Tenser's Transformation as Additional Magical Secret?

[Quietus]

I am doing a little more theorycrafting on a Palabard I'm looking to play - and thinking forward, way forward, to level 12. By that point, I will be Paladin 2, Bard 10. If I understand everything correctly, I should at that point be able to steal a sixth level spell, as I'll have two slots for those spells. I intend to play as a frontliner, and I'm thinking that Tenser's Transformation seems like a really good spell to pick up to help with that, is there anything I'm missing? Some errata saying I can't steal spells if I can't naturally learn Bard spells of that level, but have higher spell slots due to multiclassing? Or some interaction that makes it a bad pick overall? It seems to me like rolling with Str/Dex/Con/Cha proficiency, inherent advantage on all attacks, and 1d8+2d12 force +5 with the option for flourishes and smites... might be a little bit good. Even if it's a concentration spell with a duration of 10 minutes.

[Snowbluff]

By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two Spells from any class, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip.

Seems like the level of spell is bard on your bard level, not your multiclass spell slot level.

[OverLordOcelot]

You can't take Tensor's transformation with the 10th level magical secrets, because you have to pick a spell of a level you can cast, and you can't cast any sixth level spells. You can cast fifth level bard spells, and first level paladin spells, but no sixth level even though you have a slot. You would have to wait until 14th level bard to get that as a magical secret.

Side note: you only have one sixth level spell slot at caster level 11 (10 bard plus one half of 2 paladin). The 'you get 2 slots when you get a new level of spells' bit stops at 7th level (4th level spells).

[Quietus]

Ah, that's what I was missing. Thank you both, I'm AFB at the moment and thought I must be missing something!

.... So at level 14, is it still a possibly valuable pick? I honestly can't imagine getting any character to level 16 overall, but I'm curious now. Particularly since as a Swords bard I'll be able to drop a Flourish every turn on top of the rest.

[Vulsutyr]

Can magical secrets be retrained for non-bard spells? If so OP need not wait till level 14 to get it, just 11

[Quietus]

Can magical secrets be retrained for non-bard spells? If so OP need not wait till level 14 to get it, just 11

That one was clarified in a Sage Advice - when retraining, you can only ever give up a spell to learn a Bard spell. Even if it's a Magical Secrets spell. And I can't count on an understanding DM, because this will be for AL. :smalltongue:

[Rukelnikov]

Ah, that's what I was missing. Thank you both, I'm AFB at the moment and thought I must be missing something!

.... So at level 14, is it still a possibly valuable pick? I honestly can't imagine getting any character to level 16 overall, but I'm curious now. Particularly since as a Swords bard I'll be able to drop a Flourish every turn on top of the rest.

If you already have Find Greater Steed, its 100% worth it, if you cast the spell while mounting it, and then let your steed to ac on its own, TT is doubling as a powerful summon spell. Even if you don't have it (which you should :P), its still a pretty impressive damage boost, moreso if you dual weild.

[Quietus]

If you already have Find Greater Steed, its 100% worth it, if you cast the spell while mounting it, and then let your steed to ac on its own, TT is doubling as a powerful summon spell. Even if you don't have it (which you should :P), its still a pretty impressive damage boost, moreso if you dual weild.

Oh no, that's... that's amazing. Sharing TT with a sabre toothed tiger mount would be incredible.

[Rukelnikov]

Oh no, that's... that's amazing. Sharing TT with a sabre toothed tiger mount would be incredible.

:smallwink: Those or Rhynoceros are the best suited ones for TT IMO.

[Aquillion]

If you already have Find Greater Steed, its 100% worth it, if you cast the spell while mounting it, and then let your steed to ac on its own, TT is doubling as a powerful summon spell. Even if you don't have it (which you should :P), its still a pretty impressive damage boost, moreso if you dual weild.Do note that a lot of TT's effects won't work for steeds:

1. The advantage only applies to weapons.

2. The weapon / armor proficiencies won't let a Griffon wear / wield something.

3. Most importantly, the second attack is incompatible with multiattack ("You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks"), which the best combat steeds have. You can choose one that doesn't have it, but it's sort of a solution looking for a problem at that point, and they'll be even weaker when not buffed.

The extra damage is a special case - technically I believe Sage Advice says that a "weapon attack roll" covers unarmed attacks. But many DMs won't accept that, so you might want to clear it with them first. (The advantage specifies "attack rolls you make with simple and martial" weapons, so it definitely doesn't apply to a Griffon.)

It's not terrible - they get 50 HP, proficiency in two saves, and maybe the bonus damage. And the less combat-focused steeds can make up for not having multiattack. But it's not as broken as it looks at first glance, especially given that you don't get do it until level 14 (when, even with those buffs, your mount isn't going to be a huge combat threat.)

I mean if your DM lets your Saber-Toothed Tiger hold a sword in its mouth or something, that changes everything.

[Quietus]

I mean if your DM lets your Saber-Toothed Tiger hold a sword in its mouth or something, that changes everything.

I mean... if Sif could do it...

[Rukelnikov]

Saber tooth tiger's claw and bite, rhino's Gore, and most every beasts' attacks are listed as weapon attacks, RAW they add the damage.

Also creatures without multiattack are balanced around having a single attack, like the rhino, which makes a single 4d8+5 attack, so going for them is not gimping yourself when TT is not up.

The advantage on attacks doesn't apply, and the proficiencies won't be of much use unless you give your mount barding, which is a good idea after all.

[dragoeniex]

You actually won't be able to get Tenser's by RAW until Bard lv 14. As per Magical Secrets ability:

"At 10th level, choose two spells from any classes, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip."

As per the Bard table, you're only able to cast up to lv 5 spells until you hit lv 11 Bard. So outside of DM permission (and you could ask), you'll have to sit on this until you hit Bard 14.

Otherwise, you could do dumb things like Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 11 and get Wish.


Edit: Welp. Late reply. Carry on, haha.

[Snowbluff]

3. Most importantly, the second attack is incompatible with multiattack ("You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks"), which the best combat steeds have. You can choose one that doesn't have it, but it's sort of a solution looking for a problem at that point, and they'll be even weaker when not buffed. If we're being consistent with the level of pedantry, Multiattack is NOT a feature. However, it's an action, so I don't think it's necessarily the attack action.


1. The advantage only applies to weapons.

The extra damage is a special case - technically I believe Sage Advice says that a "weapon attack roll" covers unarmed attacks. But many DMs won't accept that, so you might want to clear it with them first. (The advantage specifies "attack rolls you make with simple and martial" weapons, so it definitely doesn't apply to a Griffon.)

The advantage doesn't apply, but natural weapons are WEAPON ATTACKS in 5e, and this is the bonus TT grants. The bonus damage definitely applies.

[strangebloke]

The question is, can you defer picking secrets until you get to level 13?

...not without bullying your DM, probably.

[Aquillion]

Yeah, not by RAW. And Bards are already a very powerful class in 5e, so few DMs are inclined to houserule in ways that make them stronger.

In my experience, on level up, most DMs will let you swap Magical Secrets for stuff you could have taken when you first learned it (because that houserule doesn't really add much power and keeps players from getting stuck with a Magical Secret they're not enjoying), but anything that lets you put a level 4+ spell in the level 3 Additional Magical Secrets slot would be a much harder sell, since you're expanding the range of possible spell secrets and making Lore Bards, already the strongest subclass of an already-strong class, even stronger.

[Degwerks]

Just take Find Greater Steed and Holy Weapon for your 10th level magical secrets for now

[darknite]

I've got a College of Swords Bard who took TT as one of their 14th level Magical Secrets. He's got a Sword of Speed so getting 3 attacks a round with the bonus 4d10 force damage along with the other bennies of TT is pretty sweet for boss battles.

[Vulsutyr]

A tiger is not unarmed, it has natural weapons, which are weapons. It’s shouldn’t be confusing if you make that clear to the DM.

[Damon_Tor]

Most importantly, the second attack is incompatible with multiattack ("You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks"), which the best combat steeds have. You can choose one that doesn't have it, but it's sort of a solution looking for a problem at that point, and they'll be even weaker when not buffed.

A rhinoceros will deal 8d8+4d12+10 damage in a round with Tensers. A Sabre-Toothed Tiger will deal 4d6+1d10+6d12+15. In addition to whatever you're throwing around yourself. You aren't gimping yourself by any means by taking mounts without multiattack when you do this.