor at one or the other, or both.

My recommendation is to focus on Dexterity OR Strength, not both. Two-Weapon Fighting is a great way to deal decent melee damage with Dexterity, and you can still afford to use long-range weapons.

Javelins and throwing axes are a great way to use Strength on ranged attacks.

For a Strength-build, I'd ditch Archery for Dueling, as the damage bonus is applied on thrown weapons.

While the Fighter is more consistent, the Ranger is very versatile and adaptable. I would not combine Barbarian with Ranger levels, though, as the Ranger's big gimmick is enhancing his attacks with spells, which are incompatible with the Barbarian's Rage.

[Malbrack]

It is also worth pointing out that Champion Fighter 10 gets an additional fighting style, so you wouldn't have to take 2 Ranger for it. And Fighter 11 gives you 3 attacks. You'd have the same flexibility in your build while doing a lot more damage and without having to worry about rage locking you out of Ranger spells.

[GuestEleven]

It depends if you are starting at level 1 or not. If you're starting at level 9 or higher, then, sure, 4 Fighter is fine. But if you have to wait until level 9 (4 Fighter / 5 Barbarian) to get Extra Attack, you're going to be disappointed for 4 levels.

It is also worth pointing out that Champion Fighter 10 gets an additional fighting style, so you wouldn't have to take 2 Ranger for it. And Fighter 11 gives you 3 attacks. You'd have the same flexibility in your build while doing a lot more damage and without having to worry about rage locking you out of Ranger spells.

I have started level 1, gained three levels last session so I was considering 2 ranger 1 barb. Thing is that I thought Archery would be nice earlier on, if I wait until level 10 minimum before I ever see it I feel like I'll have potentially outgrown the need for it, while it could help earlier in the game a lot more, if that makes any sense?


The bow won't benefit from Strength, and the Great Sword won't benefit from Dexterity. You're mix-matching your stats a bit and it'll mean your character is poor at one or the other, or both.

My recommendation is to focus on Dexterity OR Strength, not both. Two-Weapon Fighting is a great way to deal decent melee damage with Dexterity, and you can still afford to use long-range weapons.

Javelins and throwing axes are a great way to use Strength on ranged attacks.

For a Strength-build, I'd ditch Archery for Dueling, as the damage bonus is applied on thrown weapons.

While the Fighter is more consistent, the Ranger is very versatile and adaptable. I would not combine Barbarian with Ranger levels, though, as the Ranger's big gimmick is enhancing his attacks with spells, which are incompatible with the Barbarian's Rage.

I have 18 in Dex and Str already. The 3 ranger spells I was taking could be cast and benefited from before the range or are meant mostly for out of combat. Not saying you guys don't have a point though, I may just drop ranger. It'd be sad though, I was hoping to have room for it. And I'll have to explain how ranger levels got turned into barb levels, lol.

[Man_Over_Game]

You could just replace the Ranger levels into Rogue levels. Barbarian + Rogue does surprisingly well, since Reckless Attack can provide your own Sneak Attack, and the Rogue isn't much different than the Ranger (especially if you pick up Survival/Perception from the Rogue).

If you have access to the Xanathar's book, the Scout Rogue does a great job of feeling like a Ranger without casting any spells, and provides a lot for a Barbarian.

[GuestEleven]

You could just replace the Ranger levels into Rogue levels. Barbarian + Rogue does surprisingly well, since Reckless Attack can provide your own Sneak Attack, and the Rogue isn't much different than the Ranger (especially if you pick up Survival/Perception from the Rogue).

If you have access to the Xanathar's book, the Scout Rogue does a great job of feeling like a Ranger without casting any spells, and provides a lot for a Barbarian.

That sounds really good to check out, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

[Malbrack]

GuestEleven, I understand you have a concept in mind, but in 5e you can theme classes through roleplay. Like there's no reason a Fighter/Barbarian couldn't be a Ranger-like hunter tracker from a roleplaying perspective. And you don't need the Archery fighting style to use a bow. Fighters and Barbarians are both proficient with long bows. You'd miss out on +2 to hit, but, I mean, you're already ok with missing out on Extra Attack for several levels, so I think you can manage.

I just see so many people post complicated multi-class builds without thinking about what it would feel like to actually play. Pushing back Extra Attack for 3-6 levels feels bad.

[GuestEleven]

I think my biggest hardship coming from 3.5/PF to 5e and trying to multiclass is things like extra attacks, feats, and ability score increases that were once based off level are now baked into class progression. It feels like the system doesn't want you to multiclass, but maybe I just need to adjust.

[Man_Over_Game]

That sounds really good to check out, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

The catch is, Sneak Attack will require you to use a Finesse weapon to make it work in melee combat. You can still use a Finesse weapon with either Strength or Dexterity, but that's the limiting factor here. I still think it'd be a great change, though.

That, or you could talk to your DM about allowing you to ignore that restriction at the cost of something else (like no Rage damage bonus when gaining Sneak Attack).

[GuestEleven]

The catch is, Sneak Attack will require you to use a Finesse weapon to make it work in melee combat. You can still use a Finesse weapon with either Strength or Dexterity, but that's the limiting factor here. I still think it'd be a great change, though.

That, or you could talk to your DM about allowing you to ignore that restriction at the cost of something else (like no Rage damage bonus when gaining Sneak Attack).

If I did rogue as only a small dip, for instance just the 2-3 levels dip I considered for Ranger then wouldn't colossus slayer work just as well? If not better considering that it happens once a turn regardless of advantage or weapon type.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think my biggest hardship coming from 3.5/PF to 5e and trying to multiclass is things like extra attacks, feats, and ability score increases that were once based off level are now baked into class progression. It feels like the system doesn't want you to multiclass, but maybe I just need to adjust.

To be honest, the system's default is to not use multiclassing.

You can actually multiclass however you want fairly well, as long as you obey these rules:


Don't multiclass into/out of spellcasting, unless it's for a specific benefit.
Pick one of these classes, and don't have more than 4 levels into any other from this list: Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Paladin.
Don't mix spellcasting with the Barbarian.

[Man_Over_Game]

If I did rogue as only a small dip, for instance just the 2-3 levels dip I considered for Ranger then wouldn't colossus slayer work just as well? If not better considering that it happens once a turn regardless of advantage or weapon type.

Sneak Attack with a level 3 Rogue is 2d6 damage, and the Scout lets you move half your speed, on an enemy's turn, every round. This is on top of getting Expertise in several skills (which can include Athletics, for grappling enemies, which works well with Barbarian Rage).

The overall Barbarian/Rogue combo is to grapple a target with one attack, with Athletics and Expertise and Advantage, then knock them Prone (which they can't get up from without breaking the grapple first), using Cunning Action to drag that bad guy into your team, then moving 1/4 of your speed from the scout feature on the end of the enemy's turn. You effectively have an enemy who is Prone, can't get up without breaking your Athletics Grapple with Expertise and Advantage in your favor after they have to spend an Action to do so (roughly the equivalent of them beating a DC 21 Athletics check), and you moving them 3/4 of your speed into the middle of your team so that your team can start pounding on this poor sucker with Advantage to hit.

It's pretty brutal when it's done well.

Or you can just use Reckless Attack and hit a guy with Advantage and Sneak Attack for simple, heavy damage, and just move out of danger with your Scout feature (so that they can't take advantage of your Reckless Attack vulnerability).

[Malbrack]

In general with multi-classing, level 5 is huge for most classes. Many classes get Extra Attack or level 3 spells. It's such a massive bump in power that you almost never want to delay hitting 5 in your first class by more than 1 or 2 levels. Once you've gotten that big gain at 5 in a class, it becomes a lot less painful to branch out.

[GuestEleven]

I see. I've got a lot of important things to consider.

[GuestEleven]

Update: I just actually read Favored Enemy and can confirm I am dropping ranger. I can't believe how garbage this ability is. A friend told me that you have automatic advantage on attack rolls against your favored enemies. I guess he was just either wrong or homebrewing. I wanted Archery and Stealth proficiency, but now that I fully understand Favored enemy I'd rather just get it through other avenues.

[Malbrack]

I see. I've got a lot of important things to consider.

I hope I don't sound like a broken record, but here is more about what I meant by going 11 Fighter / 9 Barbarian:

You said you have a Fighter 1 with Great Weapon Fighting style and 18 STR and DEX. And you want to go Champion archetype and eventually some Barbarian.

I would recommend going 5 levels of Fighter first, then 4 levels of Barbarian, then 6 more levels of Fighter (to get 3 attacks from 11 Fighter), and finally cap it with 5 more levels of Barbarian. This progression makes sure you are powerful at every level along the way and that you get access to Barbarian features without waiting too long.

At 4 Fighter, since you already have 18 STR, take the Great Weapon Master feat.

Let's compare the difference at level 5 between 5 Fighter (with the Great Weapon Master feat) and say 1 Fighter / 2 Ranger / 2 Barbarian.

5 Fighter using a Great Sword with the GWM feat effect (-5 to hit, +10 damage). 2 hits of 2d6+14. That's 42 average. Let's say you only hit about 60% of the time, so 25.2 average damage per round. (For simplicity sake, I'm not counting Great Weapon Fighting style, Action surge, critical hits, or the expanded critical hit range from Champion.)

1 Fighter / 2 Ranger / 2 Barbarian using a Great Sword with Hunter's Mark but not Rage (since you can't Rage and use Hunter's Mark together): 1 hit of 2d6+4+1d6. That's 14.5 average. Let's say you hit about 85% of the time, so 12.3 damage per round. (For simplicity sake, I'm not counting Great Weapon Fighting style, Reckless Attack, or critical hits.)

That's right. The well-built Fighter does double the damage.

After getting that solid 5 Fighter set up, the 4 levels of Barbarian gives you Rage, Reckless Attack, and another Ability Score Increase (that you can use to either push your STR to 20 or pick up the Polearm Master feat if you think your DM will give you a good glaive or halberd). The on-demand advantage from Reckless Attack helps you get more out of the Great Weapon Master feat effect.

[GuestEleven]

I hope I don't sound like a broken record, but here is more about what I meant by going 11 Fighter / 9 Barbarian:

You said you have a Fighter 1 with Great Weapon Fighting style and 18 STR and DEX. And you want to go Champion archetype and eventually some Barbarian.

I would recommend going 5 levels of Fighter first, then 4 levels of Barbarian, then 6 more levels of Fighter (to get 3 attacks from 11 Fighter), and finally cap it with 5 more levels of Barbarian. This progression makes sure you are powerful at every level along the way and that you get access to Barbarian features without waiting too long.

At 4 Fighter, since you already have 18 STR, take the Great Weapon Master feat.

Let's compare the difference at level 5 between 5 Fighter (with the Great Weapon Master feat) and say 1 Fighter / 2 Ranger / 2 Barbarian.

5 Fighter using a Great Sword with the GWM feat effect (-5 to hit, +10 damage). 2 hits of 2d6+14. That's 42 average. Let's say you only hit about 60% of the time, so 25.2 average damage per round. (For simplicity sake, I'm not counting Great Weapon Fighting style, Action surge, critical hits, or the expanded critical hit range from Champion.)

1 Fighter / 2 Ranger / 2 Barbarian using a Great Sword with Hunter's Mark but not Rage (since you can't Rage and use Hunter's Mark together): 1 hit of 2d6+4+1d6. That's 14.5 average. Let's say you hit about 85% of the time, so 12.3 damage per round. (For simplicity sake, I'm not counting Great Weapon Fighting style, Reckless Attack, or critical hits.)

That's right. The well-built Fighter does double the damage.

After getting that solid 5 Fighter set up, the 4 levels of Barbarian gives you Rage, Reckless Attack, and another Ability Score Increase (that you can use to either push your STR to 20 or pick up the Polearm Master feat if you think your DM will give you a good glaive or halberd). The on-demand advantage from Reckless Attack helps you get more out of the Great Weapon Master feat effect.

This is definitely a far better looking build. What do you think of 4 Fighter and 16 Barb? Probably taking the Wolf Totem at 14.

[Malbrack]

This is definitely a far better looking build. What do you think of 4 Fighter and 16 Barb? Probably taking the Wolf Totem at 14.

16 Barbarian / 4 Fighter should be fine. Since you've already gone 1 Fighter, you'd have to go 5 Barbarian next to get Extra Attack as soon as possible. You'd be weaker at character level 5 (1 Fighter / 4 Barbarian), but by 6 you'd be back on track, which isn't too bad.

[GuestEleven]

16 Barbarian / 4 Fighter should be fine. Since you've already gone 1 Fighter, you'd have to go 5 Barbarian next to get Extra Attack as soon as possible. You'd be weaker at character level 5 (1 Fighter / 4 Barbarian), but by 6 you'd be back on track, which isn't too bad.

Awesome. I'll have to talk to my DM some before I make my choice, but thanks for all the help.

[CTurbo]

I agree with whoever said Champion 11/Barbarian 9 as being extremely good.

You could fit 3 levels of Ranger into it and it would work, but I wouldn't take a single Ranger level until you had your extra attack though. I'd probably choose Gloom Stalker over Hunter. Also, I find the Great Weapon Fighting style really underwhelming so I'd probably take Archery at Fighter 1 anyway no matter what.


Consider going Fighter 1(Archery), Barbarian 5 for extra attack, then 3 more Fighter levels and NOT planning any further out at this point. You can reassess your progression after that depending on how things are going in play. There is no point in planning out a level 20 build so early.

I really like a single level War Cleric dip for GWM Barbarians with a decent Wis score. You could even take Cleric 3 for even more utility. You won't ALWAYS be raging so you could cast Bless when you're not. Spiritual Weapon is not concentration so you could use that while raging. Just throwing that out there.

[GuestEleven]

I agree with whoever said Champion 11/Barbarian 9 as being extremely good.

You could fit 3 levels of Ranger into it and it would work, but I wouldn't take a single Ranger level until you had your extra attack though. I'd probably choose Gloom Stalker over Hunter. Also, I find the Great Weapon Fighting style really underwhelming so I'd probably take Archery at Fighter 1 anyway no matter what.


Consider going Fighter 1(Archery), Barbarian 5 for extra attack, then 3 more Fighter levels and NOT planning any further out at this point. You can reassess your progression after that depending on how things are going in play. There is no point in planning out a level 20 build so early.

I really like a single level War Cleric dip for GWM Barbarians with a decent Wis score. You could even take Cleric 3 for even more utility. You won't ALWAYS be raging so you could cast Bless when you're not. Spiritual Weapon is not concentration so you could use that while raging. Just throwing that out there.

I agree, trying to plan all my levels out at this point is getting ahead of myself. Is Great Weapon Style really that bad? If I get to reroll 1&2's with a greatsword that's already 6 weapon damage minimal instead of 2. I thought that was pretty good. I checkee out Gloomstalker and I really like the 3rd level ability, it has renewed my interest in picking up Ranger. Can't say it completely negates my disgust for 5e Favored Enemy, but it is a start.

[CTurbo]

I agree, trying to plan all my levels out at this point is getting ahead of myself. Is Great Weapon Style really that bad? If I get to reroll 1&2's with a greatsword that's already 6 weapon damage minimal instead of 2. I thought that was pretty good. I checkee out Gloomstalker and I really like the 3rd level ability, it has renewed my interest in picking up Ranger. Can't say it completely negates my disgust for 5e Favored Enemy, but it is a start.


Can you use the UA Revised Ranger??? It's version of Favored Enemy is much improved. You can simply select "humanoids" which is great IMO. The Revised Ranger is much much better actually.


Great Weapon Fighting allows you to reroll 1s and 2s ONCE and then you have to keep the second roll. So you can roll a 2, choose to reroll, and get a 1 the second time. Basically the minimum is still 2... it's just harder to get. I have seen it happen though from time to time. I like GWF better with a Greataxe.

[GuestEleven]

Can you use the UA Revised Ranger??? It's version of Favored Enemy is much improved. You can simply select "humanoids" which is great IMO. The Revised Ranger is much much better actually.


Great Weapon Fighting allows you to reroll 1s and 2s ONCE and then you have to keep the second roll. So you can roll a 2, choose to reroll, and get a 1 the second time. Basically the minimum is still 2... it's just harder to get. I have seen it happen though from time to time. I like GWF better with a Greataxe.

Oh! It didn't say that in my PHB, but I found where it says that online. That is a pretty big difference.

Edit: I just looked at UA Revised Ranger. It does look a little better, I'll have to talk to my DM about it. I may even select to go deeper into Ranger, not positive though. Still gotta say they still didn't do Foe Slayer any favors. /sadboy

[sophontteks]

If you take the rogue barb route, go totem barbarian. Take elk as the first option and with it you can move 110 feet per round with the rogue's bonus action dash. Now you are a ranged weapon.

[Malbrack]

I agree, trying to plan all my levels out at this point is getting ahead of myself. Is Great Weapon Style really that bad? If I get to reroll 1&2's with a greatsword that's already 6 weapon damage minimal instead of 2. I thought that was pretty good. I checkee out Gloomstalker and I really like the 3rd level ability, it has renewed my interest in picking up Ranger. Can't say it completely negates my disgust for 5e Favored Enemy, but it is a start.

Great Weapon Fighting style is fine, especially with a Great Sword (since it is 2 d6s that can be rerolled). The math has been broken down elsewhere, and it works out to an average of +1.33 damage per hit. That adds up fast, especially with things like Extra Attack and Action Surge. GWF with a Greataxe adds 0.83 per hit and Glaive/Halberd adds 0.8.

[GuestEleven]

Great Weapon Fighting style is fine, especially with a Great Sword (since it is 2 d6s that can be rerolled). The math has been broken down elsewhere, and it works out to an average of +1.33 damage per hit. That adds up fast, especially with things like Extra Attack and Action Surge. GWF with a Greataxe adds 0.83 per hit and Glaive/Halberd adds 0.8.

Good info.


If you take the rogue barb route, go totem barbarian. Take elk as the first option and with it you can move 110 feet per round with the rogue's bonus action dash. Now you are a ranged weapon.

:smallbiggrin: Excellent.

[GuestEleven]

On a side note: my character has 1 wish available to him. Any suggestions on how to use it?

[GlenSmash!]

The bow won't benefit from Strength, and the Great Sword won't benefit from Dexterity. You're mix-matching your stats a bit and it'll mean your character is poor at one or the other, or both.

My recommendation is to focus on Dexterity OR Strength, not both. Two-Weapon Fighting is a great way to deal decent melee damage with Dexterity, and you can still afford to use long-range weapons.

Javelins and throwing axes are a great way to use Strength on ranged attacks. On fighters sure, on Barbarians I tend to start with 16 strength, and 14 dex and find the difference of -1 is fairly negligible. In melee I swing my two hander, if I can't get into melee shooting a longbow works fairly well and is often better than losing Rage from not attacking. I find I run out of arrows a lot slower than I run out of handaxes or even Javelins.




I would not combine Barbarian with Ranger levels, though, as the Ranger's big gimmick is enhancing his attacks with spells, which are incompatible with the Barbarian's Rage.


As a general rule I like this, however I think point there is a caveat. You can make good use of spells even as a Barbarian in a number of scenarios, specifically out of combat. Utility spells and rituals all work great on a Barbarian and give neat options.

Also in the scenario where you can't get into melee conjuring a volley may be the worst idea in the world.

I'm about about to multiclass a Barb into Ranger for the utility, not really increased power (though gloom stalker does get some neat stuff for the first round of combat).