Remember the Lore Wizard?

[jaappleton]

For the unfamiliar:http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_wizrd_wrlck_uav2_i48nf.pdf

Lore Wizard is widely considered the most utterly broken thing to come out of UA, ever. Moreso than Mystic, from people I've spoken with.

I'm not going to defend it. I mean, LOOK AT THE THING. It's indefensibly broken.

My question is this: My DM said, and I quote, "All UA material is allowed, so long as it hasn't been in print yet. If its been printed in a book, you need to use the print version."

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest, how much of an ass am I if I showed up with a Lore Wizard?

Look, sometimes you just want to throw radiant fireballs, y'know?

[PhantomSoul]

Remember the Lore Wizard?

I'd really rather not.

[Naanomi]

Depends entirely on your capacity for self-restraint

[nickl_2000]

For the unfamiliar:http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_wizrd_wrlck_uav2_i48nf.pdf

Lore Wizard is widely considered the most utterly broken thing to come out of UA, ever. Moreso than Mystic, from people I've spoken with.

I'm not going to defend it. I mean, LOOK AT THE THING. It's indefensibly broken.

My question is this: My DM said, and I quote, "All UA material is allowed, so long as it hasn't been in print yet. If its been printed in a book, you need to use the print version."

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest, how much of an ass am I if I showed up with a Lore Wizard?

Look, sometimes you just want to throw radiant fireballs, y'know?

See my emphasis. Do you really need our opinion on scaling here? :smallbiggrin:



Depends entirely on your capacity for self-restraint

Do you know who we are talking about here?

[jaappleton]

I'd really rather not.

This might be the single best possible response :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

Do you really want to play the gotcha game?

Just ask the DM if they meant the Lore Wizard is allowed too.

[jaappleton]

Do you know who we are talking about here?

Geez, nickl, do I have that big of a reputation? :smalltongue:

In my defense... While I've certainly theory crafted some outrageous stuff... I don't think I've ever actually put any of it into play. I've cracked open the books and done the math, statted up some absolute game breakers, but I don't recall actually....

Wait. I DID once play a Tempest Theurge. But I retired it after 3 sessions, maxxed Chain Lightning was too much even for me.

While the theory building is fun, actually playing something that renders 2/3rds of the party obsolete is not fun. Because I've been the guy rendered obsolete before, its a terrible feeling and I don't want to inflict it upon my fellow players.

THAT SAID.... radiant fireballs, tho.

[Willie the Duck]

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest, how much of an ass am I if I showed up with a Lore Wizard?

Look, sometimes you just want to throw radiant fireballs, y'know?


THAT SAID.... radiant fireballs, tho.

It is all going to come down to the group in question*, and what you actually end up doing with the character.
*Are the other players playing the optimization game, or not?


If you really just wanted to throw radiant fireballs, then what you are suggesting you would do with the character is high-powered, but hardly makes the rest of the party irrelevant. There are simple feats in the game which get around fire resistance, possibly upping that to 'getting a round resistance and immunity' or even the logical extreme 'immune to fire, vulnerable to radiant' target is still only going to show up once in a campaign.

The question is whether that's what you will limit yourself to, and only you can answer that.

[JakOfAllTirades]

On a scale of 1 to 10... wait, is that a log scale? Like, to the 10th power?

Because that might actually cover it.

Be sure to throw in a few levels of SORCERER KING!!! to round out your character.

You're welcome. :biggrin:

[jaappleton]

On a scale of 1 to 10... wait, is that a log scale? Like, to the 10th power?

Because that might actually cover it.

Be sure to throw in a few levels of SORCERER KING!!! to round out your character.

You're welcome. :biggrin:

.....you wound me, Jak. You didn't have to go for the jugular!

[JumboWheat01]

I'm going to say 11, since on a scale of one-to-ten, that's how broken the Lore Wizard is, so that's how much of an annoyance you're going to be with it. If you've the urge to try something different, why not give the original Artificer in the first Eberron UA a try? No where near as broken, and more team player oriented. Parties like team players, yes?

[Rafaelfras]

1 if you just want to play a stronger wizard 10 if you intend to break his game:smallbiggrin:

[Bloodcloud]

Somehow, this one goes to eleven.

It's also over 9000!!!!!!!

Honestly, that would be a great way to get your DM to change his policy forever.

[Karnitis]

I personally think there's nothing wrong with that class at all. It's very balanced by all the weaknesses wizards have in general. The only thing I'd say is you may get targeted, so you need to pick a strong race to back you up.

If you go with Lore Wizard, this is a good compliment:

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DuelSoulBlade_Shadow_Vampelf_(5e_Race)

[jaappleton]

I personally think there's nothing wrong with that class at all. It's very balanced by all the weaknesses wizards have in general. The only thing I'd say is you may get targeted, so you need to pick a strong race to back you up.

If you go with Lore Wizard, this is a good compliment:

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DuelSoulBlade_Shadow_Vampelf_(5e_Race)

I see what you did there :smalltongue:

[Chronos]

Eh, it's perfectly balanced, as long as you don't get a familiar.

[Lube]

On a scale of 1 to 10... wait, is that a log scale? Like, to the 10th power?

Because that might actually cover it.

Be sure to throw in a few levels of SORCERER KING!!! to round out your character.

You're welcome. :biggrin:

Fattality.

[jaappleton]

Fattality.

Seriously, Jak absolutely bodyslammed my with that one. I can't even be mad. :smallbiggrin:

[Willie the Duck]

Seriously, Jak absolutely bodyslammed my with that one. I can't even be mad. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I hope not. You all-but-literally posted one of those 'roast me' selfies with your premise. I hope you were expecting this.

[Rafaelfras]

On a scale of 1 to 10... wait, is that a log scale? Like, to the 10th power?

Because that might actually cover it.

Be sure to throw in a few levels of SORCERER KING!!! to round out your character.

You're welcome. :biggrin:

Plot twist, the lore Wizard IS THE SORCERER KING!!!

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/929310053278969409/7CDBEF76DBAEF7160E5761DEF01FCD056EAB8FAF/

[jaappleton]

Plot twist, the lore Wizard IS SORCERER KING!!!

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/929310053278969409/7CDBEF76DBAEF7160E5761DEF01FCD056EAB8FAF/

I'll give that guy credit for this much: Gif game was always on point.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How much of an ass...like, maybe a 7? It's pretty overpowered by 5e standards, and can easily overshadow similar characters, but you're hardly going to break the campaign over your knee.

[EdenIndustries]

As others have said, I think it all depends on the DM and style of game. I had a DM that encouraged me to make a Lore Wizard because he thought I'd be able to really squeeze all the RP juice out of coming up with new spell combinations with respect to changing elements and saves. And sure enough, I had a ton of fun describing all the unique spells that my character cast and the rest of the group seemed pretty interested in what I would come up with next. So mechanical implications aside, that is an extremely cool thematic/RP feature!

So yes, it's overpowered, but it also can provide some very fertile ground for creativity in the right group too.

[Doug Lampert]

Eh, it's perfectly balanced, as long as you don't get a familiar.

Yep, not getting a familiar would actually make it under-powered.

More seriously, the same people who thought the rest of 5th edition was good enough to publish, thought Lore Wizard was good enough to playtest.

It sure looks to me like they were wrong, but not nearly as wrong as the people who thought a straight core druid in 3.5 was balanced with a straight core fighter.... And people had fun playing that game.

Your GM said it's legal. IMAO you're not being an ass at all to show up with one. It's overpowered, but so what? It's still basically tier 3 in 3.5 terms. It will play nice with others as long as there's not a blaster sorcerer in the group. It's within the power level your GM specified.

[dragoeniex]

Here are a couple suggestions to scale the crazy down a bit:

Lv 2:
One expertise skill- not flippin' four. Drop the initiative ability completely. Remove force as a damage type you can switch between (possibly radiant, necrotic). Leave the rest.

Lv 6: Limit alchemical changes to spells you have not already changed the type/save for. This gives you more options and fits the theme, but keeps you from doing intelligence-save icy fireballs at 700 ft. Speaking of which, give the distance a shorter cap. Twice range up to a mile, thrice range up to a mile... anything that doesn't leave the DM paranoid over you nuking castles from a far-off hill. Imo, you could probably remove the option to raise DC.

Lv 10: This is fine, leave it.

Lv 14: Crazy far away. Work with DM over how this can be used/tweaked/replaced in the very long amount of time you have until it hits.

[Spiritchaser]

I think you’d have to know your fellow players and the DM.

If you’re playing with some caffeinated sorlocks, paladin multiclass and other power builds, it shouldn’t be a problem. It’s not absolute power that’s hard to manage as a DM, it’s usually relative differences between players that gets hard (at least that’s how I find it)

Alternatively, if you have a solid, creative and experienced DM, then they may not have issues even with extreme levels of power disparity.

[Seekergeek]

I played a lore wizard for a brief time. Granted, I often take the level of trust and mutual respect at my table for granted (we've been playing together since we were kids - now via Roll20 as most of us moved to different cities/provinces/continents), but I didn't end up with a problem. For me the Lore Wizard really lets you lean in to a theme with your character. I wanted to play an orc plague wizard who worshiped Yurtrus and with lore wizard I was able to essentially reflavour spells accordingly. Everything ended around level 7 or 9 I think so I didn't get to tool around with the level 10 or 14 abilities but what I did encounter was certainly ripe for abuse but that didn't mean it needed to be taken advantage of that way.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that it depends on why you want to play it as to whether or not it is an annoying or overpowered element at your table.

[jaappleton]

I played a lore wizard for a brief time. Granted, I often take the level of trust and mutual respect at my table for granted (we've been playing together since we were kids - now via Roll20 as most of us moved to different cities/provinces/continents), but I didn't end up with a problem. For me the Lore Wizard really lets you lean in to a theme with your character. I wanted to play an orc plague wizard who worshiped Yurtrus and with lore wizard I was able to essentially reflavour spells accordingly. Everything ended around level 7 or 9 I think so I didn't get to tool around with the level 10 or 14 abilities but what I did encounter was certainly ripe for abuse but that didn't mean it needed to be taken advantage of that way.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that it depends on why you want to play it as to whether or not it is an annoying or overpowered element at your table.

I had this idea for an academic wizard. A teacher, really. Professor and Scholar of Theologian Studies at the University of ________. Indiana Jones, with magic. As a theologian professor, the ability to make some spells into Radiant seemed like a perfect fit.

"Well, why not Cleric...?"
Because I've played 18 Clerics already, and this guy is a bit of a book nerd.

[RedMage125]

Plot twist, the lore Wizard IS THE SORCERER KING!!!

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/929310053278969409/7CDBEF76DBAEF7160E5761DEF01FCD056EAB8FAF/

Fake news, that guy in the GIF had his shirt on.:smallbiggrin:

[Yunru]

THAT SAID.... radiant fireballs, tho.

Radiant Fireballs?
Bah! Strength based Hold spells!

[Grod_The_Giant]

I had this idea for an academic wizard. A teacher, really. Professor and Scholar of Theologian Studies at the University of ________. Indiana Jones, with magic. As a theologian professor, the ability to make some spells into Radiant seemed like a perfect fit.

"Well, why not Cleric...?"
Because I've played 18 Clerics already, and this guy is a bit of a book nerd.
If it helps at all, in Grod's Guide I've got a balanced scholarly-wizard archetype and a set of feats to change the energy types of your spells...

[sophontteks]

Make sure you can take advantage of that 1 mile casting range. If you can see them, you are too close.
When you get a quest just ask for latitude and longitude coordinates, open the tavern door, and nuke it. No sense getting your hands dirty.

[Spiritchaser]

Radiant Fireballs?
Bah! Strength based Hold spells!

Bah to both!

Dex (or whatever) based contagion.

Sure it’s only once per day, but it’s a good chance to burn every legendary save the big bad gets with a single action, and doom take them if they’ve had the audacity to use one of them on you for something else!

Want to be really nasty? Take a few levels of sorcerer for distant spell and burn all the legendary saves that ancient dragon has before it’s even in range.

Ok no don’t do that.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Honestly, I'd say the Lore Wizard's damage type and save switching shenanigans are perfectly balanced and thematically appropriate...

...If you use them as a replacer for the Wild Magic Sorcerer's archetype capstone. At that level, the abilities are useful but hardly world-shaking, and in that archetype they make much more sense - "Why yes, that is a psychic fireball with a strength save. Why yes, it is completely impossible by the laws of reason and the arcane. I'm a Wild Mage, mate, deal with it."

[KorvinStarmast]

Do it. Play a Lore Wizard. We had one in our group that is currently in Tier 3 (but we stalled about 14/15 level, and I worry that the campaign may go dormant. (Sad Face!!!) He was effective. I still think that one of his most awesome things was Animate Objects in fights with big critters. It just tears things apart ...

He played Lore wizard from early to 13. Then, he decided at a very convenient break point in the campaign to try a different PC and joined us as a Paladin 11.

Enjoy, and please, when you toss those fire balls doing radiant damage, tell them that Korvin Sent you. :smallbiggrin:
(My original, and now dead, character Korvin was a Life Cleric).

Go forth and do great things. :smallcool:

[Kane0]

If your DM is competent and chill it won't be a problem. Just make your save swaps as funny as possible, sort of a wasted opportunity otherwise.

[Languid_Duck]

I'm of the opinion that the saving throw swapping is the only thing inherently gamebreaking about the subclass. Avoid using that and it's still a 9/10 or 10/10, but at least this puts it on the scale. Especially if you avoid going out of your way to break Alchemical Casting.

[JumboWheat01]

Honestly, I'd say the Lore Wizard's damage type and save switching shenanigans are perfectly balanced and thematically appropriate...

...If you use them as a replacer for the Wild Magic Sorcerer's archetype capstone. At that level, the abilities are useful but hardly world-shaking, and in that archetype they make much more sense - "Why yes, that is a psychic fireball with a strength save. Why yes, it is completely impossible by the laws of reason and the arcane. I'm a Wild Mage, mate, deal with it."

Even better if it was based on a table that you had to roll on in order to see what you got and couldn't pick and choose. FULL CHAOS!

[jaappleton]

......my DM has approved Lore Wizard......

[Kane0]

I like the idea for randomly rolling damage/save type when you choose to use the abilities, that sounds fun!

[JakOfAllTirades]

......my DM has approved Lore Wizard......

Go forth and unleash heck.

[Jerrykhor]

......my DM has approved Lore Wizard......

Play it then. My DM approved Mystic and so many people were saying its OP.

[Waterdeep Merch]

This presents an opportunity to see if certain notoriously terrible spells could have actually been good had they targeted the right save.

Ray of enfeeblement comes to mind. It's best used against the sort of things that also have a high Constitution.

But how many bruisers happen to have high Intelligence?

[J-H]

I'll give that guy credit for this much: Gif game was always on point.

I dunno, 80% of his photos looked like drow to me.

[Bloodcloud]

This presents an opportunity to see if certain notoriously terrible spells could have actually been good had they targeted the right save.

Ray of enfeeblement comes to mind. It's best used against the sort of things that also have a high Constitution.

But how many bruisers happen to have high Intelligence?

Well, Ray of enfeeblement lasts at least a turn. Even better, if you cast it right after a legendary monster's turn, it apply to all his legendary actions before allowing a save. I'd argue it is actually pretty decent agains't big legendary bruiser, given low-cost no save until end of actual turn. Like say, right after the dragon's breath.

[Eragon123]

There is a homebrew that kinda makes the lore wizard more fair.

The gimmick is that you actually have to make a spell map and can only change attack attributes/saves through local connections on it.

Original Reddit post I found. (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/6uiqxh/arcane_tradition_school_of_geometry_for_wizards/)

I don't know if the original creator was the one who reformatted everything but for those who like DM's Guild.
DM's Guild (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/267026/School-of-Geometry)


Finally, I made my own changes to the class after playing it a little. Some of it is a bit janky but overall I think it is more fun.
my version (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk5_FHImX)

[Grod_The_Giant]

There is a homebrew that kinda makes the lore wizard more fair.

The gimmick is that you actually have to make a spell map and can only change attack attributes/saves through local connections on it.

Original Reddit post I found. (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/6uiqxh/arcane_tradition_school_of_geometry_for_wizards/)

I don't know if the original creator was the one who reformatted everything but for those who like DM's Guild.
DM's Guild (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/267026/School-of-Geometry)


Finally, I made my own changes to the class after playing it a little. Some of it is a bit janky but overall I think it is more fun.
my version (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk5_FHImX)
What does it say in my signature, damnit? What did I just say?

[Eragon123]

What does it say in my signature, damnit? What did I just say?

I found it a blast to use. I actually found the this homebrew first and only realized the similarity to the Lore Wizard later.

[MrWesson22]

Eh, I DMed a campaign that had a sorlock, a pally/sorcerer, and a winged tiefling lore wizard. As long as the player of the lore wizard doesn't metagame like crazy with resistances/vulnerabilities and strong/weak saves of monsters they face, it's really no worse than the other two aforementioned builds.

[Chronos]

It doesn't take "metagaming like crazy" to do that. You can usually make a pretty good guess what a creature's good and bad saves are just by looking at them, or at least seeing one round of them in combat, and knowledge skills (especially with expertise) can usually tell you resistances and vulnerabilities.

[Bloodcloud]

It doesn't take "metagaming like crazy" to do that. You can usually make a pretty good guess what a creature's good and bad saves are just by looking at them, or at least seeing one round of them in combat, and knowledge skills (especially with expertise) can usually tell you resistances and vulnerabilities.

I mean, most monsters are color coded. It’s really not that hard.

[JumboWheat01]

I mean, most monsters are color coded. It’s really not that hard.

Hmm... now an idea of a full colorblind adventurer pops into my head...

"What color's its scales? We fightin' a good dragon or a bad dragon?"

[FrancisBean]

Honestly, I'd say the Lore Wizard's damage type and save switching shenanigans are perfectly balanced and thematically appropriate...

...If you use them as a replacer for the Wild Magic Sorcerer's archetype capstone. At that level, the abilities are useful but hardly world-shaking, and in that archetype they make much more sense - "Why yes, that is a psychic fireball with a strength save. Why yes, it is completely impossible by the laws of reason and the arcane. I'm a Wild Mage, mate, deal with it."

...and now I have the inspiration to homebrew a worthwhile wild sorcerer for my next campaign. Excellent, thank you!