Why Warlocks have so few choices for high level spells

[Talionis]

Why is the Warlock spell list so small at high levels? Is it balanced in some way by something I am not seeing. Warlocks already only get one choice per level and one slot per day. So why are the choices also so limited ?

[Yora]

Regular warlock spell progression only goes up to 5th level spells.

6th to 9th level spells are gained through Mystic Arcanum. You probably end up having only one spell of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level at 20th level. When you can pick only one spell from a list, then everyone is probably going to pick from the same three or four best options anyway.

[Dr. Cliché]

Why is the Warlock spell list so small at high levels? Is it balanced in some way by something I am not seeing. Warlocks already only get one choice per level and one slot per day. So why are the choices also so limited ?

No clue. IMO the Warlock class basically runs out of steam after Lv11. Their entire mode of casting suddenly switches for Lv6+ spells.

For Level 1-5 spells they have some advantages over other casters (more higher-level slots), at the cost of having no low-level spell slots at all.

However, after that it becomes all-downside. They only know 1 spell per level, they can never switch out those spells, they can never upcast spells using those slots, and they end up with fewer slots than other casters (Sorcerers and such end up with 2 Lv6 and 2 Lv7 spell slots, whilst Warlocks remain perpetually stuck at 1 of each).

As for why they have such a limited number of possible spells for lv6+, I've absolutely no clue. You might think that seekers of forbidden knowledge would have access to more spells than most classes, but I guess that's reserved for people who play lutes all day. :smallconfused:

[Shuruke]

The way I look at it is Warlocks aren't really full casters

Sure they have the progression but they don't have the slots

I think they are more of a 3/4 caster but in turn they get 2 "archetypes"
Like a cleric at level 1 they pick a choice , and at level 3 they pick a choice.

They also get invocations , which if u look at their 15+ ones are pretty good .
The chain one especially since its on a recharge per creature not a one use per long rest


In the end u have less choices on spells
Have a interesting short rest mechanic
Get features and expanded spell list options based on patron

You get the 3 pact options

And you get the invocations to choose from that include things like at will 1st and 2nd level spells
And other things.

I would love playing a warlock mechanically just don't like the pact ordeal. However I have a player who absolutely swears by warlock and does tons of stuff with them, typically dipping 1 or 2 in rogue or fighter

[Ganders]

My guess is that it's because it's not actually a spell list, it's an arcanum list. Warlocks don't get ANY level 6-9 spells or spell slots.

It's entirely possible that it was an afterthought. I can easily imagine a warlock class that gets rid of arcanums altogether, and just adds four more invocations in their place. In order to do that, you'd need to add some more invocations of the form 'you can cast such-and-such 7th level spell once a day without using a spell slot'. And at that point, is it really much different than how it is now?

[MaxWilson]

My guess is that it's because it's not actually a spell list, it's an arcanum list. Warlocks don't get ANY level 6-9 spells or spell slots.

It's entirely possible that it was an afterthought. I can easily imagine a warlock class that gets rid of arcanums altogether, and just adds four more invocations in their place. In order to do that, you'd need to add some more invocations of the form 'you can cast such-and-such 7th level spell once a day without using a spell slot'. And at that point, is it really much different than how it is now?

Conceptually I like this, but how would you prevent someone from taking 8 9th level spell invocations? The key difference between Mystic Arcana and your proposal is that Mystic Arcana has additional structure to it. If you start adding rules to the invocations a la "you can only take one of these invocations for each spell level" then they basically turn back into Mystica Arcana in their current form.

Here's a notion: do give the warlocks spell slots of levels 6-9, but don't give them any spells known of those levels, except from invocations. ("Forbidden Knowledge: Mastery of Form. You know True Polymorph as a warlock spell," therefore you can cast it using your spell slots.) Call those invocations Mystic Arcana, and give the warlock an appropriate number of extra invocations, and don't restrict how many Mystic Arcana they can learn. Now the Warlock can choose to play like a vanilla PHB warlock with four distinct Mystic Arcana per day; or he can take Foresight and True Polymorph and Mass Suggestion as his Mystic Arcana and just use his 7th/8th level slots for more Mass Suggestion; or he can ignore Mystic Arcana entirely and spend his extra invocations enhancing his Eldritch Blast and getting at-will Speak With Dead or whatever, and spend his 6th-9th level spell slots on e.g. upcast Armor of Agathys. And it sort of fixes a flavor issue too, because now the Mystic Arcana feels more like a forbidden secret that you learned instead of a button that you mash.

[djreynolds]

I think it has to do with eldritch blast, its very powerful and hardly resisted

[Yunru]

However, after that it becomes all-downsideI wouldn't go quite that far. They cast their 6th+ level spells without using spell slots, which makes them ideal candidates for Simulacrum.

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't go quite that far. They cast their 6th+ level spells without using spell slots, which makes them ideal candidates for Simulacrum.

Argh. 5E Simulacrum is so sloppily-written. Details that shouldn't matter, do matter to it.

[Yunru]

Argh. 5E Simulacrum is so sloppily-written. Details that shouldn't matter, do matter to it.

Yup, Warlocks for 6+, Sorcerers for <6.

[MaxWilson]

Yup, Warlocks for 6+, Sorcerers for <6.

So many Simulacrum issues would be fixed if instead of "nor can it regain expended Spell Slots" they had just written "and it is incapable of resting."

[Talionis]

No clue. IMO the Warlock class basically runs out of steam after Lv11. Their entire mode of casting suddenly switches for Lv6+ spells.
:
This is my experience too. Eldritch Blast probably isn’t the reason, you’ve had that since level one. Level 2 you get agonizing blast. It seems weird to balance late game play with something you get so early.

I have liked some of the solutions here. Getting only one spell slot with no spells known only upcasting and powering invocations is interesting. I like it better than my own idea of allowing Warlocks to pick any one spell at each level 6, 7, 8, 9. So that at least you balance the weird weaker than a normal caster with additional spell selection.

[Dr. Cliché]

This is my experience too. Eldritch Blast probably isn’t the reason, you’ve had that since level one. Level 2 you get agonizing blast. It seems weird to balance late game play with something you get so early.

I have liked some of the solutions here. Getting only one spell slot with no spells known only upcasting and powering invocations is interesting. I like it better than my own idea of allowing Warlocks to pick any one spell at each level 6, 7, 8, 9. So that at least you balance the weird weaker than a normal caster with additional spell selection.

Personally, I'd have liked to see some stronger Invocations for high-level Warlocks.

As it stands, so many of the high-level ones are just pathetic.

[Talionis]

Personally, I'd have liked to see some stronger Invocations for high-level Warlocks.

As it stands, so many of the high-level ones are just pathetic.

I don’t disagree. If they did exist they would offset some of the differences between Warlocks and other high level casters

[MeeposFire]

I like warlocks but I would still love even more invocations including some nice higher level ones.

[MaxWilson]

I like warlocks but I would still love even more invocations including some nice higher level ones.

If you gave warlocks 6th-9th level spell slots, you could resource-balance those hypothetical powerful invocations by charging a spell slot. E.g. Celestial could get an invocation option that was something like, "Divine Resilience: 15th level. You are supernaturally lucky. When you-the-character fail a saving throw, you-the-player can choose to expend a 6th+ level spell slot in order to succeed instead." I don't love the wording but you get the idea.

[MeeposFire]

If you gave warlocks 6th-9th level spell slots, you could resource-balance those hypothetical powerful invocations by charging a spell slot. E.g. Celestial could get an invocation option that was something like, "Divine Resilience: 15th level. You are supernaturally lucky. When you-the-character fail a saving throw, you-the-player can choose to expend a 6th+ level spell slot in order to succeed instead." I don't love the wording but you get the idea.

Well to be honest the invocations that allow you an effect (usually a spell) at the cost of your spell slots are among my least favorite of the invocations so those would not be for me though otehr people could like them so I would nto be opposed to something like that existing.

Also you do not need spell slots to make that work just say you use up one of your mystic arcanum spells you could even limit it to a certain spell level if needed.