Weapon Size Stacking?

[Firechanter]

Does PF (official material only) offer any methods that allow a normal (medium-sized) PC to significantly improve their weapon damage?

Normal: every size category up increases "Handedness" by one step and incurs a cumulative -2 penalty.

Compare the gimpy iconic Amiri, who expends a feat (EWP Bastard Sword) to effectively trade -2 attack for +2 damage (2d8 compared to the 2d6 of a regular-sized Greatsword), which of course is a terrible deal.

It gets a bit better with Effortless Lace (reduces penalties by 2).
There's the Ranger Spell "Lead Blades" which increases effective size category by 1. Of course this could be casted off a Wand with UMD. -> 3d8.
There's also the "Impact" weapon property, which however at +2 Bonus for just +1 size category is WAY overpriced. Also, I'm not sure if it would even stack with Lead Blades.

I've also seen a 3PP feat that reduces Handedness by 1 step, thus allowing you to use a Large Greatsword as base, but again - third party.

Are there any other meaningful options?
I hear there is a Trait that would help with that, but which one is it?
Any other archetypes, feats, items that I haven't heard of yet?

[Oberron]

For weapon damage, power attack is always useful to get more damage, for increasing weapon size enlarge person does it by proxy and will stack with the other options you have listed

[Elricaltovilla]

Size stacking in Pathfinder is limited by a FAQ that states a character can only have one "actual" and one "virtual" weapon size increase.

This means you can combine Enlarge Person (actual size increase) with Lead Blades (virtual size increase), but not any other spells that increase your actual size like monstrous physique. Similarly, you cannot stack lead blades on to a weapon with the impact enhancement.

You can however still wield a weapon that is naturally one size too big, assuming you have an ability to do so. Tieflings can sometimes do this if your GM is very generous. There's also Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler Barbarians that have similar abilities, though they stack insane penalties to your attack rolls for doing so.

In theory, a Tiefling Titan Fighter with oversized limbs could wield a huge great sword as a base weapon, then get Enlarged via Enlarge Person (with the Pass For Human alternate racial trait) and use an impact enchanted weapon to wield the equivalent of a colossal weapon. For a greatsword, that would be 8d6 damage.

EDIT: My phone thinks the word wield is weird.

[upho]

You can actually get one step further by wielding a Versatile Design (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-modifications/versatile-design/) (monk weapon group) modified greatsword with Ascetic Style (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style/), allowing you to use strong jaw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw/) instead of impact or lead blades for +2 "virtual" size increases instead of +1. Which nets you a 12d6 greatsword, which becomes a pretty decent 48d6 (168 average) with Greater Vital Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat/) at 16th level. Worship Gorum and get Divine Fighting Technique (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Divine%20Fighting%20Tech nique) (Gorum's Swordsmanship) so you can Vital Strike on a charge and one AoO per round as well, allowing you to add the other most meaty damage bonuses (Spirited Charge, Horn of the Criosphinx, Power Attack) and you can pump that average damage up to at least 440 on a charge at 16th.

[Elricaltovilla]

You can actually get one step further by wielding a Versatile Design (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-modifications/versatile-design/) (monk weapon group) modified greatsword with Ascetic Style (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style/), allowing you to use strong jaw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw/) instead of impact or lead blades for +2 "virtual" size increases instead of +1. Which nets you a 12d6 greatsword, which becomes a pretty decent 48d6 (168 average) with Greater Vital Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat/) at 16th level. Worship Gorum and get Divine Fighting Technique (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Divine%20Fighting%20Tech nique) (Gorum's Swordsmanship) so you can Vital Strike on a charge and one AoO per round as well, allowing you to add the other most meaty damage bonuses (Spirited Charge, Horn of the Criosphinx, Power Attack) and you can pump that average damage up to at least 440 on a charge at 16th.

I had a feeling you'd show up. Of course, third party publishing allowed, the best virtual size increase comes from Armory of the Conqueror (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/veils/#TOC-Armory-of-the-Conqueror), which can get you all the way to colossal virtual size increases and beyond.

I want to play a Daeva again. I never got to really give one a go outside of play testing.

[Firechanter]

Yes, yes... this sound juicy. ^^ I knew I could rely on you guys.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yes, yes... this sound juicy. ^^ I knew I could rely on you guys.

For what it's worth the Justice Daevic (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/veilweaving-classes/daevic/) is designed around stacking size increases to weapon damage with Vital Strike and Bull Rush attacks. It can get some pretty good damage numbers as noted above, and I find the act of pinballing enemies around the battlefield quite fun.

[OdinGOW]

Isnt there a Psionic power that if you expend extra power points you can increase your size category by 2 instead of 1 I believe its called "Expand" lvl 1 power. Decent WIS score and 2 lvls will give you plenty of power points... combine with the monk build shinanigans as listed above...

Edit: Could make it into an item? but im not sure about psionic items created with the extra power point modifiers how all that works? would be interested to learn.

[upho]

I had a feeling you'd show up.:smallbiggrin:


Of course, third party publishing allowed, the best virtual size increase comes from Armory of the Conqueror (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/veils/#TOC-Armory-of-the-Conqueror), which can get you all the way to colossal virtual size increases and beyond.Maxed Armory of the Conqueror and GVS can get truly bonkers. And surprisingly, with DSP content AFAIK it can actually get the most bonkers with ranged attacks, by going really big cheese with a fiend's mouth cannon (default 8d6 Huge size) and 1+ levels of Gunsmoke Mystic (for carefree reloading), the above Versatile Design + Ascetic Style combo with Cerberus Crush (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cerberus-crush-combat/), and AotC for +4 virtual increases. And I mean truly bonkers, as in no less than 256d6 easily up to more than 4 times per turn bonkers... :smalleek:

I actually have a (slightly less insane) detailed test build of that somewhere. IIRC it used Shifting feats and Formless Master to increase 2 actual size categories without Dex loss.


I want to play a Daeva again. I never got to really give one a go outside of play testing.I love the daeva. Especially how the different passions can really make for mechanically very different characters. It's a piece of the finest art, as is most of Akashic Mysteries, really.


Yes, yes... this sound juicy. ^^ I knew I could rely on you guys.Glad to be of service! Just be careful not to go overboard with those Vital Strike toys; you can certainly make them highly unsuitable for most games. And like Elric, I recommend you look into the daeva (and maybe psionics) as well.


For what it's worth the Justice Daevic (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/veilweaving-classes/daevic/) is designed around stacking size increases to weapon damage with Vital Strike and Bull Rush attacks. It can get some pretty good damage numbers as noted above, and I find the act of pinballing enemies around the battlefield quite fun.I'm just saying Demonic Slaughter + Tempest Shield + 6+ levels of Wrath daeva + 2+ levels of Siegebreaker fighter... But now I'm getting OT, as that combo isn't for maxing out your damage die.


Isnt there a Psionic power that if you expend extra power points you can increase your size category by 2 instead of 1 I believe its called "Expand" lvl 1 power. Decent WIS score and 2 lvls will give you plenty of power points... combine with the monk build shinanigans as listed above...Yes, expansion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expansion/) augment 6 (7 PP in total) gives you 2 size increases (minimum ML 7). So metamorphosis (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis/) is superior (minimum ML 5), as usual.


Edit: Could make it into an item? but im not sure about psionic items created with the extra power point modifiers how all that works? would be interested to learn.Yes, you can find/buy/craft a dorje (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/dorjes/) of any psionic power, which is the equivalent of a wand except without the level cap on the power. And of course, dorjes of metamorphosis tend to be popular among martially inclined PCs in PF games including psionics.

[Ramza00]

Isnt there a Psionic power that if you expend extra power points you can increase your size category by 2 instead of 1 I believe its called "Expand" lvl 1 power. Decent WIS score and 2 lvls will give you plenty of power points... combine with the monk build shinanigans as listed above...

Edit: Could make it into an item? but im not sure about psionic items created with the extra power point modifiers how all that works? would be interested to learn.

Yes Expansion is a 1st lvl Psionic Power in Pathfinder. 1 PP gives you 1 size increase, 7 PP gives you 2 size increases.

Also from the same book is Metamorphosis which is a 3rd level Psionic Power in the Egoist Discipline and is 5 PP and for the 5 PP you can choose from a list of options and get 2 size increases. There is also a 1st level Egoist Discipline Minor Metamorphosis for 1 PP you get 1 size increase as one of the multiple options you can choose.

[Crake]

Guns retain their handedness despite changes in size, so a medium rifle is a 2 handed weapon even for a large character, but it's likewise a 2 handed weapon for a small character, though you still retain the penalties for using an improperly sized weapon, -2 per size category:


Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.

Makes hauling around a huge gun for -4 to hit quite amusing, like wielding a 50cal sniper rifle as you shoot for 4d8 per shot. I'd recommend muleback cords to actually be able to carry it though, since a huge rifle would weigh 48lb. Even better if you can toss gravity bow on top upping it to 6d8, and enlarge person bringing it up to 8d8. Makes vital striking pretty amsuing as you whomp for 16d8 each round at 6bab, 24d8 at 11 bab, and 32d8 at 16 bab.

For melee weapons though, two handing a huge bastard sword with effortless lace gets you to 3d8 for a -2 penalty (effortless lace brings the huge down to large which you can two hand), that makes it a -2 penalty for 1d8+2, a bit of a more decent tradeoff. Lead blades gets it to 4d8, and enlarge person gets it to 6d8, and impact would hit that juicy 8d8 that you can also get with guns, though you're hitting regular AC, not touch.

[Elricaltovilla]

Guns retain their handedness despite changes in size, so a medium rifle is a 2 handed weapon even for a large character, but it's likewise a 2 handed weapon for a small character, though you still retain the penalties for using an improperly sized weapon, -2 per size category:



Makes hauling around a huge gun for -4 to hit quite amusing, like wielding a 50cal sniper rifle as you shoot for 4d8 per shot. I'd recommend muleback cords to actually be able to carry it though, since a huge rifle would weigh 48lb. Even better if you can toss gravity bow on top upping it to 6d8, and enlarge person bringing it up to 8d8. Makes vital striking pretty amsuing as you whomp for 16d8 each round at 6bab, 24d8 at 11 bab, and 32d8 at 16 bab.

For melee weapons though, two handing a huge bastard sword with effortless lace gets you to 3d8 for a -2 penalty (effortless lace brings the huge down to large which you can two hand), that makes it a -2 penalty for 1d8+2, a bit of a more decent tradeoff. Lead blades gets it to 4d8, and enlarge person gets it to 6d8, and impact would hit that juicy 8d8 that you can also get with guns, though you're hitting regular AC, not touch.

Lead Blades and Impact do not stack as both are "virtual size increases" per Paizo's FAQ.

[Ssalarn]

I love the daeva. Especially how the different passions can really make for mechanically very different characters. It's a piece of the finest art, as is most of Akashic Mysteries, really.


Thanks! If you picked up City of 7 Seraphs, I included a new daevic passion in there (Knowledge: Education/Secrecy) along with the other new goodies.
(Also it's "daevic"; daeva are the akashic beings they get their power from.)

To the main topic of the post, is there a specific weapon whose damage you're looking to boost, or are you just looking for something that does a ton of damage?

Cave Druid wildshaping into a carnivorous crystal and picking up Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike (multiclass as you wish once you've got the spell and form access) is one of the more entertaining 1pp builds for "I want to hit something and throw a hilarious number of dice"; I prefer Saurian Shaman and stegosaurus for the free trip so you can chain into AoO trip builds, but they'll come out roughly the same for DPR.

For general weapons build and splatbook access becomes very relevant; any weapon that starts with a bigger damage die (1d12 - 3d6) can be cranked up pretty high, but the path to get there can vary quite a bit.

Warpriest is a pretty good path to maximize weapon damage since they have the full cleric list (1-6), Sacred Weapon, and the fact that their effective BAB for their bonus feats is full means they don't lose out for Vital Striking in the same way as true martials (plus Furious Focus is tasty icing once they've got VS and PA).

[Crake]

Lead Blades and Impact do not stack as both are "virtual size increases" per Paizo's FAQ.

Well, even with that, you're sitting at a nice 6d8.

[upho]

Guns retain their handedness despite changes in size, so a medium rifle is a 2 handed weapon even for a large character, but it's likewise a 2 handed weapon for a small characterThe last part here is incorrect. Barring special abilities like Powerful Build, a medium 2-handed firearm cannot be wielded by a Small creature at all, just as is the case with all other types weapons. See FAQ. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9p04)

EDIT: The TL/DR here is that no weapon has a greater damage die vs size ratio than a cannon (default minimum Large 6d6) or mentioned Huge fiend's mouth variant (which has a greater range than the smaller cannon). And both of those of course have very specific demands in order to actually be as good as less silly weapons in a real game. When it comes to melee, no weapon has a greater damage die than the 3d6 (medium) butchering axe (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/axe-butchering/) per default.

So yeah, if you want to blow holes to match the size of the cheese, you should go spelunking with a Tsar Cannon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Cannon)!
https://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/c_scale,w_637/v1555226068/2052712996_dca501ca38_b_zbhqkg.jpg

:smallbiggrin: /EDIT

[Crake]

The last part here is incorrect. Barring special abilities like Powerful Build, a medium 2-handed firearm cannot be wielded by a Small creature at all, just as is the case with all other types weapons. See FAQ. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9p04)

-_- damnit paizo, why you gotta ruin everything.

[upho]

-_- damnit paizo, why you gotta ruin everything.Though I agree Paizo definitely have made numerous bad rulings via FAQs and errata, I really have to say that this is most definitely not one of those.


Thanks! If you picked up City of 7 Seraphs, I included a new daevic passion in there (Knowledge: Education/Secrecy) along with the other new goodies.I've frankly not had the time to get into new material, but 7S is certainly very high on my wish-list.


(Also it's "daevic"; daeva are the akashic beings they get their power from.)Doh! :smallredface: I blame senility. Though coincidentally, I also happen to love the daeva as a GM...