House Rule - Removing Concentration for Bad Wizard Spells

[Bobthewizard]

So I love playing wizards but have a couple complaints. First, there are so many spells that might be fun but are so much less effective than the best ones for that level that I never take them. Also, there are a paucity of non-damage, non-concentration combat spells, so after round one, Wizards and sorcerers are mostly limited to using damage spells with only a few options for controllers - Grease, Blindness, Pyrotechnics.

When I DM, I don't want to get rid of concentration altogether or offer double concentration for powerful spells. Instead, I thought I'd try removing concentration for some spells that are otherwise never taken. I started by looking at spells rated orange or worse in Ozwick's Guide and Treantmonk's guide. Then I removed the buffs and noncombat spells. I then removed some that might be broken without concentration - Darkness, Mind Spike, Sickening Radiance, Cloudkill.

Here's the list a came up with. I'm posting here to see what other people think.

Cantrips - Create Bonfire, (added True Strike)
Level 1 - Cause Fear, Witch Bolt
Level 2 - Cloud of Daggers, Crown of Madness, Dust Devil, Earthbind, Maximillian’s Earthen Grasp, Warding Wind
Level 3 - Summon Lesser Demon, Wall of Sand, Wall of Water
Level 4 - Confusion, Control Water, Phantasmal Killer
Level 5 - Control Winds, Dawn, Mislead, Wall of Light

Based on the discussion below, I'm adding two restrictions.
1. Limited to spells cast at their lowest level. If you want to upcast, you have to use concentration.
2. The spell also ends if you dismiss it as an action or cast this spell again (similar to Minor Illusion)

So I have two questions.
1. Do you think removing concentration from these spells would break the game?
2 Would it make for more varied spell selection?

Thanks

Note: Editing based on suggestions below. Thanks for the input.

Edit 4/25/19: After further consideration, instead of making a house rule, I am going to give the party these two magic items to try to get the same effects. This will let me trial the mechanics without an official house rule.

Amulet of Water: Gives ability to cast Wall of Water (level 3) or Control Water (level 4) using the wearer’s spell slot. The wearer can also cast Water Breathing once per day without using a spell slot. These do not count towards prepared spells and do not use concentration. The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or cast that spell again.

Amulet of Wind: Gives ability to cast Warding Wind (level 2), Wall of Sand (level 3) or Control Winds (level 5) using the wearer’s spell slot. These do not count towards prepared spells and do not use concentration. The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or cast that spell again.

[stoutstien]

few spells on that list would be insane without concentration. stand out is cloud of dagger could be combed with any spell that restricted movement to get constant auto-hit damage. phan killer is one of the best spell vs dumb targets even with concentration.

[Bloodcloud]

So I love playing wizards but have a couple complaints. First, there are so many spells that might be fun but are so much less effective than the best ones for that level that I never take them. Also, there are a paucity of non-damage, non-concentration combat spells, so after round one, Wizards and sorcerers are mostly limited to using damage spells with only a few options for controllers - Grease, Blindness, Pyrotechnics.

When I DM, I don't want to get rid of concentration altogether or offer double concentration for powerful spells. Instead, I thought I'd try removing concentration for some spells that are otherwise never taken. I started by looking at spells rated orange or worse in Ozwick's Guide and Treantmonk's guide. Then I removed the buffs and noncombat spells. I then removed some that might be broken without concentration - Darkness, Mind Spike, Sickening Radiance, Cloudkill.

Here's the list a came up with. I'm posting here to see what other people think.

Cantrips - Create Bonfire
Level 1 - Cause Fear, Witch Bolt
Level 2 - Cloud of Daggers, Crown of Madness, Dust Devil, Earthbind, Maximillian’s Earthen Grasp, Warding Wind
Level 3 - Summon Lesser Demon, Wall of Sand, Wall of Water
Level 4 - Confusion, Control Water, Phantasmal Killer
Level 5 - Control Winds, Dawn, Mislead, Wall of Light

So I have two questions.
1. Do you think removing concentration from these spells would break the game?
2 Would it make for more varied spell selection?

Thanks


Summon lesser demon, without concentration needs a way to send back the demons.

Witch bolt is STILL terrible.

[MrStabby]

If I remember correctly a target can walk away from dust devil to not take damage. It will take more than a lack of concentration to make this playable.

Earthen grasp is an OK spell, and any spell that can pin a target in place whilst a concentration spell does bad stuff do them might be an issue.

Warding wind, wall of sand, wall of water... all interesting enough, but maybe not good enough so decent candidates.


This fixes the internal balance of the class but doesn't fix the balance between wizards and other classes. It is a buff to an already powerful class. I think you need to tone the good bits down as well.

[Deimess]

I know Crown of Madness gets a bad rap, and personally I rarely see myself preparing/memorizing it on a PC, but I LOVE using it as a DM. If you have a bunch of mooks capable of casting 2nd level spells and they are throwing out Crown of Madness at the PCs it can be a serious threat. Taking away the concentration requirement for it would make it a lot stronger of a spell, maybe not to a PC, but if cast by multiple casters. IMHO, a similar philosophy applies to other spells commonly seen as bad, in that tampering with them can open up a lot of unforeseen consequences.

[Bobthewizard]

Thanks for the replies. I think this ends up being a pretty fun list for a few additional non-concentration control spells. We'll see how this works. And I agree, even without concentration, Witch Bolt and Dust Devil are still bad.

[Aquillion]

few spells on that list would be insane without concentration. stand out is cloud of dagger could be combed with any spell that restricted movement to get constant auto-hit damage. phan killer is one of the best spell vs dumb targets even with concentration.For comparison, Faithful Hound does 4d8 to one enemy at a time in the 15x15 area it can reach, lasts eight hours, and is 4th level. It's also invisible and barks and never does friendly fire. It requires an attack roll, but because it's invisible, it will almost always attack with advantage.

A no-concentration cloud of daggers would do the same damage as the Hound when upcast to level 4 (8d4 vs 4d8). It could hypothetically hit multiple enemies in a round, but it's limited to just a 5x5 area (whereas the hound can attack things in 5 feet, hence the 15x15 coverage.) The main advantage it would have is that it hits automatically, but, again, the hound rarely misses on account of being invisible.

I think it would be a top-tier spell (especially for Bards), but people seem to weirdly ignore Faithful Hound. Of course, it might be more overwhelming at level 2 than the Hound is at level 4; it's not like scaling is some mathematically precise art.

I would be more concerned about Cause Fear. On melee enemies it's pretty hard CC, and even ranged ones get disadvantage for the duration; the spell also upcasts quite powerfully.

Other spells to consider: True Strike, Locate Object

[DarkKnightJin]

For comparison, Faithful Hound does 4d8 to one enemy at a time in the 15x15 area it can reach, lasts eight hours, and is 4th level. It's also invisible and barks and never does friendly fire. It requires an attack roll, but because it's invisible, it will almost always attack with advantage.

A no-concentration cloud of daggers would do the same damage as the Hound when upcast to level 4 (8d4 vs 4d8). It could hypothetically hit multiple enemies in a round, but it's limited to just a 5x5 area (whereas the hound can attack things in 5 feet, hence the 15x15 coverage.) The main advantage it would have is that it hits automatically, but, again, the hound rarely misses on account of being invisible.

I think it would be a top-tier spell (especially for Bards), but people seem to weirdly ignore Faithful Hound. Of course, it might be more overwhelming at level 2 than the Hound is at level 4; it's not like scaling is some mathematically precise art.

I would be more concerned about Cause Fear. On melee enemies it's pretty hard CC, and even ranged ones get disadvantage for the duration; the spell also upcasts quite powerfully.

Other spells to consider: True Strike, Locate Object

Locate Object wouldn't break anything, but is also squarely non-combat.
True Strike would still suck *all* the d**ks.

[LudicSavant]

I actually rather like Warding Wind, particularly for Eldritch Knights (who don't have a lot of great, non-Intelligence-dependent spells on the Abjuration/Evocation list to choose from at 2nd level).

While all of its effects are situational, there are a lot of them. Going down the list:

First, it deafens you and others in the area. This might seem negligible, but there's actually a lot of abilities that require you to be able to hear the enemy in order for them to affect you (like Demilich's Howl, Chasme's Drone, Vrock's Screech, Gibbering Mouther's Gibbering, Harpy's Luring Song, Mummy Lord's Blasphemous Word, all of an Androsphinx's Roar abilities, a Grung Elite Warrior's Mesmerizing Chirr, a Shadow Mastiff's Terrifying Howl, a Vargouille's Stunning Shriek, a Yeth Hound's Baleful Baying, an Allip's Babble, Divine Word, Vicious Mockery, Dissonant Whispers, Mass Suggestion...) or need an enemy to hear their ally in order to receive buffs (many of the "chieftain" style enemies have something like this).

Second, it extinguishes lights in the area, which could blind enemies dependent on torches and the like in dungeons. Also, an enemy that can't see OR hear you is much more disadvantaged that one who has only ONE of those disadvantages; they can't even tell what square you're in as you're attacking them.

Third, it hedges out vapors and gases. You can walk right through a Fog Cloud, Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud, smoke, inhaled poisons, or whatever.

Fourth, the area's difficult terrain, which is especially good if you're an EK or the like; enemies will have a harder time getting past you and reaching your allies.

Fifth, the attack rolls of ranged weapons have Disadvantage, not only against you but anyone behind you. Another reason this is good on a frontliner like an EK. Against archers this is like having Blur that lasts 10x as long and protects everyone behind you instead of just you. This means that they are strongly encouraged to close in and play your game, at which point they are further disadvantaged by the terrain and such.

Not the sort of thing you cast all the time, but I wouldn't consider it a bad spell.

[Tanarii]

True Strike?

[Bobthewizard]

I actually rather like Warding Wind, particularly for Eldritch Knights (who don't have a lot of great, non-Intelligence-dependent spells on the Abjuration/Evocation list to choose from at 2nd level).

While all of its effects are situational, there are a lot of them. Going down the list:

First, it deafens you and others in the area. This might seem negligible, but there's actually a lot of abilities that require you to be able to hear the enemy in order for them to affect you (like Demilich's Howl, Chasme's Drone, Vrock's Screech, Gibbering Mouther's Gibbering, Harpy's Luring Song, Mummy Lord's Blasphemous Word, all of an Androsphinx's Roar abilities, a Grung Elite Warrior's Mesmerizing Chirr, a Shadow Mastiff's Terrifying Howl, a Vargouille's Stunning Shriek, a Yeth Hound's Baleful Baying, an Allip's Babble, Divine Word, Vicious Mockery, Dissonant Whispers, Mass Suggestion...) or need an enemy to hear their ally in order to receive buffs (many of the "chieftain" style enemies have something like this).

Second, it extinguishes lights in the area, which could blind enemies dependent on torches and the like in dungeons. Also, an enemy that can't see OR hear you is much more disadvantaged that one who has only ONE of those disadvantages; they can't even tell what square you're in as you're attacking them.

Third, it hedges out vapors and gases. You can walk right through a Fog Cloud, Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud, smoke, inhaled poisons, or whatever.

Fourth, the area's difficult terrain, which is especially good if you're an EK or the like; enemies will have a harder time getting past you and reaching your allies.

Fifth, the attack rolls of ranged weapons have Disadvantage, not only against you but anyone behind you. Another reason this is good on a frontliner like an EK. Against archers this is like having Blur that lasts 10x as long and protects everyone behind you instead of just you. This means that they are strongly encouraged to close in and play your game, at which point they are further disadvantaged by the terrain and such.

Not the sort of thing you cast all the time, but I wouldn't consider it a bad spell.

Yes. Warding Wind is the exact type of spell I'm targeting here. It's the spell I was looking at when I came up with this idea. It's a good spell, but not usually good enough to prepare. So I'm hoping they might prepare this instead of something usually regarded as more powerful. And it doesn't seem too open to abuse if I remove concentration.

[Bobthewizard]

I would be more concerned about Cause Fear. On melee enemies it's pretty hard CC, and even ranged ones get disadvantage for the duration; the spell also upcasts quite powerfully./u]

I'm ok leaving Cause Fear on the list. But it's close. The disadvantage to attack and movement control are great. It's a really good spell without concentration. But upcast to 3rd level or higher, it seems much less powerful than the spell Fear. Compared to Fear, with Cause Fear the targets get to keep their weapons, can use their actions to attack (with disadvantage though), can save to end the spell every round, and don't have to flee. With Cause Fear you can be selective, but I'd still take Fear any day.

I'd like to see someone use this as a combo. Cast Fear first, then try Cause Fear on any who made their save. Maybe I'll remove the scaling of Cause Fear if they don't use concentration, so only remove concentration if cast at it's lowest level.

[LudicSavant]

One of the consequences of removing Concentration is that you can't drop Concentration willfully, which is actually important for some spells on this list.

[Sindeloke]

Pretty easy to add a "you may end this spell freely whenever you could act" clause, if you're tweaking the thing anyway.

[Bobthewizard]

Thanks for all of the replies. I'm now removing Dawn too. Without concentration, it would become non-concentration bonus action damage, so about equivalent to Crown of Stars, a 7th level spell.

[Bjarkmundur]

I think you should definitely try it, and then update your first post on what effect it had on character creation in your groups :)

[Yuroch Kern]

I think True Strike would be better served as a bonus action rather than no concentration, as a late two coppers.

[Bobthewizard]

Instead of making a house rule, I am going to give the party these two magic items to try to get the same effects. This will let me trial the mechanics without an official house rule.

Amulet of Water: Gives ability to cast Wall of Water (level 3) or Control Water (level 4) using the wearer’s spell slot. The wearer can also cast Water Breathing once per day without using a spell slot. These do not count towards prepared spells and do not use concentration. The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or cast that spell again.

Amulet of Wind: Gives ability to cast Warding Wind (level 2), Wall of Sand (level 3) or Control Winds (level 5) using the wearer’s spell slot. These do not count towards prepared spells and do not use concentration. The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or cast that spell again.

[Bobthewizard]

I think True Strike would be better served as a bonus action rather than no concentration, as a late two coppers.

I think True Strike as a bonus action is maybe overpowered for a cantrip as it would be automatic advantage every round.

[Rukelnikov]

I think True Strike as a bonus action is maybe overpowered for a cantrip as it would be automatic advantage every round.

Yeah, that may be a lil too good, for a feat rogues will be able to reliably get SA no matter what, and melee rogues will be adding BB or GFB on top of it.

[Yuroch Kern]

I think True Strike as a bonus action is maybe overpowered for a cantrip as it would be automatic advantage every round.


Yeah, that may be a lil too good, for a feat rogues will be able to reliably get SA no matter what, and melee rogues will be adding BB or GFB on top of it.

Possibly. There has been a lot of debate over feat taxes, and even more over the concentration tax, and if the rogue in question is burning their BA on a single delayed advantage on a single unchangeable target that can be disrupted before they can use it in melee, then I would have no problem with it. Technically, they already can do it every round if they manage to use BA for some kind of weapon attack.

[RSP]

Why would you remove the Concentration requirement of Mislead?? It’s a combo of Invisibility and Major Illusion, neither of which I see as a candidate for Conc removal on your list; so if those separately don’t deserve losing Concentration, why does Mislead?

Now Mislead should auto-grant a (Dex) Stealth check to Hide, but that’s a different story; I see no reason to remove Concentration from it (barring just wanting to do crazy Mislead+Invoke Duplicity shananagans.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, that may be a lil too good, for a feat rogues will be able to reliably get SA no matter what, and melee rogues will be adding BB or GFB on top of it.
Yup. Removing concentration allows it to be used with concentration attack roll spells to stick them. Making it a BA makes it a no brainier for any class with concentration and a BA to spare. It'd be the SCAG cantrips all over again.

[Yuroch Kern]

Yup. Removing concentration allows it to be used with concentration attack roll spells to stick them. Making it a BA makes it a no brainier for any class with concentration and a BA to spare. It'd be the SCAG cantrips all over again.

That can be true, although the drawbacks of the Cantrip can still limit it. The Arcane Trickster would gain immensely from it attack wise, I admit, but it can tie up the BA and kinda broadcast obvious committal to attack for those who recognize the gestures. Removing Concentration does what, allows advantage on an attack-type concentration spell next round? That would make Rangers and Paladins really dangerous too.

[Tanarii]

That would make Rangers and Paladins really dangerous too.Yes it would help them. But at the cost of an action. Making it more effective at sticking the spell slot, but not significantly upping dpr on a regular basis. That makes it more useful in the situation where you can attack one round but another, which appears to be its intended purpose.

[Aquillion]

That can be true, although the drawbacks of the Cantrip can still limit it. The Arcane Trickster would gain immensely from it attack wise, I admit, but it can tie up the BA and kinda broadcast obvious committal to attack for those who recognize the gestures. Removing Concentration does what, allows advantage on an attack-type concentration spell next round? That would make Rangers and Paladins really dangerous too.Arcane Trickster can get Advantage from a Bonus action anyway at level 13, so it would only help them at low levels.


Yup. Removing concentration allows it to be used with concentration attack roll spells to stick them. Making it a BA makes it a no brainier for any class with concentration and a BA to spare. It'd be the SCAG cantrips all over again.Suggestion: Make it advantage on the next attack you make as part of an Attack Action. That means that it wouldn't stack with the SCAG cantrips, which IMHO is the real problem here. Having an alternative to them is good - Gishes should be supported. Getting both a SCAG cantrip and advantage as a bonus action and getting to stack them might be a bit much, though.

[Tanarii]

Suggestion: Make it advantage on the next attack you make as part of an Attack Action. That means that it wouldn't stack with the SCAG cantrips, which IMHO is the real problem here. Having an alternative to them is good - Gishes should be supported. Getting both a SCAG cantrip and advantage as a bonus action and getting to stack them might be a bit much, though.
But it also wouldn't stack with attack roll spells. Admittedly that mostly means using it with Chromatic Orb & Ray of Sickness in the original PHB spells, both of which are first level spells.

[Aquillion]

But it also wouldn't stack with attack roll spells. Admittedly that mostly means using it with Chromatic Orb & Ray of Sickness in the original PHB spells, both of which are first level spells.Can't really use it with them anyway, even as a Bonus action, due to the Bonus action rule.

I suppose you could cast it one round and carry it over to the next? But really, if the goal is to help with that, it might be better to completely change its function. Something like...

1 action to cast, no concentration. 1 minute duration.

When you cast it, choose an enemy you can perceive or which you perceived in the last 10 minutes.

Any time during the duration, you can expend it as part of an attack roll against that enemy to get advantage on that attack.

Alternatively, it could be:

Any time during the duration, you can expend it to reroll a single failed attack die against that enemy. You must use the new result.

These would clearly be useful, but most of the time just as a pre-combat buff when you're ambushing the enemy, or when you have a breather to cast it for whatever reason, so it's slightly situational. It'd be nice for Gishes, but one advantage (or one attack reroll) per fight isn't going to break the game. It also makes it more useful to casters, who are more likely to open with one big attack roll that they really want to hit with.

(The "perceived in the last 10 minutes" bit is intentional in order to make it work with scrying / familiar sight effects, which seems thematic for the Divination cantrip. It ought to be valuable to Divination wizards, after all.)

[Tanarii]

Can't really use it with them anyway, even as a Bonus action, due to the Bonus action rule.

I suppose you could cast it one round and carry it over to the next?
Right. Thats the entire point. And definitely still balanced

[Yuroch Kern]

Right. Thats the entire point. And definitely still balanced

Yeah, mostly I think the concern is with the splatbook Cantrips on a AT. I'll admit my table doesn't use them, as we don't think they are particularly mandatory. Also admittedly, while I feel it's better as a BA, removing Concentration would definitely help it to be more useful. Removing more than one thing would probably up it's power beyond what a Cantrip should be, I think.