Variant: Casting with a Cost

[tedcahill2]

Is there a variant, official or otherwise, that either increases or removes spells slots, and adds a cost to casting to keep players from doing it constantly?

I don't mean a skill check that you can just pump to never fail, I mean something that will have a negative impact on you either randomly or at some predictable point.

[Saintheart]

There's Reserves of Strength which allows you to boost your CL at the cost of being stunned - and if you're immune to stun, you take up to 5d6 of damage.

Most Exalted spells out of BoED come with a sacrifice of ability damage of one kind or another to cast them.

[zlefin]

While they really weren't designed for use with regular casting, some of the casting tradition drawbacks in the spherecasting system could be adapted for that easily.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/drawbacks/


one can easily homebrew systems with other costs as well, but I'm not aware of any that have been tested and verified to work well; and most would be similar to at lesat one of the spherecasting drawbacks anyways, so better to just adapt those I'd think.

[Andreaz]

Something like an ATB might work as well. Each spell level costs points, you fill up per round less than what your best spells cost, but more than your low spells cost...stuff like that.

[Sereg]

I use a variation of spell points where at 3/4 sp, you are at -1 to all DCs and rolls, -2 at 1/2, at 1/4, you're at -3 and fatigued, bypassing any immunity and at 0, you're at -4 and exhausted, also bypassing immunity.

[Jack_Simth]

Is there a variant, official or otherwise, that either increases or removes spells slots, and adds a cost to casting to keep players from doing it constantly?

I don't mean a skill check that you can just pump to never fail, I mean something that will have a negative impact on you either randomly or at some predictable point.

There is a catch-22 with giving magic a cost: If it is "too low" then there is no point in having the cost. If it is "too high" then nobody plays a spellcaster, and you may as well have banned it.

Meanwhile, the game assumes magic. Many critters will require "day after" spells - stone to flesh, Restoration, neutralize poison, remove curse, and so on. Others mostly require specific effects- incorporeal critters, for instance, MUST be slayed by magic.

When you change one aspect of the system, you will very quickly find you need to change several others as well... and those changes tend to cascade a while. It's more work than you might think.

[pabelfly]

What do you mean by "casting with a cost"? Like, psionic characters have a set PP limit, can pick whatever spells they want to use with whatever PP, they have left (cost changing depending on the spell and whatever you do to improve it) and they lose their focus and whatever goodies they have with that if they reach zero PP.

[ezekielraiden]

You could take Pathfinder's alternate "esoteric material component (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/esoteric-material-components/)" rules and make them mandatory, while removing spell slots per day.

[tedcahill2]

What do you mean by "casting with a cost"? Like, psionic characters have a set PP limit, can pick whatever spells they want to use with whatever PP, they have left (cost changing depending on the spell and whatever you do to improve it) and they lose their focus and whatever goodies they have with that if they reach zero PP.

I really love psionics, and the power point system built into it. I really wish they used a similar system for the other casters. I could pretty easily switch to a spell point system, but that only serves as a half measure, as spells automatically scale with level and don't have the same augments built into them that powers do. It's a simple, but much less interesting, way to cast spells.

I never liked the idea that a caster just runs out of magic. The lore never worked for me, a wizard "forgetting" their spells or a sorcerer exhausting his magic, even though he's mechanically fine.

[tedcahill2]

You could take Pathfinder's alternate "esoteric material component (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/esoteric-material-components/)" rules and make them mandatory, while removing spell slots per day.

This is pretty cool, but I want something that will cost them personally. I see this as being either a non-issue, because they have plenty of gold, or them negotiating their material components out of the group gold, in addition to their share.

[Boci]

There is a catch-22 with giving magic a cost: If it is "too low" then there is no point in having the cost. If it is "too high" then nobody plays a spellcaster, and you may as well have banned it.

Isn't that a delicate balancing act, rather than a catch-22, which required you to have A to get B, but you can't get A without first having B?

[pabelfly]

I never liked the idea that a caster just runs out of magic. The lore never worked for me, a wizard "forgetting" their spells or a sorcerer exhausting his magic, even though he's mechanically fine.

I didn't think wizards forgot spells so much as prepared a set list of spells they think they'll use for the day and used those spells as required.

If you were making your own casting mechanics for 3.5, what sort of idea would you run with?

[Jack_Simth]

Isn't that a delicate balancing act, rather than a catch-22, which required you to have A to get B, but you can't get A without first having B?

Sort of. It'll be a different point for every player, which means you can't approach it from a system wide perspective. You're also going to be lucky if you can get agreement at your local table for where the balance point should be.

[ShurikVch]

This idea reminded me about the Call of Cthulhu d20: vanilla hero (Investigator) have no casting-per-day limit, but there is a catch: almost all spells there are cost some amount of Sanity
Sanity is very important to the CoC characters: they spending it not just to spellcasting, but also to learning forbidden knowledge and interacting with disturbing things
Sanity damage is pretty difficult to restore: pretty much the only way to regain it is DC 20 check on Psychoanalysis skill, which allow to regain Sanity by 1 point per week! (And bad fumble may just further aggravate the Sanity damage; also, you can't use Psychoanalysis on yourself)
Moreover, ranks in Cthulhu Mythos skill (which you gain automatically by reading forbidden tomes and interacting with otherworldly creatures) are count as permanent penalty to your Sanity number
Oh, and if you lose too much Sanity too fast - regardless of the total number which you still have - you may just get temporary insanity

Handful of spells which are, actually, lacking the usual Sanity cost - instead causing either Ability Damage, or Ability Drain (CoC d20 have no analogue to the Restoration spell line, so drain is pretty much permanent)

The Exaltation spell - from the World of Cthulhu d20 conversion - gives (1d6 + 1/level) temporary Sanity points, and costs 2 Wisdom damage, but its casting time is 5 rounds - thus, may be not that useful in combat...

[tedcahill2]

I didn't think wizards forgot spells so much as prepared a set list of spells they think they'll use for the day and used those spells as required.

If you were making your own casting mechanics for 3.5, what sort of idea would you run with?

If I'm understanding you correctly this is 100% wrong with how prepared casters work. I don't just prepare a spell list and then cast freely from it. I prepare the exact spells I can cast, meaning if I want to cast two fireballs, I need to prepare fireball in two of my spell slots.

My ideal casting mechanics would be something that doesn't limit the frequency of which someone can cast a spell. It would provide some sort of penalty that would make a wizard think twice about using spells unnecessarily. Like if you have a rogue with open lock and a sorcerer with knock, I want a system that encourages the rogue to be the first choice to open the lock. Instead the sorcerer does it then wants to take a nap.

[Climowitz]

Im working on something similar to what you ask. First I have different kinds of magic, Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Soulcasting and Pact magic.
Arcane casting requires that caster gather arcane energy to cast, amount given by caster level and casting attribute, higher spell higher cost. Divine energy enforces cooldown as they gain levels lower spells lower their cooldowns eventually reaching 0. Psionic energy works kind of the same, since power points replenish really slow but replenish. Pact magic causes corruption which adds some minor spell failure and when 100% is acquired you manifest the vestige that grants you the magic power. Soul casting makes you link spells on your item slots, and work like magic items either granting a passive bonus or an at will spell like ability, multiple shaping is gained throw levels and the kind of spells or school is somehow tied with item slots effects, so one cannot shape any spell on any slot.

I know this is too vague but if it suits your needs in any way I can share with you my notes on limits and numbers.

[pabelfly]

If I'm understanding you correctly this is 100% wrong with how prepared casters work. I don't just prepare a spell list and then cast freely from it. I prepare the exact spells I can cast, meaning if I want to cast two fireballs, I need to prepare fireball in two of my spell slots.

This was what I meant. Should have made myself more clear with what I was posting.

[Zaq]

Maybe use Body Fuel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#bodyFuel) as inspiration?

Admittedly, I’ve never seen anyone actually take Body Fuel just because the cost is so high, so you may need to tweak it depending on your ideal balance point, but taking ability burn (which, to my knowledge, nothing—aside from maybe wish or equivalent, I haven’t checked—lets you recover without rest) to recharge your casting mojo is certainly in line with what you’re describing.