Creating a Crusader/Master of 9

[Master O'Laughs]

Druid, Sorcerer (looking to become a Dweomerkeeper), and a bow ranger (possibly swift hunter). I see them and see a need for a tank of sorts.

DM loves demons and mentioned they will be prevalent. I was thinking either a Paladin/Fist of Raziel or a Crusader/Hellreaver.

What seems the better fit? I do not want anything too crazy, but want to be able to take a hit and protect the party.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Crusader 4/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 10 for a final build. Always bind Naberius for fast ability healing, so you can use heroic sacrifice as often as you want and effectively never run out of holy fury points.

[Biggus]

Another possibility is Champion of Gwynharwyf, which gets you all the best features of a Paladin of Freedom, plus other cool stuff like Rage and the ability to cast while Raging (maybe see if your DM will let Battle Blessing work of CoG spells for extra goodness). Requires at least one Barbarian level, and two feats (one of which is completely useless) so might be worth taking a level or two of Fighter to get some more.

[Eldariel]

The party already has a Druid for 2 big beefy frontliners. They hardly need another. What I think they need more is a skilly trapfinder (assuming the Ranger isn't going Trap Expert [Dungeonscape]) type that adds divine casting above and beyond that offered by a Druid.

Thus, I suggest Cloistered Cleric summoner (or Cloistered Clericzilla if you wanna get up close and personal). Tons of skills, access to Trapfinding through Find Traps and the Kobold domain (level 6 the latest through Planar Touchstone), access to skill boosting spells (Divine Insight [SC] and Guidance pf the Avatar [Web]), some battlefield control (Ice Slick, Dark Way, Nauseating/Laogzed's Breath on the first 3 levels) and beefy expendable frontliners in summons. If you wanna go Neutral Cleric of e.g. Wee Jas, you could roll in even more frontline with Command Undead and Animate Dead, but that part is strictly optional.

[The Kool]

Right, because the answer is always "be a Cleric, they do it better".

Though in this case, Clerics make decent tanks. I wouldn't recommend the Cloistered variety for a tanky role, however. Another option is Favored Soul... In my current campaign, I've built a Paladin using the FS and he's a better paladin than any paladin I've played before... and only level 4 yet.

As a frontliner, there's something to be said for a barbarian. They can really take a hit, and pull ALL the aggro when they rage in.

Zone control is a great way of keeping anyone from getting past. Classic trip builds like chains and polearms with increased size make this work, but I personally find it a bit dull in play to just triplock enemies. A fun twist is to build an AoO retribution build that doesn't bother with trips.

If you're looking at Crusader and Paladin, you have to at least consider the Ruby Knight Vindicator. Paladin 4 / Crusader 1 / RKV + is the classic entry from this direction, and it's worth a good long look, particularly with the Battle Blessing feat.

[Telonius]

For that particular party makeup, it sounds like a Bardsader build would fit. A little bit of extra skillmonkey-ing and Face duties could round things out nicely. Your Druid most likely isn't going to be doing all that much party buffing, so Inspire Courage can shore things up a bit there. You'd also be the only character with UMD on the class skill list.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I'd add in the Witch Slayer PrC from the Tome of Magic. It gives you Mettle and Slippery Mind (both great abilities) and has an excellent Capstone if your Cha is strong (consider the Ability Focus feat if you use it a lot).

Assuming Tome of Battle is allowed, I'd do the following: Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Witch Slayer 5/5 more Hellreaver levels. I might even replace the first two Crusader levels with Paladin levels for more Cha synergy, if I didn't care much about level 3 maneuvers.

I'd then take feats like Avenging Strike and maybe even Divine Might or Force of Personality. Make Cha a huge thing, adding it to as many things as possible though Paladin levels and feats, and also using it to shut down magic-using enemies.

This feels like a very thematic build to me.
No need for Binder to heal Con damage (it loses BaB!). You can get magical gear for that, or you could spend feats for the Chakra Bind that reduces Con loss.

[Master O'Laughs]

Another possibility is Champion of Gwynharwyf, which gets you all the best features of a Paladin of Freedom, plus other cool stuff like Rage and the ability to cast while Raging (maybe see if your DM will let Battle Blessing work of CoG spells for extra goodness). Requires at least one Barbarian level, and two feats (one of which is completely useless) so might be worth taking a level or two of Fighter to get some more.

Would I just look to swing a big sword and charge things to death with PA and Shock Trooper?

[Eldariel]

Right, because the answer is always "be a Cleric, they do it better".

Though in this case, Clerics make decent tanks...

The thing is though, the party isn't lacking in tanks. It's lacking someone to cure all those conditions Druids have a trouble dealing with (off the top of my head, Druids don't get Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Paralysis - so negative levels, ability drain, curses, blindness and deafness as conditions that are somewhat difficult for Druids to deal with under level 17 where Celestial Charger Unicorn comes on the table), and someone to deal with traps (unless, again, the Ranger goes Trap Expert). You can do both of those really well with a Cleric so it seems like the natural fit (that can also dabble in facing if desired, which is another angle in which the party might need help depending on the Druid's and Sorcerer's skill choices), while also providing extra frontline beef with summons. There's nothing wrong with just summoning things to tank for you instead of tanking personally. Though, again, with animal companion + wild shape, the Druid is a veritable frontline juggernaut already so strictly speaking there's absolutely no shortage of meat here. But extra never hurts and Cleric does that in lieu of everything else the party is lacking.

EDIT: Druid 9 sees you get Panacea, which deals with Blindness and Deafness, but curses, negative levels and ability drain remain somewhat difficult for Druids to remove. Greater Dispel Magic on Druid 11 does eventually handle Curses but that's full 6 levels later than Remove Curse from Cleric. And indeed, I don't think there's a single Druid spell before Summon Monster IX that you can use to deal with the other two - so if there's no Cleric/Pally around, at least get someone with Use Magic Device. There are some items and Druids have ways to prevent said conditions (Death Ward and Sheltered Vitality) but it's hard to always prepare appropriately and once afflicted, you do want some means to be rid of them.

[Falontani]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ddC4rOqt-pWLpMCU7Xr4c34FoaEuONc-b15v2N8m-nA/edit?usp=drivesdk

A build I did a while back for someone else. I would personally change the twf into spiked chain, as it does the same thing better, but the original request was for a twf self healer. However with twf you do heal a bit faster when not using maneuvers. With fewer feats you might be able to break into Hellreaver for some additional fun.

[Master O'Laughs]

What is the main difference between the Crusader/Hellreaver and the Paladin/Crusader/RKV?

Is the RKV simply better?

Is the Fist of Raziel just 1-dimensional so not as good as the others?

Also, the Ranger-player made it sound like he was going for the scout/ranger swift hunter so He would be a skill monkey of sorts.

[Eldariel]

If you're going RKV, I'd suggest Cleric over Pally simply because RKV only advances your casting and Pally casting isn't much to write home about compared to Cleric. The main difference is...well, different class features. RKV is all about maneuvers and turn undead + being a spellcasting divine knight while Hellreaver is purely martial with no spellcasting, but some paladinny abilities. Most of Hellreaver's abilities are replaceable via maneuvers so it mostly comes down to whether you want actual divine spells too or not. Obviously you're better off with than without spells, but either should be fine.'

EDIT: And Fist of Raziel is very good, but again for a Cleric-base rather than a Pally-base. FoR is mostly about advancing casting almost fully and most of the abilities are nice extras rather than the meat of the class. So, FoR is a way to get a full BAB Cleric without Divine Power or company. Typical almost-full-BAB (full -1) Cleric that would effortlessly pass for a Paladin would be Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3-or-5/Fist of Raziel-or-Knight of the Raven 10

[Segev]

Quick chime in for the vitalist as a possibility, if PF Psionics are on the table. The Life Leech archetype allows for shunting negative statuses around, and with a Druid to summon animals as hp batteries and places to dump the statuses, it could do a lot. Vigor over the collective can make the tanks tankier and Natural Healing is very efficient with Medic Powers making t able to be Networked and Collective Healing letting it be redistributed and concentrated.

[Master O'Laughs]

I am really liking the Crusader. The idea of making a deck of cards to draw my powers from really appeals to me. I also do like the idea of avoiding spells.

For races, is Goliath or human considered the best? Would Jotunbrud feat for human be worth it to get access to powerful build?

Is Hellreaver 10 severely gimped? I like the flavor of its lvl 10 ability, but I am guessing the lvl 9 maneuvers from Crusader are better which is why only 5 to 6 levels of Hellreaver are ever mentioned.

Is there a way to hit 9th level manuevers without 13 levels in Crusader? I am trying to avoid a doubling up on Mettle. Would 2 levels of Warblade work?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say anything past Hellreaver 5 is pretty bad. Call to Judgement will rarely ever see use, Divine Retribution is only good for reliably killing a low-HD mook to blind a boss for a round, and everything else is just improvements to existing class features that are already good enough.

I wouldn't worry about getting Mettle twice, the second one isn't until you're 19th level and most of the Crusader levels are for maneuvers/stances anyway.

You'll need a 14-6 ratio of initiator class levels to non-initiator class levels to get 9th level maneuvers by your 20th level. Initiator class levels can be Crusader or any prestige class in ToB. Of those, the only ones that would really be worth taking are Deepstone Sentinel (go Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfEarth) for that) or Eternal Blade (take Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) for that). You could finish your last ten levels with Suel Arcanamach 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8, but not taking the third (and sometimes fourth) level of Suel Arcanamach feels like a waste.

For your race, if you can buy off a level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) you should definitely go with a level-adjusted race or template. Half-Ogre (RoD) would probably be the highest level-adjustment I'd go with, if you want to be large size. Otherwise a Dragonborn Warforged with Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) added after Dragonborn and Adamantine Body + Improved Fortification is probably as tanky as you can get. Go with the heart aspect of Dragonborn and take Entangling Exhalation to debuff opponents and hinder them from moving past you to attack softer targets. I would also include the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) to still have a 30-ft. land speed despite Adamantine body.

[Eldariel]

I am really liking the Crusader. The idea of making a deck of cards to draw my powers from really appeals to me. I also do like the idea of avoiding spells.

For races, is Goliath or human considered the best? Would Jotunbrud feat for human be worth it to get access to powerful build?

Jotunbrud is fine though making it work on a Crusader chassis takes some effort (the only innate maneuvers you have that benefit of it are few Stone Dragon ones). Large races are always fine for melee as well, particularly if LA buyoff is allowed. If you go Human, it's worth looking into Knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) as a free rider for basically all your strikes (you can get the prerequisite Improved Trip without needing Int or Combat Expertise by taking two levels in Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) or Passive Way Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay)). Knockback [Races of Stone] is another strong option for bringing your size modifiers into play. But yeah, being Large or counting as Large is almost never a bad thing for a melee type.


Is Hellreaver 10 severely gimped? I like the flavor of its lvl 10 ability, but I am guessing the lvl 9 maneuvers from Crusader are better which is why only 5 to 6 levels of Hellreaver are ever mentioned.

It isn't the best. And Crusader is really good so there's a good reason to go Crusader 15 or even more.


I'd say anything past Hellreaver 5 is pretty bad. Call to Judgement will rarely ever see use, Divine Retribution is only good for reliably killing a low-HD mook to blind a boss for a round, and everything else is just improvements to existing class features that are already good enough.

I wouldn't worry about getting Mettle twice, the second one isn't until you're 19th level and most of the Crusader levels are for maneuvers/stances anyway.

You'll need a 14-6 ratio of initiator class levels to non-initiator class levels to get 9th level maneuvers by your 20th level. Initiator class levels can be Crusader or any prestige class in ToB. Of those, the only ones that would really be worth taking are Deepstone Sentinel (go Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfEarth) for that) or Eternal Blade (take Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) for that). You could finish your last ten levels with Suel Arcanamach 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8, but not taking the third (and sometimes fourth) level of Suel Arcanamach feels like a waste.

Master of Nine has some neat tricks up its sleeve too (Counter Stance + Dual Stance is a potent combo), though the entry requirements are a bit rough. Ruby Knight Vindicator is likewise excellent and it's even nice without the casting part (which is also incredibly good).

[Master O'Laughs]

Jotunbrud is fine though making it work on a Crusader chassis takes some effort (the only innate maneuvers you have that benefit of it are few Stone Dragon ones). Large races are always fine for melee as well, particularly if LA buyoff is allowed. If you go Human, it's worth looking into Knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) as a free rider for basically all your strikes (you can get the prerequisite Improved Trip without needing Int or Combat Expertise by taking two levels in Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) or Passive Way Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay)). Knockback [Races of Stone] is another strong option for bringing your size modifiers into play. But yeah, being Large or counting as Large is almost never a bad thing for a melee type.



It isn't the best. And Crusader is really good so there's a good reason to go Crusader 15 or even more.



Master of Nine has some neat tricks up its sleeve too (Counter Stance + Dual Stance is a potent combo), though the entry requirements are a bit rough. Ruby Knight Vindicator is likewise excellent and it's even nice without the casting part (which is also incredibly good).

I was thinking of going for it since if I am attempting to trip things, counting as large would be useful.

2 things to note for the session, the campaign will heavily feature Demons. The DM has players use a very heroic stat array of 18 to 13 so stat requirements for feats are not too much of a worry.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to do tripping, I'd go with a Half-Ogre (RoD) and buy off the level adjustment, if you're able to. That gets better reach, higher strength, and natural armor. Being against demons, there are a lot of opponents who could fly or teleport around you or who are too big to trip or who have natural reach and you'll never get to AoO them. Making your character large and using a reach weapon will give you the necessary reach to have a zone of control against larger foes, but it will also give you the height and vertical reach to catch flying enemies indoors.

For a tanky character, especially a Crusader, I'd prefer to go Dragonborn (heart) with Entangling Exhalation. It gives you something to do when you don't have a useful maneuver granted. You can debuff multiple opponents and prevent them from repositioning easily. Plus it only takes one feat, or two if you include Power Surge for +50% duration on that. Dragonborn tends to work best on a Warforged since you get to keep all the immunities that come with being a living construct.


Master of Nine has some neat tricks up its sleeve too (Counter Stance + Dual Stance is a potent combo), though the entry requirements are a bit rough. Ruby Knight Vindicator is likewise excellent and it's even nice without the casting part (which is also incredibly good).

Master of Nine has five feat prerequisites, none of which do anything for the build, on a build that gets zero bonus feats. It also requires knowledge of maneuvers from six different disciplines, Crusader only gets three disciplines so you're either spending three more feats on Martial Study or you're dipping another initiator class and cutting yourself out of 9th level maneuvers.

RKV requires you to worship a specific deity, and would require a dip for turn undead, it doesn't exactly fit in with the build.

[Master O'Laughs]

If you want to do tripping, I'd go with a Half-Ogre (RoD) and buy off the level adjustment, if you're able to. That gets better reach, higher strength, and natural armor. Being against demons, there are a lot of opponents who could fly or teleport around you or who are too big to trip or who have natural reach and you'll never get to AoO them. Making your character large and using a reach weapon will give you the necessary reach to have a zone of control against larger foes, but it will also give you the height and vertical reach to catch flying enemies indoors.

For a tanky character, especially a Crusader, I'd prefer to go Dragonborn (heart) with Entangling Exhalation. It gives you something to do when you don't have a useful maneuver granted. You can debuff multiple opponents and prevent them from repositioning easily. Plus it only takes one feat, or two if you include Power Surge for +50% duration on that. Dragonborn tends to work best on a Warforged since you get to keep all the immunities that come with being a living construct.



Master of Nine has five feat prerequisites, none of which do anything for the build, on a build that gets zero bonus feats. It also requires knowledge of maneuvers from six different disciplines, Crusader only gets three disciplines so you're either spending three more feats on Martial Study or you're dipping another initiator class and cutting yourself out of 9th level maneuvers.

RKV requires you to worship a specific deity, and would require a dip for turn undead, it doesn't exactly fit in with the build.

So being that tripping does not seem to be a great idea against demons, what would a crusader/hellreaver look like fighting them?

Instead of zone control, and I better off just being a bruiser being able to dish out punishment and using maneuvers for utility?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So being that tripping does not seem to be a great idea against demons, what would a crusader/hellreaver look like fighting them?

Instead of zone control, and I better off just being a bruiser being able to dish out punishment and using maneuvers for utility?

You'll be good at dealing damage, between maneuvers and Hellreaver. You'll be good at recovering from damage as well.

Tripping takes a lot of feats, and your build doesn't get any bonus feats. If you're large size it can work, but if you're not large size I don't see it being very impactful. It will also come online fairly late, due to how many feats it takes, so if you're starting at a fairly low level you're without any means of control for a long time.

I generally recommend Dragonborn Warforged for a Crusader, for many reasons. A Warforged is naturally tanky, and even if you get taken out your party can simply heal you to bring you back, it's ideal for someone who's absorbing hits. Dragonborn with the heart aspect can use Entangling Exhalation to exert control as early as 1st level. Keeping opponents debuffed and taking damage every turn will present your character as a threat, rather than an obstacle they can avoid, and entangling them prevents them from moving past you easily. Even if they make the saving throw, unless they have evasion they're still entangled as long as they took any damage from the breath attack. It's a save-and-suck, whereas tripping requires you to both hit and make the trip check, if either of those fail they're not hindered.

Granted demons have immunity or resistance to any of the damage you'll deal with your breath attack, and devils are immune or resistant to everything but electricity. However, by the time you would be encountering a lot of those opponents your initial damage should be sufficient to get at least a few points past their resistance to entangle them. Any damage it deals is just a bonus, the reason you use it is to debuff the enemies.

What level are you starting out at, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach? Are you able to buy off a level adjustment or begin play with it already bought off (and down a bit of xp)? Are you able to use flaws and/or traits?

[Master O'Laughs]

You'll be good at dealing damage, between maneuvers and Hellreaver. You'll be good at recovering from damage as well.

Tripping takes a lot of feats, and your build doesn't get any bonus feats. If you're large size it can work, but if you're not large size I don't see it being very impactful. It will also come online fairly late, due to how many feats it takes, so if you're starting at a fairly low level you're without any means of control for a long time.

I generally recommend Dragonborn Warforged for a Crusader, for many reasons. A Warforged is naturally tanky, and even if you get taken out your party can simply heal you to bring you back, it's ideal for someone who's absorbing hits. Dragonborn with the heart aspect can use Entangling Exhalation to exert control as early as 1st level. Keeping opponents debuffed and taking damage every turn will present your character as a threat, rather than an obstacle they can avoid, and entangling them prevents them from moving past you easily. Even if they make the saving throw, unless they have evasion they're still entangled as long as they took any damage from the breath attack. It's a save-and-suck, whereas tripping requires you to both hit and make the trip check, if either of those fail they're not hindered.

Granted demons have immunity or resistance to any of the damage you'll deal with your breath attack, and devils are immune or resistant to everything but electricity. However, by the time you would be encountering a lot of those opponents your initial damage should be sufficient to get at least a few points past their resistance to entangle them. Any damage it deals is just a bonus, the reason you use it is to debuff the enemies.

What level are you starting out at, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach? Are you able to buy off a level adjustment or begin play with it already bought off (and down a bit of xp)? Are you able to use flaws and/or traits?

Starting at level 11, I do not think LA buy off will be allowed since the DM uses milestones for leveling. Flaws and traits are allowed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Starting at level 11, I do not think LA buy off will be allowed since the DM uses milestones for leveling. Flaws and traits are allowed.

Starting at 11, and with flaws, tripping could work. Go Human and take Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock Back, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and EWP: Spiked Chain.

Don't use a level adjustment, do say you hired an NPC spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to put Enlarge Person + Permanency on you. Say they were 20th level with a Ring of Enduring Arcana, for a DC 35 to dispel it. Or say you borrowed a Ring of Spell Storing and cast both of them on yourself, as Permanency can't be dispelled for spells cast on yourself. Or say they used Heighten Spell and Earth Spell to get a caster level higher than 20th, as Permanency says only a caster that's a level higher than the person who cast the Permanency can dispel it for spells on other creatures.


Otherwise you could go Dragonborn Warforged, take Adamantine Body, Power Attack, Entangling Exhalation, Leap Attack, Improved Fortification, and either Extra Granted Maneuver or EWP: Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer. Get the Quick trait and trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), the feat Adamantine Body reduces your base land speed but you're not slowed down because of armor so you can still tumble with that.

[Eldariel]

Tripping Demons is fine; winged fliers can indeed be tripped and it's very efficient against them and many demons fly with wings. They also aren't all that big as a general rule; most are in the Large ballpark and thus eminently trippable. Knock-down is great in that it adds Trip as a carrier effect onto any maneuver you use (since they trigger the "10+ damage"-condition) - this makes for a pretty potent melee setup. Maneuvers keep you mobile and allow smashing things for great justice. 9th level maneuvers aren't that obligatory but they are nice to have (particularly Strike of Perfect Vitality and War Master's Charge) so in that sense it might be best to keep to a relatively low amount of multiclassing. Hellreaver almost takes all your non-caster levels if you go down that route.

Honestly, you don't need to optimise that hard: Crusader works pretty well out of the box (though make sure to pick up White Raven Tactics; your caster friends will love you) and pretty much does what it says on the tin. Just make sure to always pick Extra Granted Maneuver: it not only gives you better selection on every one of your turns but also speeds up maneuver refreshing by a turn.


And yeah, Mo9 is a really good PRC but it would take dipping another initiator as well as all your feats. Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Warblade-or-Swordsage 1/Mo9 5 is doable though and still grants you 9th level maneuvers (you can take 6 levels in non-initiator classes, including other initiator classes, and still hit 9s). Mo9 is particularly good with Crusader since you get extra maneuvers known and granted, thus giving you a positive array of options. Adaptive Style is a nice feat to have when you know a ton of maneuvers and Improved Unarmed Strike (you could go Unarmed Swordsage to get that for free alongside the Weapon Focus) opens up some TWF options, non-exotic reach weapons (Guisarme is a classic) while still threatening melee and such. Warblade would get you Iron Heart Surge though, which seems very stylish for this character (but you can always also learn that from Mo9).

Definitely, Mo9 is one way to go with this character. Immortal Fortitude + Stance of Alacrity + Counter Stance + Dual Stance is really nice. You can cycle in and out of stances; Aura of Perfect Order is really good too.

[Master O'Laughs]

And yeah, Mo9 is a really good PRC but it would take dipping another initiator as well as all your feats. Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Warblade-or-Swordsage 1/Mo9 5 is doable though and still grants you 9th level maneuvers (you can take 6 levels in non-initiator classes, including other initiator classes, and still hit 9s). Mo9 is particularly good with Crusader since you get extra maneuvers known and granted, thus giving you a positive array of options. Adaptive Style is a nice feat to have when you know a ton of maneuvers and Improved Unarmed Strike (you could go Unarmed Swordsage to get that for free alongside the Weapon Focus) opens up some TWF options, non-exotic reach weapons (Guisarme is a classic) while still threatening melee and such. Warblade would get you Iron Heart Surge though, which seems very stylish for this character (but you can always also learn that from Mo9).

Definitely, Mo9 is one way to go with this character. Immortal Fortitude + Stance of Alacrity + Counter Stance + Dual Stance is really nice. You can cycle in and out of stances; Aura of Perfect Order is really good too.

So I was talking to the DM a bit and it gave me the sense that maybe tripping is going to be situationally useful. This is making me want to lean more towards the bruiser build.

Since Mo9 needs a bunch of feats, is it as feat intensive as the tripping build? How does Eternal blade compare to Mo9?

Also, I just found out the "Ranger" decided to go rogue instead and plans on getting up close and personal. This is making me think Aura of Triumph especially useful.

[Eldariel]

So I was talking to the DM a bit and it gave me the sense that maybe tripping is going to be situationally useful. This is making me want to lean more towards the bruiser build.

Since Mo9 needs a bunch of feats, is it as feat intensive as the tripping build? How does Eternal blade compare to Mo9?

Also, I just found out the "Ranger" decided to go rogue instead and plans on getting up close and personal. This is making me think Aura of Triumph especially useful.

Eternal Blade and Mo9 are very different; Mo9 draws its strength from opening up all the schools so it depends much on the maneuvers you get (though again, I personally do love Immortal Fortitude + Counter Stance for those cinematic "I will not fall until this job is finished"-moments). It's the PRC for having a ton of options open particularly for a Crusader. Eternal Blade gets spontaneous access to Diamond Mind and Devoted Spirit (very nice for surprising situations) and the 10th level power is basically "take your turn as an immediate action", which is just superawesome. One could summarize it as Eternal Blade having better class features while Mo9 has better maneuver access, but it isn't that simple of course and Mo9 comes soon.

Mo9 requires 5 feats (though Unarmed Swordsage does get you one as a bonus) so it is indeed very feat intensive and means you can't e.g. Trip while at it, but the maneuvers have you covered so you don't necessarily need more feats than that. It's a very versatile, fun class to play so if you're at all interested, do give it a try.

[CharonsHelper]

I realize that you've mostly decided your character direction - but I'll just toss out a suggestion from left field.

Go for a Spellthief into Arcane Trickster (with the Master Spellthief feat). I know that Spellthieves have a bad rap - but between the Sorcerer & Druid buddies, you should have plenty of excess spells to crib from them, and demons and nice predictable stuff to steal to supplement it.

The big thing to remember is that a Spellthief doesn't stand on its own - its a better chassis for extra spells that your party-members have.

For example: A level 11 Sorcerer using Orb of Acid? Meh. A level 11 Spellthief using Orb of Acid? Yes please. The Spellthief has better BAB, better DEX, and likely adds 3d6 Sneak Attack to the damage, and maybe steals a spell out of it. Oh yeah - the DC of the Fort save still goes off the Sorcerer's DC.

Melee touch spells are even a bigger deal. There are some pretty nasty touch spells which arcane casters are just too squishy to use. Check out Night's Caress.

[Master O'Laughs]

Eternal Blade and Mo9 are very different; Mo9 draws its strength from opening up all the schools so it depends much on the maneuvers you get (though again, I personally do love Immortal Fortitude + Counter Stance for those cinematic "I will not fall until this job is finished"-moments). It's the PRC for having a ton of options open particularly for a Crusader. Eternal Blade gets spontaneous access to Diamond Mind and Devoted Spirit (very nice for surprising situations) and the 10th level power is basically "take your turn as an immediate action", which is just superawesome. One could summarize it as Eternal Blade having better class features while Mo9 has better maneuver access, but it isn't that simple of course and Mo9 comes soon.

Mo9 requires 5 feats (though Unarmed Swordsage does get you one as a bonus) so it is indeed very feat intensive and means you can't e.g. Trip while at it, but the maneuvers have you covered so you don't necessarily need more feats than that. It's a very versatile, fun class to play so if you're at all interested, do give it a try.

A couple more questions then:

1) Do the additional Mo9 maneuvers from any tree get applied to either initiating class? So I could have desert wind stuff using the crusader mechanic?
2) Will Hellreaver swift actions be competing for use with the Swift action maneuvers? Should it be dropped? It has a lot of flavor, buffs my will, and gets me Mettle sooner.
3) Would build progression be Unarmed Swordsage 1>Crusader 5> Hellreaver 4> Mo9 1

This would mean needing to take 1 more Hellreaver level for the refresh ability and the next Mo9 level gets stance known. Or am I better off pushing off Mo9 until I have finished Hellreaver so I have an even non-crusader levels?

[Eldariel]

A couple more questions then:

1) Do the additional Mo9 maneuvers from any tree get applied to either initiating class? So I could have desert wind stuff using the crusader mechanic?

To the class you're applying them to; when you take levels in a prestige class you must decide which of your previous main classes the maneuvers apply to (see page 96 in ToB). So yes, you can get Desert Wind stuff (and any other stuff) with the amazing Crusader recovery through Mo9 and your Swordsage maneuvers help you qualify for maneuvers as a Mo9.


2) Will Hellreaver swift actions be competing for use with the Swift action maneuvers? Should it be dropped? It has a lot of flavor, buffs my will, and gets me Mettle sooner.

Yes, they'll of course be competing. One of the things about ToB is that it makes martials' swift actions worth a damn. It's not unworkable; you can focus on Strikes and full-round actions and
utility and focus on using your swift actions for Hellreaver. That said, it's probably strictly speaking stronger to go straight initiator, but that isn't all there is to it. Hellreaver is also a fine class and not a bad investment at all.


3) Would build progression be Unarmed Swordsage 1>Crusader 5> Hellreaver 4> Mo9 1

This would mean needing to take 1 more Hellreaver level for the refresh ability and the next Mo9 level gets stance known. Or am I better off pushing off Mo9 until I have finished Hellreaver so I have an even non-crusader levels?

Something like that. I'd take the Unarmed Swordsage as late as possible to get as high level maneuvers with the first level of Swordsage as possible; it's pretty nice to get 3rd level stuff from it for instance as Swordsages get a lot of maneuvers known. And you have Adaptive Style anyways so those maneuvers are gonna be recoverable and available. I'd also personally finish Hellreaver first but either is fine; certainly there are reasons to go in either direction. Same with Mo9: taking all levels of it now gets you more immediate cool stuff while taking more levels of it later gets you more higher level stuff. Either is a trade-off; though with retraining you could work in those extra Crusader levels and then take higher level maneuvers with your Mo9 levels as you advance.

[Master O'Laughs]

To the class you're applying them to; when you take levels in a prestige class you must decide which of your previous main classes the maneuvers apply to (see page 96 in ToB). So yes, you can get Desert Wind stuff (and any other stuff) with the amazing Crusader recovery through Mo9 and your Swordsage maneuvers help you qualify for maneuvers as a Mo9.



Yes, they'll of course be competing. One of the things about ToB is that it makes martials' swift actions worth a damn. It's not unworkable; you can focus on Strikes and full-round actions and
utility and focus on using your swift actions for Hellreaver. That said, it's probably strictly speaking stronger to go straight initiator, but that isn't all there is to it. Hellreaver is also a fine class and not a bad investment at all.



Something like that. I'd take the Unarmed Swordsage as late as possible to get as high level maneuvers with the first level of Swordsage as possible; it's pretty nice to get 3rd level stuff from it for instance as Swordsages get a lot of maneuvers known. And you have Adaptive Style anyways so those maneuvers are gonna be recoverable and available. I'd also personally finish Hellreaver first but either is fine; certainly there are reasons to go in either direction. Same with Mo9: taking all levels of it now gets you more immediate cool stuff while taking more levels of it later gets you more higher level stuff. Either is a trade-off; though with retraining you could work in those extra Crusader levels and then take higher level maneuvers with your Mo9 levels as you advance.

Since going Hellreaver 5 seems like what is "best" it means missing out on the more flavorful abilities (Hellreaver 6 & 10). If Hellreaver is cut completely, would I just replace it with crusader levels so I still get Mettle at 20th level (if I live that long).

I see the two active abilities from Hellreaver worth using are the +to hit and damage, and the heal. So I am thinking maneuvers and stances can probably cover those aspects well enough.

Also, is Mettle worth the hassle to force it? It seems like a nice ability but would I be better off with more swordsage?

[Eldariel]

Since going Hellreaver 5 seems like what is "best" it means missing out on the more flavorful abilities (Hellreaver 6 & 10). If Hellreaver is cut completely, would I just replace it with crusader levels so I still get Mettle at 20th level (if I live that long).

I see the two active abilities from Hellreaver worth using are the +to hit and damage, and the heal. So I am thinking maneuvers and stances can probably cover those aspects well enough.

Also, is Mettle worth the hassle to force it? It seems like a nice ability but would I be better off with more swordsage?

Mettle is nice to have. It's not a necessity. It works on a subset of spells (most prolific of which is probably the Inflict/Harm-line, but also Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Maw of Chaos, etc.) - in some cases, it has a rather significant impact, such as negating the subsequent damage from Maw of Chaos (you'll always take the first damage as that's what procs the save). FWIW if it's Mettle specifically that you're interested in, Pious Templar [Complete Divine] gets it on level 1. It would actually probably be just fine an option as a 2-4 level dip (level 4 gives you the bonus feat to make up for the prerequisite Weapon Focus, though you can cover that Weapon Focus prerequisite with Swordsage's Discipline Focus), though it does give you few Paladin spells. It would even give you an extra use of your Smite on level 2 (and Weapon Specialisation on level 3 for what it's worth).

Whether you'd be better off with more Swordsage, that really depends. Precisely on what you want to do. More Crusader, less Swordsage would get you 9th level maneuvers first as well as more BAB, some delayed damage pool/furious counterstrike and few random useful class features. Of these the most significant is the ability to quickly reach higher level maneuvers and the ability to trade away lower level Crusader maneuvers for higher level ones. Stances are also pretty nice: 8th level stances feature a lot of standouts (such as Immortal Fortitude and Stance of Alacrity).

More Swordsage would get you a lot more lower level maneuvers (behind a worse recovery method, but with how many maneuvers you know, your need to recover the secondary SS maneuvers would most likely be rather low - the only real exception are irreplaceable maneuvers like the "Use Concentration instead of save" in DM; those can't fail). You'd have to hit Swordsage 4 to start trading maneuvers; below that point the actual numeric advantage is rather minor. It also provides some nice Wis-based class features if you happen to have Wis (Insightful Strikes for Wis to Damage on strikes is real nice with full attack strikes like Avalanche of Blades [Diamond Mind], Time Stands Still [Diamond Mind], Pouncing Charge [Tiger Claw], Flashing Sun [Desert Wind] and company) but again, that would require that you have Wis. Swordsage also complements saves nicely and unarmed swordsage advances your unarmed strikes. Actually hitting Evasion would require a lot of levels in SS to the point of implausibility.


For most levels, I'd say 2-4 levels of SS is the max you'd want to take anyways. It pays to focus on Crusader particularly if you're already going deep and further adding Master of Nine. Swordsage is good for prerequisites but comparatively doesn't add that much for the remaining levels and draws you in a slightly different direction. If possible, I'd take the first Swordsage level on level 9 or later so you can pick 3rd level maneuvers from it (3rd level has a lot of the really good maneuvers). Again, all the best stuff and the stuff you wish to use repeatedly though, I'd definitely put into Crusader list since that list recovers without needing an action (Extra Granted Maneuver is quite the must in this case though; but you should take it anyways).

[Master O'Laughs]

Mettle is nice to have. It's not a necessity. It works on a subset of spells (most prolific of which is probably the Inflict/Harm-line, but also Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Maw of Chaos, etc.) - in some cases, it has a rather significant impact, such as negating the subsequent damage from Maw of Chaos (you'll always take the first damage as that's what procs the save). FWIW if it's Mettle specifically that you're interested in, Pious Templar [Complete Divine] gets it on level 1. It would actually probably be just fine an option as a 2-4 level dip (level 4 gives you the bonus feat to make up for the prerequisite Weapon Focus, though you can cover that Weapon Focus prerequisite with Swordsage's Discipline Focus), though it does give you few Paladin spells. It would even give you an extra use of your Smite on level 2 (and Weapon Specialisation on level 3 for what it's worth).

Whether you'd be better off with more Swordsage, that really depends. Precisely on what you want to do. More Crusader, less Swordsage would get you 9th level maneuvers first as well as more BAB, some delayed damage pool/furious counterstrike and few random useful class features. Of these the most significant is the ability to quickly reach higher level maneuvers and the ability to trade away lower level Crusader maneuvers for higher level ones. Stances are also pretty nice: 8th level stances feature a lot of standouts (such as Immortal Fortitude and Stance of Alacrity).

More Swordsage would get you a lot more lower level maneuvers (behind a worse recovery method, but with how many maneuvers you know, your need to recover the secondary SS maneuvers would most likely be rather low - the only real exception are irreplaceable maneuvers like the "Use Concentration instead of save" in DM; those can't fail). You'd have to hit Swordsage 4 to start trading maneuvers; below that point the actual numeric advantage is rather minor. It also provides some nice Wis-based class features if you happen to have Wis (Insightful Strikes for Wis to Damage on strikes is real nice with full attack strikes like Avalanche of Blades [Diamond Mind], Time Stands Still [Diamond Mind], Pouncing Charge [Tiger Claw], Flashing Sun [Desert Wind] and company) but again, that would require that you have Wis. Swordsage also complements saves nicely and unarmed swordsage advances your unarmed strikes. Actually hitting Evasion would require a lot of levels in SS to the point of implausibility.


For most levels, I'd say 2-4 levels of SS is the max you'd want to take anyways. It pays to focus on Crusader particularly if you're already going deep and further adding Master of Nine. Swordsage is good for prerequisites but comparatively doesn't add that much for the remaining levels and draws you in a slightly different direction. If possible, I'd take the first Swordsage level on level 9 or later so you can pick 3rd level maneuvers from it (3rd level has a lot of the really good maneuvers). Again, all the best stuff and the stuff you wish to use repeatedly though, I'd definitely put into Crusader list since that list recovers without needing an action (Extra Granted Maneuver is quite the must in this case though; but you should take it anyways).

Okay so if dropping Hellreaver, you would suggest something like Crusader 8 > Swordsage 2 (for wis to AC and mithral breastplate)> Mo9 1?

Would the swordsage handbook be good info for choosing maneuvers? Anything it might recommend I should avoid?

And so I would be proficient in unarmed strikes from UA Swordsage if my target gets within 5' of me and use a Guisarme normally?

Is thicket of blades still a good go to stance if I am not focusing on tripping?

Also, what would Attribute priority look like? STR>CON>DEX>CHA>WIS>INT ???

[Eldariel]

Okay so if dropping Hellreaver, you would suggest something like Crusader 8 > Swordsage 2 (for wis to AC and mithral breastplate)> Mo9 1?

Unarmed Swordsage doesn't get armored Wis to AC (or probably shouldn't get, since it loses armor proficiencies) so in that sense it isn't that much of an improvement though it's of course fine if your DM rules that the ability doesn't change and you get Wis in light armor anyways (look into Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) in that case). That said, two levels of Swordsage is nice in that you get two stances, a ton of maneuvers, the weapon focus, improved unarmed strike, and even Quick to Act (and a nice buff to Will and Ref save).


Would the swordsage handbook be good info for choosing maneuvers? Anything it might recommend I should avoid?

Well, it's a good starting point. Refer to Crusader and Warblade handbooks as well. Though while picking SS maneuvers, keep in mind that they're generally lower level and thus especially use them for prerequisites for stuff you intend to take with Mo9 levels (particularly important for schools Crusader can't access if you want maneuvers from them. Those schools are Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw). Though useful low-level stuff such as Counter Charge is also nice to have. Of Iron Heart, I think you still want Iron Heart Surge even if you take nothing else (though you have to burn two Mo9 maneuvers on it, which really sucks but Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge are both really good and worth knowing so it's not a bad investment).


And so I would be proficient in unarmed strikes from UA Swordsage if my target gets within 5' of me and use a Guisarme normally?

That's still fine.


Is thicket of blades still a good go to stance if I am not focusing on tripping?

If you have a reach it's a fine stance. However, as a Mo9 you definitely want an access to an array of stances, to make use of your Dual Stance (Leading the Charge, some detection stance such as Hearing the Air or Hunter's Sense [enables tracking too], Aura of Perfect Order, Stance of Alacrity and Immortal Fortitude at least are worth knowing, offering somewhat unique effects - Roots of the Mountain, Pressing the Advantage and Pearl of Black Doubt are some other options worth mentioning). Even without focus on it, tripping can be good, and free attacks from reach are always good. You can also just go the much shorter Combat Reflexes > Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) route for area control (or even just Stand Still - you have Rapid Counter [Diamond Mind 5] and your default AoO to work with even without Combat Reflexes so you can do a decent job controlling space). Of course, you could also dip two levels in Monk or Barbarian (depending on whether you want to go Lawful or Neutral/Chaotic) for the Improved Trip anyways if you want to combine these two options; you have the class levels to work with without compromising your 9th level maneuvers this way.


Also, what would Attribute priority look like? STR>CON>DEX>CHA>WIS>INT ???

That seems fine to me, but you can work with a lot of different comboes. Charisma is nice but not necessary. Dex too; you can use heavy armor if need be. Str and Con are obviously paramount and everything else is nice to have.

[Master O'Laughs]

So I have been trying to go through the handbooks and figure what would be best to pick. This is what I have so far, any suggestions on improvements?

C.L1 - Crusader’s Strike (DS)
C.L1 - Vanguard Strike (DS)
C.L1 - Charging Minotaur (SD)
C.L1 - Douse the Flame (WR)
C.L1 - Leading the Attack (WR)
C.L3 - Mountain Hammer (SD)
C.L4 - Battle Leader’s Charge (WR)
C.L5 - White Raven Tactics (WR)
C.L6 - Defensive Rebuke (DS)
C.L7 - Revitalizing Strike (DS)
C.L8 - Covering Strike (WR)
SS.L9 - Flashing Sun (DW)
SS.L9 - Zephyr Dance(DW)
SS.L9 - Emerald Razor (DM)
SS.L9 - Mind Over Body (DM)
SS.L9 - Shadow Jaunt (SH)
SS.L9 - Claw at the Moon (TC)
SS.L10 - Soaring Raptor Strike (TC)
M9.L11 -
M9.L11 -

The strike-through maneuvers are the ones traded out at 4, 6,& 8 though I am not sure if I picked good ones to drop. I kept charging Minotaur since I am trying to get shock trooper.

C.L1 - Iron Guard’s Glare (DS)
C.L2 - Leading the Charge (WR)
C.L8 - Thicket of Blades (DS)
SS.L9 - Dance of the Spider (SH)
SS.L10 - Pearl of Black Redoubt (DM)

I am not sure on what to pick for the Mo9 level. Also, do I want my initiative as low as possible so White Raven Tactics can allow more double turns or would I be better off keeping it high so I could always delay my turn and use it then?

For flaws, I current have Vulnerable (-1 AC) and I am looking for 1 more.

Is it worth dipping maybe 2 levels of monk for Overwhelming attack style? This would get me Power attack and Improved bullrush and allow me to get shock trooper and Mo9 by level 11.

[Eldariel]

White Raven Tactics

Functionally it's one and the same whether your Initiative is high or low for WRT. You can always delay if you want to double up on an ally's turn this turn. But moving an ally ahead of the enemy in initiative often accomplishes the same thing as doubling up on their turn afterwards. Observe:

21 - You
6 - Orc
5 - Bud

You act, WRT pal.

R1:
21 - You
20 - Bud
6 - Orc

R2:
21 - You
20 - Bud
6 - Orc

Bud acts twice before the Orc's second turn (but there's a difference between acting twice in a row of course; you can move up, attack and execute a full-round with two consecutive turns but the Orc would have the chance to move away otherwise).

If you had...for instance:

18 - Orc
14 - Bud
13 - You

WRT and Bud acts twice after the Orc. As before, your bud gets two actions before the Orc's second action.

Now, the situation where you do need to delay is when:
18 - Orc
14 - You
13 - Bud

In this case WRT literally does nothing as written but just delay to until after your ally has acted and you can WRT just fine.


TL;DR: Maximize your initiative. You can always delay. Raising it is harder (though there's Moment of Alacrity in Diamond Mind).


Maneuvers

Those look fine. You've been careful enough with the overlap so you're covering various niches. I definitely think one maneuver you're lacking is Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw. My personal preferred start into Tiger Claw is Rabid Wolf Strike > Sudden Leap. Being able to hit with a +4 bonus is occasionally quite useful, doubly so if you have Power Attack, and it gets you into the school nicely and opens up taking Sudden Leap. That in turn is the first repositioning maneuver in the game and being able to move 10' as a swift action on a character with 3 attacks on a full round attack (plus Flashing Sun for 4, potential Haste for 5) is really nice. Of course, it would be nice to take Sudden Leap for your Crusader maneuvers but sadly that's not really in the cards without sacrificing a Mo9 maneuver.

Setting Sun has a lot of cool stuff though, but your current choices make perfect sense as well. I'm personally a big fan of Counter Charge too, though you seem like you plan to simply facetank through stuff so you might not need it.


Like I said, I think that while you'd want to go around grabbing all the awesome 5th level maneuvers right now, it might be prudent to pick up Wall of Blades > Iron Heart Surge at Mo9 1. It's just such a powerful catch-all answer to getting afflicted with anything from Blindness to Antimagic Field. And Wall of Blades is a great counter to have; it scales great and makes a good complement for Zephyr Dance.

That said, 5th level maneuvers contain the likes of Disrupting Blow [Diamond Mind]/Dazing Strike [Iron Heart] (basically the same maneuver - some of the better save-or-X effects in ToB), Radiant Charge [Devoted Spirit], Pouncing Charge [Tiger Claw], Dancing Mongoose [Tiger Claw] (raw damage, just a pure extra hit) & co. so it's an investment. But potentially a worthwhile one. On level 12 you could then pick up a 6th level maneuver (Moment of Alacrity, Manticore Parry, Order Forged From Chaos [one of the few ways to make use of your Move Actions], War Leader's Charge) and a 5th level stance or a 6th level one (Hearing the Air, Shifting Defense, Aura of Perfect Order, Press the Advantage are all strong). In short, you have a lot of good options. Tons of different charges in particular, so just pick the one you like the best; don't waste all your maneuvers known on a bunch of broadly similar charges when you only plan on using one anyways.

One key note about Shifting Defense (I know you don't plan on Setting Sun, but just in case), the actual rules text states that you can move 5' each time an opponent attacks you, which is substantially stronger than the table description of "move once every time an enemy misses you". If you have a lot of Strength, some of the Setting Sun throws are also pretty nice on a Strength-focused character as ways to displace the opponent and put them prone while dealing some damage (a good way to get them off your squishies and to enable your other beaters, such as the Druid and their companion, to deal some damage).


EDIT: And note that you got Counter Stance on level 12. This means you don't need to spend an action switching your stances so you have much more options in the sense of picking specialised stances you only want occasionally; just Counter anything and you can pick your preferred stance as a free action. Pearl of Black Doubt, Shifting Defense, Iron Guard's Glare, etc. are all good options for stuff you can use against various types of opponents (though Pearl of Black Doubt and Shifting Defense are both something to use against enemies with tons of attacks so in that sense knowing both is a bit redundant; Shifting Defense is less reliant on your AC than Pearl of Black Doubt though). Martial Spirit or Aura of Triumph is nice to have for when people are hurt enough to warrant them but each stance known is of course an investment and you only get some.

I personally quite like having Pearl of Black Doubt & Iron Guard's Glare for Dual Stance: one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" where they're disincentivized from attacking your but also have trouble attacking your teammates. Pearl of Black Doubt obviously goes beautifully with Zephyr Dance/Wall of Blades to start stacking the AC bonus.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, Arms & Equipment Guide has Sparring Dummy of the Master that officially only works for Monks but might be reasonable for Unarmed Swordsages too. It allows you to train for a week to start taking 10' steps instead of 5' steps. This can also be accomplished with a DC40 Tumble check [Oriental Adventures]. Why bring this up? Well, add Press the Advantage and you're suddenly taking 20' steps! This basically means you no longer need move/swift actions to move as you can dance around the battlefield just fine with just your adjustments. Of course, many strikes are a standard action leaving you with a free move action. Some ways to use those include the Fearsome armor property [Drow of the Underdark] to get Move Action Intimidation and the mentioned Order Forged from Chaos to keep your teammates moving aroudn.

[Master O'Laughs]

Maneuvers

Those look fine. You've been careful enough with the overlap so you're covering various niches. I definitely think one maneuver you're lacking is Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw. My personal preferred start into Tiger Claw is Rabid Wolf Strike > Sudden Leap. Being able to hit with a +4 bonus is occasionally quite useful, doubly so if you have Power Attack, and it gets you into the school nicely and opens up taking Sudden Leap. That in turn is the first repositioning maneuver in the game and being able to move 10' as a swift action on a character with 3 attacks on a full round attack (plus Flashing Sun for 4, potential Haste for 5) is really nice. Of course, it would be nice to take Sudden Leap for your Crusader maneuvers but sadly that's not really in the cards without sacrificing a Mo9 maneuver.

I like your reasoning and have swapped those two for the other Tiger Claw maneuvers I had chosen (I was just grasping at straws with those really).



Setting Sun has a lot of cool stuff though, but your current choices make perfect sense as well. I'm personally a big fan of Counter Charge too, though you seem like you plan to simply facetank through stuff so you might not need it.

I actually don't really like Zephyr Dance after thinking about it. Since you do not know if it will work or not, I like the more active Counter Charge from SS better even though it is more situational. As a whole, would you say Desert Wind or Setting Sun will have better higher level maneuvers for me? What would be things to look at in particular to grab with Mo9?



Like I said, I think that while you'd want to go around grabbing all the awesome 5th level maneuvers right now, it might be prudent to pick up Wall of Blades > Iron Heart Surge at Mo9 1. It's just such a powerful catch-all answer to getting afflicted with anything from Blindness to Antimagic Field. And Wall of Blades is a great counter to have; it scales great and makes a good complement for Zephyr Dance.

That said, 5th level maneuvers contain the likes of Disrupting Blow [Diamond Mind]/Dazing Strike [Iron Heart] (basically the same maneuver - some of the better save-or-X effects in ToB), Radiant Charge [Devoted Spirit], Pouncing Charge [Tiger Claw], Dancing Mongoose [Tiger Claw] (raw damage, just a pure extra hit) & co. so it's an investment. But potentially a worthwhile one. On level 12 you could then pick up a 6th level maneuver (Moment of Alacrity, Manticore Parry, Order Forged From Chaos [one of the few ways to make use of your Move Actions], War Leader's Charge) and a 5th level stance or a 6th level one (Hearing the Air, Shifting Defense, Aura of Perfect Order, Press the Advantage are all strong). In short, you have a lot of good options. Tons of different charges in particular, so just pick the one you like the best; don't waste all your maneuvers known on a bunch of broadly similar charges when you only plan on using one anyways.

There seems like there are too many good options to choose from. Pouncing Charge seems like something I should really take if I plan on getting shock trooper/leap attack right?

Also, the preventing the actions of a bad dude seems really nice.


One key note about Shifting Defense (I know you don't plan on Setting Sun, but just in case), the actual rules text states that you can move 5' each time an opponent attacks you, which is substantially stronger than the table description of "move once every time an enemy misses you". If you have a lot of Strength, some of the Setting Sun throws are also pretty nice on a Strength-focused character as ways to displace the opponent and put them prone while dealing some damage (a good way to get them off your squishies and to enable your other beaters, such as the Druid and their companion, to deal some damage).

Since tripping seems like it will only be useful part of the time due to the likelihood of facing large demons, I think that may be why I shied away from Setting Sun. The throws do seem really cool but not as useful as some of the other things.



EDIT: And note that you got Counter Stance on level 12. This means you don't need to spend an action switching your stances so you have much more options in the sense of picking specialized stances you only want occasionally; just Counter anything and you can pick your preferred stance as a free action. Pearl of Black Doubt, Shifting Defense, Iron Guard's Glare, etc. are all good options for stuff you can use against various types of opponents (though Pearl of Black Doubt and Shifting Defense are both something to use against enemies with tons of attacks so in that sense knowing both is a bit redundant; Shifting Defense is less reliant on your AC than Pearl of Black Doubt though). Martial Spirit or Aura of Triumph is nice to have for when people are hurt enough to warrant them but each stance known is of course an investment and you only get some.

I personally quite like having Pearl of Black Doubt & Iron Guard's Glare for Dual Stance: one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" where they're disincentivized from attacking your but also have trouble attacking your teammates. Pearl of Black Doubt obviously goes beautifully with Zephyr Dance/Wall of Blades to start stacking the AC bonus.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, Arms & Equipment Guide has Sparring Dummy of the Master that officially only works for Monks but might be reasonable for Unarmed Swordsages too. It allows you to train for a week to start taking 10' steps instead of 5' steps. This can also be accomplished with a DC40 Tumble check [Oriental Adventures]. Why bring this up? Well, add Press the Advantage and you're suddenly taking 20' steps! This basically means you no longer need move/swift actions to move as you can dance around the battlefield just fine with just your adjustments. Of course, many strikes are a standard action leaving you with a free move action. Some ways to use those include the Fearsome armor property [Drow of the Underdark] to get Move Action Intimidation and the mentioned Order Forged from Chaos to keep your teammates moving around.

10' to 20' steps do sound crazy awesome.

Another question I thought about is it Shadow Jaunt worth one of my Swordsage choices? Since the other teleportation maneuvers do not have any requirements besides IL. Should I just grab them at a later time? I am thinking if I come back to swordsage for 2 more levels later.

[Eldariel]

I actually don't really like Zephyr Dance after thinking about it. Since you do not know if it will work or not, I like the more active Counter Charge from SS better even though it is more situational. As a whole, would you say Desert Wind or Setting Sun will have better higher level maneuvers for me? What would be things to look at in particular to grab with Mo9?

I really like Setting Sun, but there's some personal bias here. Desert Wind kinda runs afoul of the fact that many Outsiders in particular are often resistant or immune to fire. Flashing Sun is definitely worth knowing (all the way up until you get Time Stands Still) and Flame's Blessing is a really nice stance, but above that point there are few enough great maneuvers if the enemy has fire resistance (Leaping Flame is nice but very situational, as is Desert Tempest - that's' about it).

Setting Sun has some great counters: notably Scorpion Parry (much like Manticore Parry), Fool's Strike (even better, never at a loss for target) & Mirrored Pursuit (a caster/archer tries to 5' step away or withdraw? How about "Nope"). Feigned Opening isn't bad either. Hydra Slaying Strike isn't bad in melee combat either (though of course, using it denies you a full attack as well so it's a matter of hitting harder). The throws can be nice, particularly if you ever take Improved Trip. The effect is really potent if they're a bit harder to pull off; but Trip-check is a straight Strength- (or Dex-)check and with +4 from the maneuver coupled with +4 from Improved Trip makes you extremely favored against anything you can trip. If you get Enlarge Personed (or just ask your DM; technically throws don't restrict the size of the opponent you can get a Trip attempt against), you can trip enemies up to Huge size with reliability and there are hardly any demons above that category.


Basically, Setting Sun has the Throws (Tornado Throw is absolutely incredible if you have high movement speed; one of the few ways to turn movement speed into an effective and a ton of rather good counters. If you have Stance of Alacrity, as you should when you can pick it up (plan out your Mo9 levels so that you can pick it up as your second stance), those counters are probably really nice to have (though Iron Heart has some of the good ones too).



There seems like there are too many good options to choose from. Pouncing Charge seems like something I should really take if I plan on getting shock trooper/leap attack right?

Also, the preventing the actions of a bad dude seems really nice.

You'll get White Raven Hammer a bit later which has no save, making those two maneuvers nice but not absolutely necessary (though again, Str-based save = a fair chance of failure and Daze is a better condition than Stunned in that there are fewer immune things). Oh yeah, I made a mistake: there's a huge difference between Disrupting Blow and Dazing Strike, Dazing Strike is a Fort-save, while Disrupting Blow is a Will-save. This makes Disrupting Blow much better since the enemies you might want to use it against are likely to have much higher Fort than Will.

And yeah, unless you get Pounce through another means (which means you can pick up any charging maneuver and don't need Pouncing Charge), Pouncing Charge is more or less a must-have. Though be a bit careful about splattering everything: Leading the Charge + Pouncing Charge with Shock Trooper can do absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage (especially if coupled with a charge multiplier such as Valorous weapon [Unapproachable East]), which can be a problem if the table is low optimisation.


Since tripping seems like it will only be useful part of the time due to the likelihood of facing large demons, I think that may be why I shied away from Setting Sun. The throws do seem really cool but not as useful as some of the other things.

Their effects are absolutely superb, it's just the Trip-check that's tricky but again, a Trip-check is a straight Strength-check (BAB doesn't factor into it), which favours PC and it's a flat check you can get vast multipliers on (+8 from Improved Trip and Throw maneuver is equivalent to two size categories), enabling you to actually use it against enemies one size larger than you (Large without anything or Huge with Enlarge Person) with rather decent chances of success if your strength is tipped off.


10' to 20' steps do sound crazy awesome.

Another question I thought about is it Shadow Jaunt worth one of my Swordsage choices? Since the other teleportation maneuvers do not have any requirements besides IL. Should I just grab them at a later time? I am thinking if I come back to swordsage for 2 more levels later.

Having a teleport available is nice but you could indeed just pick up Shadow Blink since that's the one you're the most likely to use. Depends on how much the party helps you too, but it's nice to be able to teleport on your own. You'll probably want Quicksilver Motion from Diamond Mind anyways (it not only allows moving as a swift action, but taking a move action, which means it enables using stuff like Fearsome Armor or Order Forged From Chaos too), so there's some redundancy, but teleportation is good enough that it can still be worth having that maneuver.

Though I would probably just space out Mo9 levels to get the maneuvers you want since your SS initiator level is going to be significantly lower (though Mo9 counts fully towards it so with SS 2/Mo9 5 you would have 7 levels of full advancement and the rest as half advancement), but it's not out of the question to take more Swordsage either.


Far as items go, if you take Iron Heart Surge, I strongly recommend Feathered Wings Graft [Fiend Folio]. Seems kinda appropriate for your character and it's pretty awesome; cheap, permanent, extraordinary flight. You can make sure you don't get corrupt thanks to Moment of Perfect Mind never failing and Iron Heart Surge getting rid of any lingering problems. Goes great with Boots of Speed; your landspeed becomes 60' improving your flight speed and then you get further +30' to your flight speed for 90' flight when the Haste effect is active.

[Master O'Laughs]

How many Level 9 maneuvers should I realistically aim for? This would dictate how soon I take levels in Mo9, no?

Looking at Crusader, It seems like I will only get 3 stances from it since Crusader 14 is out from UAS 2 and Mo9 5, but with the current progression, I get Thicket of blades at Crusader 8. So it looks like I will need to take the Martial Stance Feat in order to obtain Aura of Triumph, Immortal Fortitude, and Stance of Alacrity?

To better plan out progression and stances, what would be the ideal level progression? DM made it sound like lvl 20 is a likely possibility and even EPIC levels could happen.

Cru 1-8/UAS 1-2/Mo9 1/Cru 9/Mo9 2/Cru 10-11/Mo9 3-5/Cru 12-13
This would get me Strike of Righteous Vitality, War Master's Charge, Strike of Perfect Clarity, and Time Stands still.

If I change the order so it ends Cru 10-13/Mo9 3-5; I get access to 1 additional lvl 9 Maneuver (if I can qualify) which would most be either Tornado Throw, Feral Death Blow, or Five-shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (though the last one seems least likely to qualify for since I only plan on having 1 stance and maybe 1 teleport).

[Eldariel]

First, don't bother with Strike of Perfect Clarity. Diamond Nightmare Blade is similar and largely better for two-handers (since you can multiply Power Attack and similar). Concentration is mostly a formality since you're maxing it for other maneuvers anyways and skills outscale everything else. All you need is 33 base damage to match Strike of Perfect Clarity and 2d4 weapon + 5 weapon + 12 Str x 1.5 is already 28. If you're Enlarged you get +3. Collision weapon would be +5 more, Power Attack can offer substantial bonuses, class features like Furious Counterstrike or Insightul Strike (let alone Mastery of the Nine) add a lot, etc. In general, Diamond Nightmare Blade matches outperforms Strike of Perfect Clarity most of the time.

I'll respond to the leveling questions later when I have more time but in short, yes, taking Mo9 as late as possible is eventually optimal.

[Eldariel]

Okay, now the broader answer to your leveling question.

Yes, it's true that the later you take Mo9 the more high level maneuvers you can grab. Crusader is sorta competitive, since you can trade away maneuvers but with the access to all the schools and getting multiple maneuvers on multiple levels, Mo9 obviously outperforms Crusader in that regard. That said, Mo9 class features (particularly Counter Stance, Dual Stance and Mastery of the Nine) are really nice and postponing Mo9 for more high level maneuvers also postpones those. So it's kinda "be strong now or be stronger later"-kinda deal. Since you have to play through these levels and these levels are where the caster/martial disparity begins to grow, maximizing your current strength seems important. However, if you're going into epic and want to be doing much at all, maximizing your pre-epic strength is even more key.

Thus I recommend asking about retraining. You could play Crusader 8/UASS 2/Mo9 5 now and then take some more levels of Crusader and retrain down the line into Crusader 8/UASS 2/Crusader X/Mo9 5. That would be the optimal option since it gets you the best of both worlds. Provided your DM doesn't let that fly though, I'd err towards taking most of Mo9 later, perhaps with the first two levels early (since you can get a worthwhile stance and the awesome Counter Stance).


Btw, one more maneuver I have to highlight is Greater Divine Surge. It's kind of a weird one but it's just about the only means you have to surpass your limits and hit above your paygrade. Now, the downside of taking a billion Con damage sucks but once you have Strike of Righteous Vitality, that's easy enough to fix. I once used a Greater Divine Surge specialised Mo9 in a Gestalt Warrior Arena to great effect. Just tank everything and go for that one last blow. Then heal up if that doesn't work.

[Master O'Laughs]

Btw, one more maneuver I have to highlight is Greater Divine Surge. It's kind of a weird one but it's just about the only means you have to surpass your limits and hit above your pay grade. Now, the downside of taking a billion Con damage sucks but once you have Strike of Righteous Vitality, that's easy enough to fix. I once used a Greater Divine Surge specialized Mo9 in a Gestalt Warrior Arena to great effect. Just tank everything and go for that one last blow. Then heal up if that doesn't work.

Quick reply: So if I had a belt of battle and saved 2 charges for a standard action I could use greater divine surge, take CON damage = IL and do an extra 30d8 damage+ and then just heal it back with Strike of Righteous Vitality.... AWESOME!!!!

[Eldariel]

Quick reply: So if I had a belt of battle and saved 2 charges for a standard action I could use greater divine surge, take CON damage = IL and do an extra 30d8 damage+ and then just heal it back with Strike of Righteous Vitality.... AWESOME!!!!

Not just Belt of Battle; if you space it out right you can also do this with e.g. Moment of Alacrity, or if DM allows self-use of White Raven Tactics, that also works. The best part about the maneuver is the "to hit"-bonus though. It's one of the few ways to actually hit something with AC = 20+your to hit bonus with some reliability (goes nicely with Aura of Perfect Order too to guarantee a decent roll on the hit roll). And against more mundane enemies you can couple it with Power Attack for...howevermuch BAB you've got and probably still land your attack. :smallamused:

[Master O'Laughs]

Okay so I have been a little busy but I talked with my DM and he said he is willing to allow me to take a homebrew feat to allow me to switch out maneuvers like a sorcerer does spells at each level.

He said I just need to give him the text for it and he will think up reasonable pre-reqs for it.

Would this free me up to go Cru 8/UAS 2/Mo9 5? Would I be able to get enough swaps at IL9 to get all the goodies I could want?

How should the base mechanics of the feat be worded?

[Eldariel]

Crusader (and other ToB classes) already have some language that enables them to trade maneuvers much as Sorcs can trade spells (every even level). If this were in addition to that and every level (without the "max. 2 levels lower"-restriction), then yeah, it could work out. The wording could be something like:

"Benefit: Whenever you take a level in a class that [fully progresses initiator level/grants maneuvers known/whatever way to identify initiator classes], you can additionally lose one maneuver you currently know in exchange for another maneuver you fill the qualifications for."

Thanks to maneuvers having qualifications, you really don't need to worry about the maneuver level too much; the qualifications already ensure that you need to know many lower level maneuvers (and many of them are good enough to keep all the way anyways).

[Master O'Laughs]

How does this sound?

Martial Flexibility

Your extensive training has allowed you to gain insight into a wide array of disciplines.

Prerequisite
TBD by DM

Benefit
Whenever you take a level in a class that fully progresses initiator level, you can additionally lose one maneuver you currently know in exchange for another maneuver you fill the qualifications for from the same source.

(this would allow swapping out maneuvers from Swordsage later on for better ones)

[Eldariel]

How does this sound?

Martial Flexibility

Your extensive training has allowed you to gain insight into a wide array of disciplines.

Prerequisite
TBD by DM

Benefit
Whenever you take a level in a class that fully progresses initiator level, you can additionally lose one maneuver you currently know in exchange for another maneuver you fill the qualifications for from the same source.

(this would allow swapping out maneuvers from Swordsage later on for better ones)

Sure, that sounds fine to me.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'd make Martial Study a prerequisite, because otherwise it's basically just 'better Martial Study' for an initiator class.

Also maybe clarify "from the same source". Although on second thought, I can't come up with a better way of saying that that doesn't have some major loopholes/problems.

[Master O'Laughs]

I'd make Martial Study a prerequisite, because otherwise it's basically just 'better Martial Study' for an initiator class.

Also maybe clarify "from the same source". Although on second thought, I can't come up with a better way of saying that that doesn't have some major loopholes/problems.

That would make a lot of sense, using Martial Study as a pre-req, and I won't be mad if my DM makes that determination on his own but I already have a ton of feats I need to acquire for Master of 9.

I appreciate the feedback though.

[Master O'Laughs]

So thinking about the swordsage manuevers, I realized I will only ever have 4 available at a time so I am better off using them for situational utility.

SS.L9 - Flashing Sun (DW)
SS.L9 - Zephyr Dance(DW)***
SS.L9 - Action Before Thought (DM)**
SS.L9 - Mind Over Body (DM)**
SS.L9 - Shadow Jaunt (SH)***
SS.L9 - Rapid Wolf Strike (TC)
SS.L10 - Sudden Leap (TC)***

Above are what maneuvers I planned on taking and what levels. The asterisks signifying which would be readied.

The exception is the Diamond mind maneuvers which could be switched between depending on what I am facing(???). Is Action before thought worth it or the Will save choice better?

My worst Save will most likely be reflex but that typically governs damage rec'd which I am not too worried about. Next would be Fort. Should I just always prepare Mind Over Body in the instance of a scary fort save?

[Eldariel]

Mind over Body is probably the most useful one since you have Cha to Will also, but all of them are frankly worth knowing, particularly since you'll have Adaptive Style anyways. Will > Fort > Ref in terms of importance: Will kills you and makes you an enemy, Fort just kills you, Ref generally deals a lot of damage potentially killing you but it's the least likely of the bunch to be lethal since there are other defenses.