Character Build: The Eternal Cockroach

[Treantmonk]

A build I've created that does pretty well right from 2 through 20 (level 1 isn't great).

At level 20 HP about 220, can push AC over 40, worst saving throw +11. Lots of resistances and immunities.

Can cast up to 8th level slots, has a pretty good weapon attacks as well, lots of ways to lockdown enemies. Mainly though, just really tough to kill.

I present THE ETERNAL COCKROACH (https://youtu.be/UeTYXJNzbqM)

[Ventruenox]

I watched that video on my commute this morning. I think that what I like the most about your builds is that at every level of play, they are functional characters. The only bit I disagreed with was in selecting both Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade at level 2 instead of a utility spell or ranged attack spell. I get your reasoning for doing so, though.

[Unoriginal]

Alright, just to make sure: that build of yours require this character to have a +3 shield and a +3 plate armor?

Also, how many rounds do you have to cast spells to reach 220 HPs?



EDIT:


Treantmonk, would you like to show how this build does in a fight? I'd be willing to DM one on this forum's play-by-post section.

[Treantmonk]

Alright, just to make sure: that build of yours require this character to have a +3 shield and a +3 plate armor?
Yes, I mention in the video which items I'm including at each level.


Also, how many rounds do you have to cast spells to reach 220 HPs?
2, but not in combat as they are both good duration spells.



Treantmonk, would you like to show how this build does in a fight? I'd be willing to DM one on this forum's play-by-post section.
That is a kind offer, but I'm not really into Pbp. I will probably try the build out in a Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign I'll be playing with my friends soon.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not into PbP either. The idea is to demonstrate the build's capacities in a combat situation for the various forum goers that are curious about it rather than just talking numbers.

I have an arena battle in mind that should both be interesting to read and test any character's survival prowess.

Plus it's only one fight, so it shouldn't take that long. Your Eternal Cockroach, lvl 20, 2 rounds of prep time allowed, vs one monster, statblock without modification, no prep time, and a CR below 20 (still considered near double deadly by Kobold Fight Club, but again the idea is to test the build's capacity to survive).

[Treantmonk]

I'm not into PbP either. The idea is to demonstrate the build's capacities in a combat situation for the various forum goers that are curious about it rather than just talking numbers.

I have an arena battle in mind that should both be interesting to read and test any character's survival prowess.

Plus it's only one fight, so it shouldn't take that long. Your Eternal Cockroach, lvl 20, 2 rounds of prep time allowed, vs one monster, statblock without modification, no prep time, and a CR below 20 (still considered near double deadly by Kobold Fight Club, but again the idea is to test the build's capacity to survive).

I'm not sure how the build will do in a solo situation, it is largely built for lockdown, which is a party strategy. What creature were you considering?

[LudicSavant]

Just to offer a baseline point of comparison, here's a basic Hobgoblin Abjurer 20 (similar to the "Iron Wizard" build in my sig (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45)) with the same gear as Treantmonk's build:


32 AC, all day. (19 base, +3 plate, +3 shield, +5 from Spell Mastery Shield, +1 Cloak of Protection, +1 Ring of Protection). Your chance of being hit is extremely low, and you regenerate some of your ward every turn.
An additional Spell Mastery choice, which can be something like Mirror Image. Or whatever else you wanna have up all day.
Advantage on saves and resistance to damage vs magic (from Abjurer 14).
Saving Face (+5 to a save after seeing the roll, 1/SR, no action). +2 on all saves from the Resistance gear. Advantage on all saves vs magic. Stacking rerolls from Lucky. Proficiency in Int/Wis/Con saves. 16 Dex / 18 Con / 20 Int. So for example, has a +17 Con save with Saving Face, which potentially has Advantage and Lucky too. Even a Dexterity save against a spell would have +10 w/ Advantage/Lucky/Damage Resistance.
162 max HP base vs the Cockroach's 150 base.
An endlessly-regenerating 45 HP ward (starts each combat with 207 HP if not using any spells).
All of the above is just their baseline before they use any actions, bonus actions, Concentration, or spell slots.
9th level spells known instead of 4th (with 8th upcasts). That means things like Contingency, Globe of Invulnerability, Wish, Simulacrum, Clone, etc.
Way more spell slots due to Arcane Recovery + Signature Spells.
The smooth progression that comes from a non-multiclass build.


Alright, just to make sure: that build of yours require this character to have a +3 shield and a +3 plate armor? He's getting at least +8 AC and +2 to all saves from magic gear bonuses (+3 plate, +3 shield, +1 ring, +1 cloak).

[Treantmonk]

Just to offer a baseline point of comparison, here's a basic Hobgoblin Abjurer 20 (similar to the "Iron Wizard" build in my sig (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45)) with the same gear as Treantmonk's build:

- 32 AC, all day. (19 base, +3 plate, +3 shield, +5 from Spell Mastery Shield, +1 Cloak of Protection, +1 Ring of Protection). Your chance of being hit is extremely low, and you regenerate some of your ward every turn.
- An additional Spell Mastery choice, which can be something like Mirror Image. Or whatever else you wanna have up all day.
- Advantage on saves and resistance to damage vs magic (from Abjurer 14).
- Saving Face (+5 to a save after seeing the roll, 1/SR, no action). +2 on all saves from the Resistance gear. Advantage on all saves vs magic. Stacking rerolls from Lucky. Proficiency in Int/Wis/Con saves. 16 Dex / 18 Con / 20 Int.
- An endlessly-regenerating 45 HP ward.
- All of the above is just their baseline before they use any actions, bonus actions, Concentration, or spell slots.
- 9th level spells known instead of 4th (with 8th upcasts). That means things like Contingency, Globe of Invulnerability, Wish, Simulacrum, Clone, etc.
- Way more spell slots due to Arcane Recovery + Signature Spells.
- The smooth progression that comes from a non-multiclass build.

He's getting at least +8 AC and +2 to all saves from magic gear bonuses (+3 plate, +3 shield, +1 ring, +1 cloak).

I like this build, of course, it's a Wizard, so you've found my weakness.

As far as comparing to the Cockroach, let's agree that the saves are not in the same league. Your build has saves ranging from +1 to +13. +11 is the worst save bonus the cockroach has. So them both having advantage on spell saves isn't really comparable. Nevermind the various non-spell saving throws made.

Saving face is a good way to mitigate the weakness in saves, but it's once per rest, so let's not inflate its value.

Finally of course is the 1-20 experience, since Cockroach has advantage on saves vs magic at level 1, and resistance to spell damage at level 8, Iron Wizard has both these at level 14. We see similar disparities in AC and HP as well. I have no problem conceding that there are lots of Wizard builds post level 17 that are going to be superior to pretty much anything else, but most gameplay is at earlier levels.

[LudicSavant]

I like this build

I'm glad you do! :smallsmile:


As far as comparing to the Cockroach, let's agree that the saves are not in the same league. Your build has saves ranging from +1 to +13. +11 is the worst save bonus the cockroach has. So them both having advantage on spell saves isn't really comparable. Nevermind the various non-spell saving throws made. I think it does a bit of a disservice to the above build to only count the IW's base saves, when the bulk of its defenses are active. But yeah, a Paladin is going to have great base saves.

Anyways, just offering a point of comparison for the numbers presented in the video. I don't consider the above build to be competing for the same role (mostly because I see "the guy with the Paladin aura" as a role unto itself; I like to have 1 person in the party have it :smallsmile:). It just offers some perspective on the numbers presented (which probably seem really high to people not used to seeing builds loaded down with Legendary magic items).

Edit: Wait a second. +7 is the worst save that they have on your sheet (+5 paladin aura, +2 magic gear). In order to get +11, you'd need to use your reaction for Arcane Deflection (which is hardly something that just applies all the time; it applies to a single save and prevents casting other than cantrips on the following turn). Or am I missing something on there? If AD is being included, all the more reason that the above comparison should be including the IW's active defenses.


We see similar disparities in AC and HP as well.

I'd actually be curious to see how the HP comparison shakes out.

Edit: Incidentally, is there somewhere where you have the level-by-level progression written up in non-video form, rather than just the level 20 sheet?

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure how the build will do in a solo situation, it is largely built for lockdown, which is a party strategy. What creature were you considering?

I was thinking about Bael.

Though if you want, we could get a couple more people, and try a team battle vs Moloch, who is CR 21.


Maybe LudicSavant and his hobgoblin would like to join the fray?



He's getting at least +8 AC and +2 to all saves from magic gear bonuses (+3 plate, +3 shield, +1 ring, +1 cloak).

Hey, personally, I would absolutely NOT consider what magic items do to be part of a build.

What they get from the magic items isn't the character's abilities, it's just their blings'.

Magic-item dependent "builds" are a relic of the 3.X era, and it runs counter to the 5e design that magic items are straight power boosts, not something you're expected to have as a default.

Especially when a +3 plate alone is already a legendary creation (if self-crafted) or discovery (if found).

In other words, do builds, not blings.

[Talionis]

I do wish this build could access the clone spell.

[LudicSavant]

Hey, personally, I would absolutely NOT consider what magic items do to be part of a build.

What they get from the magic items isn't the character's abilities, it's just their blings'.

Magic-item dependent "builds" are a relic of the 3.X era, and it runs counter to the 5e design that magic items are straight power boosts, not something you're expected to have as a default.

Especially when a +3 plate alone is already a legendary creation (if self-crafted) or discovery (if found).

In other words, do builds, not blings.

Is this meant to be addressing Treantmonk, or me?

In case it was unclear, I was saying that Treantmonk's build is getting +3 plate, +3 shield, Ring and Cloak of Protection. The version of the Iron Wizard in my sig has no magic gear. Version I posted here has it for parity with TM's build.

[Unoriginal]

Is this meant to be addressing Treantmonk, or me?

Mostly to Treantmonk, but it applies to everyone who presents characters as super-powerful when a large part of their performance is due to magic items.


In case it was unclear, I was saying that Treantmonk's build is getting +3 plate, +3 shield, Ring and Cloak of Protection. You'll note the version in my sig has no magic gear.

It was clear. And I'm saying that "having magic items with a combined crafting cost of 122,200 gp and which ingredients require a CR 19+, a CR 13-18, a CR 9-12 and a CR 4-8 encounters" should not be considered part of any build.

[noob]

I was thinking about Bael.

Though if you want, we could get a couple more people, and try a team battle vs Moloch, who is CR 21.


Maybe LudicSavant and his hobgoblin would like to join the fray?



Hey, personally, I would absolutely NOT consider what magic items do to be part of a build.

What they get from the magic items isn't the character's abilities, it's just their blings'.

Magic-item dependent "builds" are a relic of the 3.X era, and it runs counter to the 5e design that magic items are straight power boosts, not something you're expected to have as a default.

Especially when a +3 plate alone is already a legendary creation (if self-crafted) or discovery (if found).

In other words, do builds, not blings.
so you consider that +3 items are legendary but that there is only level 20 people in the streets?

[Unoriginal]

so you consider that +3 items are legendary but that there is only level 20 people in the streets?

...what

No, that'd be utterly ridiculous if I considered that there is only level 20 people in the streets. Which is why I never written something that could even suggest I think that, not only on this forum but in my whole life.

Where did you get that idea from?


Also, noob, it is not *I* who consider that +3 plate armors are legendary. It's Dungeons & Dragon's fifth edition which does.

[noob]

...what

No, that'd be utterly ridiculous if I considered that there is only level 20 people in the streets. Which is why I never written something that could even suggest I think that, not only on this forum but in my whole life.

Where did you get that idea from?


Also, noob, it is not *I* who consider that +3 plate armors are legendary. It's Dungeons & Dragon's fifth edition which does.

If level 20 people that want to carry full plate are as rare or rarer than +3 full plates then naturally over time +3 full plates would gravitate around those: powerful people have an easier time getting things.

[Unoriginal]

If level 20 people that want to carry full plate are as rare or rarer than +3 full plates then naturally over time +3 full plates would gravitate around those: powerful people have an easier time getting things.

And that changes nothing to what I was saying, no to mention it has nothing to do with what you were implying I was suggesting.

Yes, it's possible for a lvl 20 character to acquire a +3 armor. But a lvl 20 character could also kill a dragon and steal its hoard by themselves, or seduce and marry a Marid monarch, or win a Boon from a Fey lord by beating them in a game of chance. That doesn't mean that "has a lots of gold and jewels", "is married to a powerful water genie" or "won a Boon from a Fey" can or should be considered part of a build.

Especially when a lvl 20 character could also fail to kill the dragon, marry the Marrid, beat the Fey or acquire the armor (for example, if a different badass also wanted it).

Builds should not rely on assuming that the character went on specific adventures and succeeded.

[LudicSavant]

A build I've created that does pretty well right from 2 through 20 (level 1 isn't great).

At level 20 HP about 220, can push AC over 40, worst saving throw +11. Lots of resistances and immunities.

Can cast up to 8th level slots, has a pretty good weapon attacks as well, lots of ways to lockdown enemies. Mainly though, just really tough to kill.

I present THE ETERNAL COCKROACH (https://youtu.be/UeTYXJNzbqM)

So for folks who want a summary of what's in the 50 minute video and where those numbers are coming from:

It has 150 HP. TM is using his max level spell slots on Aid and Armor of Agathys to temporarily get to 220.
It has 21 base AC (plate/shield/Defensive fighting style), and is wearing plate with 13 Strength (he advises getting around the movement penalty by riding a mount). The over 40 AC is from magic items (+8 from +3 plate, +3 shield, and a Ring of Protection and Cloak of Protection) + Defensive Flourish (+1d8 bardic inspiration die, requires attack action) + Shield of Faith (+2, Concentration) + Shield (+5, reaction). It could reach 44 AC if he rolled an 8 on his bardic inspiration die. You've got a good number of slots for those low level spells, too. And it's got Arcane Deflection as an alternative to Shield.
Its worst saving throw without magic gear is +5 (just from a Paladin aura with 20 Cha). The extra +6 is from magic items and Arcane Deflection (a reaction that can only apply to 1 saving throw / turn and disables his casting on the following turn, and is competing with his other reactions; it's not the sort of thing you'll just always get).
8th level slots, and 4th level spells known.
Full build is Yuan-ti Pureblood Paladin 8 / Bard 9 / Warlock 1 / Wizard 2, sheet here (https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/10717775/kWbqdJ)
ASIs are max Cha / Sentinel / War Caster

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, it's not going to cut it for most tanking scenarios. Most strong foes would just shove this 13 STR Cockroach to the ground then either jackhammer them into a crater or just move to the squishies while the Cockroach struggles to get up and move under their own armor's weight.

Though to be fair they have +7 in STR (Athletics). So most strong foes would just shove prone the mount the Cockroach uses to go around.

[TheUser]

Making a build this item reliant without making adventure league legal seems like an excercise in futility.

Most DM's won't give you cart blanche to get this specific an array of magic items.

The only way a laundry list this long becomes remotely accessible is with a DM willing to give you whatever you want, in AL or if it's an NPC....

[Chronos]

Could we have the build itself, instead of a YouTube video of the build? A video is really hard to read in detail to examine all the implications.

[Unoriginal]

Could we have the build itself, instead of a YouTube video of the build? A video is really hard to read in detail to examine all the implications.

The sheet is in the latest LudicSavant's post.

[LudicSavant]

To be fair, even if you took out all of the magic items the Cockroach'd still have good AC and saves.

[Unoriginal]

To be fair, even if you took out all of the magic items the Cockroach'd still have good AC and saves.

For a tank of that level? Not really.

[Nhorianscum]

Making a build this item reliant without making adventure league legal seems like an excercise in futility.

Most DM's won't give you cart blanche to get this specific an array of magic items.

The only way a laundry list this long becomes remotely accessible is with a DM willing to give you whatever you want, in AL or if it's an NPC....

His item choices are pretty redundant and can be removed with no impact to efficency. The items are just a showcase.

That said I'm personally not really all that fold of the cockroach. It's extremely vulnerable to skill contests and unlike the stock standard Zealot barb... It can die.

[Unoriginal]

His item choices are pretty redundant and can be removed with no impact to efficency.

Factually incorrect. Without the items, that Cockroach would spend most of their ressources in one fight.

[Keravath]

Is this meant to be addressing Treantmonk, or me?

In case it was unclear, I was saying that Treantmonk's build is getting +3 plate, +3 shield, Ring and Cloak of Protection. The version of the Iron Wizard in my sig has no magic gear. Version I posted here has it for parity with TM's build.

Just a niggle ... but the hobgoblin abjurer in the link seems to only have medium armor proficiency and dumps strength so it won't be wearing +3 plate ... it is only 1AC difference to wear half-plate on a build with lots of potential AC (at least at level 20) but I thought I'd mention it.

[LudicSavant]

Just a niggle ... but the hobgoblin abjurer in the link seems to only have medium armor proficiency and dumps strength so it won't be wearing +3 plate ... it is only 1AC difference to wear half-plate on a build with lots of potential AC (at least at level 20) but I thought I'd mention it.

It's using half-plate already (hence base AC 19, not 20). If it was using full plate, it would be 33 AC, not 32.

[Treantmonk]

I don't consider the above build to be competing for the same role
For sure. I'm not using a 20th level wizard as a big stupid fighter. At least, I shouldn't. Wizards are best at support, not lockdown melee.


Wait a second. +7 is the worst save that they have on your sheet (+5 paladin aura, +2 magic gear). In order to get +11, you'd need to use your reaction for Arcane Deflection (which is hardly something that just applies all the time; it applies to a single save and prevents casting other than cantrips on the following turn). Or am I missing something on there? If AD is being included, all the more reason that the above comparison should be including the IW's active defenses.
Yes, I discuss this in the video. This isn't a wizard, it's a longsword melee character. Being reduced to cantrips is nothing, since we are seldom casting spells in combat. The only real restriction is the use of reaction.


I'd actually be curious to see how the HP comparison shakes out.
With Cockroach, it's basically HP 12 at level 1, then goes back and forth between 10-12 per level through level 20 (at no point under 10 per level), ends at 220.


Edit: Incidentally, is there somewhere where you have the level-by-level progression written up in non-video form, rather than just the level 20 sheet?
No, I wrote myself some notes, but then I do the build on the video. There's no real point to me writing it out afterwards.

[LudicSavant]

With Cockroach, it's basically HP 12 at level 1, then goes back and forth between 10-12 per level through level 20 (at no point under 10 per level), ends at 220.

Let's be clear here. You don't actually have 220 base HP. You max out at 150 hp and are using your highest level spell slots to grant you temporary hit points. Spell slots which you have less of than the IW, and which they can use to grant themselves hit points if they want to. And they have a higher Constitution score, and an Arcane Ward.

Your claim was that there's a disparity at low/med levels. But as early as level 2, your build has 19 hit points, vs the IW having 23 including its ward (before we count its ability to recharge, which they can do with rituals as well as slots). And both have the ability to grant extra hit points via investing resources.

[stoutstien]

This build is fine but with that magic item load out I'd be happy with just about any build.
I think the biggest advancement in DND gaming was the destruction of the magic Mart.

[Theodoxus]

Let's be clear here. You don't actually have 220 base HP. You max out at 150 hp and are using your highest level spell slots to grant you temporary hit points. Spell slots which you have less of than the IW, and which they can use to grant themselves hit points if they want to. And they have a higher Constitution score, and an Arcane Ward.

Your claim was that there's a disparity at low/med levels. But as early as level 2, your build has 19 hit points, vs the IW having 23 including its ward (before we count its ability to recharge, which they can do with rituals as well as slots). And both have the ability to grant extra hit points via investing resources.

Don't forget the 35 points of Lay on Hands and access to less optimal healing like Cure Wounds and Healing Word.

It's not just hard to put down, it has at least as much regeneration as the abjurer, and can do it in larger chunks (and thus fewer rounds wasted recharging).

But then again, the two builds do completely different jobs on the battlefield - though they would make an amazing buddy cop show. "AngelWizard and the Eternal Cockroack". Yeah, I'd watched the f'n shizzle out of that.

[Unoriginal]

All in all, I get the impression this Cockroach is built as a 3.5 character, but with the 5e ruleset.

[noob]

This build is fine but with that magic item load out I'd be happy with just about any build.
I think the biggest advancement in DND gaming was the destruction of the magic Mart.

The destruction of the magic mart also destroyed any form of meaning in ebheron.
Also I can not see the problem with a magic mart: right now the only thing high level people can spend the tons of money they have to help them in fights is on armies which are 324923495346595495923495923495954 times worse than magic marts for any 5e game.
So right now players usually just have piles of money they can not do anything useful with except if they are ready to derail the entire campaign.

Seriously armies are more disruptive than making the entire world be made only of +3 armor.
It could be fixed by making high level stuff in general be tougher against low level creature spam but no 5e decided level 4234234234 super dragons with 3432040 heads could get beaten by a random lone cr 1/3242342344 kobold and was sure to lose to a group of 800 of those.

[stoutstien]

The destruction of the magic mart also destroyed any form of meaning in ebheron.

I think common magic items could be implemented for the setting without completely tossing the balance out the window.
The current crafting rules are really the big problem.

[Unoriginal]

And again with the "money is useless" argument.

Money is to make you rich, not to make you stronger. Buy castles, bribe genies, have week-long parties in you paladin mount's honor. Not everything has to be about getting mechanical benefits.

Magic marts rob magic items of the fact they're supposed to be extraordinary and transform them into nothing but power boosts.

Also, there is nothing wrong with the 5e crafting rules.

[Mikal]

And again with the "money is useless" argument.

Money is to make you rich, not to make you stronger. Buy castles, bribe genies, have week-long parties in you paladin mount's honor. Not everything has to be about getting mechanical benefits.

Magic marts rob magic items of the fact they're supposed to be extraordinary and transform them into nothing but power boosts.

Also, there is nothing wrong with the 5e crafting rules.

So basically 5e gold is the same as the point in whose line is it anyway- they don’t matter.

It was different when they had actual mechanical value, whether as experience in earlier editions or to fuel the robust magic item economy of 5e.

Either way, historically the system was designed for treasure to be *more* than “just money to make you rich”. And the lack of that in 5e is a concern for many, and does make it rather superfluous and useless as an actual goal for many players.

[Boci]

So basically 5e gold is the same as the point in whose line is it anyway- they don’t matter after a certain point.

It was nice when they had actual mechanical value, whether as experience in earlier editions or to fuel the robust magic item economy of 5e.

Either way, historically the system was designed for treasure to be *more* than “just money to make you rich”. And the lack of that in 5e is a concern for many, and does make it rather superfluous and useless as an actual goal for many players.

This barely seems to be a problem. There are optional rules for magic item costs in Xanders, what more do you need?

[Mikal]

This barely seems to be a problem. There are optional rules for magic item costs in Xanders, what more do you need?

I’m refuting the argument that money is it’s own reward in 5e. It’s simply not and is largely useless.

[Boci]

I’m refuting the argument that money is it’s own reward in 5e. It’s simply not.

A reward is what you make of it. If the group feels rewarded by money in a setting with absolutly no magic mart, then money is its own reward. I'm fine with my characters adventuring for money and fame.

[stoutstien]

Also, there is nothing wrong with the 5e crafting rules.
XGTE helped a ton with crafting but it still impossible for alot of crafting. Scrolls and

How do we craft potions other than healing? They exist there for somebody has to be able to make them.

There's no way to make armor in parts.

If I want to build a wagon to haul my party around.

Lots of room for crafting to be expanded

[Mikal]

A reward is what you make of it. If the group feels rewarded by money in a setting with absolutly no magic mart, then money is its own reward. I'm fine with my characters adventuring for money and fame.

That’s nice. That doesn’t change the fact that historically money had an actual mechanical purpose in previous editions, and is largely devalued in the current edition and largely worthless in 5e because of it.

[Boci]

That’s nice. That doesn’t change the fact that historically money had an actual mechanical purpose in previous editions, and is largely devalued in the current edition and largely worthless in 5e because of it.

Yes, the game changes from edition to edition. I don't know what else to tell you. Some people like money being it own reward, yay good for them, some people prefer a magic mart, there's optional rules to address that in Xanders, also yay, good for them.

[Mikal]

Yes, the game changes from edition to edition. I don't know what else to tell you. Some people like money being it own reward, yay good for them, some people prefer a magic mart, there's optional rules to address that in Xanders, also yay, good for them.

So in other words, you had nothing to add. Gotcha thanks

[Boci]

So in other words, you had nothing to add. Gotcha thanks

You had nothing to say to begin with. "Some people like X, the rules of 5th edition don't do X, this is a problem" is not true when there is a varient rule for X.

[Mikal]

You had nothing to say to begin with. "Some people like X, the rules of 5th edition don't do X, this is a problem" is not true when there is a varient rule for X.

Sure whatever you say

[Treantmonk]

Yeah, it's not going to cut it for most tanking scenarios. Most strong foes would just shove this 13 STR Cockroach to the ground then either jackhammer them into a crater or just move to the squishies while the Cockroach struggles to get up and move under their own armor's weight.

Though to be fair they have +7 in STR (Athletics). So most strong foes would just shove prone the mount the Cockroach uses to go around.
Yeah, the DM may choose to ignore the rules and suggest you automatically fall prone when your horse falls prone and can't get up because your armor is heavy, but that's not actually how the rules work.

Now, if you think that your DM is going to employ shove/grapple combos on you, an easy switch on expertise gets Athletics to +13. Personally, I haven't played in that style of campaign.


Let's be clear here. You don't actually have 220 base HP. You max out at 150 hp
I guess that's just the difference of our perspectives. 150 is what is on the character sheet, while 220 is what will be available in combat. I consider the latter to be the more relevant number.

Though I would agree that circumstances may arise where even the 8 hour duration of Aid isn't going to cover you, but it should be enough most of the time. Armor of Agathys is a one hour duration, so I could see more often circumstances when we run out of duration. When that happens, repeat casts will be at lower level, so it will add less, though it will always add some, it's just not ever going to be 150 in actual gameplay. Also, let's remember that while the Cockroach is getting 35 hp from Aid, it is actually granting 105 hp in total. Another reason why IW isn't a good baseline here, these characters do entirely different things.

Post a lockdown tank build. That's a more relevant baseline.


and are using your highest level spell slots to grant you temporary hit points. Spell slots which you have less of than the IW
This observation is confusing to me. Yes, the character has less spell slots than a 20th level wizard, it has spell slots as a 16th level full caster would. However, unlike a Wizard, it's job isn't to cast spells. It's one think to say that a Wizard has more spell slots, it's quite another to say that a Wizard is going to have more available spell slots.


And they have a higher Constitution score
This too, such a confusing observation. Lower Con save and HP, but my Con base score is higher. How is that even relevant? Do you have a use for Con other than HP and Saving throws?


Your claim was that there's a disparity at low/med levels. But as early as level 2, your build has 19 hit points, vs the IW having 23 including its ward (before we count its ability to recharge, which they can do with rituals as well as slots). And both have the ability to grant extra hit points via investing resources.

I'm seeing a +3 Int and Con bonus according to the build in your sig. That means a level 2 Abjurer should have HP 16 +5 from Ward (2 levels + 3 Int), or 21. You didn't mention where the extra HP coming from? I can't figure it out.

Also, I realize it looks better if your character has activated their ward (which potentially they could have done with a 10 minute ritual, but let's face it, probably just cast mage armor, so likely used a spell slot) then compare it to my build before it uses a spell slot. I'm seeing the comparision as 21 to 24. We both know what happens with a few more levels added on as well, so I won't spell it out.

Also, you mention your Ward can be replaced with spell slots, but assuming 2 remaining slots, that's 4 points of recovery maximum, and only if you cast abjuration spells exclusively. I guess you could use arcane recovery with a short rest, but I think the requirement of a short rest is relevant enough to not be omitted.

[Unoriginal]

XGTE helped a ton with crafting but it still impossible for alot of crafting.

No it's not?


Scrolls and

Writing scrolls is described.


How do we craft potions other than healing? They exist there for somebody has to be able to make them.

...you craft potions other than healing like you craft any other magic items. The rules are clear.



There's no way to make armor in parts.

That's true of all editions. D&D treats armor as a whole.

You can easily craft some of an armor, then stop, then come back to continue later, though.



If I want to build a wagon to haul my party around.

What do you mean by that?

[noob]

And again with the "money is useless" argument.

Money is to make you rich, not to make you stronger. Buy castles, bribe genies, have week-long parties in you paladin mount's honor. Not everything has to be about getting mechanical benefits.

Magic marts rob magic items of the fact they're supposed to be extraordinary and transform them into nothing but power boosts.

Also, there is nothing wrong with the 5e crafting rules.

my point was not that money was useless: it is more that it can be useful but it does so in a way that disrupts the game massively more than just giving a +3 plate and a +3 sword and a belt of giant everything to each adventurer does.
Do you want the game to freeze as 800 attack rolls and movements are made each turn?*
do you want each minute of fighting last a few hours of painfully complex tactical spreading and regrouping of soldiers(as well as some additional tactics on the fly) through the use of a command structure with 8 centurions and 80 squad leaders?
Do you want to start simulating the battle chaos that makes the sub leaders not necessarily relay the right orders transmitted from the top by the adventurers?

[Boci]

Do you want the game to freeze as 800 attack rolls and movements are made each turn?

1. Even if there were no rules for mass combat in the DMG, no DM would actually do that and instead come up with something of their own to handle it

2. There are rules for mass combat in the DMG, so the DM can just use that (along with some initiative on NPC motivation)

[noob]

1. Even if there were no rules for mass combat in the DMG, no DM would actually do that and instead come up with something of their own to handle it

2. There are rules for mass combat in the DMG, so the DM can just use that (along with some initiative on NPC motivation)

is it mass combat vs a single target or vs a group of targets(like 5 titans) the adventurers are able to harm(for example the adventurers have frost orb and can hit a massive area and also a 200 foot diameter fog cloud whenever they want)?
Does it takes in account spreading and regrouping against aoe attacks(the spreading) and local charges(regrouping to be more to fight on one place) with elite troops(like a dozen packed knights)?

[Boci]

is it mass combat vs a single target or vs a group of targets(like 5 titans) the adventurers are able to harm(for example the adventurers have frost orb and can hit a massive area and also a 200 foot diameter fog cloud whenever they want)?

I'm prtetty sure the rules for paying 800 people to fight 5 titans is "they tell you to F off", but yes, it can handle a massive group vs. a smaller one. It was probably designed with PCs vs. a mob in mind, but can also handle PCs backed up by an small army reasonable well.


Does it takes in account spreading and regrouping against aoe attacks(the spreading) and local charges(regrouping to be more to fight on one place) with elite troops(like a dozen packed knights)?

No it doesn't, but I'm not sure how that would come. That seems more an army vs. army thing, not the PCs and a mercenary hoard against the usual challenges they face.

[MaxWilson]

So for folks who want a summary of what's in the 50 minute video and where those numbers are coming from:

It has 150 HP. TM is using his max level spell slots on Aid and Armor of Agathys to temporarily get to 220.
It has 21 base AC (plate/shield/Defensive fighting style), and is wearing plate with 13 Strength (he advises getting around the movement penalty by riding a mount). The over 40 AC is from magic items (+8 from +3 plate, +3 shield, and a Ring of Protection and Cloak of Protection) + Defensive Flourish (+1d8 bardic inspiration die, requires attack action) + Shield of Faith (+2, Concentration) + Shield (+5, reaction). It could reach 44 AC if he rolled an 8 on his bardic inspiration die. You've got a good number of slots for those low level spells, too. And it's got Arcane Deflection as an alternative to Shield.
Its worst saving throw without magic gear is +5 (just from a Paladin aura with 20 Cha). The extra +6 is from magic items and Arcane Deflection (a reaction that can only apply to 1 saving throw / turn and disables his casting on the following turn, and is competing with his other reactions; it's not the sort of thing you'll just always get).
8th level slots, and 4th level spells known.
Full build is Yuan-ti Pureblood Paladin 8 / Bard 9 / Warlock 1 / Wizard 2, sheet here (https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/10717775/kWbqdJ)
ASIs are max Cha / Sentinel / War Caster

Thank you LudicSavant for that summary. A fairly standard Forge Cleric 1/War Wizard 19 is fairly comparable to the build you just summarized, but gets Foresight instead of bardic inspiration Defensive Flourish, defense style, and paladin saves. I.e. there's nothing really unusual about that build except for Defensive Flourish, which I tend to dislike because it

(1) it forces you to take the Attack action and make attacks instead of grapples,
(2) if you lose initiative it does nothing on round 1,
(3) it costs valuable Bardic Inspiration dice unless you're a high-level Blade, and especially
(4) you can't use it unless you hit with your attack.

Aside: if you've got sky-high AC already from magic items, it's better to spend your concentration on imposing disadvantage than Shield of Faith. E.g. Blur or Greater Invisibility or Protection From Evil (one of those is generally applicable against almost anything except dragons) or a crowd control spell like Evard's Black Tentacles that can aid your whole party as well as yourself. (But of course Foresight makes Blur/etc. redundant.)

Edit: for the record, the Forge 1/War Wizard 19 with Foresight and Shield of Faith/Haste up and all of that legendary gear is AC 20 (base) + 8 (gear) + 2 (spell) + 2 (War Wizard concentration feature) + 5 (reaction: Shield) = 37, and disadvantage to enemies (i.e. almost crit-immune). +2 to saves from gear, +4 more on reaction: Arcane Deflection, plus advantage from Foresight. Worse saves than Treantmonk's build, comparable AC, much better spellcasting especially since you're doing Cast A Spell in combat instead of Attack + Defensive Flourish.


That’s nice. That doesn’t change the fact that historically money had an actual mechanical purpose in previous editions, and is largely devalued in the current edition and largely worthless in 5e because of it.

Yes, in AD&D it turns into XP when you get it safely home.

There's no reason you can't do the same thing in 5E, but if so you should reduce or eliminate XP-for-killing or require more XP to level up or both.

[Vorpalchicken]

I think overall it is a nice, powerful build that would fit in some campaigns but not all. I don't think it's necessarily a 3e holdover. The magic items to me are more "ideal" items; not unreasonable but not guaranteed.

I also believe that magic items should be buyable in some capacity but not like a shopping mall or anything. It would take some effort to procure a desired item and it may or may not be available. The downtime Xanathar magic acquisition rules is one approach, working with the players for various quests to find what they desire is another.

Even if no magic shopping is allowed most games have far more magic items in them than is suggested as typical by the DMG for example. If you played nothing but published adventures, you players would have on average a great deal of items from which to choose. Homebrew adventures in my experience usually have far, far more magic items. I'm probably the stingiest DM I know.

So the magic item loadout may be a bit presumptuous but given that most campaigns are swimming in items and some games even start at 20th with instructions to "go shopping" at the onset, this isn't so horrible.

Is it possible that this build arose from a situation like "Treantmonk, we have enough main casters. You have to make a tank for the group." "Oh yeah? I'll make them regret that idea!"

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, the DM may choose to ignore the rules and suggest you automatically fall prone when your horse falls prone and can't get up because your armor is heavy, but that's not actually how the rules work.
.

...how is that ignoring the rules? If what you're sitting on falls prone, you fall prone too.

And about getting up, yes you can get up, but what I actually said is that the character would struggle to "get up and move". Wearing an armor with insufficient strength and getting up from being prone costs movement, and if you're a melee tank you need to be able to reach the enemy when they're going for the squishies.

[Citadel97501]

It should also be noted that even plate mail wasn't as heavy as a lot of people think, really its the heat that causes the problem because you wear padding beneath it.

(I was mainly noting this in response to Treantmonk's image of people being stuck on the ground like turtles if their mount falls prone. )

[Mikal]

It should also be noted that even plate mail wasn't as heavy as a lot of people think, really its the heat that causes the problem because you wear padding beneath it.

Which of course means not a thing since we’re discussing the game mechanics

[Damon_Tor]

I present THE ETERNAL COCKROACH (https://youtu.be/UeTYXJNzbqM)

Neat.

I feel like going for bard over fighter is a mistake. It shows your bias: you like casters, which is fine, but consider what you gain from 9 levels of fighter:
-9 extra HP (nearly equivalent to 2 levels of upcasting Aid)
-1 More ASI. Let's say we take "Tough" here. There's 40 more HP at level 20. Legit HP that last all day and aren't erased by anti-magic.
-Action Surge which probably justifies almost anyone dipping fighter. Doesn't directly help you tank.
-Indomitable: your saves need more help than your AC, and here's a reroll 1/day.

That's subclass agnostic.

[Treantmonk]

It shows your bias: you like casters.

I did consider Fighter, I actually discuss the decision between fighter and bard in the video, I've timestamped it. (https://youtu.be/UeTYXJNzbqM?t=1963)

I do aknowledge a bias towards casters though. It's more in my wheelhouse of course.

Edit:
Rewatching it, I definitely see your point, I say how I considered fighter, start listing the various reasons fighter might be effective, and then I say, "but the class I decided to go with was Bard." hmmm...I am happy with the final result however.

[Treantmonk]

...how is that ignoring the rules? If what you're sitting on falls prone, you fall prone too.

"If an effect moves your mount against its will while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you’re knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.

If an effect moves your mount against its will while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you’re knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.

If your mount is knocked prone, you can use your reaction to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall prone in a space within 5 feet it."


Edit: I should point out that this is quoted from PHB "mounted combat"

[LudicSavant]

I'm seeing a +3 Int and Con bonus according to the build in your sig. That means a level 2 Abjurer should have HP 16 +5 from Ward (2 levels + 3 Int), or 21. You didn't mention where the extra HP coming from? I can't figure it out.

Arcane Ward grants twice your Wizard level + Int as HP, not your Wizard level + Int as HP. 2*2+3 = 7, not 5.

Your comparison is mistaken, because you're getting the basic arithmetic and rules wrong here.

Edit:

I guess that's just the difference of our perspectives. 150 is what is on the character sheet, while 220 is what will be available in combat. I consider the latter to be the more relevant number.

What are you talking about? All I did in the thing you quoted was break down / clarify where your numbers are coming from. I did not dismiss the importance of the 220 figure in any way, nor claim that the base value was more important.

I think you have misrepresented my perspective here. I did not say that the 220 number was unimportant. In fact I said something much the opposite; that the "number in combat" is important for the IW too, and should not be ignored if you're going to compare them. The IW has more than 220 HP if they use their own tools. If you ignore their active mitigation but include the Cockroach's, that is not a fair comparison.

Edit2:

This too, such a confusing observation. Lower Con save and HP, but my Con base score is higher. This is such a confusing quote, because the thing you put in italics is definitely not the observation I made, nor is it a statement that I would agree with. :smallconfused:

If you're counting things like temp hp and the like, the IW has more than 220 HP, not less. They even use less resources than the Cockroach to achieve the higher number.

[Damon_Tor]

I did consider Fighter, I actually discuss the decision between fighter and bard in the video, I've timestamped it. (https://youtu.be/UeTYXJNzbqM?t=1963)

I do aknowledge a bias towards casters though. It's more in my wheelhouse of course.

Edit:
Rewatching it, I definitely see your point, I say how I considered fighter, start listing the various reasons fighter might be effective, and then I say, "but the class I decided to go with was Bard." hmmm...I am happy with the final result however.

That's fine obviously, but you're sacrificing 49 actual hitpoints for 15 hitpoints that last 8 hours and 15 temporary hitpoints that last 1 hour.

I might feel differently if you at least took Bard to 10 for magical secrets. Find Greater Steed would solve some of your problems in a way that Find Steed fails.

[LudicSavant]

Thank you LudicSavant for that summary. NP! :smallsmile:

[Unoriginal]

"If an effect moves your mount against its will while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you’re knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.

If an effect moves your mount against its will while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you’re knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.

If your mount is knocked prone, you can use your reaction to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall prone in a space within 5 feet it."


Edit: I should point out that this is quoted from PHB "mounted combat"

Fair, it seems I either skipped by mistake or misremembered this part of the rule.

[MaxWilson]

I think you have misrepresented my perspective here. I did not say that the 220 number was unimportant. In fact I said something much the opposite; that the "number in combat" is important for the IW too, and should not be ignored if you're going to compare them. The IW has more than 220 HP if they use their own tools. If you ignore their active mitigation but include the Cockroach's, that is not a fair comparison.

Agreeing and expanding on this:

It's important to be clear about numbers because in an actual party situation, there will be other sources of Aid and temp HP as well. E.g. Inspiring Leader, Shepherd Druids, the party cleric. 5E is almost always played as a team game, and keeping various kinds of HP makes it easier for readers to see what will synergize with the rest of the team and what your final HP total will be.

Also, since both kinds of extra HP are coming from spells, keeping them separate helps readers to see how much HP you will have left if you get hit with a Dispel Magic/antimagic field.

[stoutstien]

No it's not?



Writing scrolls is described.



...you craft potions other than healing like you craft any other magic items. The rules are clear.



That's true of all editions. D&D treats armor as a whole.

You can easily craft some of an armor, then stop, then come back to continue later, though.



What do you mean by that?
I lost my thought protection during that post.
I meant to say I like how it handles scroll scribing in Xans Compared to potions which have a recipe requirement which have no rules. Same with magic item formulas.

I just realized the crafting time breakdown means if you do find the formula for certain magical heavy armors it's quicker to make that than normal plate armor.

[Damon_Tor]

It also occurs to me that you could take bard to 5 or 6 instead of 9 and take more levels of wizard instead. Mostly because I feel like your spell selection as a bard was pretty meh by comparison. Wizard gives you the ability to choose Mirror Image to provide yet another layer of defense. You also get more out of Arcane Recovery, which means more spells per day.

In fact, looking at the War Wizard's level 10 feature, I kind of wonder if the bard is worth it at all. +2 to AC and all saves that's up (effectively) all the time seems like it would be much better than a conditional +1d8 to AC.

If you drop the bard all together and replace it with levels of wizard, you can take your wizard class to 11, giving you access to level 6 spells, which include contingency which you could use as a 1/day free no-action recasting of Armor of Agathys at level 5. It also includes the Globe of Invulnerability (Immunity to level 1-5 spells cast from more than 10 feet away) and Investiture of Flame/Ice (Actual Immunity to Fire or Cold, so you could swim in lava if you felt like it). It also includes Tenser's Transformation, which is a terrible spell for most wizards, but is worth a look here. It also effects your mount.

The list of non-bard spells you would gain access to includes Haste. Haste offers much more than Shield of Faith for your concentration while also solving your mobility problem and giving you another attack per turn to boot.

[Unoriginal]

I just realized the crafting time breakdown means if you do find the formula for certain magical heavy armors it's quicker to make that than normal plate armor.

No, because you need to make the item (or have it made/buy it) before magicking it.

[stoutstien]

No, because you need to make the item (or have it made/buy it) before magicking it.
I don't see it. My reading is that you are making the plate armor/magical armor at one time.
Far as I can tell the DM just has to give them the recipe and make the ingredients available/ allow them to hunt them down.
I think adamantine armor is the only heavy armor that below rare. Need to dig out DMG.

[MaxWilson]

I don't see it. My reading is that you are making the plate armor/magical armor at one time.
Far as I can tell the DM just has to give them the recipe and make the ingredients available/ allow them to hunt them down.
I think adamantine armor is the only heavy armor that below rare. Need to dig out DMG.

Technically, sure, but in reality would you expect any DM to rule that creating Adamantine Plate is faster and quicker than creating regular plate armor? The virtue in adhering to RAW is in adhering to the Principle of Least Surprise for the sake of the players, but would anyone really be surprised if the DM said, "No, making plate armor magical definitely is not quicker than making it normal"? The RAW are not useful here.

[stoutstien]

Technically, sure, but in reality would you expect any DM to rule that creating Adamantine Plate is faster and quicker than creating regular plate armor? The virtue in adhering to RAW is in adhering to the Principle of Least Surprise for the sake of the players, but would anyone really be surprised if the DM said, "No, making plate armor magical definitely is not quicker than making it normal"? The RAW are not useful here.

which come back to my first point the crafting rules need help. something as simple as a list of formulas to add the loot tables and a sample of a common one to work with would go a lot way. could even label them as trade goods so if they party doesn't want/need it could still be sold.

[MaxWilson]

which come back to my first point the crafting rules need help. something as simple as a list of formulas to add the loot tables and a sample of a common one to work with would go a lot way. could even label them as trade goods so if they party doesn't want/need it could still be sold.

Oh, in that case I agree with you: the crafting rules in 5E are pretty rudimentary, like all other 5E rules that don't involve violence.

[stoutstien]

Oh, in that case I agree with you: the crafting rules in 5E are pretty rudimentary, like all other 5E rules that don't involve violence.
True and I understand a lot of people don't think crafting really has a place in DND where most problems can be solved with violence. I I personally think it allows players to make their characters more well-rounded but it's a hard line to walk.
The forge cleric silvering the guard weapons with a local warebeast problem. Good.

Crafting turning into grinding option for optimize combos. Bad

Seeking out the recipe for potion of growth for the grappler Barbarian? Goodish. The fact that the Barb is stuck in the giant form until it wears ok puts a limit on usefulness but still is a powerful combo. Where if they added rules for drinking multiple potions in a day could have adverse effects would put a limit on it without actually limiting the players options.

I'm personally a fan of saying yes to my players, with stipulations if needed.