Ghoul Glyph exploit

[martixy]

So, there's this 2nd level spell called Ghoul Glyph which is a No-Save-and-die spell (does have SR) that paralyzes for 1d6+2 rounds.
The limitation is, it affects only 5 ft, and can't be moved more than 5 ft.

But it can be moved 5 ft. So... what if you scribe the glyph inside a bag of holding than take it out, moving it no more than 5 ft?

Any reason why this wouldn't work?

[Zaq]

Depends on the exact wording, really. What book is it in?

I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the idea of a BoH not moving, though the extradimensional/nondimensional space rules are pretty vague at times.

[martixy]

Spell Compendium has it, p.105.

Do you mean that moving the bag of holding with the glyph inside counts as moving the glyph?

[Bohandas]

I think you'd have a stronger argument with a portable hole than a bag of holding, since the potrable hole's inyerior is explicitly called out as non-dimensional

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bag of Holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding): "The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions." I'm positive that the inside of the bag is still on the material plane and moves with the bag. It's not a portal to a pocket dimension, so anything inside the bag moves just as far as the bag itself.

Its casting time is 1 minute, but you can technically use Uncanny Forethought to cast it as a standard or full-round action.

[Albions_Angel]

Ghoul Glyph first appears in Libris Mortis. Its fantastic when used by Deathlocks. I love to ward a tomb with it, then have the door open a crack with the deathlock just visible inside.

The spell very clearly says


You can inscribe a ghoul glyph on a portable object, but if the object is moved more than 5 feet, the glyph fades.

So, here is how I see it.

Either you scribe it on a portable item outside of a bag of holding, put it in a bag of holding (maybe moving it a foot?) move the bag, take it back out (another foot?) and ... something happens...

OR

You climb into a bag of holding, scribe the glyph on an object WITHIN 2.5 ft of the opening from the INSIDE, climb out, close the bag, ensuring that the object doesnt fall further than 2.5ft away from the opening when you let go, move the bad, THEN pull it out, at which point ... something happens.

In situation a) I would rule that the universe is aware that the object is further than 5ft from its starting location, and has, in some way, physically traveled. The glyph fades. Either that, or closing the bag severs the connection to the real world in which case the glyph has no choice to but fade as its now an infinite distance from its starting location.

If you take the trouble to get INTO the bag, and find a way of making sure the object never falls further than 2.5 ft from the opening, thus allowing you to draw it out again, then sure, Ill give you that. Because that takes some thought.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Everything inside a Bag of Holding is on the same plane as the bag, it moves just as far as the bag moves.

[Jack_Simth]

So, there's this 2nd level spell called Ghoul Glyph which is a No-Save-and-die spell (does have SR) that paralyzes for 1d6+2 rounds.
The limitation is, it affects only 5 ft, and can't be moved more than 5 ft.

But it can be moved 5 ft. So... what if you scribe the glyph inside a bag of holding than take it out, moving it no more than 5 ft?

Any reason why this wouldn't work?

As noted: The "Easy" answer for a DM is that it counts as being moved, regardless.

However: Anything that can bypass the casting time makes it very exploitable. Duplicate it via Limited Wish or Miracle, perhaps. It's a no-save just lose spell.

[unseenmage]

From what I remember there is copypasta from Manual of the Planes describing extradimensional spaces as demiplanes in the Planar Handbook or 3.5 DMG (or both).

IIRC 'nondimensional' is an undefined descriptor. That or it was used interchangeably with extradimensional.

[Segev]

Just scribe it on the bottom of an Enveloping Pit, which has rules for opening it as a trap. People fall in and get paralyzed to boot!

[Jack_Simth]

As noted: The "Easy" answer for a DM is that it counts as being moved, regardless.

However: Anything that can bypass the casting time makes it very exploitable. Duplicate it via Limited Wish or Miracle, perhaps. It's a no-save just lose spell.

Ah, there we go: It's a touch spell. Cast it out of combat, designate a Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) as the toucher, and Hold the Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration). It can be attached to an object when combat begins, and as the familiar acts on the master's initiative, it doesn't even meaningfully compromise the master's ability to cast spells. Easily weaponized at 3rd level.

[Segev]

Ah, there we go: It's a touch spell. Cast it out of combat, designate a Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) as the toucher, and Hold the Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration). It can be attached to an object when combat begins, and as the familiar acts on the master's initiative, it doesn't even meaningfully compromise the master's ability to cast spells. Easily weaponized at 3rd level.

Good plan. Just need to be sure the familiar can avoid touching anything with whatever carries the charge before it's time. So charge the bird's beak and don't let it peck, or the snake's mouth and don't let it bite or bump into anything, etc. Don't charge the bird's talons.

[Vizzerdrix]

Good plan. Just need to be sure the familiar can avoid touching anything with whatever carries the charge before it's time. So charge the bird's beak and don't let it peck, or the snake's mouth and don't let it bite or bump into anything, etc. Don't charge the bird's talons.

Couldn't you use a beholderkin eyeball familiar's spellray eye to then turn it into a ray?

[Segev]

Couldn't you use a beholderkin eyeball familiar's spellray eye to then turn it into a ray?

Directly at time of casting, yes. That's a clever thought.

Similarly, Reach Spell would apply to it. As would using spectral hand to transmit it. Does it have a prohibitive casting time?

[Jack_Simth]

Directly at time of casting, yes. That's a clever thought.

Similarly, Reach Spell would apply to it. As would using spectral hand to transmit it. Does it have a prohibitive casting time?

One minute, yes.

[Segev]

One minute, yes.

Then using it through Reach Spell or the Beholderkin Eyeball's eyebeam is not going to work terribly well. Though maybe the Eyeball can hold the charge and discharge it as a ray? I am not sure if the touch-to-ray thing overlaps with the let-the-familiar-do-the-touch-spell thing.

I think you could still cast it, hold the charge yourself, and then cast spectral hand to deliver it at range, though.

[Cavir]

Ah, there we go: It's a touch spell. Cast it out of combat, designate a Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) as the toucher, and Hold the Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration). It can be attached to an object when combat begins, and as the familiar acts on the master's initiative, it doesn't even meaningfully compromise the master's ability to cast spells. Easily weaponized at 3rd level.


Good plan. Just need to be sure the familiar can avoid touching anything with whatever carries the charge before it's time. So charge the bird's beak and don't let it peck, or the snake's mouth and don't let it bite or bump into anything, etc. Don't charge the bird's talons.

Consider a Dread Necro's ghostly visage familiar to hold the charge. Incorporeal, so no need to worry about touching something too early. Give it to the visage, have it fly just beneath the surface to the target (a sentry, the BBEG behind his line of mooks), apply the glyph to the floor at the target's feet, giving a nice no-save hold.

The spell targets anything within 2 feet of it. I don't see anything about LoE. Have the glyph on the backside of a door, the bottom of a movable floor plate, behind a hidden plate in the middle of a long ladder. So many fun evil possibilities.

[Zaq]

All spells need LoE unless they say they don’t.