Moving my build from 5e to 3.5

[Morgana]

Hello, I´ve been playing DnD for about 7 years, and 5e was the first edition I actually really enjoyed(no disrespect to 4e fans, it just really wasn´t my cup of tea). But lately, I´ve been getting annoyed by how little options the edition provides, and as a fan of Order of the Stick I kinda started becoming very interested into looking into 3.5. Problem is that there are lots of options, and unlike 5e is actually very easy to make a character that completely sucks, and while you can make about any character on it, you need knowledge of like a bunch of obscure rulebooks and a good mastery of the rules.

As such, I´d like help with migrating one of my 5e character. They´re a level 7 vengeance paladin 4/swashbuckler 3, now I have come to a few problems when applying all that to 3.5. Mainly that I´m adding another stat to the paladin´s already MAD build might be problematic, and that rogue and paladin are generally regarded as somewhat weaker classes that don´t even mash. Now I don´t really need this character to be a rogue/paladin, which kinda goes to my next point where I´d like to estabilish what sort of qualities I want to carry over from the 5e build.

1. Melee combatant
I want my main form of damage to come from fighting with a weapon, but then enhance that with abilities akin to sneak attack and smite, I want this character to feel very assassin like, in the sense that he exploit gaps in the enemy´s defenses and such.
2. Lawful Good
That´s his alignment
3. Divine caster
I want him to be this divine assassin, I kinda want his powers to derive from an oath or a god
4. Skillful
I want him to be very good at stealthing around and maybe tracking?

Some of my ideas thus far have been maybe going into the avenger class, I also heard there were some ways of mixing rogue/cleric, also ranger might fit the overall theme pretty well

[Crake]

Rogue into avenger is a pretty good way to go, it fills almost all of your criteria, with one exception: it's spellcasting is arcane, not divine, but if you can live with that, then you pretty much have your character set.

[Xaotiq1]

If your comfortable re-fluffing inspiration points as flashes of divine insight, Factotum from Dungeonscape could work for you.

[magic9mushroom]

I'd suggest Cleric 4/Rogue 1/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cleric +X with Sacred Outlaw. Loses one level of Cleric casting and half a die of Sneak Attack, otherwise full progression of both. Also requires Lawful Good as an alignment. You get a decent amount of skill points from the Rogue and Shadowbane Stalker levels, but you might want to supplement it with high Int and/or Able Learner.

Shadowbane Stalker is from Complete Adventurer. Sacred Outlaw is a feat from Dragon #357.

[Troacctid]

Slayer of Domiel is kind of a divine assassin prestige class akin to avenger. It's from Book of Exalted Deeds. Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II) is a good smitey class. Crusader (Tome of Battle) is always a fine choice for melee fighters; ruby knight vindicator (from the same book) combines it with divine casting.

[ben-zayb]

An unusual direction would be to go for Tome of Battle and take Crusader / Paladin (or Cleric) / Ruby Knight Vindicator, maybe with a Swordsage dip. You'd want the adaptation of RKV to worship a deity that matches your LG alignment. Shadow Hand discipline gives the stealth mechanics and sneak attack that you would want from Rogue.

[MisterKaws]

In 3.5, the second you use a sneak attack as a Paladin, you lose all your class features unless you're also a level 10 Gray Guard. Thanks Code of Conduct.

You can do the same thing by a roundabout method with just 2 books: Player's Handbook and Book of Exalted Deeds. The build stub would be: Rogue 5/Slayer of Domiel 4/Fist of Raziel +X, taking Knowledge(Religion) as a cross-class skill at all levels.

Now, there's also the better way, which involves some other books, but mainly Unearthed Arcana and Tome of Battle. I'll post a more complete build stub for this one(race=Human):



Level
BAB

Class

Feats

Skills needed

Sneak Attack



1

+1

Sneak Attack Fighter(UA) 1

Weapon Finesse, Servant of the Heavens(Human Bonus)

Knowledge(Religion) +4/2

1d6



2

+1

Swordsage 1

Weapon Focus(Shadow Hand-Swordsage bonus)

Hide +3, Move Silently +3




3

+1

Rogue 1

Sanctify Martial Strike(Shortsword)

Hide +3, Move Silently +3, Knowledge(Religion) +2/2, Diplomacy +1

2d6



4

+2

Rogue 2


Hide +1, Move Silently +1, Diplomacy +4




5

+3

Rogue 3


Hide +1, Move Silently +1, Knowledge(Religion) +2/2

3d6



6

+3

Slayer of Domiel 1

Shadow Blade

Knowledge(Religion) +1/2

4d6



7

+4

Slayer of Domiel 2


Knowledge(Religion) +1/2




8

+5

Slayer of Domiel 3



5d6



9

+6

Slayer of Domiel 4

Power Attack





10

+7

Fist of Raziel 1






11

+8

Fist of Raziel 2






12

+9

Fist of Raziel 3

Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance)


7d6




Now here's the thing: if your DM uses partial bonuses(from UA), you can take one less in Slayer of Domiel, swap the order between Power Attack and Shadow Blade, and enter Fist of Raziel at 9th level instead. You can play this effectively as your wished character starting from lvl 6 anyway, though I have to warn you: Smite sucks in 3.5. but I guess the build is otherwise kinda decent for an assassin-like character. Though you'd be taking Hide and Move Silently as Cross-Class while in Fist of Raziel, so I'd recommend trying to get a Flaw(UA) to pick Able Learner(from Races of Destiny) to lower skill costs, otherwise you'd need at least 12 int just to pick the 2 stealth basics.

Whew, I wrote a ton.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, you needn't overthink this. I think your two best bets are straight Ranger (Mystic Ranger optimally - you can get Sneak Attack with the spell "Hunter's Eye" [Player's Handbook II] and everything else you have from the class chassis already) or just go straight Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cloisteredCleric)*and pick appropriate domains (Trickery gives you Hide and Bluff, for instance - you can refer to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) for more details). Cloistered Cleric with Law-domain traded for Law Devotion [Complete Champion] and Knowledge-domain traded for Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] would have very solid attack bonuses, good skills, decent damage and all the good stuff. You can use spells with e.g. Smiting Spell [PHBII] to deliver a smiting (in addition to the buff Law Devotion can give you where desired). Alternatively, you could also go unarmed (which isn't a bad move overall) and deliver touch spells á la Inflict Wounds, Bestow Curse, etc. with your punches, which actually works really well. You can of course also use a Spellstoring [DMG] weapon (that you've potentially crafted yourself or one that's even an Ancestral Relic [Book of Exalted Deeds] or similar).

Well, if you went Cloistered Cleric, you could also multiclass into Ruathar [Races of the Wild] and take Able Learner [Races of Destiny] to expand your stealth skill list to cover all the important ones. Knowledge Devotion does a good job of "study your target and deliver extra punishing hits"; you need not take every Knowledge-skill used for identifying monster beyond 1 point (Arcane, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, The Planes) as you can pump them with Divine Insight [Spell Compendium] and Guidance of the Avatar [Web (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)] to boost your check for the bonuses. You should probably also take Power Attack and unload your to hit bonuses onto it to maximize your damage. Divine Power on level 7 would allow you to reach full Base Attack Bonus too. Divine Favor is another nice personal buff kinda in tune with Smiting and Blade of Blood [Player's Handbook II] is a great spell to that end as well. You can easily afford to feed it with your own life energy as you are a Cleric and can effortlessly heal yourself if need be.

[GrayDeath]

A lot depends on the optimization Level of your group.

That is the one huge difference between 5e and 3.x, depedning on how you build your character he can be easily 3 times as powerful/good at his shtick if you truly know what you are doing and have access to a lot of books.

Clarify that with the DM first.

A simpler way to achieve what you mentioned would liekly be Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist for an unarmed and fast Version, or Cleic/Rogue/Shadowbane Stalker as mentioned above for a most direct translation of "LG Assassin Type.

If Homebrew is in, I have a Divine Assassin class almost done lying around somewhere (made it for a game that never happened), or you and your DM might do a changed Paladin (replace Code of Conduct with Oath of obedience, Smite with Sneak Attack, heavy Armor Proficiency with a movement speed bonus, and you are practically done for a low Power game).

[Anthrowhale]

Here's an approach emphasizing skills.

Human Cloistered Cleric (Planning, Time, Knowledge) (Destroy Undead ACF) 1/Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Sacred Exorcist 1 (for Turn Undead)/Cloistered Cleric 1/Contemplative 1[War Domain]/Cloistered Cleric 9

Human: Able Learner (nearly all skills effectively on list)
Time Domain: Improved Initiative
Knowledge Domain->Knowledge Devotion
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
1. Persistent Spell
3. DMM[Persistent spell] //You can Persist Divine Favor
6. Power Attack (use the mace 2-handed for extra damage)
9. Sacred Outlaw (+1d6 SA / 2 cleric levels)
War domain: Weapon Focus[Heavy Mace or Warmace]
12. Despana School ("Flank" from the front when next to your summons)
15. Holy Warrior (+1 damage / 2 cleric levels)
18. Extra Turning (more persistent spells)

You average 6+Int skills/level throughout and all skills are bought at 1/level.
You have 9d6 sneak attack and can sneak attack in the face via Despana School.
You have full cleric spellcasting retarded by 1 level.
You can persist key spells (Divine Favor, Divine Power, etc...) enhancing melee prowess powered by two turning pools.

Variants: Rogue 3/ Cloistered Cleric 17 sacrifices spellcasting for the penetrating strike ACF and some simplicity.

[Seerow]

I'd suggest Cleric 4/Rogue 1/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cleric +X with Sacred Outlaw. Loses one level of Cleric casting and half a die of Sneak Attack, otherwise full progression of both. Also requires Lawful Good as an alignment. You get a decent amount of skill points from the Rogue and Shadowbane Stalker levels, but you might want to supplement it with high Int and/or Able Learner.

Shadowbane Stalker is from Complete Adventurer. Sacred Outlaw is a feat from Dragon #357.

This is the route I'd take, though I would add a dip into ordained champion, to convert turn undead attempts into smite evil, to get that paladin smite flavor without paladin.

[Eldariel]

Actually, since Smite was on the table, Cleric can get Wis "Smites" through at least two ways:
- Illumian [Races of Destiny race] - Aeshhoon runeword (it's basically a human with floating runes on its head)
- Ordained Champion 5 [Complete Champion] (a great class overall, might actually fit here though it's short on skillpoints)
- You could always ask after Divine Might [Complete Warrior] + Serenity [DR306]*though by RAW that certainly doesn't work.

Of course, you could also have the Cha for Cha Smites but that would be horridly MAD.

[Morgana]

Oooh, this all sounds very cool, thanks everyone! Still not too sure about what route I´ll take, but I´m glad that pretty much everything you can do in 5e is possible in 3.5

[Falontani]

In 3.5, the second you use a sneak attack as a Paladin, you lose all your class features unless you're also a level 10 Gray Guard. Thanks Code of Conduct.



Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Sneak Attack does not break a paladin's code of conduct by RAW. I could see a dm trying to argue that stabbing someone in the back (literally) is dishonorable, in which case paladins can't flank. However Shadowbane Initiator (No matter how much this LG class is trying to push your paladin to Blackguard) is a sneak attack paladin prestige class. The feat Sacred Initiator from the same book even gives BONUSES to doing a smite evil with a sneak attack.
Your build however, is pretty good.

[Rebel7284]

Ruby Knight Vindicator is probably the best way of doing it. Something like Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10

Assassin's Stance for the Sneak Attack. Maneuvers for smiting.

[magic9mushroom]

Ruby Knight Vindicator is probably the best way of doing it. Something like Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10

Assassin's Stance for the Sneak Attack. Maneuvers for smiting.

Assassin's Stance is Sneak Attack, but it's bells-and-whistles Sneak Attack, not bread-and-butter Sneak Attack. Manoeuvres and divine self-buffs have pretty similar levels of being "smite" anyway.

Also, RKV's pretty meh unless you have a plan to abuse Divine Impetus (e.g. Shadow Pounce or Battle Blessing). You lose two caster levels, or three if you actually take a level of a martial adept class; Weeaboo Fightan Magic is good, but not that good. I mean, clerics are hilariously good anyway, so it's not a big deal, but in optimisation terms "Thou Shalt Not Give Up Caster Levels" is a maxim for a reason.


Eldariel: Aeshoon "smites" are +0 to attack and +Wis to damage. Paladin/Ordained Champion 2 smites are +Cha to attack and +level to damage, while Destruction domain smites are +4 to attack and +level to damage. Cha smites > Aeshoon even if you're not pumping Cha. Regarding Ordained Champion: Channel Spell is broken (though much less broken than it was pre-errata), but I don't think the last two levels are worth it.

While looking up Aeshoon, though, I did come across Vauluur. 2/day, sac an Nth-level spell slot as a swift action to get +Nd6 to sneak attack for the round. That's actually pretty good.

[Anthrowhale]

While looking up Aeshoon, though, I did come across Vauluur. 2/day, sac an Nth-level spell slot as a swift action to get +Nd6 to sneak attack for the round. That's actually pretty good.

Arcane Strike (For 1 round, N = spell level, +N to hit +Nd4 damage) is strictly better in the presence of power attack. Pairing with Alternate Source Spell would give a potent smite-like effect of otherwise-divine spells.

[Eldariel]

Arcane Strike (For 1 round, N = spell level, +N to hit +Nd4 damage) is strictly better in the presence of power attack. Pairing with Alternate Source Spell would give a potent smite-like effect of otherwise-divine spells.

Arcane Strike doesn't prevent the use of both, though. Arcane Strike is a free action, after all.

[Anthrowhale]

Arcane Strike doesn't prevent the use of both, though. Arcane Strike is a free action, after all.

Yeah, combining them is quite potent. Since the Illumian version is only 2/day, the 'both' choice is only for the really tough fights, which seems fine.