Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

[Elves]

They learn 2 9th level spells next time they level up, so that will probably happen before the end.

I'll guess Foresight, since it embodies The New Approach and is the opposite of what they'd have picked at the start.

And maybe Shapechange, since it would be nice to see the pink antler dragon again.

Beyond that, Time Stop and Wish of course have cachet. I could also see Disjunction since Xykon's items proved problematic during the splice attempt but that doesn't feel very thematic.

Non-core options:
Hindsight is basically "infodump: the spell"
Effulgent Epuration would be a good plot device to protect people from powerful attacks by R&X
Instant Refuge is a 9th level evocation that also embodies V's new spellcasting ethic, making it a nice synthesis, and it would help make up for their lack of Teleport and Contingency.

[zimmerwald1915]

Technically, wizards can learn 2 spells of any level they can cast upon level-up. Most players have their wizards pick spells of the highest level they can cast, seeing it as a no-brainer, but nothing says they have to.

That said, if Vaarsuvius were to pick 2 9th-level spells upon level-up to 17th level, she might pick:

Bigby'sBugsby's crushing hand, being fond of this line of spells and needing to take one Evocation as a level-up spell; and
Mordenkainen's Disjunction, for the narrative - not intended - purpose of using on the Crimson Mantle and being permanently drained of all spellcasting.

[Peelee]

My guesses:


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[CriticalFailure]

It would make the most sense to pick at least one evocation for that extra specialty spell slot. Unless that's just a Pathfinder thing and I'm being oblivious.

I like the mage's disjunction on the mantle theory.

[Jasdoif]

I'm gonna take the long shot of "Vaarsuvius won't cast a (non-soul-splice) 9th-level spell before the comic ends".

[understatement]

Wish is way too much of a gamebreaker...?

[Aveline]

I'm gonna take the long shot of "Vaarsuvius won't cast a (non-soul-splice) 9th-level spell before the comic ends".

Hmmm... I think I'm with you on that one. Too many 9th level wizard spells seem utterly broken. (Still not a D&D player.) I seem to recall that Rich has talked about specific spells being narrative-breaking... Summon Banana, pretty please?

[Peelee]

Hmmm... I think I'm with you on that one. Too many 9th level wizard spells seem utterly broken. (Still not a D&D player.) I seem to recall that Rich has talked about specific spells being narrative-breaking... Summon Banana, pretty please?

True Resurrection.

From a storytelling point of view, the "Why didn't this person do X?" questions are sort of a waste of time. They didn't do that because something stopped them, obviously. Does it matter what that something was, really? Dragons don't have access to 17th level clerics because they just don't. That's not the way the world works. Assume, if you want, that she asked the Oracle, and the Oracle said there isn't anyone who would be willing to cast it for a black dragon.

And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

(Also, with regards to the Gating a Solar thing: The "fair trade" price a Solar would ask for resurrecting an evil dragon would simply be the mother dragon's own life—because that would be a Good act of self-sacrifice, and the Solar would approve of that. There's no reason to think the mother dragon would be willing to pay that price...and even if she was, she would insist on punishing V first, since her son was relatively weak.)

[Aveline]

True Resurrection.

Pretty thank-you.

[Jasdoif]

True Resurrection.Similarly, teleportation.




Is there any particular part of the D&D 3e rules that "gets in the way" of your story more consistently than others? I mean, it doesn't really get in the way because it's swept aside the moment it becomes inconvenient, but I hope the question makes sense.True Resurrection, without a doubt. It's literally impossible for a mortal character to ever be completely out of the story because of its existence. Actually, all forms of resurrection are kind of a pain in the ass, though the other versions have roadblocks you can throw in the path. But because True Resurrection exists, every character death is met with, "Well, they could still come back!" forever.

Also, Teleport. Characters who blip right to their end destination do not for an engaging journey make. I will note that the Order's had access to teleportation effects, but not on their own terms (Shojo's wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html), the soul splice with Ganonron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)).

[Living Oxymoron]

I am placing my bet on that
Distant Inferno spell, that looked like an unfinished work in the book. Wouldn't it be awesome if that spell came back to the story as one of the strongest spells around? :smallbiggrin:


Wish is way too much of a gamebreaker...?

Gamebreaker, maybe. But it would certainly break the narrative with the several possibilities that the spell contains. I'm almost sure that Burlew won't allow his characters (especially the PCs) to use that kind of spell.

[Elves]

Mordenkainen's Disjunction, for the narrative - not intended - purpose of using on the Crimson Mantle and being permanently drained of all spellcasting.
That would be extremely cool.


It would make the most sense to pick at least one evocation for that extra specialty spell slot.
Oh, duh. Going on the assumption that V will avoid blasting spells, that leaves Crushing Hand, Instant Refuge, Chain Contingency, Binding Chain of Fate, Eye of Power, and Invoke Magic.

Chain Contingency would definitely make sense.

Invoke Magic could make sense since the most powerless V has ever felt is in the ABD's antimagic field, and the fact that it only allows a low level spell could be a chance to show the utility of 'weak' spells, which seems to be a theme for V now.

Crushing Hand is likely but seems a bit boring, since we've seen V cast hand spells since the start, so I hope not.


Wish is way too much of a gamebreaker...?
I feel like this is a common misconception. It's got well defined limits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) and explicitly says asking for more is dangerous; its main use is spell duplication.


Hmmm... I think I'm with you on that one. Too many 9th level wizard spells seem utterly broken. (Still not a D&D player)
So pick ones that aren't broken. Many lower level spells are utterly broken too, Rich's tactic so far has mainly been to not use them.

Since V has always wanted ultimate arcane power and so on, it seems like it would be good to see what they do with it now that their perspective has changed. And 1 level up doesn't seem improbable with 1.25 books left.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm gonna take the long shot of "Vaarsuvius won't cast a (non-soul-splice) 9th-level spell before the comic ends".

V has a CL of 16 according to the class and level geekery thread, meaning that if V gains a level from having fought the vampires and the big undead worm then they'll have a CL of 17 so they can cast 9th level spells. If you think about it, the last couple quests have just been piles and piles of XP due to how many rando soldiers they killed and high PC-class-leveled villains they've stopped. It wouldn't be surprising to me that V could get 9th level spell slots, but it seems that they gain spells through research only (V got Mind Blank in Tinkertown) and unless the dwarves have a library that has notes on 9th level spells, they're out of luck.

[zimmerwald1915]

V has a CL of 16
17. "CL" means "caster level." She has a Wizard level of 16, and an ECL (effective character level) of 16. The extra CL is from an item.

[CriticalFailure]

Is ecl used for both effective caster level and effective character level when there's level adjustment and stuff? why the overloading? or am I just confuse

[Jasdoif]

Is ecl used for both effective caster level and effective character level when there's level adjustment and stuff? why the overloading? or am I just confuseCL (caster level) and ECL (effective character level) are different terms, with different acronyms.

ECL only matters when dealing with experience, so it needs to be distinguished from a character's actual character level (that you'd use for DC calculations or...just about anything else that involves character level); magical effects will have whatever caster level (including bonuses from items etc.) when they're cast, so there's no need for that distinction. And I don't recall ever seeing an acronym for "character level", although sometimes it's shortened to "level" with assumed context (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html).

[Doug Lampert]

Wish is EASY for Rich to control and a terrible, bad, cripplingly horrible choice for V. Consider the conversation:

V: Great! Now that I have leveled up I gain access to two of the most powerful magics known. I must take an evocation and will take Crushing Hand because it fits better than most evocation both with being party friendly and with my general theme! Now, for my SECOND spell I shall take Wish! Bwahaha, fear my awesome Power, as soon as I gain another 5,000 XP I'll be able to do one thing off a list. Once....

Roy: Wait, you mean you've taken a spell you can't actually cast?

V: Correct Sir Greenhilt, but after another 4 or 5 level appropriate encounters I shall be prepared to perform a mighty feat of magic.

Roy: You do realize that we're rapidly approaching the endgame? We don't HAVE another 4 or 5 level appropriate combat encounters to go before we need to finish this? What are you going to do with those high level slots?

V: Well, I get one bonus slot for evocation, I must use it for Crushing Hand. I get one slot for level 17, I will use it for Crushing Hand. And as I started with 18 Int, increased it to 22 via levels, and to 28 via my headband, I receive a bonus slot for my prodigious intellect, which I shall use for another instance of Crushing Hand.

Roy: .... You're kidding right?

V: No. Everyone on the Internet says Wish is the best spell to take at level 17.

Roy: Not Shapechange?

V: We have no one with the knowledge skills to be aware of good forms to assume.

Roy: Not Disjunction, I mean, it's not like we're fighting a couple of spell-casters with loads of magic items.

V: I might permanently lose my spell-casting ability were I to attempt disjunction with an artifact in the area of effect.

Roy: So, we have Crushing Hand, Crushing Hand, and Crushing Hand.... I guess we've still got all your lower level slots.

V: Indeed Sir Greenhilt.

Edited to add:
Roy: Well, at least we won't confuse the readers with a new spell they are unfamiliar with.

[Doug Lampert]

Just because I have too much time on my hands:

Rich tends to mostly stick to the SRD, V has banned Conj and Necro:
Thus assuming V reaches level 17 one spell must be:
Crushing Hand, Meteor Swarm, or non SRD.

The other spell can be any one of:

Freedom
Imprisonment
Mage’s Disjunction
Prismatic Sphere
Foresight
Shades
Weird
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Power Word Kill
Etherealness
Shapechange
Time Stop
Wish

[Elves]

V: I might permanently lose my spell-casting ability were I to attempt disjunction with an artifact in the area of effect.

You know, I really like this possibility. Great suggestion zimmerwald.

[zimmerwald1915]

You know, I really like this possibility. Great suggestion zimmerwald.
I can't take credit, the theory's been floating around for years, long enough that I don't remember in whose post I first saw it.

[Pyron]

My guess for V's 9th level spell would be...

(•_•) / ( •_•)>⌐■-■ / (⌐■_■),

Shades

[Quellian-dyrae]

What about Freedom? Not necessarily to cast personally, but to scribe a scroll of to give to Haley (who we know has solid UMD since she got a bunch of wands). It's far from guaranteed, there's definitely reasons it couldn't work, but if it offered even the chance to work around the fiends' soul trap thing in a critical situation, it might well be worth the gamble.

[magic9mushroom]

I feel like this is a common misconception. It's got well defined limits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) and explicitly says asking for more is dangerous; its main use is spell duplication.

This is one of the less worthwhile uses of Wish. In a dire emergency, maybe, but it's hugely expensive and there are usually ways around needing it (on the other hand, Miracle is both better than Wish at this - up to 7th-level off-list - and doesn't charge XP for the privilege, so it's actually quite useful for this purpose). Here are the things for which you actually want Wish:

1) It can give inherent bonuses, and is the least-expensive way to get them if you can't buy tomes.
2) It is the one explicit way to brute-force through anti-teleport protections. Even epic magic needs ad-hoc modifiers to do this.
3) It can create magic items - potentially extremely-powerful magic items - ex nihilo. This is generally not worth it if you have to pay the XP cost (though there are some potential exceptions, like a scroll of six True Resurrections), and it can't be done with item-sourced Wishes, but this is the reason SLA Wish is game-breaking and infinite-loop TO territory.

[Elves]

Limited Wish is totally worth it for replicating divine magic (Death Ward anyone). 300xp is nothing even by 13th.

I'd forgotten about creating scrolls. Are there non-scroll magic items people actually use Wish for, other than cheesy stuff like candles? Money's a lot easier to get than xp.

[BrotherHanson]

You know, I really like this possibility. Great suggestion zimmerwald.

Wouldn't that be perfect, really? V sacrifices spellcasting to save the party (and the world). Bonus if doing so ruins some plan the Fiends have that involves V still being a spellcaster.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, when V had access to a crap ton of spells, what lvl 9 spells did he use?

Time Stop came first...

And then... Bigsby's Crushing Hand.

And that was all.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, when V had access to a crap ton of spells, what lvl 9 spells did he use?

Time Stop came first...

And then... Bigsby's Crushing Hand.

And that was all.
And disjunction

[heavyfuel]

Well, when V had access to a crap ton of spells, what lvl 9 spells did he use?

Time Stop came first...

And then... Bigsby's Crushing Hand.

And that was all.

Are we forgetting Shhpshnsh?

Sorry, let me clear my throat. AHEM. Shapechange

[Squire Doodad]

Actually, I find that what V had before the Soul Splice to be far more enticing of an option.
I'm talking about what V offered Z to get in exchange for the Fly spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html).
This suggests that V has in his possession Meteor Swarm, Time Stop and Wish.
...okay, fine, V probably won't use Meteor Swarm unless he is out of viable options, and he won't be able to qualify for Wish in time unless they get a convenient last-minute miniboss (Giant Dire Frost Archdaemonic Grandflea from Nowhere?). However, assuming Rich hasn't forgotten this I'd be almost willing to be that V will take Time Stop. Rich didn't plan far enough ahead for those three to be used, but he is the sort of person to consider taking a page from his older books for plot devices.

Anyways, of those three I'd say Time Stop, maaaybe Meteor Swarm. Wish seems unlikely.

Shapechange also sounds good.

Some assortment of Time Stop, Shapechange, Bigsby's Crushing Hand and Disjunction. I doubt they'd use Gate.

[Elves]

The non-evocation one is fairly variable, but evocation has fewer choices. Basically I hope that we get one of the non-core options instead of just plain ol' Crushing Hand.


Wouldn't that be perfect, really? V sacrifices spellcasting to save the party (and the world).

Well, it wouldn't be satisfying if it actually solved everything, but it would be a great end to V's arc and would certainly spice things up near the end.

[Squire Doodad]

The non-evocation one is fairly variable, but evocation has fewer choices. Basically I hope that we get one of the non-core options instead of just plain ol' Crushing Hand.



Well, it wouldn't be satisfying if it actually solved everything, but it would be a great end to V's arc and would certainly spice things up near the end.

I mean, it makes sense that V's price for ultimate arcane power is to ultimately lose arcane power. On the other hand, given that Belkar has been designated for a climatic death at the end of Book 7 by the Oracle, it would be a bit much to have two members of the Order forced to make the ultimate sacrifice, even if they are two very different kinds.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, when V had access to a crap ton of spells, what lvl 9 spells did he use?

Time Stop came first...

And then... Bigsby's Crushing Hand.

And that was all.

I'll clarify in that I only looked at the fight with Xykon. I might have missed a spell or misidentified one. Good points about the spells cast during the rest of the time V had the splices.

[Kornaki]

Actually, I find that what V had before the Soul Splice to be far more enticing of an option.
I'm talking about what V offered Z to get in exchange for the Fly spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html).
This suggests that V has in his possession Meteor Swarm, Time Stop and Wish.

Sorry, V doesn't actually have any of the ninth level spells listed there (at least not at the time of the comic). They were just pointing out that Z was being obnoxious in their refusal to trade the fly spell. It would be like if you were negotiating to buy a used car and all your offers were rejected with no counteroffer, you might say "what do you want, a million bucks?" With no intention of paying that or even claiming you actually possess that much money

[ijuinkun]

Is it not possible that V had the spells (in the sense of having them in a spellbook from which Z could hypothetically copy them) while not yet being able to cast them due to level restrictions? IIRC, V had only just gained access to 7th level spells as of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html.

[MultitudeMan]

Is it not possible that V had the spells (in the sense of having them in a spellbook from which Z could hypothetically copy them) while not yet being able to cast them due to level restrictions? IIRC, V had only just gained access to 7th level spells as of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html.

The Class and Level Geekery thread is pretty convinced that the Order all hit level 9 in that strip, so V gained 5th level spells then, not 7th.

[Goblin_Priest]

Is it not possible that V had the spells (in the sense of having them in a spellbook from which Z could hypothetically copy them) while not yet being able to cast them due to level restrictions? IIRC, V had only just gained access to 7th level spells as of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html.

Ugh, sure, maybe V bought some of those randomized spell packs joked about, and in there was a bunch of level 9 spells. But as the other guy said, I seriously doubt V had those spells, it was just to point out that Z wouldn't trade anything for it.

[Psyren]

Definitely Crushing Hand for his specialist slot if we're sticking to core.

The others will either be Disjunction (for the narratively satisfying reasons already stated) or Time Stop (he has firsthand experience with how useful it is.)

Wish and Shapechange are probably out.

[hamishspence]

Shapechange is definitely out - it's Transmutation, and V barred Transmutation and Necromancy.

[zimmerwald1915]

Shapechange is definitely out - it's Transmutation, and V barred Transmutation and Necromancy.
Oh you. oh you.

[SlashDash]

I have a hunch V would avoid the spells used during the Soul Splice - specifically the Shapechange it used to kill the Dragon.

Let's face it, that isn't exactly a happy memory for him\her.

I also don't think that Meteor Swarm is likely.
Only Xykon cast it, right?
It's kind of his signature spell.

I would guess Crushing Hand and either Prismatic Sphere or Dominate Monster.

Both being upgraded versions of spells they cast already.

[Doug Lampert]

Shapechange is definitely out - it's Transmutation, and V barred Transmutation and Necromancy.

V banned conjuration and necromancy. Conjuration is where Teleport lives in 3.5, and we know he can't cast the spell because it's on his banned list. Shapechange is fine.

[Reboot]

Sorry, V doesn't actually have any of the ninth level spells listed there (at least not at the time of the comic). They were just pointing out that Z was being obnoxious in their refusal to trade the fly spell. It would be like if you were negotiating to buy a used car and all your offers were rejected with no counteroffer, you might say "what do you want, a million bucks?" With no intention of paying that or even claiming you actually possess that much money

Well, true and false - V probably didn't have them for real, no, but a spell Zed couldn't cast for ages yet wouldn't be that tempting even as a genuine offer, especially with the costs of notating a 9th level spell in one's spellbook.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, true and false - V probably didn't have them for real, no, but a spell Zed couldn't cast for ages yet wouldn't be that tempting even as a genuine offer, especially with the costs of notating a 9th level spell in one's spellbook.

That's a good point. It'd be like offering a $1 million yatch in exchange for a $20k car - great trade, until you realise you can't afford the mooring fees and you have no idea of how to use a yatch in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Well, true and false - V probably didn't have them for real, no, but a spell Zed couldn't cast for ages yet wouldn't be that tempting even as a genuine offer, especially with the costs of notating a 9th level spell in one's spellbook.

So even the flip side works as a point against V having it. This amuses me.

[Fish]

It’ll be a Bugsby spell of unlikely function which he has acquired and prepared with uncanny, Batman-like foresight; eg, Bugsy’s Goblin-Cleric-Punching Fist.

[Ghosty]

...Gamebreaker, maybe. But it would certainly break the narrative with the several possibilities that the spell contains. I'm almost sure that Burlew won't allow his characters (especially the PCs) to use that kind of spell.

We should know relatively quickly, when the narrative returns to Team Evil: if RedCloak can cast Implosion, he should be able to cast Miracle.

EDIT: I like Disjunction too, for the reasons Zim stated. What's V barred from again? Conjuration and Necromancy, right? (I didn't see that Doug answered this already, above) I like Time Stop, but I think a Bugsby's Hand spell better fits what we've seen from hir. I see that Imprisonment allows a Will save.

[Goblin_Priest]

I have a hunch V would avoid the spells used during the Soul Splice - specifically the Shapechange it used to kill the Dragon.

Let's face it, that isn't exactly a happy memory for him\her.

I also don't think that Meteor Swarm is likely.
Only Xykon cast it, right?
It's kind of his signature spell.

I would guess Crushing Hand and either Prismatic Sphere or Dominate Monster.

Both being upgraded versions of spells they cast already.

Meteor Swarm would be a bad call, given how Xykon gloats about his protections from fire and his willingness to shoot himself with meteor swarms regularly.

Time Stop is just such an awesome spell, though yea might be gimmicky to see V use it repeatedly. Crushing hand is a solid choice that fits with V's love for Hand spells, and the fact he used it before, without being too gimmicky. Mass Hold Monster is solid too. Freedom, Mage's Disjunction, and Prismatic Sphere too.

[Ghosty]

Piling onto Zim's repeated theory about Disjunction, it would be a way to force The Dark One to come down in person if RedCloak was wonky about playing ball with Thor, et al's plan involving the purple quiddity. Disjoin the Crimson Mantle, it gets destroyed, then the Dark One has a near certain chance of showing up to deal with whoever destroyed it.

Of course, the Dark One would probably kill everything first, then ask questions, but it's a start.

[CriticalFailure]

In terms of smiting, what flavor stuff on top of preventing V from casting might the Dark One do? Turn V purple?

[Goblin_Priest]

Yea Mage's Disjunction has lots of narrative potential.

[zimmerwald1915]

yatch
*Shudder*

And now for something completely different: what is a boat? A hole in the water into which you pour money.

[Peelee]

*Shudder*

And now for something completely different: what is a boat? A hole in the water into which you pour money.

That's why you get a ship instead, those tend to make you money.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Shipping!? I don't want to write fanfiction!

[understatement]

If it's not Bugsby's lich-swatting hand, then riot!!!!!!!

Honestly? I don't think he's zhe's reaching ninths. The villains are supposed to have a large enough edge on the heroes so that ideally, we wouldn't know what way the battle would swing.

In other words, it lowers the stakes by too much of a significant amount.

feel free to laugh after V pulls out a 9th

[InvisibleBison]

Disjoin the Crimson Mantle, it gets destroyed, then the Dark One has a near certain chance of showing up to deal with whoever destroyed it.

This doesn't seem likely to me. I don't see why having an artifact he made be disjoined would grant the Dark One an exception to the rules prohibiting gods from acting directly on the Material Plane.

[Reboot]

This doesn't seem likely to me. I don't see why having an artifact he made be disjoined would grant the Dark One an exception to the rules prohibiting gods from acting directly on the Material Plane.

Well, for one thing, the Dark One isn't party to those rules. They're a set of treaties between the pantheons, not a literal barrier - and just as there are no formal lines of communication (as Thor lamented to Durkon), he's not signed up to any of them. [cf Hel trying to weasel around them]

[CriticalFailure]

This doesn't seem likely to me. I don't see why having an artifact he made be disjoined would grant the Dark One an exception to the rules prohibiting gods from acting directly on the Material Plane.


It's standard in D&D and Pathfinder that successfully disjoining an artifact is very difficult, and if it works the caster must make a will save or loose all casting ability and is very very likely to draw the ire of powerful beings associated with the artifact. Based on the universe running on 3.5e rules I assume the gods have some sort of artifact related agreement that fulfills these criteria, and that those who succeed in disjoining artifacts can expect to get smote.

[InvisibleBison]

Well, for one thing, the Dark One isn't party to those rules. They're a set of treaties between the pantheons, not a literal barrier - and just as there are no formal lines of communication (as Thor lamented to Durkon), he's not signed up to any of them. [cf Hel trying to weasel around them]

If the Dark One isn't subject to the rules, he also isn't protected by them. Showing up on the Material Plane and attacking a high level cleric of Thor seems like a good way to get Thor to attack you, and while we know that Thor isn't likely to do that, there's no reason to think the Dark One does.


It's standard in D&D and Pathfinder that successfully disjoining an artifact is very difficult, and if it works the caster must make a will save or loose all casting ability and is very very likely to draw the ire of powerful beings associated with the artifact.

In 3.5, disjoining an artifact merely "attract[s] the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm). There's no reason to think that would necessarily be the Dark One. Of course, even if the spell didn't alert him directly the Dark One would almost certainly notice the Crimson Mantle being disjoined through some other method (probably portfolio sense).


Based on the universe running on 3.5e rules I assume the gods have some sort of artifact related agreement that fulfills these criteria, and that those who succeed in disjoining artifacts can expect to get smote.

This, I highly doubt. Anyone capable of casting disjunction is either a high-level cleric or likely adventuring in the company of a high-level cleric. It seems quite unlikely that the gods would allow one another to go smiting their most powerful servants under any circumstances.

[CriticalFailure]

If the Dark One isn't subject to the rules, he also isn't protected by them. Showing up on the Material Plane and attacking a high level cleric of Thor seems like a good way to get Thor to attack you, and while we know that Thor isn't likely to do that, there's no reason to think the Dark One does.

In 3.5, disjoining an artifact merely "attract[s] the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm). There's no reason to think that would necessarily be the Dark One. Of course, even if the spell didn't alert him directly the Dark One would almost certainly notice the Crimson Mantle being disjoined through some other method (probably portfolio sense).

This, I highly doubt. Anyone capable of casting disjunction is either a high-level cleric or likely adventuring in the company of a high-level cleric. It seems quite unlikely that the gods would allow one another to go smiting their most powerful servants under any circumstances.

"Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.) Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device."

This is the same as in PF, and it's not an unreasonable jump to say that the powerful being with an interest or connection to the Crimson Mantle is The Dark One. And it would make sense that the gods wouldn't want each other messing with their cool sparkly artifacts - so they have an agreement that to deter powerful mortals from messing with their cool toys, limited smiting is game if someone destroys their artifact. Even if this isn't the case, it is likely that a deity whose artifact has been destroyed willl be using any loophole they can find to mess with them back.

[Jannoire]

My vote is on Disjunction... But not for the crimson mantle...
My guess involves Xykon's soul-hidey-place...

[Goblin_Priest]

My vote is on Disjunction... But not for the crimson mantle...
My guess involves Xykon's soul-hidey-place...

That does seem like a pretty straightforward tool against the Phylactery.

Also, maybe disjoining both the Crimson Mantle and the Loki Sucks hammer could summon both of these gods to talk things through?

[Squire Doodad]

That does seem like a pretty straightforward tool against the Phylactery.

Also, maybe disjoining both the Crimson Mantle and the Loki Sucks hammer could summon both of these gods to talk things through?

That's the most innovative idea I've heard for pacifying a raging Redcloak who isn't willing to listen to reason.


It’ll be a Bugsby spell of unlikely function which he has acquired and prepared with uncanny, Batman-like foresight; eg, Bugsy’s Goblin-Cleric-Punching Fist.

Bugsby's Gate-Sealing-Fist is one of the big candidates, though its unclear how it will be used.

[AutomatedTeller]

Timestop seems unlikely to me, because just for narrative reasons, it means that V is acting alone for a fair amount, not as part of a team.

Unless V can use it to circumvent the IFFC (IFCC?) when they next call, I suppose. Get called, stop time, leave a message for Roy, buff the party some, cast a fireball maybe? Not even clear that would work.

[Squire Doodad]

Timestop seems unlikely to me, because just for narrative reasons, it means that V is acting alone for a fair amount, not as part of a team.

Unless V can use it to circumvent the IFFC (IFCC?) when they next call, I suppose. Get called, stop time, leave a message for Roy, buff the party some, cast a fireball maybe? Not even clear that would work.

That'd be clever. I guess that's assuming there is a single "in between round" activation time that lets V cast the spell.

[Ghosty]

Timestop seems unlikely to me, because just for narrative reasons, it means that V is acting alone for a fair amount, not as part of a team.

Unless V can use it to circumvent the IFFC (IFCC?) when they next call, I suppose. Get called, stop time, leave a message for Roy, buff the party some, cast a fireball maybe? Not even clear that would work.

Since the IFCC can stop time with their soul offers, and they sound like very powerful entities within the Lower Planes, I'd just expect them to be flatly immune to Time Stop. TS just seems like the spell everyone rushes to grab at 9th level though, given the vagaries and xp cost for Wish.

The text for Disjunction's been posted already. I'd expect "takes an interest" to mean "shows up where the artifact was destroyed." And if not TDO, then who?

Edit: just want to add: disjoining the hammer so Thor'll show up too, is genius.

[Doug Lampert]

Since the IFCC can stop time with their soul offers, and they sound like very powerful entities within the Lower Planes, I'd just expect them to be flatly immune to Time Stop. TS just seems like the spell everyone rushes to grab at 9th level though, given the vagaries and xp cost for Wish.

The text for Disjunction's been posted already. I'd expect "takes an interest" to mean "shows up where the artifact was destroyed." And if not TDO, then who?

Edit: just want to add: disjoining the hammer so Thor'll show up too, is genius.

Despite the existence of NPCs allegedly immune to Time Stop, it's a meaningless ability. Time Stop has a range of self, it doesn't actually stop time, it extremely hastes you. The rest of the universe is totally unaffected so there's nothing to be immune to.

Also: Time Stop has a casting time. V can no more cast it in response to being grabbed by the IFCC prior to going to the lower planes than V can do anything else after the grab starts. The spell does not take effect till after it is cast.

[Kish]

No instantaneous spells take place during Time Stop; Vaarsuvius could not use it to cast a fireball, and conversely I don't find the "it would mean Vaarsuvius acting alone too much" argument terribly compelling. In practice, it would mean what it meant when Spliced-Vaarsuvius cast it: a single panel in which Vaarsuvius casts 3-6 self-only buffing spells.

[zimmerwald1915]

In practice, it would mean what it meant when Spliced-Vaarsuvius cast it: a single panel in which Vaarsuvius casts 3-6 self-only buffing spells.
Which is neither necessary as "more buffing happens off-panel," nor interesting to watch.

[Jasdoif]

Despite the existence of NPCs allegedly immune to Time Stop, it's a meaningless ability. Time Stop has a range of self, it doesn't actually stop time, it extremely hastes you. The rest of the universe is totally unaffected so there's nothing to be immune to.Depends on how the alleged "immunity" is implemented, I think. If it's resolved as "you can take actions normally during the apparent time of a nearby creature's time stop or similar effect", it's really a free time stop when someone else casts time stop. With allies that can cast time stop (and possibly multiple creatures with this ability in a party), this would be fairly strong as you can get the supercharged action economy without paying for it yourself.

That would, of course, mean "immune to time stop" is a really bad description....

[Doug Lampert]

Depends on how the alleged "immunity" is implemented, I think. If it's resolved as "you can take actions normally during the apparent time of a nearby creature's time stop or similar effect", it's really a free time stop when someone else casts time stop. With allies that can cast time stop (and possibly multiple creatures with this ability in a party), this would be fairly strong as you can get the supercharged action economy without paying for it yourself.

That would, of course, mean "immune to time stop" is a really bad description....

IIRC it's Elminster who has the immunity to time stop, and what you describe is almost certainly what they meant, but it is not given in the rules.

Technically, all being immune to timestop means is that he can't benefit from the spell.

If we go with the intended reading: What's the range on this ability? Does anyone on any plane anywhere casting timestop suddenly give the big MartyStu 1d4+1 additional rounds of action? Or do they need to be someone in the same novel? Or does it only apply if they're on the same plane? Or within some range that is picked by the author at the time that the spell is cast? Because there's nothing in the ability to tell you any of this. He's just "immune".

[Goblin_Priest]

IIRC it's Elminster who has the immunity to time stop, and what you describe is almost certainly what they meant, but it is not given in the rules.

Technically, all being immune to timestop means is that he can't benefit from the spell.

If we go with the intended reading: What's the range on this ability? Does anyone on any plane anywhere casting timestop suddenly give the big MartyStu 1d4+1 additional rounds of action? Or do they need to be someone in the same novel? Or does it only apply if they're on the same plane? Or within some range that is picked by the author at the time that the spell is cast? Because there's nothing in the ability to tell you any of this. He's just "immune".

I'd say, within 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level of the guy casting Time Stop. ;)

[danielxcutter]

Disjunction isn't a terrible choice, and not just for the reasons already mentioned. One of the biggest reasons I hear PCs don't use it much is that it wrecks precious loot, but if V's up against the Big X and his unholy Team Evil, loot is probably the last thing on their mind, especially when said loot is giving ginormous bonuses of various types(Boots of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Protection, etc.) and it also strips them butt-naked of buffs.

Meteor Swarm is very unlikely; they've seen Xykon tank one of his own Meteor Swarms at point-blank range. Same for any other [Fire] spell, as well as [Electricity] since one of the splices mentioned liches are immune to that.

Time Stop isn't a bad choice; extra time for buffs and/or Delayed Blast Fireballs(as seen in round 2 of the ABD fight), and V can also set up other spells such as Forcecage during the Time Stop as well. Of course, Xykon can teleport out and Redcloak can Disintegrate it from the inside in the latter case, but you get what I mean.

[Fish]

To the people who have said that V won’t get a 9th level spell slot because it would make hir too powerful: I disagree, because that’s the way V used to look at spells. That is, as raw power. And to those who say a 9th-level spell doesn’t fit into the story, again I disagree. How V uses and chooses hir magic is the culmination of hir story arc.

That’s why I lean toward a Bugsy’s Hand spell. Apart from being a running gag, it’s a demonstration of the principle that brute force isn’t always the best method. It also does force damage, which is one of the things Xykon isn’t immune to.

[zimmerwald1915]

To the people who have said that V won’t get a 9th level spell slot because it would make hir too powerful: I disagree, because that’s the way V used to look at spells. That is, as raw power. And to those who say a 9th-level spell doesn’t fit into the story, again I disagree. How V uses and chooses hir magic is the culmination of hir story arc.

That’s why I lean toward a Bugsy’s Hand spell. Apart from being a running gag, it’s a demonstration of the principle that brute force isn’t always the best method. It also does force damage, which is one of the things Xykon isn’t immune to.
Y'know what else Xykon isn't immune to? Roy's sword, which almost surely does more than 2d6+12 damage.

[Doug Lampert]

Y'know what else Xykon isn't immune to? Roy's sword, which almost surely does more than 2d6+12 damage.

Yeah, the main useful effect of crushing hand is the grapple, which hinders spell casting.


You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah, the main useful effect of crushing hand is the grapple, which hinders spell casting.
But it demonstrably doesn't hinder Xykon's spellcasting.

Which is not to say Vaarsuvius won't take it, she almost certainly will. But not specifically for its usefulness against Xykon.

[Peelee]

But it demonstrably doesn't hinder Xykon's spellcasting.

Which is not to say Vaarsuvius won't take it, she almost certainly will. But not specifically for its usefulness against Xykon.

Redcloak, to the best of my knowledge, has no Still Spell metamagic, nor is immune to fire damage.

No reason for me to pull that out after "not against Xykon," nosirree.

[zimmerwald1915]

Redcloak
That was the implication, yes.

[Peelee]

That was the implication, yes.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/7/76/Dennis_%282%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141204201342

[understatement]

Shouldn't V be targeting toward Xykon instead of RC?

[Peelee]

Shouldn't V be targeting toward Xykon instead of RC?

Ignoring the fact that Redcloak is an extremely powerful caster on Xykon's side, and thus a very valid and strategic target in his own right, Redcloak can heal Xykon, which is a pretty big deal.

[Jasdoif]

IIRC it's Elminster who has the immunity to time stop, and what you describe is almost certainly what they meant, but it is not given in the rules.

Technically, all being immune to timestop means is that he can't benefit from the spell.

If we go with the intended reading: What's the range on this ability? Does anyone on any plane anywhere casting timestop suddenly give the big MartyStu 1d4+1 additional rounds of action? Or do they need to be someone in the same novel? Or does it only apply if they're on the same plane? Or within some range that is picked by the author at the time that the spell is cast? Because there's nothing in the ability to tell you any of this. He's just "immune".Hm....If this was an utterance, it'd fit right in. Quick, someone who actually knows about Elminster beyond "the wizard that whoever you play as in Baldur's Gate claims everyone knows of": write him up as a Truespeaker!

[Goblin_Priest]

But it demonstrably doesn't hinder Xykon's spellcasting.

Which is not to say Vaarsuvius won't take it, she almost certainly will. But not specifically for its usefulness against Xykon.

Sure it does. If it's cast from far enough, sure Big X can break free be self-meteor-swarming. But that means spending a turn to self-meteor-swarm. Which is not only a wated level 9 spell slot, but also a turn not spent against the Order.

When fighting an enemy team that has fewer but stronger characters, using 1 action to deny 1 action is a very efficient tactic.

[zimmerwald1915]

When fighting an enemy team that has fewer but stronger characters, using 1 action to deny 1 action is a very efficient tactic.
This is a longstanding tactic of Vaarsuvius's going back to the fight against Samantha, and developed over the course of the comic through the fights with Zz'dtri and Laurin in the last book, up to the fight against the frost giants in Passage Pass.

Doesn't mean crushing hand is the spell to do it with. Particularly as it only has a range of Medium (270 ft. at Vaarsuvius's current level).

[understatement]

Ignoring the fact that Redcloak is an extremely powerful caster on Xykon's side, and thus a very valid and strategic target in his own right, Redcloak can heal Xykon, which is a pretty big deal.

But every action V takes against RC is one not used against Xykon (in terms of completing directing all power towards one person for the most damage)

Besides, Redcloak is alive, so a lot more spells and attacks work on him.

[Peelee]

But every action V takes against RC is one not used against Xykon

True, but not terribly relevant; they have two enemies, not just one. Even without knowing the Plan, Redcloak is still an enormous threat in his own right, being a high-level cleric who is complicit in going for the Gates. So far as the Order knows, if they wipe out Xykon, then Redcloak will take the Gate for himself and rule. And again, there's the healing, where Xykon can last significantly longer with Reddy than without him.

Of course, if you really think that neutralizing Xykon takes ultimate precedence, then it would behoove the Order to have some way to stop him from casting spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html), which would free up others to neutralize Redcloak.

[zimmerwald1915]

So far as the Order knows, if they wipe out Xykon, then Redcloak will take the Gate for himself and rule.
They know nothing of the kind. Durkon would have shared Thor's plan with Roy over the night following his resurrection.

EDIT: Actually, a tactic occurs. Get Durkon close to Redcloak, and lock them in a forcecage to talk things out separate from the rest of the battle. Redcloak has at most one disintegrate, which Durkon can counterspell.

[Peelee]

They know nothing of the kind. Durkon would have shared Thor's plan with Roy over the night following his resurrection.

True. I was focusing on "even without knowledge of what's going on Reddy's dangerous," and forgot recent events.

[Goblin_Priest]

This is a longstanding tactic of Vaarsuvius's going back to the fight against Samantha, and developed over the course of the comic through the fights with Zz'dtri and Laurin in the last book, up to the fight against the frost giants in Passage Pass.

Doesn't mean crushing hand is the spell to do it with. Particularly as it only has a range of Medium (270 ft. at Vaarsuvius's current level).

270ft is 265ft more than many in the party, and probably at least 240ft more than the rest. I don't expect the final battle to have both sides camping in corners at over 300ft from each other.

Heck, in our D&D games, I think 270ft can reach from corner to corner on the vinyl maps.


But every action V takes against RC is one not used against Xykon (in terms of completing directing all power towards one person for the most damage)

Besides, Redcloak is alive, so a lot more spells and attacks work on him.

If you can negate an enemy's turn, you may as well negate the most powerful enemy's turn. Why deny a level 9 spell when you can deny an epic spell? And as you said, Redcloak is susceptible to stuff Xykon isn't, like... sneak attacks. Probably hard to sneak attack a grasped foe.

[CriticalFailure]

I doubt that Durkon has told them about Thor's mission. I think that will be shown.

[Doug Lampert]

If you can negate an enemy's turn, you may as well negate the most powerful enemy's turn. Why deny a level 9 spell when you can deny an epic spell? And as you said, Redcloak is susceptible to stuff Xykon isn't, like... sneak attacks. Probably hard to sneak attack a grasped foe.

Quite the opposite, it's hard to sneak attack with a bow, UNLESS the target is grappled, in which case every attack by everyone not in the grapple qualifies.

[danielxcutter]

True, but not terribly relevant; they have two enemies, not just one. Even without knowing the Plan, Redcloak is still an enormous threat in his own right, being a high-level cleric who is complicit in going for the Gates. So far as the Order knows, if they wipe out Xykon, then Redcloak will take the Gate for himself and rule. And again, there's the healing, where Xykon can last significantly longer with Reddy than without him.

Of course, if you really think that neutralizing Xykon takes ultimate precedence, then it would behoove the Order to have some way to stop him from casting spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html), which would free up others to neutralize Redcloak.

Aaaaaaactually, I'm not sure the Spellsplinter Maneuver is going to work well enough on Xykon; undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration checks and we've seen Greg(who only has marginally better Charisma than Durkon) make the check. Xykon's Charisma is probably in the low 30s; combined with his DR, Roy's going to have to deal a lot of damage for it to really work. And that's assuming the big X doesn't have Improved Combat Casting or whatever.

[Peelee]

Aaaaaaactually, I'm not sure the Spellsplinter Maneuver is going to work well enough on Xykon; undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration checks and we've seen Greg(who only has marginally better Charisma than Durkon) make the check. Xykon's Charisma is probably in the low 30s; combined with his DR, Roy's going to have to deal a lot of damage for it to really work. And that's assuming the big X doesn't have Improved Combat Casting or whatever.

All damaging attacks inflict a Concentration check to keep the spell. Spellsplinter is introduced as a feat specifically designed to disrupt spells, indicating that it is significantly more difficult to overcome than a standard "you take X damage, factor X into the check calculation" attack. Even that aside, considering the that we've seen it introduced, seen Roy taking the time to learn it, and seen it foreshadowed working in the fight with the vampire, if it turned out to not really do much that wouldn't be terribly good storytelling.

[understatement]

And also hope Redcloak doesn't just pull out a Blasphemy and then Xykon spams Meteor Swarms.

[Goblin_Priest]

All damaging attacks inflict a Concentration check to keep the spell. Spellsplinter is introduced as a feat specifically designed to disrupt spells, indicating that it is significantly more difficult to overcome than a standard "you take X damage, factor X into the check calculation" attack. Even that aside, considering the that we've seen it introduced, seen Roy taking the time to learn it, and seen it foreshadowed working in the fight with the vampire, if it turned out to not really do much that wouldn't be terribly good storytelling.

Wasn't there a theory that the move only worked against casters casting defensively? And that Durkula chose to just tank the attack and do the concentration check instead, thus bypassing it?

[Peelee]

Wasn't there a theory that the move only worked against casters casting defensively? And that Durkula chose to just tank the attack and do the concentration check instead, thus bypassing it?

There's a theory that it's a homebrewed version of Mage Slayer, but given the "homebrew" bit (and the lack of ability to tell when one is casting defensively), that doesn't really mean much, IMO.

Also, when did Durkon get a spell through the Spellsplinter?

[Tvtyrant]

Considering how often they end up having to stave off certain defeat by defending members of the group... Prismatic Sphere. Whole party being assaulted by an army? Hide in sphere. Someone unconscious and being targeted by an evil cousin? Surround with sphere. Want to get Redcloak separated from Xykon to talk about the Snarl Plan? fly up then cast sphere. It doesn't break the genre like Wish or Shapechange, but still has myriad uses that come up almost constantly.

[Emanick]

Wasn't there a theory that the move only worked against casters casting defensively? And that Durkula chose to just tank the attack and do the concentration check instead, thus bypassing it?

While the Order is trapped in Girard’s uberspell, Xykon is astonished to see that Roy disrupted his spell despite the fact that he was casting defensively. That, of course, implies that the Spellsplinter Maneuver can work against you even when you cast defensively.

You could argue that Roy is trapped in an illusion and thus willfully misinterprets how the feat works in order to suit his fantasy, but I don’t think that’s a very strong argument. It makes more sense to assume that everything that happened in the illusion was at least possible from the characters’ points of view.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

when did Durkon get a spell through the Spellsplinter?

Greg did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html).

Grey Wolf

[mikelibrarian]

Varsuvius doesn't know that Redcloak's Red Cloak is an artifact, so wouldn't target it. I could see V picking that spell for use on the phylactery.

Using Freedom in the way described would be awesome, but I don't think it works that way, and as it remedies something that happened in Start of darkness, none of the PCs would know to use it.

[Goblin_Priest]

While the Order is trapped in Girard’s uberspell, Xykon is astonished to see that Roy disrupted his spell despite the fact that he was casting defensively. That, of course, implies that the Spellsplinter Maneuver can work against you even when you cast defensively.

You could argue that Roy is trapped in an illusion and thus willfully misinterprets how the feat works in order to suit his fantasy, but I don’t think that’s a very strong argument. It makes more sense to assume that everything that happened in the illusion was at least possible from the characters’ points of view.

Well, it's his dream world, so everything that could happen right, did happen right. If there was a fail chance "IRL", it wouldn't have in the dream world.

[Emanick]

Well, it's his dream world, so everything that could happen right, did happen right. If there was a fail chance "IRL", it wouldn't have in the dream world.

:xykon:: How did you do that?? I was casting defensively!
:redcloak:: He prevented you from doing so by timing his strike to perfectly coincide with the apex of magical energy.

It certainly sounds like the Spellsplinter Maneuver's explicit function is to prevent someone from avoiding the possibility of spell failure by casting defensively (and for any epic-level sorcerers who put max ranks into Concentration, failing such a check should be impossible). This can't be proven, of course, but I think it's a good standing assumption to make unless evidence that it is false arises.

[Kish]

Suppose, hypothetically, that the Spellsplinter Maneuver was a different name for the Mage Slayer feat, which makes it so that any spellcaster attempting to cast defensively in the threatened area of the person with the feat will auto-fail, but doesn't stop someone from casting normally and sucking up the attack of opportunity, if they can make the Concentration check to not lose their spell from the damage.

In this hypothesis, Roy's fantasy version of Xykon was either so stupid, or paying so little attention, that he tried to do something he could easily have observed he couldn't do (the Mage Slayer feat does inform anyone near the person with it that they can't cast defensively). Greg, of course, cast non-defensively and made his Concentration check to cast Harm.

It seems to be consistent with what's on the page, and it leaves the Spellsplinter Maneuver still useful, but vastly less useful against Xykon (who doesn't fight like an idiot outside of Roy's fantasies) than it was in the illusion.

[Goblin_Priest]

:xykon:: How did you do that?? I was casting defensively!
:redcloak:: He prevented you from doing so by timing his strike to perfectly coincide with the apex of magical energy.

It certainly sounds like the Spellsplinter Maneuver's explicit function is to prevent someone from avoiding the possibility of spell failure by casting defensively (and for any epic-level sorcerers who put max ranks into Concentration, failing such a check should be impossible). This can't be proven, of course, but I think it's a good standing assumption to make unless evidence that it is false arises.

Yea, but nothing about that says "the maneuver is an automatic success".

Could be something along the lines of "When a threatened caster attempts to cast a spell defensively, you get a free attack of opportunity. If it lands, instead of dealing damage, you disrupt the spell". If it's something like this, then you still need 1) available attacks of opportunity and 2) to beat the opponent's AC.

Nothing shows that this is how it works, either, but if there was limits to the ability, I'm guessing that the fantasy illusion probably wouldn't be where we should expect to find them.

[Emanick]

Yea, but nothing about that says "the maneuver is an automatic success".

Could be something along the lines of "When a threatened caster attempts to cast a spell defensively, you get a free attack of opportunity. If it lands, instead of dealing damage, you disrupt the spell". If it's something like this, then you still need 1) available attacks of opportunity and 2) to beat the opponent's AC.

Nothing shows that this is how it works, either, but if there was limits to the ability, I'm guessing that the fantasy illusion probably wouldn't be where we should expect to find them.

Sure, I never suggested that it would make disrupting spells an automatic success. I think Kish's guess as to how it works is probably pretty good.

I think I may have misread your initial post, to be honest, since it's not at all what I remember. That's what I get for posting right before bedtime.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the Mage Slayer feat does inform anyone near the person with it that they can't cast defensively

It does? How? (IC-wise, I mean)

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

IC-wise, something like, "You realize from the way the greatsword fighter is standing that you cannot cast defensively while this close to him."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

IC-wise, something like, "You realize from the way the greatsword fighter is standing that you cannot cast defensively while this close to him."

...

Well, that's just weird. One, because that seems to require a great deal of martial knowledge from people who spend a lot of time in non-martial learning. But mostly because, in general, I thought feats don't give themselves away? At least, I don't recall ever being given a breakdown of what feats my enemies possessed until they bit me in the behind. What makes this feat so special that it is given away before the fighter even has a chance to use it?

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

...

Well, that's just weird. One, because that seems to require a great deal of martial knowledge from people who spend a lot of time in non-martial learning. But mostly because, in general, I thought feats don't give themselves away? At least, I don't recall ever being given a breakdown of what feats my enemies possessed until they bit me in the behind. What makes this feat so special that it is given away before the fighter even has a chance to use it?

Grey Wolf
Because its purpose is "your enemies can't cast defensively against you, but must automatically provoke an attack of opportunity every time they cast a spell within your threatened area," which is already huge. Not "your enemies can't cast defensively against you and will automatically fizzle at least one spell, and may or may not realize why their casting defensively is strangely not working" which would be vastly more powerful.

This webcomic (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=356) has an illustration of how it can work in practice.

Edited: To be clear, Mage Slayer is a passive feat, mechanically speaking. Not "you hit them and they can't cast defensively"--strictly "you exude an aura of you-can't-cast-defensively."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because its purpose is "your enemies can't cast defensively against you, but must automatically provoke an attack of opportunity every time they cast a spell within your threatened area," which is already huge. Not "your enemies can't cast defensively against you and will automatically fizzle at least one spell, and may or may not realize why their casting defensively is strangely not working" which would be vastly more powerful.

This webcomic (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=356) has an illustration of how it can work in practice.

OK, please bear with my haven't-played in-over-a-decade ignorance, but I seem to recall that a fighter in close combat with a wizard already has the upper hand? Getting an extra attack in the wizard's turn is adding insult to injury, rather than a game changer. Also, is there something that prevents the wizard from taking a 5-foot step away from the fighter and literally sidestep any danger? I suppose there are spells they might want to cast that are touch-ranged, but we are getting into niche territory, aren't we?

I suppose the real issue here is that I really don't see how this feat is that much of a huge deal.

(Sorry, I tried your link, but flash is blocked at work. All I could see is a block of text talking about a shield bash thing)

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

At that link is an example of a character answering one of your questions by combining Mage Slayer (your enemies can't cast defensively) with the Thicket of Blades stance from Tome of Battle (taking a five-foot step in your threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity; Thicket of Blades also specifies that everyone who observes the user knows that five-foot steps are now dangerous). More prosaically and core-specific to deal with five-foot steps, there are also spiked chains (turn everywhere within 10 feet of the wielder into their threatened area).

Beyond that, there are battlefield configurations that prevent a spellcaster from casually taking a five-foot step. If you've got them pinned against a wall, so they can go right or left but either will still leave them in your threatened area unless you go more than five feet, it's one example--but the comic offers another; if Roy had had the Mage Slayer feat (whether that's the feat he learned later in the afterlife or not), he would have gotten an attack of opportunity every time Xykon cast a spell while they were on the zombie dragon, since Xykon wasn't five-footing away from him until later, when Xykon fled. In the illusion, of course, Xykon easily could have just stepped back, which might be why Roy's subconscious supplied Xykon acting like he had no idea the restriction was there.

[xroads]

Chain Contingency would definitely make sense.

I can definitely see this as being V's choice. Especially with the threat of fiends yanking V out at inconvenient moments.

Assuming V did choose Chain Contingency, I wonder what kind of spells V could chain? Hmmm... Time Stop maybe?

It's been awhile since I've played 3.5, so my memory of spells options is a bit limited.

[Jasdoif]

...

Well, that's just weird. One, because that seems to require a great deal of martial knowledge from people who spend a lot of time in non-martial learning. But mostly because, in general, I thought feats don't give themselves away? At least, I don't recall ever being given a breakdown of what feats my enemies possessed until they bit me in the behind. What makes this feat so special that it is given away before the fighter even has a chance to use it?

Grey WolfBecause its purpose is "your enemies can't cast defensively against you, but must automatically provoke an attack of opportunity every time they cast a spell within your threatened area," which is already huge. Not "your enemies can't cast defensively against you and will automatically fizzle at least one spell, and may or may not realize why their casting defensively is strangely not working" which would be vastly more powerful.

This webcomic (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=356) has an illustration of how it can work in practice.

Edited: To be clear, Mage Slayer is a passive feat, mechanically speaking. Not "you hit them and they can't cast defensively"--strictly "you exude an aura of you-can't-cast-defensively."To expand a bit, Mage Slayer's description is "You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly", and the text says the caster will automatically fail any Concentration checks they choose to make to cast defensively (which results in the spell failing); presumably, in the abstracted-away threat-posturing between rounds, you're showing that your aim can anticipate and thwart the dodging and weaving of casting defensively.

Also, I will note that Mage Slayer's cousin aunt, Spellcasting Harrier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellcastingHarrier), is an epic feat that gives a caster no indication that you get an attack of opportunity when they cast defensively, and even gives a +4 bonus on the attack roll.

[Goblin_Priest]

About a grappling hand, I just remembered: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

Xykon's immune now.

[zimmerwald1915]

About a grappling hand, I just remembered: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

Xykon's immune now.
Crushing hand didn't bother Xykon much even before he got his new boots. Which is what makes it a good spell to take, narratively speaking. It will not affect anything in any substantial way.

[danielxcutter]

Crushing hand didn't bother Xykon much even before he got his new boots. Which is what makes it a good spell to take, narratively speaking. It will not affect anything in any substantial way.

I don't really think making V more-or-less irrelevant is that good in narrative terms, especially since V already has more than a few restraining bolts(two calls from the IFCC, the Big X being nigh-immune to most of their spells, etc.) and most of the other members aside from Durkon are seriously gimped against Xykon compared to, say, an epic-leveled version of Redcloak - since against a CE sorcerer lich, no Sneak Attack, DR blocks lots of damage from slashing and piercing, cold immunity, Anarchic only works on lawful creatures plus undead are immune to crits... that kind of stuff.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't really think making V more-or-less irrelevant is that good in narrative terms, especially since V already has more than a few restraining bolts(two calls from the IFCC, the Big X being nigh-immune to most of their spells, etc.) and most of the other members aside from Durkon are seriously gimped against Xykon compared to, say, an epic-leveled version of Redcloak - since against a CE sorcerer lich, no Sneak Attack, DR blocks lots of damage from slashing and piercing, cold immunity, Anarchic only works on lawful creatures plus undead are immune to crits... that kind of stuff.
Yes, and? There's a reason the planning Book 1 was to buff Roy to high heaven and send him to basically solo Xykon. So will it be again.

[Kish]

Yes, and? There's a reason the planning Book 1 was to buff Roy to high heaven and send him to basically solo Xykon.
Sure; the plan was made by Roy and his massive ego.

So will it be again.
This presumes Roy hasn't and won't move past any of his ego issues. Which I realize is to be expected from you, but you should be equally unsurprised that it finds little traction.

[zimmerwald1915]

This presumes Roy hasn't and won't move past any of his ego issues.
Whereas you're presuming that it isn't a tactically sound plan that a reasonable team might pursue on its merits. As danielxcutter has observed, the Order hasn't got many other options, since most of its members are incapable of contributing to a confrontation with Xykon (minions notwithstanding) otherwise than by buffing Roy.

[Kish]

Whereas you're presuming that it isn't a tactically sound plan that a reasonable team might pursue on its merits.
Whether it is or not is, I think, completely irrelevant; if Rich writes a climactic final battle with Xykon, it will involve the Order as an ensemble cast, not spotlight Roy and ignore the other members.

[Goblin_Priest]

Crushing hand didn't bother Xykon much even before he got his new boots. Which is what makes it a good spell to take, narratively speaking. It will not affect anything in any substantial way.

It made him waste a turn and a meteor swarm.

Why bother both showing the loot and explaining what it does, if it'll never be of any use? Checkov's shotgun and all.

I believe O'Chul gave the party a list of spells and items Xykon has, which they'll have been able to prepare against. But they can't prepare against his new loot. I'm assuming it'll be relevant.

[Aveline]

It made him waste a turn and a meteor swarm.

Why bother both showing the loot and explaining what it does, if it'll never be of any use? Checkov's shotgun and all.

I believe O'Chul gave the party a list of spells and items Xykon has, which they'll have been able to prepare against. But they can't prepare against his new loot. I'm assuming it'll be relevant.

Vaarsuvius took a turn casting Crushing Hand, so wasting Xykon's time is meaningless without something to stall for. I notice also that the Still Meteor Swarm damaged Vaarsuvius.

Even if the net result were only that they each went down a spell, that may also be tactically detrimental to Vaarsuvius if Xykon has more spell slots than Vaarsuvius.

Of course, that just means that *that* Crushing Hand was wasted. In a 6v1 it sounds plenty versatile, and it seems Vaarsuvius is aiming for versatility over raw power when it comes to strategy.

[Peelee]

Vaarsuvius took a turn casting Crushing Hand, so wasting Xykon's time is meaningless without something to stall for. I notice also that the Still Meteor Swarm damaged Vaarsuvius.

You already noted how it's a much greater tradeoff when it's not a one-on-one fight, but V was hurt because they were too close to Xykon when he Meteor Swarmed himself. Of course, Big X can aim each sphere at a different target, so it's not as if distance guarantees safety.

[Kish]

I think the primary function of Xykon's new boots, is that they let Rich draw him with boots from now on.

[Mightymosy]

Doesn't Xykon say their purpose is so he doesn't accidentally knock off toe bones all the time? Or was that a joke someone made?

[Jannoire]

Doesn't Xykon say their purpose is so he doesn't accidentally knock off toe bones all the time? Or was that a joke someone made?

No, he really did say that.
So my bet for the final battle will be a strategy, where someone strips Xykon's boots of and he will be defeated by loss of toe bones...

[Squire Doodad]

No, he really did say that.
So my bet for the final battle will be a strategy, where someone strips Xykon's boots of and he will be defeated by loss of toe bones...

Imagine the ABD fight, but ABD forgot about Anti-Magic Field and so is actually trapped for 24 hours while V finally trances, refreshes all the things, and kicks jet black butt.

Also, I imagine that "Rich can draw Xykon with boots" is actually accurate: with so much snow, bone feet are more likely to go poorly aesthetically meaning that Xykon wearing boots is a better design choice.

[danielxcutter]

Imagine the ABD fight, but ABD forgot about Anti-Magic Field and so is actually trapped for 24 hours while V finally trances, refreshes all the things, and kicks jet black butt.

To be fair, the joke was about loss of toe bones, not loss of FoM.


Also, I imagine that "Rich can draw Xykon with boots" is actually accurate: with so much snow, bone feet are more likely to go poorly aesthetically meaning that Xykon wearing boots is a better design choice.

It's certainly why Rich went for boots instead of, say, a ring or vest, I imagine.

[Squire Doodad]

To be fair, the joke was about loss of toe bones, not loss of FoM.

I was going with the fact that Xykon can fly. He doesn't *need* feet if he can fly, though having feet is prefered, and so Xykon being nearly immobilized by losing his feet is tantamount to the ABD forgetting she could use Anti-Magic Field to break out of the Forcecage.

[Jannoire]

But maybe popped-off toe bone off a lich is a material component for some über-spell?

[Goblin_Priest]

Having feet helps not turning into a total chump the moment you walk into an AMF.