Wraithstrike?

[danielxcutter]

How much AC does Wraithstrike(or other similar effects) tend to ignore? The short answer is "a lot", because most of the time it's just Dex + deflection, but I'd like to see something more... specific. I do know that unless it's a high-CR incorporeal monster(looking at you, Prismatic Golem), it's still going to be lower than total AC; the question is how *much*.

[MisterKaws]

For the usual bruiser monsters, it tends to at least halve their AC.

Unless it's a Dragon. In that case they just cast Scintillating Scales and laugh at you.

[magic9mushroom]

How much AC does Wraithstrike(or other similar effects) tend to ignore? The short answer is "a lot", because most of the time it's just Dex + deflection, but I'd like to see something more... specific. I do know that unless it's a high-CR incorporeal monster(looking at you, Prismatic Golem), it's still going to be lower than total AC; the question is how *much*.

It depends on level. At low levels, maybe a few points. At high levels, well... here are the ACs and touch ACs of the 9 CR 20 monsters in the MM (yes, I know the dragon CRs are lying, this is a ballpark).

Balor 35/16
Pit Fiend 40/17
Black Wyrm 39/6
Old Red 33/6
Ancient Brass 38/8
Very Old Bronze 37/8
Very Old Copper 36/8
Old Silver 35/8
Tarrasque 35/5

[Crake]

Uhh... well, the answer really just becomes "it depends on the monster". Some monsters have nothing BUT deflection/dex, like the nymph, others have literally NO deflection/dex, like the dragon. If you're looking for the average across monsters within a given CR? Well... I don't think anyone's put together that specific dataset, so you're probably out of luck. If you have a more specific range to compare to, maybe we can help, but yeah, otherwise the answer can't be more specific than "literally all it's AC to none of it's AC"

[danielxcutter]

For the usual bruiser monsters, it tends to at least halve their AC.

Unless it's a Dragon. In that case they just cast Scintillating Scales and laugh at you.

Well, if the dragon also uses other bonuses to AC, such as Mage Armor, it's still not totally useless... but yeah.


It depends on level. At low levels, maybe a few points. At high levels, well... here are the ACs and touch ACs of the 9 CR 20 monsters in the MM (yes, I know the dragon CRs are lying, this is a ballpark).

Balor 35/16
Pit Fiend 40/17
Black Wyrm 39/6
Old Red 33/6
Ancient Brass 38/8
Very Old Bronze 37/8
Very Old Copper 36/8
Old Silver 35/8
Tarrasque 35/5

The more I look at the ACs of dragons, the more I notice WotC did not want to make them fair fights.


Uhh... well, the answer really just becomes "it depends on the monster". Some monsters have nothing BUT deflection/dex, like the nymph, others have literally NO deflection/dex, like the dragon. If you're looking for the average across monsters within a given CR? Well... I don't think anyone's put together that specific dataset, so you're probably out of luck. If you have a more specific range to compare to, maybe we can help, but yeah, otherwise the answer can't be more specific than "literally all it's AC to none of it's AC"

Nymphs and other monsters with only deflection + dex(mostly incorporeals methinks) do appear to be a lot rarer than the opposite end of the spectrum, I guess.

Would you say a 5-point Power Attack would reasonable to start with, then adjust according to how often attacks hit?

[Crake]

Nymphs and other monsters with only deflection + dex(mostly incorporeals methinks) do appear to be a lot rarer than the opposite end of the spectrum, I guess.

Would you say a 5-point Power Attack would reasonable to start with, then adjust according to how often attacks hit?

I would gauge it based on the monster in question honestly. A fighter tromping around in fullplate or a dragon you can probably get away with a lot of power attack, but against a nimbly, swift enemy like an air elemental or a frostwind virago, I'd pull back on the power attack.

[Mr Adventurer]

It depends on level. At low levels, maybe a few points. At high levels, well... here are the ACs and touch ACs of the 9 CR 20 monsters in the MM (yes, I know the dragon CRs are lying, this is a ballpark).

Balor 35/16
Pit Fiend 40/17
Black Wyrm 39/6/13
Old Red 33/6/13
Ancient Brass 38/8/14
Very Old Bronze 37/8/14
Very Old Copper 36/8/14
Old Silver 35/8/14
Tarrasque 35/5

EDIT: Added touch AC after Scintillating Scales for the dragons.

What? Listed AC for dragons is just size, Dex, and natural armour surely - so touch AC with Scintillating Scales would equal normal AC?

[danielxcutter]

I would gauge it based on the monster in question honestly. A fighter tromping around in fullplate or a dragon you can probably get away with a lot of power attack, but against a nimbly, swift enemy like an air elemental or a frostwind virago, I'd pull back on the power attack.

I'll have to check the virago, but don't air elementals also have decent natural armor bonuses? As for the dragon... well, check if the DM has Draconomnomnomicon or Spell Compendium next to them, I guess.


What? Listed AC for dragons is just size, Dex, and natural armour surely - so touch AC with Scintillating Scales would equal normal AC?

The original Draconomnomnomicon version adds deflection bonus equal to Con bonus and subtracts natural armor bonus by half that. The SpC version supersedes that, which functions in the way you mention.

[magic9mushroom]

Blergh. They also upped the duration from round/level to minute/level, it seems. Goes from a decent if kinda weird Sor2 spell to an absolutely-ridiculous spell for the level that just arbitrarily doesn't work for PCs.

[danielxcutter]

Blergh. They also upped the duration from round/level to minute/level, it seems. Goes from a decent if kinda weird Sor2 spell to an absolutely-ridiculous spell for the level that just arbitrarily doesn't work for PCs.

I dunno, you might get this to work with some kind of Arcane Hierophant build I guess?

[ericgrau]

Unless it's a Dragon. In that case they just cast Scintillating Scales and laugh at you.

Does this actually work in practice without DM metagaming?

Because in practice it sounds more like they waste a precious round worth of effectiveness, dropping their effective CR by about 1-2, to maybe or maybe not have a benefit which they cannot predict and doesn't apply 95% of the time.

I mean you may as well say every spell is useless and mages are terrible because there is a spell to counter each spell. But, uh, that can't be done reliably. And so standard action round/minute per level defense spells are far far worse than related attack spells.

[Boci]

Does this actually work in practice without DM metagaming?

Because in practice it sounds more like they waste a precious round worth of effectiveness, dropping their effective CR by about 1-2, to maybe or maybe not have a benefit which they cannot predict.

I mean you may as well say every spell is useless and mages are terrible because there is a spell to counter each spell. But, uh, that can't be done reliably. And round/level standard action defensive spells are actually super poor spells.

Dragons are smart, they probably know touch AC is a big weakness for them. And as mentioned, the newer version of the spell is minutes/level and has no downside, unless the PCs have a way of ignoring defelction bonuses to AC.

[ericgrau]

Dragons are smart, they probably know touch AC is a big weakness for them. And as mentioned, the newer version of the spell is minutes/level and has no downside, unless the PCs have a way of ignoring defelction bonuses to AC.
The casting time is the glaring, extraordinarily painful downside. Switching attack types OTOH is a non-action.

[Biggus]

Does this actually work in practice without DM metagaming?

Because in practice it sounds more like they waste a precious round worth of effectiveness, dropping their effective CR by about 1-2, to maybe or maybe not have a benefit which they cannot predict and doesn't apply 95% of the time.

I mean you may as well say every spell is useless and mages are terrible because there is a spell to counter each spell. But, uh, that can't be done reliably. And so standard action round/minute per level defense spells are far far worse than related attack spells.

I'm guessing a lot of older dragons probably have the Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell feats, and/ or Contingency. And considering that low touch AC is pretty much their only weakness, it seems worth the effort to me.

[TiaC]

With the crazy-good speed and senses possessed by dragons, they can pull away from combat for one round and be out of spell range, giving them a chance to buff unmolested. They also can quicken it, it's only 2nd level.

[ericgrau]

I'm guessing a lot of older dragons probably have the Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell feats, and/ or Contingency. And considering that low touch AC is pretty much their only weakness, it seems worth the effort to me.

CR 21ish can pull off quicken. That's kinda late game. And many foes don't even have touch attacks. In how to kill a dragon threads I see various suggestions such as SoDs, shivering touch yes, and there's always damage. And if you are afraid every dragon will have scintillating scales then you simply don't use touch attacks. Boom, every dragon must blow a round simply because wraithstrike and shivering touch exist, even if they never get cast, and all dragons are much easier to fight. Because even at low optimization he has maybe 2-4 rounds to be effective before the fight is just cleanup. And he just lost the most valuable one of those 2-4.

How many DMs here have actually tried using that spell and what happened? It doesn't seem that feasible. At least not on the defensive. On the offensive, ok, maybe. But even then it's one less attack buff or etc. Wraithstrike OTOH is a swift action, so there's little to lose. The melee gish can say "Oh, darn, well at least half of my attacks still hit and I didn't lose any attacks."

[Boci]

How many DMs here have actually tried using that spell and what happened? It doesn't seem that feasible. At least not on the defensive. On the offensive, ok, maybe. But even then it's one less attack buff or etc. Wraithstrike OTOH is a swift action, so there's little to lose. The melee gish can say "Oh, darn, well at least half of my attacks still hit and I didn't lose any attacks."

If the gish was going max power attack, then its very likely they missed with all their attacks, not just half.

[ericgrau]

With the crazy-good speed and senses possessed by dragons, they can pull away from combat for one round and be out of spell range, giving them a chance to buff unmolested. They also can quicken it, it's only 2nd level.
Then he's outdoors and probably had a chance to buff anyway. Hmm, so I can see how the spell might be used half the time. Even then it's not such an easy choice compared to other spells, because I'm not so sure most attacks from PCs are touch attacks. Last time someone asked how to attack a dragon most people mentioned a lot of targeted save-or-dies. Even some that dragons are immune to. That seemed like the popular way.


If the gish was going max power attack, then its very likely they missed with all their attacks, not just half.
Not likely the first round while he tests the waters. And that assumes he has power attack and wraithstrike yet didn't go shock trooper. This is getting more and more narrow and I'm trying to ask "what are 95% of actual attacks?" Not what is every type of attack no matter how uncommon. Or else how has this acutally played out in practice, not in theory?

[MisterKaws]

You guys seem to forget Dragons usually have Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion. They don't need to worry about action economy.

[ericgrau]

You guys seem to forget Dragons usually have Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion. They don't need to worry about action economy.
So CR 23ish and CR 20ish this time. And now that's the 3rd time with responses similar to that, which only makes me more skeptical that this is only theory. Can anyone, like a DM, describe how scintillating scales actually worked out in practice?

[Ramza00]

You guys seem to forget Dragons usually have Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion. They don't need to worry about action economy.

A flying dragon who can avoid the combat for several rounds via buffing and flying several hundred feat away from the irritant party has no need to worry.

But in the Lair of the Dragon it is rocket-tag. Even with Arcane Spellsurge (Swift Action to activate for Dragonblood Creatures which include Dragons, thus two spells in the first round with Arcane Fusion, and 3+ more spells in Round 2 or more), Dragons that die in the first round of combat can't bring out all their shiny toys.

-----

We need to remember the CR of the encounter is not just the monster in the battle but also the environment around the monster which allows different styles of tactics. A Dragon inside his lair without magical traps is a different form of encounter vs A Dragon outside with room to fly and avoid combat for several rounds which in turn allow substantial buffing and hit and run tactics.

[Eldariel]

Blergh. They also upped the duration from round/level to minute/level, it seems. Goes from a decent if kinda weird Sor2 spell to an absolutely-ridiculous spell for the level that just arbitrarily doesn't work for PCs.

Why wouldn't it work for PCs? Polymorph and Wildshape are in the game...

[Mr Adventurer]

So CR 23ish and CR 20ish this time. And now that's the 3rd time with responses similar to that, which only makes me more skeptical that this is only theory. Can anyone, like a DM, describe how scintillating scales actually worked out in practice?

I've run it in real encounters. The dragon typically knows there's a threat, by lair defences or just sky-high Listen checks, and casts it in advance.

Then it makes any blasters extremely unhappy - rays, orbs, grasp spells are all neutered coming from a character with unoptimised attack rolls. A lot of debuffs are rays or touch, too.

[MisterKaws]

So CR 23ish and CR 20ish this time. And now that's the 3rd time with responses similar to that, which only makes me more skeptical that this is only theory. Can anyone, like a DM, describe how scintillating scales actually worked out in practice?

Ehh, my creatures tend to be optimized to high-hell. I just take Loredrake as a given.

[Eldariel]

Then he's outdoors and probably had a chance to buff anyway. Hmm, so I can see how the spell might be used half the time. Even then it's not such an easy choice compared to other spells, because I'm not so sure most attacks from PCs are touch attacks. Last time someone asked how to attack a dragon most people mentioned a lot of targeted save-or-dies. Even some that dragons are immune to. That seemed like the popular way.

The most common way suggested to attack Dragons is Shivering Touch, which is, of course, a no-save touch attack that autoparalyzes non-cold Dragons. Given it's a 3rd level spell, I'd expect every Dragon needs to be prepared for it as otherwise they go down like flies to anyone with Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch. It incidentally covers a lot of their other weaknesses too: low Touch AC is the only innate Dragon weakness so it's probably the one prospective dragon hunters are most likely to try and exploit. Which means that ancient creatures of immense power would probably work to cover said weakness. It's the first 2nd level spell I generally have my Dragons learn (1st level obviously has Blood Wind and Mage Armor as pretty much free nice-stuff).

[Biggus]

Because in practice it sounds more like they waste a precious round worth of effectiveness, dropping their effective CR by about 1-2, to maybe or maybe not have a benefit which they cannot predict and doesn't apply 95% of the time.


Wraithstrike isn't the only reason to cast Scintillating Scales; for any dragon old enough to be able to cast it, their low touch AC is by far their biggest weakness, and any Wizard will know that. In a world in which Shivering Touch is a generally-available spell, one of the first things mother dragons will teach their young is "as soon as you're old enough to cast spells, ALWAYS cast Scintillating Scales immediately you're attacked".

And it's not only Shivering Touch, spells like Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness can seriously cramp a dragon's style, and the latter two can be cast Quickened by any Wizard who's high enough level to threaten a spellcasting dragon.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, and if you've got a really high-level dragon, Persistent Spell is a thing.

Now can we get back to Wraithstrike, please?

[Crake]

I'll have to check the virago, but don't air elementals also have decent natural armor bonuses? As for the dragon... well, check if the DM has Draconomnomnomicon or Spell Compendium next to them, I guess.

They do have natural armor bonuses, but my point was more that their touch ACs will still be generally higher due to their large dex bonuses, so you would have to power attack for less to compensate. Likewise for dragons, not every dragon has spellcasting (i'm looking at you planar dragons), or is necessarily going to be old enough to cast scintillating scales (wraithstrike is a fairly low level spell that should come online rather early, before most dragons can cast), or hell, if you see the dragon's scales scintillating, just get the wizard, who will generally speaking be a much higher caster level than the dragon for it's CR, to dispel it before you full attack.

[TiaC]

Then he's outdoors and probably had a chance to buff anyway. Hmm, so I can see how the spell might be used half the time. Even then it's not such an easy choice compared to other spells, because I'm not so sure most attacks from PCs are touch attacks. Last time someone asked how to attack a dragon most people mentioned a lot of targeted save-or-dies. Even some that dragons are immune to. That seemed like the popular way.
If they're inside, it's likely in their lair, where good senses and alarms give them a chance to buff.

PCs don't use that many touch attacks, but there are non-PC threats to dragons that could be a big enough threat to justify it. Incorporeal undead can hurt a dragon pretty badly.

[Ramza00]

PCs don't use that many touch attacks
Lots of Ranged Touch Attack Spells too :smallwink:

There are so many ways to do a spell with different forms of rolls (ranged touch, touch, attack, Fort, Reflex, Will, SR, etc.)

The problem with Dragons is they are expected to be a final boss and thus you have an idea there is going to be an upcoming encounter and you can prepare the right tool for the job to take down the Dragon and touch attacks are the dragon's weakness while their saves and spell resistance are their defensive strengths.

---

But yeah a Dragon NPC done by a competent DM will be using that 2nd level spell or instead of that taking Fist of the Forest. There is a 3 feat tax but 2 of the feats are good for a Dragon (Great Fortitude , Improved Unarmed Strike , Power Attack) with Fist of the Forest giving you Con to AC with a 1 level dip. Plus Feral Strike which is +4 to your Dex and your unarmed strikes are 1d8+2+your normal modifiers to unarmed attacks such as strength and so on. Quite an easy class to reflavor as a savage form of Dragon who likes to hunt.

Also your dragon can easily take the 1st level spell Swift Wind and attack with its natural weapons+unarmed strikes+rapid strikes at ranged.

[magic9mushroom]

And that assumes he has power attack and wraithstrike yet didn't go shock trooper.

>Shock Trooper
>vs. dragon

That's not happening unless the dragon is somehow prevented from flying.

@Danielxcutter things are going a bit off-track because I provided you a pretty solid answer in my first post of the thread. Against monsters, it starts out low but is bigger than True Strike (20-30) by level 20. What else do you want us to say?

[Eldariel]

>Shock Trooper
>vs. dragon

That's not happening unless the dragon is somehow prevented from flying.

I dunno, if he's riding a Phantom Steed of at least CL12 his charge distance is 480' - that can often reach a Dragon. 540' if Hasted too.

[magic9mushroom]

I dunno, if he's riding a Phantom Steed of at least CL12 his charge distance is 480' - that can often reach a Dragon. 540' if Hasted too.

Ah, but there's a problem with that. Specifically, the intricacies of mounted combat rules!


Heedless Charge: To use this maneuver, you must charge and make the attack at the end of the charge using your Power Attack feat.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.

Also, unless you match the dragon's reach it'll AoO your Phantom Steed and probably one-shot it.

[Crake]

Ah, but there's a problem with that. Specifically, the intricacies of mounted combat rules!




Also, unless you match the dragon's reach it'll AoO your Phantom Steed and probably one-shot it.

Unless you have mounted combat and just roll a mega ride check to give your mount a huge effective AC?. But ultimately, all you really need is the fly spell, 120ft charge should be more than enough to cover the distance between you and the dragon doing a flyby attack with it's breath weapon until the very oldest of age categories, or, y'know, just delay until after the mage, have the mage dimension door you into charging distance, and boom, charge the dragon and nuke it in one ubercharge full attack, because #that'showinitiativeworks.

[magic9mushroom]

Unless you have mounted combat and just roll a mega ride check to give your mount a huge effective AC?. But ultimately, all you really need is the fly spell, 120ft charge should be more than enough to cover the distance between you and the dragon doing a flyby attack with it's breath weapon until the very oldest of age categories, or, y'know, just delay until after the mage, have the mage dimension door you into charging distance, and boom, charge the dragon and nuke it in one ubercharge full attack, because #that'showinitiativeworks.

I was referring to the dive rules, which are the only explicitly-permitted form of aerial charge I'm aware of - outside of somebody else teleporting you (which, admittedly, I missed), Fly isn't fast enough to be able to get above the dragon. Of course, now that I recheck them, I see that you need claw or talon attacks for a dive anyway.

I will note that even if you do allow non-dive aerial charges, they can't be upward unless you have perfect manoeuvrability (due to the "half speed" thing and how "nothing can hinder your movement").

EDIT: Hmm; it seems the DMG says you can make a charge while under a Fly spell (though the above issue with going up should still apply). Oops. Of course, then you have the issue about whether the Rules Compendium overrides that with its "Flying During A Charge" heading and grrrr movement rules are complicated. Blergh.

[Eldariel]

I was referring to the dive rules, which are the only explicitly-permitted form of aerial charge I'm aware of - outside of somebody else teleporting you (which, admittedly, I missed), Fly isn't fast enough to be able to get above the dragon. Of course, now that I recheck them, I see that you need claw or talon attacks for a dive anyway.

I will note that even if you do allow non-dive aerial charges, they can't be upward unless you have perfect manoeuvrability (due to the "half speed" thing and how "nothing can hinder your movement").

Phantom Steed has Air Walk, which enables a non-flying charge "across air" fairly easily. Though aerial charges are a matter of their own; Raptoran and Dragonborn can apparently do it with weapons too but RAW is a bit silly on other creatures.

[danielxcutter]

Lots of Ranged Touch Attack Spells too :smallwink:

There are so many ways to do a spell with different forms of rolls (ranged touch, touch, attack, Fort, Reflex, Will, SR, etc.)

The problem with Dragons is they are expected to be a final boss and thus you have an idea there is going to be an upcoming encounter and you can prepare the right tool for the job to take down the Dragon and touch attacks are the dragon's weakness while their saves and spell resistance are their defensive strengths.

---

But yeah a Dragon NPC done by a competent DM will be using that 2nd level spell or instead of that taking Fist of the Forest. There is a 3 feat tax but 2 of the feats are good for a Dragon (Great Fortitude , Improved Unarmed Strike , Power Attack) with Fist of the Forest giving you Con to AC with a 1 level dip. Plus Feral Strike which is +4 to your Dex and your unarmed strikes are 1d8+2+your normal modifiers to unarmed attacks such as strength and so on. Quite an easy class to reflavor as a savage form of Dragon who likes to hunt.

Also your dragon can easily take the 1st level spell Swift Wind and attack with its natural weapons+unarmed strikes+rapid strikes at ranged.

Do you mean Blood Wind from SpC?

@everone else in general: So, useful advice, but not much solid info yet. Eh, I still suppose that without specific touch AC boosting in mind, you're still going to get a massive effective boost to hit. Would 5 points as a rule of thumb for the opening rounds work okay, or am I off by a wide margin?

[Ramza00]

Do you mean Blood Wind from SpC?

Yes I meant Blood Wind (Spell Compedium), my brain was fried yesterday, I hope this Monday is better.

[stack]

This is for Pathfinder, (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJO7jh6WbHMXU0amIab8PXyLiLN4WaGBKNCXrCzzK_0/edit#gid=1965717242) but shows a compiled statistics for at least the first couple bestiaries. I don't have one for 3.5.

Average touch AC starts around 12 and mostly stays there or dips lower. I expect 3.5 is similar.

Note: This is something I found floating around the boards. I did not compile it.

[Piggy Knowles]

On mobile so I'm having trouble linking the optimization by the numbers PDF (I have it saved to my phone), but based on its average values by CR, and trimmed down to just show AC and only for CRs 1-20:



Challenge Rating
Avg AC
Avg touch AC
Avg FF AC


1
15.28
11.78
13.80



2
15.76
11.84
13.94



3
16.14
11.51
14.64



4
16.00
10.45
15.05



5
17.16
10.55
15.73



6
18.88
11.00
17.27



7
18.07
10.38
16.44



8
20.00
10.58
18.32



9
21.74
10.45
19.68



10
22.58
9.26
21.42



11
23.71
10.92
21.38



12
21.75
7.17
21.42



13
27.33
10.25
26.00



14
27.00
11.00
25.17



15
29.75
8.13
29.50



16
31.91
10.00
30.73



17
28.00
9.57
26.86



18
32.75
8.50
31.25



19
36.00
9.20
35.20



20
36.44
9.11
34.44



So as others have mentioned, AC generally scales with level but touch tends to remain relatively static or even drop. At the early levels targeting touch should be roughly worth about a +3 bonus, in the mid-game around +10 and in the later levels +20 or more.

[Anthrowhale]

I believe Piggy is referring to this URL (https://web.archive.org/web/20181014190900/http://download1334.mediafire.com/04c2vdbfhxig/ibe8q042m88o362/Optimization+by+the+Numbers.pdf).

[Piggy Knowles]

I believe Piggy is referring to this URL (https://web.archive.org/web/20181014190900/http://download1334.mediafire.com/04c2vdbfhxig/ibe8q042m88o362/Optimization+by+the+Numbers.pdf).

That's the one! I reference it enough that I have it saved as a PDF on my phone, but it's always a pain to find a version I can link to others. Super handy for getting an idea of what benchmarks are relevant for a character to hit.

[Anthrowhale]

That's the one! I reference it enough that I have it saved as a PDF on my phone, but it's always a pain to find a version I can link to others. Super handy for getting an idea of what benchmarks are relevant for a character to hit.

It's to bad this one doesn't list other defenses like SR and damage resistance/immunities.

[Awakeninfinity]

I've never seen wraithestrike get stopped by anything tbh; but I inform my GM's of the spell when I take Wraithestrike- so they know that counters exist for it.

But Yeah; late games tend to favor overly massive creatures that are easy to touch in the game's rules- so Rays and Touch attacks tend toward greater effectiveness.

I made sure that a lot of the enemies in my game are people sized and have high touch AC's just to throw off my party. ;)

[danielxcutter]

I've never seen wraithestrike get stopped by anything tbh; but I inform my GM's of the spell when I take Wraithestrike- so they know that counters exist for it.

But Yeah; late games tend to favor overly massive creatures that are easy to touch in the game's rules- so Rays and Touch attacks tend toward greater effectiveness.

I made sure that a lot of the enemies in my game are people sized and have high touch AC's just to throw off my party. ;)

To be fair, there is a certain amount of touch AC boosting that can be done before it starts infringing on BS territory, especially if said enemies don't have prior knowledge that the party favors such tactics.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Instead of casting 6th level spells and quickening it on his own, couldn't the dragon pick up Rapid Metamagic and a Lesser Rod of Quicken?

It'd be massively useful as most of his spells would fall within that Lv 3 or lower umbrella for a long while.

[Eldariel]

Instead of casting 6th level spells and quickening it on his own, couldn't the dragon pick up Rapid Metamagic and a Lesser Rod of Quicken?

It'd be massively useful as most of his spells would fall within that Lv 3 or lower umbrella for a long while.

It's also possible for it to be a Loredrake or Spellhoarding (or both), thus resulting in higher level slots. And Dragons qualify for Practical and Easy Metamagic and Metamagic School Focus rather easily (admittedly, the latter would be rather inefficient as taking Spell Focus in Abjuration is kinda silly) enabling Quickening it (and everything else) from 3rd-4th level slots. But overall, the spell is just too important to not have as it covers the single weakness Dragons' defenses have; thus you need to go through some means to get it.

[noob]

I'm guessing a lot of older dragons probably have the Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell feats, and/ or Contingency. And considering that low touch AC is pretty much their only weakness, it seems worth the effort to me.

do not forget that dragons can usually cast only while in their humanoid shape so of that list only contingency is convenient(unless your dragon just walks around all day in the superior human shape because it is better for most purposes and when you are a caster physical stats are irrelevant.)

[Mr Adventurer]

do not forget that dragons can usually cast only while in their humanoid shape so of that list only contingency is convenient(unless your dragon just walks around all day in the superior human shape because it is better for most purposes and when you are a caster physical stats are irrelevant.)

Don't be absurd. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells)

In addition many dragons don't have alternate form.

Are you doing this on purpose?

[NontheistCleric]

Don't be absurd. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells)

In addition many dragons don't have alternate form.

Are you doing this on purpose?

Well, his name is literally 'noob', so don't expect too much...

On the other hand, he is a Troll in the Playground.