Source of Vermin for Giant Vermin Spell

[pattyp1003]

Hi Everyone.

The following issue came up in a recent D&D 3.5 game:

Where should the vermin for the Giant Vermin spell come from?

Possible Interpretation #1) You must carry the vermin in a jar with you.
Flaw #1) Then they become monstrous next to you and attack your own party as the closest targets. Or you could throw your jar of vermin to someplace else (round one) and the tiny vermin take damage from the throw, and then on a second round you can make them giant.

Possible Interpretation #2) You must do a detect animals first to find vermin targets.
Flaw #2) Then you must spend a spell and two rounds before even starting this spell (3 rounds to cast minimum, assuming your DM even lets you find some vermin)

Possible Interpretation #3) It is just assumed there are vermin (spiders specifically) everywhere, and so it always works)
Flaw #3) This is a poor assumption for Centipedes and Scorpions, but maybe works for spiders. It also must be random if you get Hunting or Web Spinning spiders. Regardless it is also random where the vermin start.

Possible Interpretation #4) There is errata someplace that fixes the spell, but I haven't been able to find it.

I'm sure there are other possible interpretations that I didn't mention above.

Has anyone else run into this during a game? Where do the vermin for the Giant Vermin spell come from?

Thank you.

[Chrion]

At least for Spiders, they are a (costless) material component for spider climb, which means somebody without eschew material compoenents is carrying around a bunch of spiders, which can be used for giant vermin. Not sure about the other vermin types.

[zlefin]

hmmm, it definitely looks like they ismply didn't think the spell through carefully enough;
one concern I'd have with interpretation 1 is that you'd think it would list them as a material component; then again,t hey are the target of the spell, and aren't consumed by it, so I guess material component wouldn't apply.

you wouldn't need to use detect animals per se; you could just visually look for them.

the fact that it requires all target be within 30 feet of each other clearly allows some flexibility in where they appear. it would also seem to require that the targets be actually identified.
the targetting rules require that all targets be seen visually or touched directly.

from a balance perspective; it's tricky and I'd have to think about it. It does have much better scaling than typical summon spells; since the quality of monster improves substantially at higher caster levels. looking at the monster entry, it could go from 2 cr 1 spiders at low level; to 2 cr 11 spiders at clevel 20.
It also has a minutes/level duration rather than rounds, which makes it more feasible to use pre-combat. that should more than compensate for the more limited ability to instruct them.'

using a spot or survival check to locate some would be another way of doing it.

[pattyp1003]

At least for Spiders, they are a (costless) material component for spider climb, which means somebody without eschew material compoenents is carrying around a bunch of spiders, which can be used for giant vermin. Not sure about the other vermin types.

So if the spell caster supplies the vermin, doesn't that either endanger the party members or the vermin:

The vermin become monstrous next to you and attack your own party as the closest targets (the spell says the won't harm the spell caster, but will attack whoever else is near them - which is likely to be party members - orders to attack a specific creature are too complex for the vermin to understand).

Or you could throw your jar of vermin to someplace else (round one) and the tiny vermin take damage from the throw, and then on a second round you can make them giant.

Both of these options seem like serious flaws that would make you not want to use the spell. And its a 4th level spell - spells that are at this level are usually ones you want to cast - not ones that have such large flaws you don't even want to learn them.

[Zaq]

You can totally tell the vermin to attack a specific creature. Telling it to attack a specific creature when it appears doesn’t work. It can’t handle the conditional command, but a straightforward command to attack someone is fine.

[CzarMarcus]

I think the spell designer was assuming the pseudo-science that says you are always within 3 feet of a spider so any given 10 ft square should have a spider. Given that assumption you can just pick squares that are withing 30 feet of each other and the range of your spell caster. The author just decided to augment that and allow centipedes and scorpions, even though those are rarer, it adds some fun options.

[unseenmage]

It's a world without pesticide and largely lacking in hygiene.

Everyone and all their stuff is just constantly crawling with vermin of all kinds.

Nuff said.