Dragon Heist, can I get away with a very Suboptimal Build?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I want to play a Half-Orc strength-based low-dex Rogue. Using point buy I'd have a big ol'e AC of 10 and 10 hit points.

16 strength/ 8 dexterity/ 14 constitution/ 14 intelligence/ 14 wisdom/ 8 charisma

I'll be using a Rapier (strength) and an off hand club. A Cain sword and Cane sheath respectively.

I plan on going Inquisitive, that's why I've boosted the mental stats. I won't be the face obviously, but I'd like to be his second during negotiations/interactions. Using my keen insight to call out lies and such. My expertise will be Investigation and Insight.

I plan on having a back up Character baked into the Orcs backstory that's more optimized. If my Orc becomes a hindrance to the party I'll ask the DM to dramatically kill him off screen (or if I ignominiously die in an ecounter) and his Partner will take his place in the group.

Is this going to work? I'm going for Role play and exploration over combat, but I acknowledge that combat is still a pillar of the game.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, how much risking your life do you consider as still being "working" ?

Dragon Heist certainly isn't all combat, but do you plan to still go in melee?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Well I'm not going to sit on the sidelines if my party is in danger.

To clarify my question (sorry, I see now how vague it was), how brutal/dangerous/frequent is the combat in Dragon Heist?

Obviously a lot of this will be determined by how punishing the DM is, but do you think I can stay alive long enough to get through combat?

I know I could throw daggers, but that doesn't really fit the character. He's a former City Gaurd that had to retire after he fell during a dramatic roof top chase. He's now a private detective/ bounty hunter. I'm not sure how the module hooks players, but I hope I can have it be connected to a case I'm working. If I come into money I'll be using it to fix my bad leg.

My partner, a Forest Gnome of the same class/subclass, is out of town chasing another lead, but if he comes back to find me dead, he will finish what I started. If I don't die maybe the DM can use him as a NPC.

[OverLordOcelot]

This character is going to be a burden on the party in combat. Anytime you trash your Con and/or AC you end up with a character who just goes down a lot and soaks up healing/potions/actions from other players, and this character doesn't have a route to get non-pathetic AC as you've laid him out. If your DM is one that just throws softballs at you then you can play characters as badly built at you want, and Dragon heist isn't all that combat heavy, but if you're taking combat seriously enough to actually worry about it then this will be a problem. You could just take your first level as fighter, which is perfectly reasonable for a guard, then wear chain mail to neatly solve the AC problem without significantly changing the character concept.

[Unoriginal]

Well I'm not going to sit on the sidelines if my party is in danger.

To clarify my question (sorry, I see now how vague it was), how brutal/dangerous/frequent is the combat in Dragon Heist?

Obviously a lot of this will be determined by how punishing the DM is, but do you think I can stay alive long enough to get through combat?

I know I could throw daggers, but that doesn't really fit the character. He's a former City Gaurd that had to retire after he fell during a dramatic roof top chase. He's now a private detective/ bounty hunter. I'm not sure how the module hooks players, but I hope I can have it be connected to a case I'm working. If I come into money I'll be using it to fix my bad leg.

My partner, a Forest Gnome of the same class/subclass, is out of town chasing another lead, but if he comes back to find me dead, he will finish what I started. If I don't die maybe the DM can use him as a NPC.

How frequent the combats will be will depend on what your group does. I will however says that combat in Dragon Heist, when it happens, isn't easy for the most cases.


If you want to make a former guard, I *greatly* suggest starting as a Fighter. Not only it fits the profile of Waterdeep's Guard (or Watch) much more, that way you can go heavy armor and compensate for your injury.

You can go Rogue afterward.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Yeah, I was afraid of this. The 1 fighter/4 Rogue occurred to me, but I was hoping to avoid is so as not to put off my cool level 3 non combat abilities, and the loss of my expertise.

Do you think I could make it to level 2 alive? If I can make it there I can start rogue, then take a level in Barbarian. Wouldn't make my AC much better, but with Rage's resistance and a small bump in HP, I'd be able to take a few more hits. Plus, sneak attack stacks with rage damage as long as I'm using a finesse (strength) weapon. I'd be doing decent damage if I use my off-hand club too. Can't kill me if they are dead.

Away from PHB, what happens if you wear armor you are not proficient in again?

[Unoriginal]

Again, just to make sure, you're asking for how likely you're going to survive as you go into melee to fight, while dual-wielding?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I'm asking how many combat encounters are there generally between levels one and two, and how tough the combat is between the two levels.

The general idea for combat tactics are to fight beside the Tankiest member, use my bonus action Disengage to break off, then move back in on my turn and repeate. Rage will save me at least once a fight I'm sure (until it doesn't).

So my 3 level plan is:
1: Get lucky and try not to die until level 2.

2:dip barbarian. Rage at the beginning of an encounter and use the dodge action until I close with the enemy next to my Tank Buddy. Try not to die until level 3.

3:Rage at the beginning of an encounter, use the dodge action until I start my turn within 15ft of who ever Tank Friend is fighting. Move 15ft, attack, disengage move back 15ft behind BFT (Best Friend Tank). Repeat.

Except I just remembered you have to attack or be attacked to maintain rage. So I guess use it after I close and just Dodge in the meantime.

Is there anything else I can do to help? The Help action would be great, but I'd still be in danger. Anything else I can do in that vein?

[Sachabot]

Honestly, it depends on your party. You should be fine, but talk to your DM and make sure you can enjoy playing that at their table.

Edit: Maybe consider picking up a Str-based ranged weapon too, so you have options.

[MeeposFire]

I am sorry to say that unless you change your stats you cannot multiclass as you need a dex of 13 to multiclass into or out of the rogue class.

So the trick is can you survive until level 4 for moderately armored and then 8 for heavy armor?

[Teaguethebean]

through point buy you could have a 17 str and then bring it to 18 at lv 4 through moderately armored

[OverLordOcelot]

Oh yes, I forgot the stat problem. Yeah, this character is in very bad shape, because your dex is too low to multiclass. I don't usually tank the prime stat for a class so I tend to forget that. A character with AC10 and no real way to raise it is going to keep dropping all the time in combat. Dodge isn't going to help much; an enemy with a +4 to hit goes from a 75% chance to hit down to a 56% chance to hit, and an enemy with a +6 drops from 85% to 72%. You're still going to get hit a lot, and since you can't multiclass you're not going to get much better leveling up unless you spend several feats. This build is even more suboptimal than I thought at first since it can't multiclass at all.

[DerficusRex]

Sounds like a really neat concept, but yeah, I don't see a way to get decent AC without either dropping the str down or waiting until level 4 as Teaguethebean suggested and taking Moderately Armored.

Hmm. After applying half-orc racial bonuses to point buy, you could go STR 13, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 8. That would let you start rogue, then take a level of Knowledge domain cleric at level 2 to get medium armor/shield proficiency, two more int skills with expertise, and you'd be able to run Bless to free up concentration for any dedicated cleric in the group.

Resilient (Con) would bring con up to 14. Or you could leave con/str both at 12 and bump wis to 15, then take Observant for 16 wis, lipreading, and boosted passives. Command is a domain spell, and being able to bark short authoritative orders would certainly fit the former-guard investigator motif.

It doesn't quite fit your original aesthetic, but at least you'd still have a positive strength modifier.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I must declare this build dead. A "bad" character can be a fun challenge and interesting, but this guy seems hopeless.

Thanks for talking me down from the ledge guys.

[Nhorianscum]

I want to play a Half-Orc strength-based low-dex Rogue. Using point buy I'd have a big ol'e AC of 10 and 10 hit points.

16 strength/ 8 dexterity/ 14 constitution/ 14 intelligence/ 14 wisdom/ 8 charisma

I'll be using a Rapier (strength) and an off hand club. A Cain sword and Cane sheath respectively.

I plan on going Inquisitive, that's why I've boosted the mental stats. I won't be the face obviously, but I'd like to be his second during negotiations/interactions. Using my keen insight to call out lies and such. My expertise will be Investigation and Insight.

I plan on having a back up Character baked into the Orcs backstory that's more optimized. If my Orc becomes a hindrance to the party I'll ask the DM to dramatically kill him off screen (or if I ignominiously die in an ecounter) and his Partner will take his place in the group.

Is this going to work? I'm going for Role play and exploration over combat, but I acknowledge that combat is still a pillar of the game.

As a half orc you get Orcish endurance and that gives a LOT of survivability in this level range. With optimal play in combat (IE just hide and throw daggers from the back line or TWF + disengage) you'll do fine in waterdeep.

You'll take one more hit than an "optimal" rouge per exposed round but you'll live one more hit as well.

If it dies just break out the backup char and enjoy RPing the death.

[Unoriginal]

As a half orc you get Orcish endurance and that gives a LOT of survivability in this level range. With optimal play in combat (IE just hide and throw daggers from the back line or TWF + disengage) you'll do fine in waterdeep.

You'll take one more hit than an "optimal" rouge per exposed round but you'll live one more hit as well.

If it dies just break out the backup char and enjoy RPing the death.

If he avoids melee, he has a chance. But the half-orc's survival ability is once per long rest, so that's not going to help against something that happens every other round.

[Nhorianscum]

If he avoids melee, he has a chance. But the half-orc's survival ability is once per long rest, so that's not going to help against something that happens every other round.

True. Still. Worth noting.

[Keravath]

Dragon Heist has quite a number of social encounters in addition to a few combat encounters but every DM runs it differently. For example, we had an encounter with a mind flayer and his intellect devourer pet along with a low level caster. We were level 1. In our case, the mindflayer left the room leaving his minions to deal with us (which I think is what they are supposed to do). However, I've read other places where the DM actually had the mindflayer engage in the combat which is an almost guaranteed TPK. We still almost lost a character to the brain eating effects of the intellect devourer ... but it wasn't too bad.

However, isn't the issue with the character really longer term?

The high strength and low dex pretty much limits the character to melee combat or limited range thrown weapons, all with the finesse property if they want to use sneak attack. However, with a dex of 8 they will never be able to multi-class out of rogue. Their AC in studded leather will be 11.

If they take moderately armored as a feat at level 4 it will go up to 13 in scale or a breastplate and a maximum of 14 in half-plate though they could also then use a shield for a maximum of 16. They could also then take heavy armor proficiency at level 8 to further boost their AC to a maximum of 18 in full plate and 20 with a shield.

Anyway, the character would probably survive level 1 depending on the DM and the rest of the party but the character will be a bit challenging to play.

--

Since the character was a city guard previously, the easiest way to get the abilities you might want would be to redo stats to have at least 13 dex and multiclass fighter at level 1 representing the characters previous career in the guard.

You could go with stats like 16/13/14/11/14/8 wear heavy armor and shield, wield a rapier and take rogue at level 2 for expertise and the other rogue abilities. You lose +2 on int skills but you could take observant or keen mind to make int 12 and support the character concept. You could also use an ASI to boost dex to 14 and int to 12.

16/13/12/13/14/8 loses one on int skills and 1hjp/level or 16/14/12/11/14/8 loses +2 on int skills, loses +1 hp/level but is better on dex skills, saves and ranged attacks.

[Skadi]

I must declare this build dead. A "bad" character can be a fun challenge and interesting, but this guy seems hopeless.

Thanks for talking me down from the ledge guys.

Aww that makes me sad :(

Half Orc gumshoe sounds like a cool character concept even if the stats aren't aligning to give you an optimal build, personally I would suggest sticking with the character concept but maybe re-thinking the class or stat rolls, either bump up the dexterity at the expense of strength or try a different class combo, does the character really need to be a rogue: inquisitive archetype to do the things you want them to do?


On a side note I just looked up the Inquisitive subclass and is it just me or is the subclass kind of crap? Most of their abilities seem to revolve around either giving them advantage to skill checks in areas where they probably don't need it and allowing them to use investigation skills that they would normally use out of combat in combat as a bonus action? I mean there is one talent in there that allows them to roll no less than 8 on insight checks when seeing if somebody is lying, but isn't that kind of trumped by the "reliable skill" talent that all rogues get at level 11 that allows a rogue to roll no less than 10 on and skill they have expertise in (insight being one of the skills OP plans to have expertise in)? Seems to me like there are other ways to get the gumshoe flavor without necessarily tying yourself to this particular subclass, unless of course this subclass has some sort of strength I am not seeing?

[Contrast]

I'll be using a Rapier (strength) and an off hand club. A Cain sword and Cane sheath respectively.

Just to pile on, to two weapon fight you need both hands to be using light weapons and a rapier is not a light weapon. A short sword would work fine but you wouldn't be able to sneak attack with the club still.

The build really needs an understanding DM to make a few (relatively minor) tweaks to work as written. Otherwise you can definitely make a similar character that does work but you'll need to compromise on a few things, the most substantial of which is needing to put a 13 in dex.

I do note that Prodigy is available for Half-Orcs so you could always just build him as some other class but you'd have to wait for being really good at a skill until level 4.

[Friv]

Half Orc gumshoe sounds like a cool character concept even if the stats aren't aligning to give you an optimal build, personally I would suggest sticking with the character concept but maybe re-thinking the class or stat rolls, either bump up the dexterity at the expense of strength or try a different class combo, does the character really need to be a rogue: inquisitive archetype to do the things you want them to do?

To be fair, being a half-orc gumshoe isn't really the problem. The problem is playing a rogue who's dumped Dexterity and Charisma, the two traditionally highest rogue stats.

As you pointed out, the easiest fix is to change the stat rolls. You're not primarily a fighter-rogue; you can get away with slightly lower stats by saying that your injuries have you not as fit as you used to be. If you use point-buy to assign Str 13, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12, after modifiers your stats are:

Str 15 (+2), Dex 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Int 12 (+1), Wis 14 (+2), Char 12 (+1).

That gives you a more functional AC, still enough Con to survive a hit or two, and a Strength that isn't perfect, but can be buffed at Level 4 by taking Medium Armor Proficiency (after which you can buff your Wisdom.) It also gives you enough mental and social stats to do the detective thing.

You'll be a jack of all trades and master of none, mind you, but that's not a huge problem in a larger party, and rogue expertise goes a long way to turning a jack of all trades into a skill monkey, especially with inquisitive.

[Unoriginal]

Or you could be really good at the skills you want via Expertise without having a 14 in both WIS and INT.

+5 at level 1 is already very good, and you can get that with 12 in the stat.

[OverLordOcelot]

Half Orc gumshoe sounds like a cool character concept even if the stats aren't aligning to give you an optimal build, personally I would suggest sticking with the character concept but maybe re-thinking the class or stat rolls, either bump up the dexterity at the expense of strength or try a different class combo, does the character really need to be a rogue: inquisitive archetype to do the things you want them to do?

There's nothing wrong with the concept, it's just the execution of an 8 dex, light armor melee combatant that's bad. Bump the dex up to allow multiclassing, and you have the same idea of a character but he can multiclass to get medium or heavy armor and then will work fine. If you're really wedded to low dex, you could build a similar character using bard levels to get the expertise on investigation and insight, and reflavor the 'song' stuff to be him telling stories or giving 'rookies' advice.

You also don't need significant INT and WIS, like other people have pointed out the bonuses from those stats drop way behind expertise mechanically, and story wise he can just be really good at spotting lies but not that great at 'wisdom stuff' in general. I have a moon druid with expertise in grappling that's intended to help in forms, but her +9 actually stands a decent chance of holding someone in place with her 8 strength even when she's not shifted.

[Unoriginal]

and reflavor the 'song' stuff to be him telling stories or giving 'rookies' advice.

Or having info on their opponents.

"Hit the liver, he's an hard drinker!"

[MeeposFire]

Personally I am kind of sad you are not going for it.

I think that it could be a fun challenge to see if you could make it all the way to level 8 when you could have heavy armor and surprise people with your new tankiness.


Outside of that I agree with the others that say you could make minor adjustments to your ability scores and have a fully functional character. Consider that using normal point buy rules the highest mod for dex you can get is +3 for a 17. Just by slightly rearranging your ability scores you can get a +2 which is the standard for any point buy non-dex bonus race. You could also opt for a 13 which yes is only a +1 but it is also only 1 less than the normal max for a point buy non-dex boost race and only two less than the standard max. Now that +1-2 does make a difference so you would want to play it safe but it opens you to not just multiclassing but to also if you pick up moderately armored at level 4 you get access to shields and medium armor which gives you an immediate big boost and your now at minimum +2 bonus from dex becomes all you will ever need. You can still play with a str based rogue and all you have to do is get to level 2 if you are ok with multiclassing or level 4 for the feat. After that you should be fine.

Before that play a bit paranoid. I think it can be done just carry a lot of throwing weapons and stay back a bit.