Kensai Monk and improvised weapons

[Lupine]

Can a Kensai Monk have improvised weapons as a kensai weapon, or should I require the player to narrow it down to specific weapons? Likewise, could a player gain proficiency in improvised weapons?

I think the roleplay aspect would be quite humorous...

[Hytheter]

First of all, *kensei

By RAW you can't pick an improvised weapon as a kensei weapon. I might consider allowing a particular improvised weapon to be chosen, but just allowing all improvised weapons to qualify goes against the subclass's whole point.

You can also get proficiency with improvised weapons by taking the Tavern Brawler feat. They still won't count as monk weapons though.

[Man_Over_Game]

First of all, *kensei

By RAW you can't pick an improvised weapon as a kensei weapon. I might consider allowing a particular improvised weapon to be chosen, but just allowing all improvised weapons to qualify goes against the subclass's whole point.

You can also get proficiency with improvised weapons by taking the Tavern Brawler feat. They still won't count as monk weapons though.

Just to complicate things:

"In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.

An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet."

So technically, Improvised Weapons, as a whole, cannot be chosen as a Kensei Weapon, but Clubs, Darts, Quarterstaves can, and you can use improvised versions of those weapons with your Kensei benefits.

But you get too many choices with Kensei. After choosing using Longswords, Longbows, and Throwing Axes, there's not much else you really need to be able to use as a Kensei, so I'm all for it. It's still limited in damage (to your Martial Arts die or 1d4), and it's still limited in range (out to 20 feet). In any scenario, it's worse than the three examples I gave you (even Throwing Axes deal slashing and are Light, both features unlikely to have with Improvised Weapons).

[Millstone85]

After choosing using Longswords, Longbows, and Throwing Axes, there's not much else you really need to be able to use as a Kensei, so I'm all for it.Surely you mean longswords, longbows and whips?

[Man_Over_Game]

Surely you mean longswords, longbows and whips?

Maybe. Throwing Axes would allow you to have a 20ft ranged attack, twice in the same turn. It gets less sustainable with the action economy once Extra Attack is available, but it's a lot of fun until then.

[strangebloke]

Surely you mean longswords, longbows and whips?

Whips
Longswords
Longbows
Throwing Axes
...

Plenty of others.

But yeah, otherwise Man_Over_Game has the right of it.

[Millstone85]

A while back, I asked my DM if I could take "point and pommel" as my fourth kensei weapon.

This way, I could have my longsword deal my choice of slashing, piercing or crushing damage, while still having all the features of a kensei weapon.

We will talk about it again when the 11th level is reached.

[Max_Killjoy]

The ability to pick up random objects and use them as weapons would be very fitting for certain sorts of characters / concepts that would work well with the Kensei's mechanical bits.

[Sparky McDibben]

Is this some John Wick nonsense where they want to be proficient with pencils? Because...sign me up, brother.

[strangebloke]

Is this some John Wick nonsense where they want to be proficient with pencils? Because...sign me up, brother.

Actually, there's nothing stopping you from using a pencil as an improvised 'dart' right now as-is.

The Kensei just lets you deal 1d10 + 5 +1d6 damage with that pencil when you throw it across the room at someone.

Although realistically, to one-shot someone with a pencil, you probably want at most 6 kensei levels (so that the pencil is magical) and then go into rogue (assassin) for sneak attack.

2d6 + 5 + 12d6 sneak attack! With a pencil! From across the room!

[Lupine]

Actually, there's nothing stopping you from using a pencil as an improvised 'dart' right now as-is.

The Kensei just lets you deal 1d10 + 5 +1d6 damage with that pencil when you throw it across the room at someone.

Although realistically, to one-shot someone with a pencil, you probably want at most 6 kensei levels (so that the pencil is magical) and then go into rogue (assassin) for sneak attack.

2d6 + 5 + 12d6 sneak attack! With a pencil! From across the room!

Now I need to play a rogue monk....

[Man_Over_Game]

Odd question:

I can use Magic Stone to fire from a Sling to make a Rogue's Sneak Attack bonus, but using the magic damage calculations from Magic Stone. (This is because the Sneak Attack requires you to use a Ranged Weapon, which a Sling is, to fire the Magic Stone, which allows you to use a Sling to attack with it).

How does Kensei fit in to this? Do I need to have the Sling be my Kensei Weapon, or the Stone? Can I enhance the damage? So many questions...

[strangebloke]

Odd question:

I can use Magic Stone to fire from a Sling to make a Rogue's Sneak Attack bonus, but using the magic damage calculations from Magic Stone. (This is because the Sneak Attack requires you to use a Ranged Weapon, which a Sling is, to fire the Magic Stone, which allows you to use a Sling to attack with it).

How does Kensei fit in to this? Do I need to have the Sling be my Kensei Weapon, or the Stone? Can I enhance the damage? So many questions...

I think it works like this:

Rogue needs to make attack with finesse weapon
all monk weapons are finesse weapons
Kensei turns any non-heavy non-special weapon into a finesse weapon
Kensei allows you to turn any non-heavy, non-special weapon into a weapon useable for sneak attack

[Man_Over_Game]

I think it works like this:

Rogue needs to make attack with finesse weapon
all monk weapons are finesse weapons
Kensei turns any non-heavy non-special weapon into a finesse weapon
Kensei allows you to turn any non-heavy, non-special weapon into a weapon useable for sneak attack


Not quite, though. Just because Monks can use Dexterity for their attacks does not mean that those weapons gain the Finesse trait.

If that was intended, they could have just as easily said "These weapons are Monk Weapons, and your Monk Weapons are treated as having the Finesse trait", which would accomplish the same thing but be compatible with Rogue's Sneak Attack.

They didn't do that, so they likely wanted to keep the Monk Weapons and Sneak Attack features separate. Likely in order to cut down on early game burst damage (which both Rogue and Monk have a lot of).

[strangebloke]

Not quite, though. Just because Monks can use Dexterity for their attacks does not mean that those weapons gain the Finesse trait.

If that was intended, they could have just as easily said "These weapons are Monk Weapons, and your Monk Weapons are treated as having the Finesse trait", which would accomplish the same thing but be compatible with Rogue's Sneak Attack.

They didn't do that, so they likely wanted to keep the Monk Weapons and Sneak Attack features separate. Likely in order to cut down on early game burst damage (which both Rogue and Monk have a lot of).

Ah, right. This was what I remembered, but when I checked it a moment ago the text did actually say "finesse." S'what I get for relying on internet sources.

[Tanarii]

After choosing using Longswords, Longbows, and Throwing Axes, there's not much else you really need to be able to use as a Kensei, so I'm all for it. dart is a okay pick. It doesn't normally get Monk damage since it's not a simple melee weapon, so it's a damage increase. And you can combine it with Kensei's shot.

[Hytheter]

dart is a okay pick. It doesn't normally get Monk damage since it's not a simple melee weapon, so it's a damage increase. And you can combine it with Kensei's shot.

What does a dart offer over a longbow though?

[Crgaston]

What does a dart offer over a longbow though?

You can’t use a pencil as an improvised longbow.

[Man_Over_Game]

What does a dart offer over a longbow though?

Strength-based attacking (useful for a Barbarian dip, since you're forced to take at least one ranged weapon as Kensei).
One-handed ranged attack (useful for shields, not applicable unless you want to ignore the Monk's mobility features).

[Tanarii]

What does a dart offer over a longbow though?
Relatively easy to conceal.