Playing in a Gestalt game, build suggestions welcome.

[Lorddenorstrus]

The party consists of a Warblade/something, he's the fighter basically. A Dreadnecro/Cleric > Boneknight focused on necromancy IT has DMM and can do 24h buffs, the DM doesn't want 48H buffs, the 4th guy hasn't decided what to make yet. I was looking for a Bardish something, to help the Necromancers minions, and figured we probably need a Rogue just for traps. So between Bard and Rogue, does anyone have any suggestions?

I've looked at possibly using Sorc, into Prestige Bard just to get the bard music but better spells. But overall I'm unsure how to proceed with the concept or if perhaps a better concept could be achieved. #Note Starting at lvl 5. 1 PrC per side.

(I'm the one who made the Cleric/Necro the other guy doesn't have an account and wants suggestions.)

[MisterKaws]

You need the Requiem feat just to be able to affect Undead with Bardic Music, and it has a minimum level of 6 to pick.

[Lorddenorstrus]

You need the Requiem feat just to be able to affect Undead with Bardic Music, and it has a minimum level of 6 to pick.

I've used Palemaster or some level of leadership before to build a companion bard for necromancers before, I know. We won't have that immediately but it's still good when it's hit. The problem is the design he's asking for is outside of my personal experience. I wasn't sure how to help my fellow player be equally effective as well, a fleshed out necromancer and Warblade. I've never used a bard in gestalt, and at most I can think of wonky martial builds to make rogue pump damage grabbing Iaijutsu or crap. But the specific niche combination he's asking for isn't something I've done before.

[Oberron]

While it isn't a bard or rogue an artifice can easily act like a bard in terms of buffs to help the necromancer's minions, magic weapon to save on gold spent to equip the undead, same for magic vestments, bull's strength etc. And there is a feat that gives the bonus from enchantment spells a +2 so while bull's strong gives +6, if you can either make enlarge undead with dm's permission you have another +4str from size bonus, magic weapon becomes +3, and there is another feat that gives another +2 to the bonus when an undead would benifit from the spell making, +8str from bull's str, +6 str size bonus from enlarge undead.

I'll have to dig through my computer when I get home to find the names of those feats

Edit: [Fell energy spell] is from Dragon compendium that increases anything described as a bonus by +2 for undead with only a +1 spell slot, easily taken care of by MM tricks.

The other feat is [ability enhancer] also from dragon compendium that gives any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does. And isn't even a MM feat.

So any transmutation spell that buffs a stat score + fell energy spell is a +4 bonus on top of the normal spell for only +1 to spell slot.

Another useful thing for FES is magic vestment (+3 enhancement to ac/4 CL), Resistance Item (+3 to all saves /4 CL), Shield of faith (+4 deflection to AC with +3/6 CL), to name a few.

[AnimeTheCat]

Well, you could mix something like beguiler and wizard into something necromantic, then prestige bard out of beguiler and focused specialist necromancy wizard into the (I think it's called this) master specialist wizard prestige class. Illusion and enchantment can be banned schools for specialist, then evocation probably for your third (or whatever you please). You can use your necromancy spells probably more effectively than bardic music earlier on, then you can use both in the long-term.

[Cosi]

If the party wants a Bard, the Warblade is probably the best suited to provide that specifically. Bardblade works as one side of a gestalt, and Warblade//Bard is also defensible. However, as noted, Bard is not ideal for buffing undead. You're probably better off with some War Weaver variant that buffs the party frontliners plus a couple elite undead. Artificer is viable in a build like that, but Artificers are generally more trouble than they're worth. Unless you expect the group to be willing to deal with you maintaining a spreadsheet to calibrate your item selection, you're better off just playing a caster. Wizard/War Weaver//Beguiler is pretty good, and gives you a Rogue-type.

Does "the other guy" refer to the Warblade, the guy playing the Cleric/Dread Necromancer, or some fourth player? In the first case, I think (as noted) Bard is workable there, but I generally think that the best Gestalt Warblade build is Warblade//Factotum. Factotum is often recommended with casters, but they honestly don't get that much out of it. It's already fairly easy to run out more action economy than your slots support, and the Factotum's spellcasting is a joke if you have actual slots. But a Warblade can nova every fight, and they really appreciate the utility. The Cleric/Dread Necromancer seems pretty solid. For a fourth build, there are a lot of options. In general, the best builds are Caster//Caster, but if you don't want to do that, you basically want full casting + good chassis. People talk about "active/passive", but the reality is that casters are better at passive than the nominally passive classes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go with a Beguiler//Archivist in this case. Your Dread Necro won't get access to the utility an arcane spellcaster normally brings, going Beguiler gets most of that and Archivist can round it out via domain spells, druid spells, even divine bard and adept spells. Beguiler gets all the Rogue class skills with trapfinding along with all the Wizard class skills, and you'll have plenty of skill points/level with two Int-based spellcasting classes. Beguiler spellcasting is like Bard spellcasting 2.0, and you can wear light armor (mithral breastplate) without worrying about spell failure.

Plan to go Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14// Archivist 11/ any PrCs that fully advance Archivist 9. A decent choice for those last nine levels is Hexer from Masters of the Wild, it's easy to convert to 3.5, but that basically prevents you from playing any PHB races. Maybe go Air Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir) or Jungle Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#jungleGoblins), with a Hat of Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hatofDisguise). You may want to dip something to get turn undead to use DMM: Persist with non-Cleric spells an Archivist can learn, but it's not necessary and Mindbender excludes using Sacred Exorcist.

Be sure to get Versatile Spellcaster at 1st, and Mindsight at 6. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, this should include any Archivist spells you've learned, and it gives you early access to the next higher level of Beguiler spells. That with the Mindbender dip enables your Advanced Learning spells to be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th. I'd get Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility.

Consider taking a reserve feat such as Fiery Burst so you have something to do besides hemorrhaging spells every round.

[Maat Mons]

Sorry, you said there will be four party members, but I only noticed classes for two characters, and a request for help on one character. Does that leave one unknown/undecided who we're not making suggestions for?



If you want a Rogue in the party, and the Warblade is undecided about what to take on the other side, you could always try to sell him on the Rogue variant that gets Fighter feats. If he's looking to play "the Fighter," he may not want spells. Feat Rogue gives him some Fighter feats, which could help out with his "the Fighter" shtick. And it has less overlap with Warblade than levels in Fighter.

Though, honestly, if I were going to do "something Fighterish" // "something Roguish," it would probably be more like Warbalde//Beguiler. But like I said, if he wants to be "the Fighter," he may not actually want casting.



For the guy you're actually looking for suggestions for, did he say he's interested in Bard? Or is that just one of the options you're looking to present to him? I ask, because if he's set on Bard, I'll stick to that, but if it's just supposed to be one of the suggestions he'll be getting, I'll try to come up with more varied ideas.

[Bphill561]

If you are interested in bard and better casting I think I would build a Sublime Chord.

Bard 20//10x/ Sublime Chord 10

Multiclass all you want with base classes for the first 10 levels. Maybe something like Fighter 2/Duskblade 2/Marshal 1/Factotum 1/Paladin 2/Spelldancer 2

You said 1 prestige class per side, I don't know if that means total or just that both sides are allowed to prestige class at the same time. This has 2 on one side, so might be close enough.

1) With partial BAB, this will get you to 4 attacks.
2) Caster level off of sublime chord will be 30 by level 20 (although this may not be in the spirit of gestalt)
3) Paladin of Freedom for Charisma to saves
4) Marshal aura for Charisma to whatever
5) Fighter bonus feats and duskblade grant Dodge, Mobility, and Combat casting for Spelldancer pre-req's. There is a fighter variant in Dragon mag #310, the pugilist, that can also pick up endurance and unarmed strike as additional feats.
6) Spelldancer will let you dance up 24 hour buffs, especially if you make yourself immune to fatigue
7) Factotum Trapfinding plus the Able Learner feat at level 1 will let you have every skill and fill the rogue trapfinding that you want
8) Being human lets Bard be your effective favored class, so with all other base classes 2nd level and under no mutliclass penalties

Level 1 Able Learner, Level 1 Human bonus Extend Spell, Level 3 Endurance if needed, Level 6 Persistent spell with the rest of your feat open.

Alternatively if you can take 2 PrC's at once something with Dweomerkeeper 10/Incantrix 10 would be just wrong.

For your Cleric friend, I might be tempted to steer towards Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/ 5 X//Dread Necro 20. Obviously go with a neutral alignment for both Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead. If dragonlance feats are available, the Dynamic Priest feat changes casting stat requirement and bonus spells to Charisma. The DC's for the cleric would still be off of Wisdom, but he can always buff from that class and fling spells from the Dread Necro side. Then he can focus more on Charisma.

[skunk3]

Personally I'm a huge fan of Warlocks in almost any build.

Bard/Sublime Chord on one side and Warlock on the other? Both key off of CHA for spells/SLA's so there is definitely synergy, and the at-will nature of Warlock abilities lets you conserve a lot of spells. You can also take the least invocation Beguiling Influence for a bump to CHA-based checks.

[Maat Mons]

Miscellaneous ideas:

Cleric (yes, another one)//Paladin 2 (+Serenity feat)/whatever
Druid//something/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper
Duskblade//Wizard/Runesmith
Psion//Warblade (/Eternal Blade?)

[ArtAndor]

If you want to help out your necromancer friend...


Bard 20//Marshal 20
Marshal and bard have interesting synergy as Marshal provides passive auras and its minor auras depend on your CHA score.
Pick Dragontouched feat (Dragon Magic) so you can get dragon auras (double auras at level 12!). Being dragonblooded scales your dragon auras with your level (+4 bonus at 20 iirc).

Now you are a bard with three auras that stack with just about everything and inspiration. The skellies will surely have some fun!

[Lorddenorstrus]

To clerify, since there seems to have been confusion.
Player 1 Cleric into Boneknight/ Dreadnecro
Player 2 Warblade/Unknown
Player 3 the one we're talking about who was looking at rogue ish build.
Player 4 As of yesterday..apparently decided to make a fighter something.

We don't exactly have the most balanced party.. also.. we're all freaking melee pretty much.

We ended out ditching the bard and instead realized we needed arcane utility. So the build was Human Paragon/Wizard then Rogue/Human paragon 2nd/3rd. Rogue / Master specialist 4th / 5th. He's a rogue wizard. Huzzah to him. Gonna hit up Unseen seer 6th lvl. Dunno past that one *shrug*

I'm gonna see if I can just get ahold of some type of Leadership just to build a Bard/Marshal cohort though probably. Would be quite nice to carry around an aura stick.