The Samurai Class

[CrazedGoblin]

i've looked everywere for stuff on the forums and eventually driven insane by the "you can only search every 300 seconds" rule ive decided to ask.

I have seen a link in someones signiture to a "fix for samuri" and as sods law likes doing the most prevented me from veiwing who it is so could anyone point me in the direction of any kind of samuri discussion or something please:smallbiggrin:

[psychoticbarber]

Samurai are...not typically well supported here. They're considered by most on the boards to be the weakest class available, and I'm sure many others will be more than willing to tell you why.

I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about them, I'm just trying to gently warn you about the maelstrom you may very well be walking into.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think the reason you were having trouble with the search feature is the fact that you can't spell "Samurai". :smallwink:

Samurai are fighters forced into a suboptimal fighting style with a special capstone ability that doesn't actually work. As a result, people tend not to like them.

[CrazedGoblin]

I think the reason you were having trouble with the search feature is the fact that you can't spell "Samurai". :smallwink:

Samurai are fighters forced into a suboptimal fighting style with a special capstone ability that doesn't actually work. As a result, people tend not to like them.

LOL very true, corrected

[Behold_the_Void]

The most common responses for playing a Samurai tend to be either a) play a Fighter or b) play a Warblade. Both are better options than playing the actual samurai class (especially in the case of option B, which doesn't become irrelevant after level 7-ish). The samurai is terrible both for mechanical and for fluff reasons.

[abadguy]

Try looking up the Samurai core class in Oriental Adventures. The Iaijutsu Focus is one of my favourite skills. Once played a Rogue/Samurai/Iaijutsu Master, pretty much a glass cannon but the a first round 10d6 damage was awesome.

[kamikasei]

Try looking up the Samurai core class in Oriental Adventures. The Iaijutsu Focus is one of my favourite skills. Once played a Rogue/Samurai/Iaijutsu Master, pretty much a glass cannon but the a first round 10d6 damage was awesome.

The OA Samurai is 3.0 and considered decent or good; the 3.5 Samurai is in Complete Warrior and widely derided.

[TheOOB]

With Tome of Battle out, the need for a samurai class is lessened, because you can just play a warblade who uses a katana and focuses on diamond mind and iron heart, it's useful and flavorful.

[CrazedGoblin]

Try looking up the Samurai core class in Oriental Adventures. The Iaijutsu Focus is one of my favourite skills. Once played a Rogue/Samurai/Iaijutsu Master, pretty much a glass cannon but the a first round 10d6 damage was awesome.

sounds groovey :smallbiggrin:

[Arakune]

If OA samurai was great, then why you can't use it? I don't think too much homebrewing is need to adapt him to 3.5.

[SoD]

I have seen a link in someones signiture to a "fix for samuri" and as sods law likes doing the most prevented me from veiwing who it is

Pretty sure I never made that law...there's a whole heap I have made for my campaigns, but I've never been big-headed enough to name them after myself. Maybe I should? Hmm, bit of food for thought, eh?

Anyway, Samurais. I'm afraid I don't have that much experience with them (never played as one, never been in a party with one, never DMed a group with one, only read over the stats and details once, in my first few months of DnDing)...as ignorant as it makes me sound, why are they considered here to be the weakest class avaliable?

[CrazedGoblin]

Pretty sure I never made that law...there's a whole heap I have made for my campaigns, but I've never been big-headed enough to name them after myself. Maybe I should? Hmm, bit of food for thought, eh?

no, wait its.. don't worry lol:smallsmile:

[Draz74]

As people have been saying, if you're a Tome of Battle fan you can just make a good samurai out of a Warblade.

If you're not a Tome of Battle fan ... just play a Fighter with the Frightful Presence feat from Draconomicon. You get everything that the Complete Warrior Samurai gets (except you have to get a high Dex if you actually want to use TWF). But you don't suck quite so hard.

[Miraqariftsky]

Bah. Who says you can't just play a samurai variant (bah. Just take a Fighter)who uses a naginata (glaive) or a no-dachi (greatsword) if you don't like the CW samurai.

[kamikasei]

Bah. Who says you can't just play a samurai variant (bah. Just take a Fighter)who uses a naginata (glaive) or a no-dachi (greatsword) if you don't like the CW samurai.

I feel the urge to link this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). And remember that there does exist a "samurai" archetype in fiction that can't be fully represented by a fighter just as there exists a "ninja" archetype that can't be represented by a rogue.

[vrellum]

Fixing the Samurai is doable. Take a fighter and focus on one or more of: mounted archery, spear (yari), polearm (naginata) or bastard sword. Stay far, far away from two-weapon fighting.

If you wish then you can fix the fighter so that it can actually represent some fictional archtypes besides the angry beastmaster. I would recommend giving the class a few more skillpoints and an expanded skill list.

[Dausuul]

Pretty sure I never made that law...there's a whole heap I have made for my campaigns, but I've never been big-headed enough to name them after myself. Maybe I should? Hmm, bit of food for thought, eh?

Sod's Law is another name for Murphy's Law: "Anything that can go wrong, will."

(If you were being humorous here, my apologies for spoiling the joke...)

[Dhavaer]

Sod's Law is another name for Murphy's Law: "Anything that can go wrong, will."

(If you were being humorous here, my apologies for spoiling the joke...)

You're thinking of Finagle's Law. Murphy's Law is "If there are two or more way to do something, and one of those ways results in a catastrophe, someone will do it that way."

[Ralfarius]

You're thinking of Finagle's Law. Murphy's Law is "If there are two or more way to do something, and one of those ways results in a catastrophe, someone will do it that way."
Wait, isn't Finagle's law just a 'folk' version of murhpy's law? Because Dictionary.com is saying Murphy's law is just the "anything that could go wrong, will" definition.

From Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=murphy%27s+law)

Murphy's Law
–noun
the facetious proposition that if something can go wrong, it will.
Also called Murphy's First Law.

[Draz74]

I thought a fundamental part of Murphy's Law was the addendum, "... and at the worst possible time."

[Ralfarius]

Yes, so says the fourth definition down on that page.

I'm sorry, I think I helped to derail this thread.

Uhhh... Basically, Samurai is a class that lacks effective abilities in 3.5, and there are a number of alternatives that can fit with the monk samurai flavour.

[Lord Tataraus]

Well, really what is the samurai compared to a fighter?

Level by level analysis:
{table=head]Level|Fighter|Samurai
1|Bonus Feat|Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword)
2|Bonus Feat|Limited TWF
3|--|Unrestrained Smite 1/day
4|Bonus Feat|--
5|--|Limited Quick Draw
6|Bonus Feat|+4 intimidate
7|--|Unrestrained Smite 2/day
8|Bonus Feat|Improved Initiative
9|--|--
10|Bonus Feat|Standard Action - Demoralize all in 30ft
11|--|Limited Improved TWF
12|Bonus Feat|Unrestrained Smite 3/day
13|--|--
14|Bonus Feat|Move Action - Demoralize all in 30ft
15|--|--
16|Bonus Feat|Limited Greater TWF
17|--|Unrestrained Smite 4/day
18|Bonus Feat|--
19|--|--
20|Bonus Feat|Frightful Presence[/table]

The samurai gets the same number of class features as the fighter gets bonus feats. However, the samurai's class features are extremely limited compared to the bonus feats of the fighter. Plus their weapons (bastard and short sword) are inferior to most other weapons and are the only weapons a samurai can use with his class features.

In short: a samurai is a very limited fighter based on a notoriously weak fighting style with weak weapons. And almost all class features can be emulated by feats (and as better versions), so just go with a fighter.

[Chronos]

To make sure I'm understanding that: He gets two-weapon-fighting and quickdraw feats, but only with Bastard Sword and Short Sword, and he's scary. Oh, and he can smite, too. Yeah, that does sound pretty pathetic.

I presume that, by saying that the capstone ability doesn't work, folks just mean that the HD it affects are so low as to be irrelevant to a level 20 character? As in, it technically works, but it just sucks?

[Shisumo]

I've been considering a couple of alternative class features for the samurai to see if I can't beef them up a bit.

Kiai Focus
Level: 3rd
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the Kiai Smite abilty at 3rd level, nor do you gain any additional daily uses of that ability at later levels.
Benefit: Once per day, you may give a great cry that focuses your mind and body on the destruction of your enemies. You may add your Charisma bonus (minimum +1) to all your damage rolls made with your katana or wakizashi for a number of rounds equal to your class level.
You gain an additional use of this abilty per day at every level you would have gained additional uses of Kiai Smite (7th, 12th, and 17th).

Warrior's Glare
Level: 4th
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the Staredown, Mass Staredown or Improved Staredown abilities.
Benefit: You may make a single melee attack against an opponent as a standard action. You may take a penalty on this attack up to an amount equal to your base attack bonus. If the attack hits, you can make an immediate Intimidate check against that opponent, adding a bonus equal to the penalty you applied to your attack. If you gain a damage bonus from the Kiai Smite or Kiai Focus abilities on this attack, you may apply that bonus to the check as well. If the check succeeds, the opponent is shakened for the rest of the encounter. You cannot use this ability to worsen an opponent's fear condition beyond shakened.
At 10th level, you may use this ability on an opponent who is already shakened to make them frightened.
At 14th level, you may take a full round action to make a full melee attack, using this ability on every target struck. Make a single Intimidate check and apply the results against the resistance checks of all targets. You cannot apply this ability's effects to the same target more than once per full attack. In addition, you may use this ability on an already frightened target to make them panicked.

[reorith]

cabbagetheif and i tried to fix it. pretty much made it a fighter with 4+int skill points and fluffy skills. the link is in my sig.

edit: it is under the spoiler with "contributions to the playground"

[Lord Tataraus]

To make sure I'm understanding that: He gets two-weapon-fighting and quickdraw feats, but only with Bastard Sword and Short Sword, and he's scary. Oh, and he can smite, too. Yeah, that does sound pretty pathetic.

Yep.


I presume that, by saying that the capstone ability doesn't work, folks just mean that the HD it affects are so low as to be irrelevant to a level 20 character? As in, it technically works, but it just sucks?

Exactly, Will save DC 20+cha or:
{table=head]HD|Effect
up to 4|Panicked, 4d6 rnds
5-19|Shaken 4d6 rnds
20+|nothing[/table]

So unless you fight swarms of little guys, nothing happens. Great capstone ability, especially since there is a feat to get almost the same thing (AFB).

[Roderick_BR]

I like more the Master Samurai (don't know if it was updated to 3.5 or not) mostly because of the fluffy.
It's a PrC, meaning that you start off as a normal guy, only studying under a sensei (i.e.: start as a 1st level fighter), and after a certain level, you finally becomes a samurai. You don't start being a full samurai at 1st level.
The abilities are not so bad. Twice strenght bonus when using a bastard sword two-handed (instead of x1.5), ability to deal max damage (except on criticals) a couple times a day, and these things.

[Dr. Weasel]

Dhaver's right on the Murphy's law bit. It's really not as pessimistic as it's made out to be, more of a "don't provide an option for somebody to screw something up" than a "life's out to get us all" sort of statement.

[Nowhere Girl]

Samurai's good for a one-level dip if you're planning to take a level of Exotic Weapon Master later in order to get Uncanny Blow, since the bastard sword happens to be an excellent weapon to use with that ability.

That's about it.

[leperkhaun]

If you go with the OA class, at first level you get a masterwork katana and the other thing. not too bad, useless to take it past that though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you go with the OA class, at first level you get a masterwork katana and the other thing. not too bad, useless to take it past that though.

Apart from the Will save or skill points.

[Person_Man]

I dug out my homebrew Samurai that I made a while back. Maybe it will be useful to you.

Basically, it gets a free weapon, 4 bonus feats over spread out over the first 13 levels, a fear ability that improves with your progression, an Iaijutsu Focus ability that improves with your progression, Mettle, Improved Mettle, and a capstone ability based on the feats you choose.

Samurai

Full BAB
d8 hit points
4 Skill points per level
Skill List: Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Handle Animal, Knowledge (history, nobility and royalty), Listen, Profession, Ride, Spot, Sense Motive.
Strong Fort and Will Save, weak Ref Save
Simple and martial weapon proficiency.
Full armor proficiency, all shields (except tower shields).
Alignment: Any Lawful
Starting Gold: 1d4*5 gp.

Level
1) Samurai Code, Ancestral Relic
2) Kiai Smite once per day
3) Bonus feat
4) Awe Inspiring
5) Iaijutsu Focus
6) Kiai Smite twice per day
7) Mettle
8) Staredown
9) Bonus feat
10) Kiai Smite three times per day
11) Improved Iaijutsu Focus
12) Improved Staredown
13) Bonus feat
14) Kiai Smite four times per day
15) Improved Mettle
16) Mass Staredown
17) Greater Iaijutsu Focus
18) Kiai Smite five times per day
19) Samurai Lord
20) Frightful Presence

Samurai Code: You must remain Lawful to remain a Samurai. You should also develop a Samurai code appropriate to your belief system and the game world that you are living in. If you ever knowingly and willingly break your own Samurai code, then your Ancestral Relic looses all magical properties until you sufficiently atone. If you ever cease to be of Lawful alignment, your Ancestral Relic loses all magical properties for you permanently and you cannot take additional levels of Samurai, although you retain all other class abilities.

Ancestral Relic: You gain a single masterwork weapon made out of any material of your choice (usually adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver, but any special material approved by your DM is allowable). This can be a family heirloom, a gift from your Lord, or a similarly important weapon. You also gain the Ancestral Relic feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) as a bonus feat, which applies only to this weapon. (This allows you to sacrifice money or valuable items to imbue your ancestral relic with magical properties worth the same cost on a 1 for 1 basis, rather then having to sell items for 50% of their base cost, then having to pay someone to upgrade your relic for you).

Kiai Smite: Once per day, you may declare an attack a Kiai Smite. You gain your Cha bonus to hit on your next attack roll. You gain additional use of this ability at every four levels.

Bonus feat: At 3rd level you gain one of the following feats as a bonus feat: Diehard, Quickdraw, Two Weapon Fighting, or Weapon Specialization. You need not meet the requirements of the feat in order to take it as a Samurai bonus feat.

Awe Inspiring: You gain a bonus to all Intimidate checks equal to one half your Samurai level, rounded down.

Iaijutsu Focus: If you successfully hit an enemy on your first attack roll of an encounter against an enemy who is flat footed and denied their Dexterity bonus, you may roll an Intimidate check as a free action. If you do so, your opponent must also make an Intimidate check as a free action. Subtract your enemy’s result from your result, and add it as a bonus to your damage on all attacks for this round against that enemy (or subtract it as a penalty, if your result is negative). This is a mind affecting fear effect.

Mettle: You gain the Mettle ability. Works just like Evasion, but for Fort and Will Saves.

Staredown: Once per encounter you may use the Intimidate Skill to Demoralize a foe as a Swift action. This is a mind affecting fear effect.

Bonus feat: At 9th level, you gain an additional bonus feat, based on the bonus feat you took at 3rd level.

Diehard: Improved Toughness
Quickdraw: Improved Initiative
Two Weapon Fighting: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Specialization: Greater Weapon Specialization

Improved Iaijutsu Focus: You may not use your Iaijutsu Focus ability against anyone who is flat footed, regardless of whether or not they are denied their Dex bonus.

Improved Staredown: When you use Staredown, you may effect all enemies within 30 feet, instead of just a single enemy.

Bonus feat: At 13th level, you gain an additional bonus feat, based on the bonus feat you took at 9th level.

Improved Toughness: Improved Toughness (bonus hit points stack)
Improved Initiative: Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Specialization: Weapon Mastery (PHBII) of the appropriate type.

Improved Mettle: Just like Improved Evasion, but for your Fort and Will Saves

Mass Staredown: When you use Staredown, you effect all enemies that are engaged in combat with you.

Greater Iaijutsu Focus: If you act in the Surprise round, you may take a Full Round action instead of the normal Standard Action. In addition, if you succeed in your opposed Intimidate check, your bonus to damage applies to all enemies for that round, not just your initial target.

Samurai Lord: You gain the Leadership feat as a bonus feat. If you already have the Leadership feat, your Charisma is counted as four points higher to determine your followers and cohort. In addition, you gain a special ability, based on the bonus feat you selected at 13th level.

Improved Toughness: DR 10/material of your ancestral weapon
Karmic Strike: Permanently under the effect of Haste spell.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting: Penalties for TWF are reduced to 0, and you gain the Pounce ability.
Greater Weapon Specialization: Gain a permanent +5 morale bonus to hit with attacks using your ancestral weapon.

Frightful Presence: You may use your Staredown ability once per turn, instead of once per encounter. Enemies who successfully Save against a Staredown become immune to its effects for 24 hours.

[Starbuck_II]

To be fair to the Samurai:
It allows Twfing in heavy armor with no dex requirement.
If the other class features were decent: this might be a good idea. But than that can be said for anything.

Kiai Smite: good idea, but bad execution. Why not an always one ability adding 3 damage with his diasho weapons. Increases as he levels.
2nd level: +3 (average sneak attack 3.5, so worst but works on everyone)
5th: +6 (average sneak attack 10, worse but again works on all, no conditions to activate)
7th: +9
12th: +12.
17th: +15
After all: Twfing only is redeemable if have some sort of damage bonus.

Back to the Samurai in CW:
Quick Draw, but only for his 2 weapons...why the limit?

Mass Staredown: useful.

ITWFing: useful. No dex requirement

Improved Staredown: I'd flip this for Mass. It really should be move action first.

Gtwfing: useful. no Dex requirement.

Cap ability: Sucks. What were they thinking.?

[Chronos]

Improved Staredown: I'd flip this for Mass. It really should be move action first.Why? A move action is cheaper than a standard action. If you gave it as move action first, then gaining it as a standard action would offer no increased benefit at all.

[Starbuck_II]

Why? A move action is cheaper than a standard action. If you gave it as move action first, then gaining it as a standard action would offer no increased benefit at all.

No, I meant, move action, than move action affect all within 30 feet.

Example:
Improved: Move action intimidate
Mass: Move action, intimidatew affects all enemy within 30 feet.