Shapechange Question

[Schadenfreuda]

So, if I'm reading Shapechange's description correctly, it grants all extraordinary and supernatural special attacks, abilities, qualities, et c., essentially giving everything the in the statblock. This does not include spell-like abilities, which are their own category.

However, Planetars and Solars have innate spellcasting as if they were clerics. This is listed as a special attack, and does not appear to function like SLAs in any other respect.

Am I reading the spell correctly that these spells are included as special attacks, thus effectively granting anyone with Shapechange access to the entire Cleric spell list? Not to mention effectively granting double one's spells per day? I imagine a DM might rule that you have to wait to actually prepare spells like normal, meaning you'd have to rest for 8 hours in Planetar form (not a problem with Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell), but that you couldn't just whip out spontaneous Miracles and what not in the middle of combat.

On that note, would casting Miracle out of your Planetar slots even count against your own XP total, or would it be like an energy drain effect on the Planetar form?

[Crake]

Spellcasting is not an extraordinary or supernatural special ability, so shapechange does not grant it. Your logic was flawed in that you read the spell as "all special abilities bar SLAs" when it was actually "Su and Ex special abilities".

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Spellcasting is not an extraordinary or supernatural special ability, so shapechange does not grant it. Your logic was flawed in that you read the spell as "all special abilities bar SLAs" when it was actually "Su and Ex special abilities".Spellcasting is [Ex], since it's not in any of the other categories (and it's not a function of one's physical form, so it's not [Na]). If it's not one of the other categories, it defaults to [Ex].

So it's [Ex].

So yes, shapechange does grant it. And since it's a special [Ex] attack, polymorph grants it, too.

[Crake]

Spellcasting is [Ex], since it's not in any of the other categories (and it's not a function of one's physical form, so it's not [Na]). If it's not one of the other categories, it defaults to [Ex].

So it's [Ex].

So yes, shapechange does grant it. And since it's a special [Ex] attack, polymorph grants it, too.

I don't know where you got the idea that if it's not Ex, Su or Sp, it defaults to Ex, because natural abilities says this:


Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't know where you got the idea that if it's not Ex, Su or Sp, it defaults to Ex, because natural abilities says this:I can quote, too:


Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

And shapechange grants [Na] attacks anyway.

[Crake]

I can quote, too:



And shapechange grants [Na] attacks anyway.

No, it grants natural weapons, not the same thing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, it grants natural weapons, not the same thing.And [Na] magic is the best weapon.

[Crake]

And [Na] magic is the best weapon.

Except for the fact that it isn't a natural weapon by the rules definition of the term.

[Eldariel]

Rules Compendium says this about natural abilities:

"NATURAL ABILITIES
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature, such as a bird’s ability to fly. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. They’re rarely identified as natural—that’s assumed—and they rarely take a distinct action to use. A lion uses its claws as an attack, for instance; it doesn’t activate its claws and then attack."

This about Polymorph Subschool:
"The target retains its own alignment and personality, within the limits of the assumed form’s ability scores.
• The target retains its own hit points.
• The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the assumed form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
• The target retains the ability to understand the languages it understands in its natural form. If the assumed form is normally capable of speech, the target retains the ability to speak these languages as well. It can write in the languages it understands, but only if the assumed form is capable of writing in some manner—even a primitive manner, such as drawing in the dirt with a paw.

In all other ways, the target’s normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the assumed form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its natural form, including its class features, even if the assumed form would normally be able to use these class features."


Given Polymorph-line doesn't specify the target doesn't receive natural abilities, they do receive them. It's pretty cut'n'dry. And pretty obvious: if they didn't, how would you get fly speed or whatever? But the thing to remember is that Polymorph is an inclusive ability: unless otherwise stated, you get X. And yes, the PHB Polymorph spells are updated to have the subschool description in Rules Compendium (and PHBII).

Not that it matters, by RAW you do receive spellcasting but that's a bit silly so you can just, y'know, houserule it away (the problem isn't Shapechange; that spell is stupid anyways. The problem is Polymorph and even Alter Self with e.g. MM5 Hobgoblins granting you spellcasting). The rules have problems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508514-Dysfunctional-Rules-IX-1d3-Dysfunctions-from-the-8th-Level-List) and it's best not to pretend they don't exist. Just be aware of them and correct them.

[Crake]

Given Polymorph-line doesn't specify the target doesn't receive natural abilities, they do receive them. It's pretty cut'n'dry. And pretty obvious: if they didn't, how would you get fly speed or whatever? But the thing to remember is that Polymorph is an inclusive ability: unless otherwise stated, you get X. And yes, the PHB Polymorph spells are updated to have the subschool description in Rules Compendium (and PHBII).

Not that it matters, by RAW you do receive spellcasting but that's a bit silly so you can just, y'know, houserule it away (the problem isn't Shapechange; that spell is stupid anyways. The problem is Polymorph and even Alter Self with e.g. MM5 Hobgoblins granting you spellcasting). The rules have problems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508514-Dysfunctional-Rules-IX-1d3-Dysfunctions-from-the-8th-Level-List) and it's best not to pretend they don't exist. Just be aware of them and correct them.

Except that funnily enough the polymorph subschool's rules are almost entirely replaced by the specific rules of the polymorph spell, a fact that is actually mentioned in the polymorph subschool description

[Eldariel]

Except that funnily enough the polymorph subschool's rules are almost entirely replaced by the specific rules of the polymorph spell, a fact that is actually mentioned in the polymorph subschool description

Correct, but where the spell is silent (such as on natural abilities), you use those rules. Though you could argue this line in Alter Self means you explicitly get natural abilities (given natural abilities are defined as the abilities stemming from the physical nature of the creature):
"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind."

[Segev]

Given that it is soellcasting as a cleric, wouldn’t you have to prepare spells at the appropriate time of day before you’d have any prepared and available to cast?

[magic9mushroom]

Special Abilities
Many creatures can use special abilities that aren’t magical.
These abilities are classified as extraordinary or natural.
Some creatures can create magical effects without being
spellcasters. Characters using particular class features can
also create magical effects. These effects come in two types,
spell-like and supernatural.

Rules Compendium p. 118. Seems to support the really-kinda-obvious conclusion that spells aren't considered natural, extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like (the way I think of it is a lot like the tuning fork for galaxies, going Natural - Extraordinary - Supernatural and then splitting into SLA - Spell and PLA - Power). If you really want to go the whole nine yards on RAW over RAMS and claim spellcasting is a "particular class feature", it'd be under SLA or (Su).

Not (Ex).

[Eldariel]

Some MM or another explicitly lists Spellcasting as Ex for some creatures (I wanna say MMIV or MMV Hobgoblins). So it's Ex at least for those and thus you can get it.

[Duke of Urrel]

This is an old, old topic.

Basically, it all depends on how you and the dungeon master want to interpret the rules. If you want the Shapechange spell to give you spellcasting ability, then just classify spellcasting ability as Extraordinary and be done with it. If you don't want the Shapechange spell to give you spellcasting ability, then just classify spellcasting ability as spell-like (the option that to me makes the most sense*), as the rule writers should have done, and be done with it.

I find it interesting that nobody, to my knowledge, has ever tried to make the case that another creature's skill points are "Extraordinary" or that another creature's feats are "Extraordinary" so that you can get them with the Shapechange spell, too. Maybe because these goodies aren't nearly as valuable.

_______________
*Classifying spellcasting ability as a natural ability works all right unless somebody points to the Polymorph Subschool rules and says that by default, all natural abilities are granted by polymorphing ("A spell of the Polymorph subschool changes the subject's form from one shape to another. […] Unless otherwise noted in the spell's description, the subject of a Polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own, except as follows. […] In all other ways, the subject's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the assumed form."), so that spellcasting ability should be granted even by the Polymorph spell if it appears in the target form's stat block as a "special attack." So I would go with classifying spellcasting ability as a spell-like ability.

[SangoProduction]

Spells aren't special abilities (natural, supernatural, extraordinary, or otherwise). They are class features, which aren't governed under those same rules, and can't be polymorphed in to. It even specifies in the stat block that it is spell casting as a cleric.

Spells also aren't spell-like. They are spells.

[Duke of Urrel]

Spells aren't special abilities (natural, supernatural, extraordinary, or otherwise). They are class features, which aren't governed under those same rules, and can't be polymorphed in to. It even specifies in the stat block that it is spell casting as a cleric.

I think I agree with you – mostly. At least, I share your goals. I don't want the Shapechange spell to be even more overpowered than it already is by giving it the power to grant you spellcasting ability.

I only wish the rules stated more clearly that you don't acquire the class features of any creature that you polymorph yourself into, just as I also wish the descriptions of various creatures stated more clearly what is and what is not a class feature. Planetars and solars may cast spells "as clerics," but they have no levels in the cleric class, so this only means that they don't cast spells "as sorcerers," as most creatures do when they cast spells but have no levels in any spellcasting character class. I agree with you that spells are always class features (because, as Urpriest taught us, "Monsters Have Class") and that class features (including spells, skill ranks, and all feats except for "special bonus feats") should not be acquired by polymorphing. However, the Monster Manual doesn't define spells as class features as clearly as I wish it did.

On the contrary, the Monster Manual prefers to confuse us, as the word "spells" often appears, annoyingly, in the statistics block of various monsters as a "special attack." This happens with plantetars, solars, couatls, araneas, and many other creatures. Some polymorph spells do explicitly grant you "extraordinary special attacks," which leads many people to insist that they should grant you spells, too. The appearance of the word "spells" in the "special attacks" line of many creatures in the Monster Manual also weakens the claim that spells ought to be considered a natural ability because they're never identified anywhere as extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. Indeed, spells are never called [Ex], [Sp], or [Su] anywhere, but they are often called "special."

This is why I fall back on my house rule – and that's all it is, a house rule – that spellcasting ability is a spell-like ability "because this makes more sense than anything else." I suppose what "makes sense" is really only a matter of opinion.


Spells also aren't spell-like. They are spells.

I can even agree with this, if what you mean is that spellcasting ability and spell-like ability are not the same thing, which is ... perfectly true. Maybe it would be better for me to say that a spell-like ability, which is the ability to cast a spell with no components, is only a special kind of spellcasting ability. All I am saying is that they may, without breaking any rules, be said to belong to the same category of special abilities.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Spells aren't special abilities (natural, supernatural, extraordinary, or otherwise). They are class features, which aren't governed under those same rules, and can't be polymorphed in to. It even specifies in the stat block that it is spell casting as a cleric.

Spells also aren't spell-like. They are spells.SpellCASTING on the other hand...

Spells aren't abilities in and of themselves, agreed. But the ability to cast them IS. And it's probably [Ex].

[Gusmo]

This is an old, old topic.

Basically, it all depends on how you and the dungeon master want to interpret the rules.

I think this is key. I don't think any new ground is going to be tread on this topic, so the most important thing is for a DM to decide how they want it to work, rather than trying to come pick a side in a discussion that has gone on for years with no consensus.

[SangoProduction]

SpellCASTING on the other hand...

Spells aren't abilities in and of themselves, agreed. But the ability to cast them IS. And it's probably [Ex].

Considering that SpellCASTING isn't anywhere in RAW (neither in classes, or Solar description [on the SRD] )....I don't think you can actually say that with evidence, nor make the distinction between spells, and spellcasting.
Else we probably wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

[JNAProductions]

Also, I think it's safe to say that allowing you to gain the casting of a 20th level Cleric, with the ability to refresh it each and every round... Little excessive.

Hell, even WITHOUT that, Shapechange is still a top-notch 9th level spell.

[Schadenfreuda]

Thanks all. It appears that this is an old topic, and one where the consensus is simply that the rules are terribly written and dysfunctional. My confusion as to whether spells are Ex or Su has not been cleared up, as it seems nobody's has in the last 20 years. They are listed as Special Attacks, right alongside the Planetar's SLAs, so it makes sense to put them generally in the same category, even when they are clearly not the same thing, thus barring them from access through the spell.

Next question then, is there a way to shapeshift in such a way as to acquire SLAs and innate spells? Turning into a Solar for its Wish SLA would be even juicier than Gating one in and commanding it to use that Wish, which the DM can adjudicate as being impossible with their Protective Aura's warding against compulsion.

[ezekielraiden]

Thanks all. It appears that this is an old topic, and one where the consensus is simply that the rules are terribly written and dysfunctional. My confusion as to whether spells are Ex or Su has not been cleared up, as it seems nobody's has in the last 20 years. They are listed as Special Attacks, right alongside the Planetar's SLAs, so it makes sense to put them generally in the same category, even when they are clearly not the same thing, thus barring them from access through the spell.

Yeah, it's come up two or three times in the past few months. Perennial topic. IMO the "correct" reading is that, whatever the "Spells" special attack is, it is not Ex nor is it Su (otherwise it would be labelled as such), and shapechange does not (explicitly) grant those features, regardless of what the polymorph subschool says (since the subschool was intended to reduce the power of polymorph spells). In other words, I believe shapechange should be read as granting all and only those special qualities that have the Ex or Su tags.


Next question then, is there a way to shapeshift in such a way as to acquire SLAs and innate spells? Turning into a Solar for its Wish SLA would be even juicier than Gating one in and commanding it to use that Wish, which the DM can adjudicate as being impossible with their Protective Aura's warding against compulsion.

For SLAs, AFAIK you have to use Planar Shepherd for this--that's the only way I know of that grants unrestricted access to these abilities, and even then it's only to outsiders and elementals associated with your chosen plane. And even then, you'd need to reach Druid level 22 to be able to wildshape into Solars, so it's epic-only. For once WotC managed to not stick its foot straight into its mouth, and managed to avoid giving out more than a single source of increasing your effective druid level beyond your HD, and that's from an item set that's otherwise kinda cruddy so it's not often used. That means the best you can do pre-epic is 21 HD, which is one short of Solars (22 HD). That said, getting your DM to approve Planar Shepherd is hard enough, so if you do find one that permits it, you might as well see if there is some way for you to squeeze out that last little bit. Other than that, though, I know of no way to easily acquire the SLAs of other beings through changing form. There might be some obscure spells, but I suspect they would be keyed only to specific creatures.

And if you are already at epic, epic spellcasting is already orders of magnitude more game-breaking than abuse of shapeshifting to get free SLAs/spells.

That said, in the gonzo epic game I'm currently playing in, I am very much looking forward to being essentially full-time wildshaped as a Solar. The wish is definitely nice, but the 3/day permanency is even better. I'll be able to comfortably generate my own permanent demiplane on the cheap.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As an interesting note, remember that even if polymorph granted [Ex] spellcasting, you still have to rest for 8 hours, followed by an hour of spell-prep in order to cast those spells for arcane casters. Divine casters (such as clerics) only gain their spells at a specific time of day. And psionic manifesters are similar to arcanists, except they only require one round to refill their pp reservoirs after rest (pp recharge strategies notwithstanding).

Though psionic manifesting is explicitly [Ps] (or [Sp] in the case of "magic psionics" monsters, such as those in the MM) anyway, which neatly sidesteps the issue entirely.

[Doctor Awkward]

Spells aren't special abilities (natural, supernatural, extraordinary, or otherwise). They are class features, which aren't governed under those same rules, and can't be polymorphed in to. It even specifies in the stat block that it is spell casting as a cleric.

Spells also aren't spell-like. They are spells.

Spells most certainly are natural abilities when possessed by a creature that has innate spellcasting. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells)

[Crichton]

Next question then, is there a way to shapeshift in such a way as to acquire SLAs and innate spells? Turning into a Solar for its Wish SLA would be even juicier than Gating one in and commanding it to use that Wish, which the DM can adjudicate as being impossible with their Protective Aura's warding against compulsion.



If you can find a way to meet all the requirements and convince your DM to let you, would the Savage Species rituals do the trick? They do grant you all the "physical, natural, extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of the chosen creature"

[SangoProduction]

Spells most certainly are natural abilities when possessed by a creature that has innate spellcasting. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells)

May I ask, not to by fussy, but where's it say it's a natural ability? It seems to be saying, in the first line, that it just casts as a member of a casting class would. The explicit only differences being its ability to substitute somatic components. (And just needing to touch material components. I guess.)

So, if you're going to argue that Spells from a creature is natural, then, due to the only difference being the above, then Spells from casting classes is natural too. This would mean you can polymorph in to your party's second mage, and then gain their spells. (Just looked up Shapechange. Has to be a non-unique creature. So level 20 Human Wizard, which would be rare, but not unique in a few worlds. But regardless, that's a restriction of the spell, not of the logic.)

[magic9mushroom]

For once WotC managed to not stick its foot straight into its mouth, and managed to avoid giving out more than a single source of increasing your effective druid level beyond your HD, and that's from an item set that's otherwise kinda cruddy so it's not often used.

I vaguely recall a Dragon Magazine feat doing that, though I can't seem to find it.


And if you are already at epic, epic spellcasting is already orders of magnitude more game-breaking than abuse of shapeshifting to get free SLAs/spells.

In most cases, yes (it's trivial to fix epic spells - all you need do is make mitigating factors not reduce research costs - but they're broken out of the box and I'm not about to commit Oberoni). SLA Wish and SLA Gate are exceptions, though.

[ezekielraiden]

I vaguely recall a Dragon Magazine feat doing that, though I can't seem to find it.

Yeah, Dragon has just about everything, though no guide I've ever read includes references to such a feat--I imagine, if it existed, it would be notorious at this point. Anything that made Solars a possible wild shape form for even a 20th level Planar Shepherd would be the pièce de résistance of any argument that PShep is the only thing that can take the already WTF-broken Druid and make it completely, utterly insane.


In most cases, yes (it's trivial to fix epic spells - all you need do is make mitigating factors not reduce research costs - but they're broken out of the box and I'm not about to commit Oberoni). SLA Wish and SLA Gate are exceptions, though.

Oh, most certainly. Really, SLAs of any of the truly amazing 9ths are in a similar vein--time stop, for example--since the gap between "abusable 9ths" and "moderately balanced simple epic spells" is pretty thin. But breaking into epic levels on top of already allowing Planar Shepherd is, I guess, "asking for" cheese, if that makes sense.