Rogue with 18 passive perception

[Lupine]

How do I deal with this? It seems the only way to have secret doors is to make DC20s to find them, which doesn't seem fair to the other players. On the other hand, the party really likes feeling rewarded when they find stuff, and had to think to search for it.

[Shuruke]

Have him notice something then follow up with investigation to know what it is

Example

Panel on floor is i partly raised down the hall
Could be a trap

Or secret trigger for a door in a different room
Or a mimic

[Man_Over_Game]

How do I deal with this? It seems the only way to have secret doors is to make DC20s to find them, which doesn't seem fair to the other players. On the other hand, the party really likes feeling rewarded when they find stuff, and had to think to search for it.

Don't make stuff hidden. Make it obvious that there's a trap or a locked door, with the "hidden" aspect determining how to deal with it.

Maybe the door has no handle, but is instead unlocked via knocking (determined by the picture of a fist on the door).

Maybe the fact that it's a trap is obvious (spike pit), but what the Rogue CAN'T see is that there's an invisible floor path on top of it in a special design (that's in the shape of the temple's icon, or something).

And for any other time, you just give it to them.

Personally, I only use Passive stats for when something is rolled against the player, such as stealth, or spotting the glint of a blade in the crowd. If people just want to spam a Perception check all the time, I won't bother rolling in the first place if there's no time constraint.

[gkathellar]

Maybe try doing what video games do, and put your secret doors in places that require some RPG-thinking to be around in the first place. It’s okay if the player notices things close to them automatically if the party needs to think a bit in order to get close - if anything, it could give them a feeling of contributing to the search.

[stoutstien]

The player took proficiency on perception as an opportunity cost. Don't just slide DCs up because you think the player is getting by to easily.
Do you double damage when you hit a Barbarian? Do you give out fire immunity just because a player prepared fireball?

I understand you want to challenge the party but moving the finish line so to speak is just bad. Just because they found the hidden door doesn't mean they know how to open it or if it actually a hidden trap.

* That not even that high of a PP. Wait until they take the observant feat

[CheddarChampion]

Well as you said OP they clearly like finding things actively.
Ask them if they think it's fun to have you compare two flat numbers in secret and tell them if one was higher than the other. I think the rogue would be fine doing away with passive perception if your description is accurate.

If they agree then try this:

When they encounter an area let each player inspect one thing (walls, floor, ceiling, doors, furniture, etc.) and just the one if appropriate. Or look for something in particular (secret passages, traps, etc.) Tell them not everything will have a secret.

If they want to double up, tell them they can help each other but 3+ pairs of eyes won't add anything. Steer them away from trying again if necessary - if they'll automatically succeed given enough time, make the perception checks about how fast they find it rather than if they find it or not.

The rogue is much more likely to find something and thus would likely be assigned to look for the most important thing. Now it's no longer arbitrary as each member can contribute and the rogue has the best chance of success - validating their character building choices.

If they took the observant feat already, give them advantage on noticing hidden objects. If they didn't already then tell them not to take it as you aren't using passive perception anymore.

[DMThac0]

This type of issue comes up a lot in discussion, it seems that people consider passive Perception to be the equivalent of an "I win" button in regards to hidden information. I have found that there is a way to give the player who focused on being observant credit while also keeping some hidden things hidden in my games.

I'm going to use a simple example:
The character in question is walking down a hallway and on their right is a doorway. The doorway leads to a room, on the wall opposite the door is a hidden door (DC 18), on the floor just inside the door is a hidden trap (DC 16), and under an ornate desk to the right side of the room is a gem (DC 18). In the center of the room is a large book case, parallel to the door the character is standing at, which is about 10ft wide and reaches the ceiling.

We're going to assume the character simply opens the door and scans the room, but does not enter.

---

Approach 1: The DM would describe the room in detail and let the player know that all three of those "hidden" items are in the room. The act of simply scanning the room, while having an 18 passive, is enough to give them all of the details.

Approach 2: The DM would describe what the character can see. In this case the character would miss the hidden door since they cannot see through the book case. The trap would be seen as it is directly in front of the character. The gem could either be omitted because it's hidden too far under the desk, or the DM could point out a glint of light from under the desk to indicate something is there.

---

There's also the fact that, in some cases, being able to see a hidden object does not mean the characters know how to deal with it. A hidden door being seen by an character with a high Perception does not mean they're going to know where the trigger is to open said door. A high perception may warn the character that a trap is present, but that doesn't mean they can disarm it.

Finally, there's the most important part, why not let them have it? They've invested points into this ability, it's that character's specialty, why penalize them? In an extreme case it would be similar to saying that cantips don't scale because casters should have to work harder at managing their spells. Give them the information when it is found, but make sure the information they're getting isn't circumventing things like line of sight or lighting. Dim light/Darkness do impose a penalty to Perception, so take that into account when using passive Perception.

[Naanomi]

Only 18? It isn’t hard for a specially built Inquisitive Rogue or Druid to be rocking 37+ Passive Perception; with a 25-30ish Passive Investigation to go along with it

The trick is... if someone has invested so many character resources into finding thing; making them impossible to find anyways feels pretty disheartening... a tough line to walk sometimes

[Lupine]

Give them the information when it is found, but make sure the information they're getting isn't circumventing things like line of sight or lighting. Dim light/Darkness do impose a penalty to Perception, so take that into account when using passive Perception.

Ok. That makes sense. Make hidden things obscured too, if I want them to have to find it, otherwise, it's an auto-spot.

[No brains]

The player took proficiency on perception as an opportunity cost. Don't just slide DCs up because you think the player is getting by to easily.
Do you double damage when you hit a Barbarian? Do you give out fire immunity just because a player prepared fireball?

I understand you want to challenge the party but moving the finish line so to speak is just bad. Just because they found the hidden door doesn't mean they know how to open it or if it actually a hidden trap.

* That not even that high of a PP. Wait until they take the observant feat

This is what I think. Just let your players be powerful in the ways the chose to be powerful. This player decided to use their class features to get rid of the hassle of finding hidden stuff.

A build choice telegraphs what a player would find fun. If a player chooses options that eliminate a challenge, then maybe they never found that challenge very fun.

This is the worst when people bring stuff meant to 'nerf ranger'. There was this one article on homebrew wilderness survival that reduced playing an outlander ranger to a mere +4 on survival checks. Who should survive better in the wilderness: a person who was raised and trained to survive in their surroundings, or a boi who brought two waterskins?

...Although if you need to pull the DM trick of "I haven't decided what's behind this door, take some time before opening it", design SOME puzzles that use int or cha. The door can be visible, but it's got a Rubik's cube for a handle. Maybe it's got some integrated gargoyle that will open the door if a player asks nicely enough.

[Yakmala]

With standard point buy, a Level 1 Variant Human Rogue with the Observant feat can start with 22 Perception.

As for dealing with it, remember that finding and disarming traps is more than just Perception

Perception (Wisdom) to detect that there's a trap.

Investigation (Intelligence) to figure out what kind of trap it is.

Thieves Tools (Dexterity) to successfully disarm the trap.

So, that's three checks, using three different attributes and three different proficiencies. If the player actually spent the character building resources to be very good at all three aspects, they probably deserve to be able to do the job efficiently.

[Keravath]

In my opinion, in general, encounters and exploration shouldn't depend on what your players do or do not notice.

If you think about things from the character and player perspective, if they find something it is exciting and fun even when you just narrate it for the character that is capable of noticing it. However, NOT finding something is utterly meaningless to the characters/players since they do NOT know it was there to be found in the first place. It doesn't add any plot tension, it doesn't make anything more fun for the players since they do NOT know there was anything to be found.

If a character is willing to invest significant resources in order to be able to notice things and ideally protect their party from the negative effects of traps or other noticeable environmental effects then they should be allowed to shine at those activities. Traps are generally not fun. If you fail to notice it you can take large amounts of damage or worse. If you notice it but fail to disarm it you can take large amounts of damage or worse. Neither of these have any positive consequences. However, narrating the finding and successful disarming of traps by a capable character can be fun, does make the atmosphere feel more dangerous and does make the players more cautious. That is all you are looking for with traps usually anyway.

If you have hidden puzzle pieces ... what is the point of keeping them hidden if the goal is to solve the puzzle? Rolling dice and failing will just mean a lot more time taken rolling dice until they DO find the missing pieces to the puzzle.

Anyway, I have a rogue/warlock character with expertise in both perception and investigation and the observant feat. This gives the character a passive perception of 26 and passive investigation of 27 at their current level. Devils sight gets rid of the perception issues in darkness. In the games I have played, as long as I say where I am looking and what I am investigating, the DM has usually just narrated what I have found if there isn't an external time constraint. As players, we never know whether there was a DC associated with what we find or not.

[patchyman]

Play it straight. If a trap or secret door is hidden, be sure to flag that the player has seen it and that he saw it because he invested in Perception.

Now the interesting part starts: the characters must find the mechanisms to disarm (or bypass the trap) and open the secret door.

[Lunali]

Passive perception is for when the character is actively looking for something but the player is passive. If the player spent their expertise on perception and is taking the time to carefully go over the area, you should let them find the passage. If the character is using passive perception, you should have the player actively roll for it to see if they happened to notice it.

[LudicSavant]

I agree with much of the advice that has been given in this thread.

Play it straight. Stuff within visibility range gets noticed, and let the player know that their Perception is what made them notice it! Complications can interfere (such as LOS obstacles, distractions, illusions, time pressure, etc), and noticing a thing does not necessarily mean that you understand its significance. DO NOT simply scale up the DCs to counteract the investments of the PCs.