A question on the Shield Spell and somewhat of Counterspell.

[Misterwhisper]

Due to the way that in the rules it takes to identify a spell being cast, and the hassle it has caused now, it brought up a question about the spell Shield.


Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are
hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell


How are you supposed to know if you are being targeted?

The enemy is casting a spell.
Ok assuming they are not a sorcerer using subtle spell, that is obvious.
It would take a reaction to identify the spell being cast, but lets assume that someone else identified it and called it out.

You can't tell who is being targeted.

If an enemy casts Scorching Ray, you can't tell who they are aiming at before hand, same with all spells, right?

If someone identifies a spell do they all of a sudden get to know who the spell is aimed at?

Say the enemy is casting a spell, and someone identifies it as Wall of Fire.
Do they get to know exactly where they are planning to place it too?

To the counterspell part.

Say that the enemy is about to cast a spell.
Someone identifies it as a highly upcast Scorching Ray, the enemy is targeting the cleric, but does not know that the cleric is actually immune to fire because they are a forge cleric.
If the identifier can tell that the big spell is being aimed at someone it won't even effect that is some very valuable information, if it is just "they are casting Scorching ray." that is different.

[Puh Laden]

I haven't DM'd with many enemy spellcasters (mostly because I prefer to write most of the stats I want to use on one sheet of paper so I only have to look up one complicated monster at a time). In practical terms, I'd probably let them use their reaction as I was rolling. Asking if anyone's going to counterspell slows the game down too much in my opinion (in theory, haven't actually tried).

For magic missile at least, I'd probably at least describe the attack using the information that is obvious to the players. The missiles of magic missile glow. I'd tell a player that a glowing blob of magic is streaking toward them and that should be enough information for a semi-experienced player (or spellcaster) that they're being targeted by magic missile without them having to formally identify the spell.

[darknite]

I assume you mean the OPTIONAL rule of using a reaction to identify what spell is being cast as per Xanathar's? My simple solution is to not use that stupid rule. You don't make a character use an action and a skill check to know what an NPC is saying to them, after all. A spell is akin to a language and wizards spend their life time mastering that language. I would agree that a skill check would be appropriate, with simpler spells being easier to identify than advanced ones, but there's no discernible reason to require the use of a reaction. It just seems like a lazy Counterspell nerf to me.

[Sachabot]

I just always figured you threw up Shield as a reaction to the magic missiles flying at your face, rather than as a reaction to someone chanting and waving.

Counterspell I think of as the opposite: you see someone chanting and waving and you act to disrupt their connection to the Weave or what-have-you. So it’s not a specific counter, but a general one. No identification necessary.

[Man_Over_Game]

Before even considering targeting, consider the fact that Shield is applicable "When you are hit", and then can continue to increase your AC, presumably to prevent being hit. Which already happened, or you couldn't cast the spell.

Either you're already hit, when improving your AC would do nothing
-OR-
You haven't been hit, and you can't cast Shield.

The only way to "Be hit" and still use Shield to Not Be Hit is if you are able to "retcon" the hit from happening in the first place.

Shield has the ability to rewind time. Try not to think about it much more past that.

[Pex]

Don't sweat it too much. The purpose of Shield is to give the spellcaster a means to protect himself, and the designers threw players a bone by letting them do it without worry of wasting a spell slot. In game mechanics terms you know you are turning a hit into a miss. In gameworld terms the spellcaster sees the enemy make his attack that will strike him, but at the last moment does magic hocus pocus that deflects the blow. It's a moment of awesomeness that makes a spellcaster feel like a spellcaster and confounds the evil bad guy.

Magic Missile is an iconic magical zap spell, the epitome of a spellcaster doing magic against his opponent. It's fitting that only a spellcaster has a defense against it turning an autohit into an automiss. When it comes to Magic Missile and Shield, this is the one case where "it's magic" is an appropriate answer to why something works the way it does.

[Misterwhisper]

Don't sweat it too much. The purpose of Shield is to give the spellcaster a means to protect himself, and the designers threw players a bone by letting them do it without worry of wasting a spell slot. In game mechanics terms you know you are turning a hit into a miss. In gameworld terms the spellcaster sees the enemy make his attack that will strike him, but at the last moment does magic hocus pocus that deflects the blow. It's a moment of awesomeness that makes a spellcaster feel like a spellcaster and confounds the evil bad guy.

Magic Missile is an iconic magical zap spell, the epitome of a spellcaster doing magic against his opponent. It's fitting that only a spellcaster has a defense against it turning an autohit into an automiss. When it comes to Magic Missile and Shield, this is the one case where "it's magic" is an appropriate answer to why something works the way it does.

The issue is the precedence it might set is my problem.

People could try to cite the Shield spell as showing that you can tell when you are targeted by a spell not just when it has an effect, to try to finagle their way into using that logic for other spells.
Or
People could try to argue they could change targets because the shield spell interrupts the process of casting because it happens when the spell is targeted not finished, or they could just stop casting at that point and save the spell.

ex.

Player: I ready my action to move behind this wall if I am targeted by a ranged attack.
DM: You can't detect if you are targeted or not until the attack happens.
Player: Shield spell says I can.

or


DM: Enemy casts lightning bolt
PC: Is he hitting our group or my illusory dragon?
DM: You don't know, you can't tell where he is putting it.
PC: Shield says you can detect when targeted.

[Man_Over_Game]

The issue is the precedence it might set is my problem.

People could try to cite the Shield spell as showing that you can tell when you are targeted by a spell not just when it has an effect, to try to finagle their way into using that logic for other spells.
Or
People could try to argue they could change targets because the shield spell interrupts the process of casting because it happens when the spell is targeted not finished, or they could just stop casting at that point and save the spell.

ex.

Player: I ready my action to move behind this wall if I am targeted by a ranged attack.
DM: You can't detect if you are targeted or not until the attack happens.
Player: Shield spell says I can.

or


DM: Enemy casts lightning bolt
PC: Is he hitting our group or my illusory dragon?
DM: You don't know, you can't tell where he is putting it.
PC: Shield says you can detect when targeted.

Sure, so just obey how the "hit" portion works.

That is, Shield doesn't do anything until the "hit" has already resolved. Magic Missile has already been cast by the time you cast Shield.

[Misterwhisper]

Sure, so just obey how the "hit" portion works.

That is, Shield doesn't do anything until the "hit" has already resolved. Magic Missile has already been cast by the time you cast Shield.

Magic Missile is not an attack, it says "hit by an attack"

It also does not say "hit by a magic missile", it says "targeted by the magic missile spell"

I think this is another situation where they worded something VERY badly.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I thought about these things a lot (Shield & Absorb Elements) when posting a recent thread and reading the answers regarding Counterspell and how it works, since I was wondering how to resolve a wizard duel.

Ultimately, it didn't really seem to make a whole lot of sense, when viewing all three spells in tandem and considering how reactions generally work. I think you just have to stop thinking about it too hard and accept that it's a game. With magic. And balancing issues which must be considered. Each spell's reaction works slightly differently, and is more or less spelled out in the text (or in Xanathar's). So don't hurt your brain (like I did). Just roll with the RAW and the weird rule, and make each spell do what the Devs wanted.

[Rukelnikov]

The only way to "Be hit" and still use Shield to Not Be Hit is if you are able to "retcon" the hit from happening in the first place.

Shield has the ability to rewind time. Try not to think about it much more past that.



Don't sweat it too much. The purpose of Shield is to give the spellcaster a means to protect himself, and the designers threw players a bone by letting them do it without worry of wasting a spell slot. In game mechanics terms you know you are turning a hit into a miss. In gameworld terms the spellcaster sees the enemy make his attack that will strike him, but at the last moment does magic hocus pocus that deflects the blow.

This. Shield doesn't rewind time, the hit only happened system wise, it never got to happen in the story because it was thwarted by Shield.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Due to the way that in the rules it takes to identify a spell being cast, and the hassle it has caused now, it brought up a question about the spell Shield.


Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are
hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell


How are you supposed to know if you are being targeted?

The enemy is casting a spell.
Ok assuming they are not a sorcerer using subtle spell, that is obvious.
It would take a reaction to identify the spell being cast, but lets assume that someone else identified it and called it out.

You can't tell who is being targeted.

If an enemy casts Scorching Ray, you can't tell who they are aiming at before hand, same with all spells, right?

If someone identifies a spell do they all of a sudden get to know who the spell is aimed at?

Say the enemy is casting a spell, and someone identifies it as Wall of Fire.
Do they get to know exactly where they are planning to place it too?

To the counterspell part.

Say that the enemy is about to cast a spell.
Someone identifies it as a highly upcast Scorching Ray, the enemy is targeting the cleric, but does not know that the cleric is actually immune to fire because they are a forge cleric.
If the identifier can tell that the big spell is being aimed at someone it won't even effect that is some very valuable information, if it is just "they are casting Scorching ray." that is different.

You’ve over complicated things.

To answer the question in bold is simple. Because you see magical darts flying unerringly toward you.

You don’t need to know who he was planning on attacking while he was casting, you just have to see where the resulting attack is headed.

Same as when someone casts Ray of Frost, shoots an arrow / bolt at you or swings a weapon at you.

Nor does Shield require knowledge of what is hitting you. Just that an attack would land without the benefit of the spell.

Magic Missile is a bit wonky because it is an attack that does not use an attack roll and skips straight to the damage roll. So Shield calls out a special inclusion for this spell.

[BurgerBeast]

Due to the way that in the rules it takes to identify a spell being cast, and the hassle it has caused now, it brought up a question about the spell Shield.


Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are
hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell

The spell is describing the mechanics to you, the player. It is not describing anything about the narrative or what the character sees/knows.

The “when hit” condition only applies to attacks, as you rightly pointed out. “When targetted by magic missile” is logically equivalent to “when hit by magic missile” because, if it is cast at you, it cannot miss, and you will take damage.

(Why didn’t they write “hit by magic missile”? I’m not sure, but perhaps to avoid confusion over whether magic missile is considered an attack. In any case, it is logically equivalent as demonstrated above.)


How are you supposed to know if you are being targeted?

You (the player) know either when the DM tells you it is cast at you, or when the DM tells you you are hit/you take damage.

The character can’t know.


You can't tell who is being targeted.

The character can’t tell. The spell description tells us how to resolve the situation mechanically. How it is described narratively is up to the DM, but in general should fit the mechanical events and should not go beyond them.


If an enemy casts Scorching Ray, you can't tell who they are aiming at before hand, same with all spells, right?

The characters in the narrative cannot. But you, the player, may know.


If someone identifies a spell do they all of a sudden get to know who the spell is aimed at?

Say the enemy is casting a spell, and someone identifies it as Wall of Fire.
Do they get to know exactly where they are planning to place it too?

No.

To the counterspell part.


Say that the enemy is about to cast a spell.
Someone identifies it as a highly upcast Scorching Ray, the enemy is targeting the cleric, but does not know that the cleric is actually immune to fire because they are a forge cleric.
If the identifier can tell that the big spell is being aimed at someone it won't even effect that is some very valuable information, if it is just "they are casting Scorching ray." that is different.

The characters can not determine the target.