This cleric I made...

[Iamdead7]

I decided to make a Cleric of Kord, focused mainly on grappling.


Human for the feat, and Imp. Unarmed Strike, Imp. Grapple and Power Attack as feats. (at lvl 3)

Question is, as of right now, this is working fine (able to use Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength from domains = yayz) I grapple, paladin puts sword through their face, but later on, as monsters improve, is this sort of character going to be at a heavy disadvantage?

[Neon Knight]

Honestly? Probably. As things start getting bigger than large, you will find yourself unable to defeat them at grapples. And humanoid foes might be able to get spells like Freedom of Movement to avoid your combat power.

It does depend upon what your standard foe is, though.

[BardicDuelist]

Eh, as long as you don't focus on it anymore, you will still be able to be a Clericzilla with good spell and feat selection after level 3.

[ocato]

Strength domain and power attack mean that you'll be able to pack a whallop with a two hander later. I wouldn't bother with the grapple feats, you won't really need them at early levels and by later levels they won't be enough to catch you up to dragons and 4 legged monsters. I'd focus more on trying to be a melee crusher, since your spells will support that easily.

[de-trick]

as said before fine when low level, once things have +30's in grapples you won't be grappling it

[kemmotar]

Later on you can use spells like righteous might and divine power for +14 str and one size larger thus giving you an extra +11 to your grapple check...meanwhile you can go for divine metamagic-persistent spell and make the above spells 24hr duration...maybe take extra turning for it since i dont think you would have high charisma...Then you can take reaping mauler PrC, earth's embrace(feat) and other stuff...I also think kord would appreciate it and you could get some RP bonuses...

Going 2hander and using wallop would probably be a waste of feats so i wouldnt recommend it since you would be late in completing any build you're going for minimizing your current advantages and later on making the 3 feats you initially took meaningless and a liability...

Dont expect to grapple the 2 sizes larger dragon though unless you figure out something better...but its a fun build to play:smallbiggrin:

[Iamdead7]

Thanks for the help.

I do have 13 cha, but improved turning will be nice. I'll take a look at some of these feats

[cupkeyk]

Grappling could still be useful if you shape change or polymorph into a grappling form like a tendriculous or something. If you can access those spells

[kemmotar]

Improved turning would kinda be a moot point if you go DMM...instead take extra turning for 4 extra turn attempts to expend:smallbiggrin:

The polymorph idea was really good, polymorph into something big too preferably...check the MM and you'll probably find something...Also a good idea is to summon something and have it help you grapple it, or have it attack what you grapple.

[Iamdead7]

Bah. I keep saying Improved Turning when I mean extra turning.

I could always get permanized Enlarge person.

If I do that, can I cast enlarge person on me again so I can be Huge?

[cupkeyk]

Nope, size changes from the same source does not stack. But theoretically you can have perma-enlarge then righteous might/divine power(whichever makes you bigger)

[kemmotar]

Nope, size changes from the same source does not stack. But theoretically you can have perma-enlarge then righteous might/divine power(whichever makes you bigger)

Yup..that's the idea...then you could also take superior unarmed strike(if you go that way) and make yourself a fearsome (seemingly) weaponless huge machine of grappling death(with healing:smallbiggrin: )

BTW, if you do take reaping mauler, with close quarters fightingfeat requirement) even if you lose a grapple and the enemy tries to grapple back you can attack(AoO) and you add the damage to your opposed grapple check(hence superior unarmed strike)...even if the opponent has impr grapple you can still do it(feat description)

Also spikes on your(presumably) Full plate might be a nice touch...reaping mauler is a 5 level PrC anyway so you dont lose too many spellcasting levels and its worth it, especially the lvl 5 ability(devastating grapple) if you maintain a pin for 3 rounds you force a fort save 15+your wis modifier or die...presumably if you maintain the pin longer you force the save each round in addition to pin damage...Not bad:smallbiggrin:

[F.L.]

You may be able to go a little distance further if you can somehow get ahold of wizard spells. Some other grappling ideas are in the following thread for a grappling wizard. Also, polymorph cheese if it's allowed by your DM.

http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651

[Iamdead7]

What books are some of these feats and PrC in?

Reaping mauler sounds scary, but I doubt if it'd fit his char.

Superior Unarmed Strike sounds like something I need.

[Quietus]

The problem with Reaping Mauler is that by RAW, you lose all of its abilities when you get to Large size or bigger. Thus, a Divine Powered cleric/mauler loses all benefits of that class.

The reason for this is the Clever Wrestling feat that the Mauler requires. It requires that you be small or medium size to have it, so when you become Large size, you lose that feat. You'll regain it when you shrink again, but still. If you've lost Clever Wrestling, you no longer qualify for the PrC, and when you don't qualify for it you lose all abilities associated with it.


Also, Enlarge Person and Divine Power don't stack :


Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,.

[kemmotar]

True, hadn't noticed that. Close quarter's fighting is in complete warrior. So is reaping mauler. Maybe you can ask the DM to make a houserule that you dont lose the PrC benefits, just the benefits of clever wrestling when larger than medium...personally i think that losing the PrC benefits if you no longer qualify for a feat requirement because of size is kinda pointless..Besides a grappling PrC should not disallow you to increase in size improving your grappling ability.

maybe you just can't use clever wrestling while larger than medium...even so you could just ask your DM to house rule it:smallbiggrin:

[F.L.]

Or just work from a halfling as a base race, but that'd be for another character.

[Iamdead7]

A halfling base race would decrease my base str by 2, plus small size is another -4 on my grapple, and the only way to reverse it is with spells that take time to cast.

Bad idea.

[Iamdead7]

Complete Warrior didn't have a lot when I looked at it.

Besides the feat that lets you do bludgeoning, slashing or piercing damage in an unarmed strike.

Strange...

[cupkeyk]

I realize that the primary issue with my suggestion is that Kord does not have access to the Animal Domain, which is the only domain that grants access to Shape Change.

As a larger sized animal, your type remains humanoid. Your size is completely "natural" and you can still benefit from Divine Power/ Enlarge Person.

[kemmotar]

Complete Warrior didn't have a lot when I looked at it.

Besides the feat that lets you do bludgeoning, slashing or piercing damage in an unarmed strike.

Strange...

Close quarter's fighting, reaping mauler PrC, Earth's embrace, roundabout kick...

[OneWinged4ngel]

as said before fine when low level, once things have +30's in grapples you won't be grappling it

Incidentally, I can easily beat a +30 grapple with a level 5 *Wizard.* Seriously. It's not hard. You can even dump strength and do it, because the massive grapple bonuses are actually *all in feats and spells.*

Seriously people, we're talking about a CLERIC here. Don't be too scared to even try to beat +30. I'm sure if I had my books with me I could dig through a few supplements and find the relevant spells (unfortunately, all the great grapple spells I know offhand happen to be *arcane.*) Of course, there are ways to get access to arcane spells as a cleric ;)

Of course, an obvious start is Divine Power + Righteous Might.

[AslanCross]

Complete Warrior also has that nifty Weapon style feat (Bear Fang) that gives you a free grapple attempt after hitting with TWF axe and dagger, then allows you an extra attack with the dagger when the grapple succeeds. A very demanding build, but I was able to pull it off with a Human Monk 1/Fighter 5. (Who is a minor NPC I'll be using to teach my players about special attacks)

Feats
Monk 1 [Human] Knifefighter (Player's Guide to Faerun)
Monk 1 [Monk] Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1 [Monk] Improved Grapple
Monk 1 Earth's Embrace
Fighter 1/Monk 1 [Ftr 1 Bonus] Power Attack
Fighter 2/Monk 1 [Ftr 2 Bonus] Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 2/Monk 1 Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Fighter 3/Monk 1 --
Fighter 4/Monk 1 [Ftr 4 Bonus ]Weapon Focus (Battleaxe)
Fighter 5/Monk 1 Bear Fang Style

[cupkeyk]

Close quarter's fighting, reaping mauler PrC, Earth's embrace, roundabout kick...

thereby reiterating that complete warrior does not have a lot to offer a grappler build.

[F.L.]

The idea with the halfling is that even when enlarged 1 size class, you're still medium, so you still get clever wrestling. If you can keep clever wrestling any other way, obviously do that. But halflings are essentially humans scaled down 1 size, especially for the type that get a bonus feat at 1st level.

[Iamdead7]

Still, why be medium with spells when I can be Large with spells?

[Shas aia Toriia]

Because then you keep your PrC.

[Iamdead7]

If I do PrC

[Quietus]

Complete Warrior didn't have a lot when I looked at it.

Besides the feat that lets you do bludgeoning, slashing or piercing damage in an unarmed strike.

Strange...

Versatile unarmed strike is PHB2, not CWar.



Because then you keep your PrC.

The Reaping Mauler gives you : 5 base attack, +2 to grapple (I'm assuming you take Improved Grapple anyway), Mobility, Counter Grapple, Sleeper Lock, and Devastating Grapple. Of those, Mobility is pointless because you don't move often as a grappler, counter grapple helps you to ESCAPE a grapple, sleeper lock takes a very long time to work, and devastating grapple takes even longer. Meaning that if you take Improved Grapple as a normal feat (or dip a level of Monk), you're giving up 5 levels of Cleric, 2 strength, and a size category in order to maintain these abilities.

In those five levels of Cleric (or other PrC), you would get : A minimum of 3 base attack, possibly 4. You'd get +2 strength (Don't have to be halfling or gnome), and +4 from Size bonus, compared to an identically buffed halfling. Meaning JUST FROM YOUR SIZE, BASE ATTACK, AND STRENGTH, you're 2 points ahead of a halfling cleric reaping mauler at grapple checks. You just can't render them unconscious if you keep them pinned for a round (not that that's likely anyway), nor can you force a fort vs death if you pin them for THREE CONSECUTIVE ROUNDS. That's DAMNED tough, and if you can do that reliably, you might as well keep them pinned and kill them with damage anyway.

Oh, and none of this includes any benefits that you get from casting spells as a cleric of 5 levels higher, either.

[Iamdead7]

After reading the Reaping Mauler fully...


It's not worth it.

But I learned our Pally needs to PrC to Knight Protector.

Specifically, Knight Protector of my exposed ass while I am grappling.

[Dervag]

After reading the Reaping Mauler fully...


It's not worth it.

But I learned our Pally needs to PrC to Knight Protector.

Specifically, Knight Protector of my exposed ass while I am grappling.So... this is some sort of Greco-Roman wrestling style, then?

On a more serious note, I wouldn't be surprised; grappling is very much a one-on-one tactic.

[Iamdead7]

There's a thing in Complete Divine, Sacred Fist... Not really grappling, but unarmed damage...

probably not, but it does let me keep gaining divine spell levels

[Iamdead7]

not much else in it