Help please - lvl 12 wizard becoming lvl 15 gestalt

[Dalfte]

Here's the DM's recommendation - "Wizard 15// Duskblade 3/ Runesmith 1/ Loremaster 1/ Divine Oracle3/ Uncanny Trickster 3 (loremaster) / Legacy Champion 4 (advancing Uncanny trickster)"

Here are my problems with that recommendation -


runesmith requires dwarf (possibly something they are willing to handwave as the character is a gnome from a guild of dwarf/gnome crafters and runesmith feels thematically appropriate to that, also they've managed to learn a symbol which when scribed "does things which appear magical" though that probably has less to do with runesmithing than other things)
managing minimum class level requirements for the prc's is baffling - do all 15 levels of wizard count since the gestalt side is sort of being tacked on post character leveling? Does the character need to be legal as a gestalt at each level of progression since this is sort of quasi retraining?




I haven't even looked up uncanny trickster and legacy champion... I could just hand this to another member of the group to build, but I really want to understand how this comes together.

[Awakeninfinity]

I'd like to refer you to the Gish Handbook; and would recommend making your second half a Duskblade base(4 levels would be sufficient to qualify for Spellsword1)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook

Other than that; what does your character currently do?

Edit: sorry; I completely misinterpreted what you wrote.

Unfortunately I am not an expert on the runesmith class; but afaik Runesmith basically allows you to cast in Armor. Edit: It actually allows you to inscribe your spells in a way that let's you completely ignore somatic compenents of spells; also eventually let's other people cast your spells for you at higher levels. Seems very thematic from what you've written about so far.

In optimization Uncanny trickster basically is used to advance a prestige class ; as is legacy champion- your group seems to highly optimize.

It seems that your group is hand waiving the racial requirement for Runesmith.

I believe you use both classes to determine if you qualify; yes. According the SRD you use both classes to determine if you can advance into a prestige class; although a prestige class only takes up one half of a gestalt still.

My interpretation: Your GM seems to be suggesting to augment your defenses for some reason.

Question: is your GM allowing you access to the Oracle Domain spells?

[Dalfte]

In optimization Uncanny trickster basically is used to advance a prestige class ; as is legacy champion- your group seems to highly optimize.

Yes, they do. It's kind of terrifying. I'm not sure I made it clear but the suggestion was use uncanny trickster to advance loremaster then use legacy champion to advance uncanny trickster AND loremaster by proxy.



I believe you use both classes to determine if you qualify; yes. According the SRD you use both classes to determine if you can advance into a prestige class; although a prestige class only takes up one half of a gestalt still.

This is the primary confusing part. The character is a level 12 wizard - so meets all the minimum level requirements for the prestige classes suggested. However, the prestige classes as proposed are being taken on the side at a level below the minimum level requirement whereas the things I'm finding on gestalt have the character progressing both sides simultaneously.

And while your answer sounds like going back and adding earlier levels that rely on later levels on one side works... I'm not sure that's what you're saying

[Awakeninfinity]

This is the primary confusing part. The character is a level 12 wizard - so meets all the minimum level requirements for the prestige classes suggested. However, the prestige classes as proposed are being taken on the side at a level below the minimum level requirement whereas the things I'm finding on gestalt have the character progressing both sides simultaneously.

And while your answer sounds like going back and adding earlier levels that rely on later levels on one side works... I'm not sure that's what you're saying

No; but I would talk to your GM about it; I would advance two more levels in Duskblade before taking the Runesmith level; after that everything else looks fine as long as you keep up on your skills and feats. If that is what he suggests than either he's ruling that your gaining gestalt as a level 12 wizard (and qualifying from there) or is unaware/handwaiving it.

[razorback]

You can go Stoneblessed from Races of Stone to get around the needing to be a dwarf. Virtual dwarf.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Should do Warblade 15// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10, use the Otyugh Hole to get the Iron Will prerequisite. Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and use invest skill ranks to get a bonus to Spellcraft equal to your ranks (and have max ranks of course). Have a high enough bonus to Spellcraft to be able to take ten and succeed when using Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to an 8th level spell.

[Kayblis]

This is the primary confusing part. The character is a level 12 wizard - so meets all the minimum level requirements for the prestige classes suggested. However, the prestige classes as proposed are being taken on the side at a level below the minimum level requirement whereas the things I'm finding on gestalt have the character progressing both sides simultaneously.

Thing is, retraining a character doesn't allow you to make an illegal combination. The gestalt still has to pick PrCs when he has enough ranks in skills and the required prereqs, you can't just retrain a lv 15 character and turn it into 15 levels of PrCs because "you're technically level 15 when retrained". Other than that, you're fine, think of the Gestalt as just more class features, your skill ranks are still character-locked.

[Eldariel]

Here's the DM's recommendation - "Wizard 15// Duskblade 3/ Runesmith 1/ Loremaster 1/ Divine Oracle3/ Uncanny Trickster 3 (loremaster) / Legacy Champion 4 (advancing Uncanny trickster)"

Here are my problems with that recommendation -


runesmith requires dwarf (possibly something they are willing to handwave as the character is a gnome from a guild of dwarf/gnome crafters and runesmith feels thematically appropriate to that, also they've managed to learn a symbol which when scribed "does things which appear magical" though that probably has less to do with runesmithing than other things)
managing minimum class level requirements for the prc's is baffling - do all 15 levels of wizard count since the gestalt side is sort of being tacked on post character leveling? Does the character need to be legal as a gestalt at each level of progression since this is sort of quasi retraining?




I haven't even looked up uncanny trickster and legacy champion... I could just hand this to another member of the group to build, but I really want to understand how this comes together.

The prerequisites are pretty trivial. I'm a bit baffled by the Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion advancing Loremaster...I guess they want full casting advancement on both sides and maximize BAB or something? Lore isn't really that good, even if it's nice to have. This should be completely unnecessary as you already have full casting from the other side (the Wizard-side). There are probably some houserules afoot; otherwise you'd be better off just slamming some whatever there. If you wanna gish, Warblade or Factotum and perhaps some Spellsword levels or something would be nice for instance. 13 levels of Duskblade is nice too.

[Bphill561]

As stated above, I would be more concerned about what you want to play. That seems like an awful lot of prestige class jumping without a huge amount of pay off. The duskblade is cool, but you are losing most of the BAB and I don't know if the added spells really augments your wizard all that much. Also are you retraining your feats because feat selection might change if tacking on an additional set of gestalt classes?

If you want to gish, more Duskblade, Warblade (if you don't mind learning maneuvers), or even fighter levels would probably accomplish it better.

If you are a crafter, maybe a Maester dip from complete adventurer would be useful since it doubles your crafting speed and requires gnome anyway. Likewise on the gnome front, shadowcraft mage from races of the stone is incredibly powerful and should be tolerated in a high powered group. You could still start that side off with a gish base class to beef up your martial prowess.

If dragon magazine is allowed, I would be tempted to take levels in Eldritch Master (dragon #280). It does not progress spellcasting, but it does add in it's level for determining the level based effect of your arcane spells. It also grants an additional spell list to your list of spells known at level 4 and 8, pick cleric or whatever you wish to enhance your spell versatility. If you really like that idea, Eldritch Master 10/Uncanny Trickster 3 would get Eldritch master to 12 granting you 3 additional spell lists on the wizard. The class also gets a bonus metamagic feat every 3.

Something like Wizard 15// Duskblade 5/Eldritch Master 4/Maester 1/ Open 5

If they are really optimized, you might be able to get away with Savage progression template classes. Take 1 level in the half-dragon template class for 1 LA (assuming it only applies to one side) and advance it with uncanny trickster or legacy champion for no addition LA but all the template goodies.

Really I would figure out what you are interested in adding with gestalt. If the DM thinks you need something, run your build through and see what he thinks you need to add.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I haven't even looked up uncanny trickster and legacy champion... I could just hand this to another member of the group to build, but I really want to understand how this comes together.

Don't worry, it doesn't really come together at all. It's just a mash-up of silly character-building tricks that don't even accomplish anything.

It's your character, make it do what you want it to do. Or tell us what you want your character to do, and we'll give you advice on how to do that without advancing one prestige class with a second prestige class and then advance that second class with a third prestige class only to make the second class advance the first one more.