strongest evil?

[gogogome]

Which is the strongest evil? We got undead, fiends, far realm stuff, quori, evil gods and their worshippers, etc. Can't help but think which of these are delusional small fish way over their heads and which are these are the true inevitable doom.

Age of Worms got me thinking when i saw this pit fiend helped release the worm god into the mortal realm to earn favor with asmodeus which means Kyuss, god of worms, is small fish compared to asmodeus.

[BlueWitch]

Statistically it's Demon's isn't it? By sheer numbers alone the Abyss is an Infinite Plane.

For every 1 Solar Angel, there's like, 1000 Balor's.

I think the ratio is the same for Devil's. Demon's just outnumber everything too hard.

I hear Daemon's are powerful too but I haven't read up on them as much.

[Nousos]

Pretty sure its Demons. Like bluewitch said, the Abyss is infinite. If I recall the plane itself is partially sentient and pumps out demons endlessly, and they would have easily won the bloodwar and moved on to eating the universe if anything but a minority actually cared about it. (citation needed)

It does seem pretty much hinted though, that the far realm contains an unknown amount of diety level beings, cast out from our universe or just the remains of previous ones. While its left mysterious for mystery sake, connotation seems to be that if the stuff there ever FULLY woke up and got into the material realm, EVERYTHING would end.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Abyss may be infinite, but they fight each other more often than anything else.

The only accurate answer is going to be whichever one the DM wants it to be.

[Particle_Man]

In many settings there is an evil god that wants to destroy the multiverse and is so dangerous that other gods including other evil gods have to team up to lock it away. So maybe that guy? Rovagug in Pathfinder, Tharizdun in Greyhawk, etc.?

I am speaking of individual strength rather than demonic strength in numbers. Since as noted the demons also fight each other a lot that is less of a problem.

[gogogome]

The only accurate answer is going to be whichever one the DM wants it to be.

I'm planning a campaign where there's as many evil factions as i can cram into it and they're all fighting each other as the pcs get caught in the crossfire. This thread will give me an idea as to who will win in the end and the final boss the PC has to fight.

[MisterKaws]

If I recall correctly, the strongest statted evil creature is a green-ish dragon-thing from somewhere. Don't remember where. Somebody help.

Non-statted, I think it would be unsealed Pandorym. His body is a giant Sphere of Anihillation, and just a shard of his mind is a 20+ Psion with a crap-load of passive save-or-lose emanation effects, so his full mind would likely be a 40+ Psion with epic manifesting.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm planning a campaign where there's as many evil factions as i can cram into it and they're all fighting each other as the pcs get caught in the crossfire. This thread will give me an idea as to who will win in the end and the final boss the PC has to fight.

Whichever one will make the best story.

Among other things, it's not necessarily the most powerful party that wins a fight, especially when there's multiple participants. If A, B, and C are busy fighting it out, and D stays out of it until those three have mostly killed each other... the "victor" from the ABC fight is still badly wounded, and ill-prepared to take on the fully rested D, even if D wouldn't normally be stronger than anyone in the ABC group.

[Crake]

For every 1 Solar Angel, there's like, 1000 Balor's.

That's not how infinities work. If there's an infinite number of solars, and an infinite number of balors, then it will be 1:1, unless the balor infinity is larger (yes, you can have larger infinities than others, like the set of all real numbers vs the set of all integers) in which case the ratio would be 1:infinity, which would also be the case if there were infinite balors and finite solars.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Non-statted, I think it would be unsealed Pandorym. His body is a giant Sphere of Anihillation, and just a shard of his mind is a 20+ Psion with a crap-load of passive save-or-lose emanation effects, so his full mind would likely be a 40+ Psion with epic manifesting.

A shard is CR 25, 50 HD, huge size, and its very presence passively dominates all living things. I'd say if freed, it would be the size of a massive stormcloud of power that could engulf an entire nation. Elder Evils has some strong endgame challenges, but I'd say that one is the most likely to bring an end to a game setting, because it's too powerful to assign stats to it.

[Telonius]

Real-world time constraints.

[Biggus]

Some of the highest statted creatures include:

Lascer from Dragon #297, who's CR58 currently and will be more powerful than the gods if he ever manages to regain his full original form. His stats are 3.0 though.

Prismatic Dragons from the ELH/SRD are listed as usually neutral, so presumably there are some evil ones. They're CR66 at great wyrm stage, and can be advanced indefinitely past that.

The Time Dragon from Dragon #359 is the strongest statted creature in 3.5 as far as I know, at Great Wyrm stage it's CR100 (listed as CR90 but if you look at the table this is clearly a mistake) and like the Prismatic Dragons can be advanced beyond that infinitely using the rules in the ELH/SRD (for comparison, Corellon Larethian is probably about CR94). They're listed as always neutral, but the MM p.305 says that even creatures with an "always" alignment may occasionally change it, so an evil one is possible.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If we're just looking for the highest CR, the Sphinx from an issue of Dungeon iirc, is at least CR 100. Every time it hits with an attack, the target has to make something like a DC 200 strength check or immediately fall unconscious at 0 hp due to suffocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#suffocation). But neither the Sphinx nor a Time Dragon commands other creatures or threatens all of civilization. Granted they likely could but there are better antagonists to be found.

[Biggus]

Granted they likely could but there are better antagonists to be found.

I dunno, I think the idea of a Time Dragon going mad and travelling back to the beginning of time to destroy the universe before it starts is a pretty interesting hook...

[Helluin]

I wonder where Last Word-wielding Orcus, Queen of Chaos, Asmodeus, Rovagug, PF-Azathoth, the Elder Evil worshipped by Aboleths, and possibly Far Realm near-deities are placed on the sliding scale of Evul. I imagine PF-Azothoth is probably just on the same scale as Rovagug, Asmodeus, LW-Orcus, Queen of Chaos, and then “lesser” Elder Evil... Greater Far Realm brings likely fall somewhere around Azothoth, with Major Elder Evil like Pandorym above all others?

[Bad Wolf]

I wonder where Last Word-wielding Orcus, Queen of Chaos, Asmodeus, Rovagug, PF-Azathoth, the Elder Evil worshipped by Aboleths, and possibly Far Realm near-deities are placed on the sliding scale of Evul. I imagine PF-Azothoth is probably just on the same scale as Rovagug, Asmodeus, LW-Orcus, Queen of Chaos, and then “lesser” Elder Evil... Greater Far Realm brings likely fall somewhere around Azothoth, with Major Elder Evil like Pandorym above all others?


Tenebrous/Orcus was focused mainly on getting his wand, though he did kill one or two gods and the Queen of Chaos hasn't done much since the War of Law and Chaos, IIRC.

Asmodeus is definitely someone to watch out for. The rest I'm not so sure of, though the fact that the Aboleth-Elder Evils and Far Realm gods dont have a history of meddling with the Multiverse takes them down a few notches.

[Helluin]

Tenebrous/Orcus was focused mainly on getting his wand, though he did kill one or two gods and the Queen of Chaos hasn't done much since the War of Law and Chaos, IIRC.

Asmodeus is definitely someone to watch out for. The rest I'm not so sure of, though the fact that the Aboleth-Elder Evils and Far Realm gods dont have a history of meddling with the Multiverse takes them down a few notches.

I actually don’t know much about the history of Tenebrous beyond the God-slaying, so thanks for the extra info.

Queen of Chaos might be dormant, but I was trying to envison their personal influences, raw might at the height of their power, and potential degree of disasters they can wrought, meaning that Queen of Chaos gets her powers at her prime and the support of her champion (Miska the Wolf-spider), Azothoth has the Great Old Ones and possibly other outer gods, Asmodeus has the entire infernal hierarchy, and Rovagug gets no one except for his spawns :smalltongue: I have no idea how this would turn out as I lack the comprehensive setting knowledge to form a convincing argument about their Evil Score, but I’d sure love to hear what others think about these players.

[noob]

actually the strongest evil is devils.
The explanation is simple: all outsiders are present in infinite numbers but devils are better at logistics than other evil outsiders so the devils will know better how to move their group to have a denser infinity and would know how to place 100 pit fiends next to each demon due to better hierarchy and logistics.
Yes infinities breaks a lot of things and in fact demons are equally numerous as devils(and fluffed to be more numerous) but logically should be overwhelmed because they do not have an as good hierarchy and so are not able to manage infinite logistics as fast.
Unless there is a continuous infinity of demons as if demons were a fluid in which case it change the deal with demons.
Sadly there is no rules for continuous fluid demons.

[magic9mushroom]

It does seem pretty much hinted though, that the far realm contains an unknown amount of diety level beings, cast out from our universe or just the remains of previous ones. While its left mysterious for mystery sake, connotation seems to be that if the stuff there ever FULLY woke up and got into the material realm, EVERYTHING would end.

I wouldn't say they're necessarily cast out or remnants, but the only actual reference to fighting the multi-layer Far Realm denizens is this hilarious snippet from Manual of the Planes:


Combat:Other than the sporadic elemental and energy
traits and the maddening nature of the plane, combat is
normal in the Far Realm. Against the entities that rule this
plane, combat is also vanishingly brief.


That's not how infinities work. If there's an infinite number of solars, and an infinite number of balors, then it will be 1:1, unless the balor infinity is larger (yes, you can have larger infinities than others, like the set of all real numbers vs the set of all integers) in which case the ratio would be 1:infinity, which would also be the case if there were infinite balors and finite solars.

While two infinities of the same size have a 1:1 correspondence, they also have a 1000:1 correspondence (and a 1:1000 correspondence, and a 2:1 correspondence, etc. etc.). :P

[Edreyn]

Lady of Pain. She alone manages to hold all others at bay, for an unlimited time.

[Eldariel]

Lady of Pain. She alone manages to hold all others at bay, for an unlimited time.

Though to be fair, she's absolutely not evil. More or less the definition of True Neutral (as the whole of Sigil).

[Edreyn]

Not sure about evil, but she is obviously VERY cruel. It's hard to get noticed by her, but poor berks that caught her interest will very quickly be sorry about it. Also, if she feel endangered, she is even ready to close all portals in the city, and all water and air come from them. I'd call this evil.

[Selion]

The DM, if the DM is not secretly evil you are playing this game wrong

[Crake]

While two infinities of the same size have a 1:1 correspondence, they also have a 1000:1 correspondence (and a 1:1000 correspondence, and a 2:1 correspondence, etc. etc.). :P

I mean... Yeah, you got me there :smalltongue:

[noob]

I wouldn't say they're necessarily cast out or remnants, but the only actual reference to fighting the multi-layer Far Realm denizens is this hilarious snippet from Manual of the Planes:





While two infinities of the same size have a 1:1 correspondence, they also have a 1000:1 correspondence (and a 1:1000 correspondence, and a 2:1 correspondence, etc. etc.). :P

Which means that the ones which organize better and faster and successfully dispatch 100000000 of their forces for each of the opponents will crush the other. (which is hard to do because infinite logistics are costly in calculation but there is ways to do infinite calculations and stuff like that)

[gogogome]

I'm not looking for strongest creature, i'm looking for strongest evil.

Demons and Devils are not infinite. They are finite. If an Efreeti Simulacrum uses Wish to create 75,000gp of swords everyday, are there an infinite amount of swords? No. There are 75,000gp of swords on the first day, 150,000gp on the 2nd day, 225,000gp of swords on the third day, etc. Even if this flow of swords are never ending there is always a finite number of swords at any time.

Devils repopulate solely through depleted lawful evil souls. Demons repopulate solely through the Abyss. Because the Demons' rate of spawn is significantly greater they outnumber the devils quite a bit because not only are the demons fighting the blood war, they're also fighting each other like Orcus sending a never ending army of undead against grazz't.

I am guessing Asmodeus is the strongest evil. It seems even with evil gods, mindflayer stuff, and endless demonic hordes, Asmodeus will win considering in future editions he becomes a god.

[zlefin]

I'm gonna go with ambitious mortals; that's more interesting for a strongest evil I think.

[Particle_Man]

If Asmodeous becomes a god doesn’t that mean that the existing gods were already stronger?

[noob]

I'm not looking for strongest creature, i'm looking for strongest evil.

Demons and Devils are not infinite. They are finite. If an Efreeti Simulacrum uses Wish to create 75,000gp of swords everyday, are there an infinite amount of swords? No. There are 75,000gp of swords on the first day, 150,000gp on the 2nd day, 225,000gp of swords on the third day, etc. Even if this flow of swords are never ending there is always a finite number of swords at any time.

Devils repopulate solely through depleted lawful evil souls. Demons repopulate solely through the Abyss. Because the Demons' rate of spawn is significantly greater they outnumber the devils quite a bit because not only are the demons fighting the blood war, they're also fighting each other like Orcus sending a never ending army of undead against grazz't.

I am guessing Asmodeus is the strongest evil. It seems even with evil gods, mindflayer stuff, and endless demonic hordes, Asmodeus will win considering in future editions he becomes a god.
in the default setting demon and devils are infinite.
If you want to speak of a specific setting instead of the default setting then you have to specify and if you are speaking of a specific setting you created and of which you are the gm the answer is "the strongest evil is definitively the gm"
No matter what happens in the end everyone was controlled by the gm.

[Nousos]

There are literally infinite layers of the abyss.

[Bad Wolf]

in the default setting demon and devils are infinite.
If you want to speak of a specific setting instead of the default setting then you have to specify and if you are speaking of a specific setting you created and of which you are the gm the answer is "the strongest evil is definitively the gm"
No matter what happens in the end everyone was controlled by the gm.

Default setting, devils are definitely not infinite. There are two types of devils: those that fell from the upper planes, either with Asmodeus or later in the case of Baalzebul, or those transformed from evil souls.

Demons are infinite, though some are transformed from chaotic evil mortals. Orcus and Demogorgon are both examples of such, if you consider Dragon Magazine canon.

[Torpin]

in the default setting demon and devils are infinite.
If you want to speak of a specific setting instead of the default setting then you have to specify and if you are speaking of a specific setting you created and of which you are the gm the answer is "the strongest evil is definitively the gm"
No matter what happens in the end everyone was controlled by the gm.

where does it say that?

[Torpin]

to the original question the strongest evil is atropus
"Atropus, the World Born Dead, drifts through the gulfs of space, searching for worlds to consume and,when it finds them, erasing all life with its gruesome touch. As the afterbirth of creation, it is committed to unmaking all things. Nothing, not even the gods, can halt its relentless progress"

[Jack_Simth]

where does it say that?

The infinite demons / devils thing? DMG. "The Infinite Layers of the Abyss" starts on page 160 (and yes, that's the title), and the "Nine Hells of Batoor" starts on page 162 (each one is infinite in size). Both have random encounter tables, so you've got an infinite area that has a nonzero density of demons / devils. Math says an infinity of demons and devils must exist.

That all evil in the game is controlled by the DM? Well, all the NPC's are (also in the DMG, not going to bother with a page reference), and this means that all the named BBEG's are controlled by the DM.

[Torpin]

The infinite demons / devils thing? DMG. "The Infinite Layers of the Abyss" starts on page 160 (and yes, that's the title), and the "Nine Hells of Batoor" starts on page 162 (each one is infinite in size). Both have random encounter tables, so you've got an infinite area that has a nonzero density of demons / devils. Math says an infinity of demons and devils must exist.

That all evil in the game is controlled by the DM? Well, all the NPC's are (also in the DMG, not going to bother with a page reference), and this means that all the named BBEG's are controlled by the DM.

just because there are infinite layers doesnt mean it has infinite size due to the fact it never states any layer is unbounded, and its possible to have a set with an infinite amount of elements whose summation is finite
consider lim n->infinity of the summation of 1/2+1/4+1/8...1/2^n. well that limit is 1. with an infinite amount of elements.
so math actually doesnt say that

as far as nine hells, well badwolf already showed why they arent infinite

[Jack_Simth]

just because there are infinite layers doesnt mean it has infinite size due to the fact it never states any layer is unbounded, and its possible to have a set with an infinite amount of elements whose summation is finite
consider lim n->infinity of the summation of 1/2+1/4+1/8...1/2^n. well that limit is 1. with an infinite amount of elements.
so math actually doesnt say that

Keep in mind, when a plane gets to the point where it's (1/2)^(arbitrarily large number here), it stops being a plane in any meaningful sense. Also, that'd require that the Abyss be predictable. That aside:

If you'd prefer, take a look at The Outlands, starting on page 166. "The Outlands is an infinitely large wheel ..." and further down: "Random Encounters: Alternate among all four random Outer Plane tables for random encounters in the Outlands." - which includes Abyssal and Hellish encounters. So you've got an infinite plane that has a greater than 0 density of demons and devils (also angels and stuff too, on the Heavenly and Beatific encounters table).


as far as nine hells, well badwolf already showed why they arent infiniteNot really. I'll reply to that one...


Default setting, devils are definitely not infinite. There are two types of devils: those that fell from the upper planes, either with Asmodeus or later in the case of Baalzebul, or those transformed from evil souls.

Problem: You're assuming that the default setting requires that material planes be finite in size and number. If you stop and look, you'll find notes about alternate material planes. Additional problem: There's other planes where you can find mortals, and those alternate planes can be infinite in size.

[Torpin]

according to the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

"Infinity is a hard concept to grasp; the Guide gives us this definition:

Bigger than the biggest thing ever and then some. Much bigger than that in fact, really amazingly immense, a totally stunning size, real 'wow, that's big', time. Infinity is just so big that by comparison, bigness itself looks really titchy. Gigantic multiplied by colossal multiplied by staggeringly huge is the sort of concept we're trying to get across here.
...
Population

None. Although you might see people from time to time, they are most likely products of your imagination. Simple mathematics tells us that the population of the Universe must be zero. Why? Well given that the volume of the universe is infinite there must be an infinite number of worlds. But not all of them are populated; therefore only a finite number are. Any finite number divided by infinity is as close to zero as makes no odds, therefore we can round the average population of the Universe to zero, and so the total population must be zero. "

[Jack_Simth]

according to the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

"Infinity is a hard concept to grasp; the Guide gives us this definition:

Bigger than the biggest thing ever and then some. Much bigger than that in fact, really amazingly immense, a totally stunning size, real 'wow, that's big', time. Infinity is just so big that by comparison, bigness itself looks really titchy. Gigantic multiplied by colossal multiplied by staggeringly huge is the sort of concept we're trying to get across here.
...
Population

None. Although you might see people from time to time, they are most likely products of your imagination. Simple mathematics tells us that the population of the Universe must be zero. Why? Well given that the volume of the universe is infinite there must be an infinite number of worlds. But not all of them are populated; therefore only a finite number are. Any finite number divided by infinity is as close to zero as makes no odds, therefore we can round the average population of the Universe to zero, and so the total population must be zero. "

This is bad math, and has false assumptions. Which is fine for a book.

[Torpin]

Keep in mind, when a plane gets to the point where it's (1/2)^(arbitrarily large number here), it stops being a plane in any meaningful sense. Also, that'd require that the Abyss be predictable. That aside:

If you'd prefer, take a look at The Outlands, starting on page 166. "The Outlands is an infinitely large wheel ..." and further down: "Random Encounters: Alternate among all four random Outer Plane tables for random encounters in the Outlands." - which includes Abyssal and Hellish encounters. So you've got an infinite plane that has a greater than 0 density of demons and devils (also angels and stuff too, on the Heavenly and Beatific encounters table).

alternate doesnt strictly mean you need to continue to use all 4 tables, it could be as few as two tables in a forever back and forth pattern

nowhere does it stat that how many layers are non arbitrarily small, we could possibly have only a large but bounded number of usable layers. and i wasnt saying the abyss was predictable, i was saying you arguement was flawed by proving a counter example

[Bad Wolf]

l
Problem: You're assuming that the default setting requires that material planes be finite in size and number. If you stop and look, you'll find notes about alternate material planes. Additional problem: There's other planes where you can find mortals, and those alternate planes can be infinite in size.

"A realist at heart, Bel knows that demonkind is infinite and at best he can hope to do no more than contain the tanar’ri." -quote from the Fiendish Codex II.

"The demons enjoy one major advantage in the Blood War: vastly superior numbers. Fortunately for the devils, demons are undisciplined fighters and almost absurdly poor strategists. Devils hold their own through superior tactics, unbending morale, and better equipment." -another quote.

The demons are noted as infinite, and the devils are said to have less than them.

[noob]

"A realist at heart, Bel knows that demonkind is infinite and at best he can hope to do no more than contain the tanar’ri." -quote from the Fiendish Codex II.

"The demons enjoy one major advantage in the Blood War: vastly superior numbers. Fortunately for the devils, demons are undisciplined fighters and almost absurdly poor strategists. Devils hold their own through superior tactics, unbending morale, and better equipment." -another quote.

The demons are noted as infinite, and the devils are said to have less than them.

By seeing the random encounter table and the fact the world of the devils is infinite we can conclude that either a finite amount of devils can patrol an infinite area or that there is an infinity of devils.
However there is the possible theory to reconcilable the varied elements of the manuals that demons are continuous (and not discrete) and thus the infinity of demons is huger than the one of devils.

[Jack_Simth]

alternate doesnt strictly mean you need to continue to use all 4 tables, it could be as few as two tables in a forever back and forth pattern
That's a rather extreme stretch. If that were the intent, there'd be no reason to include all four tables.

Or again, if you prefer, I can branch out slightly. The Manual of the Planes explicitly lists Limbo as Infinite (page 93), and tells it to alternate between Abyssal and Beatific encounter tables (page 96: just two tables this time, so the "doesnt strictly mean you need to continue to use all 4 tables" argument can't apply).

Or maybe Pandemonium, which is infinite (MotP page 97), and only uses the Abyssal encounters table (MotP page 99).


nowhere does it stat that how many layers are non arbitrarily small, we could possibly have only a large but bounded number of usable layers. and i wasnt saying the abyss was predictable, i was saying you arguement was flawed by proving a counter example
No, you're implying that the abyss must be predictable. The argument you're using presupposes a pattern. That they can be numbered in such a manner. Any such situation requires that they be enumerable in a strictly decreasing order, where the 'strictly decreasing' is further bounded by some sub-1 fraction (an infinite number of planes of potentially the same size would still result in infinite volume). While that's logically feasible, the Abyss is explicitly not a place of logic.


By seeing the random encounter table and the fact the world of the devils is infinite we can conclude that either a finite amount of devils can patrol an infinite area or that there is an infinity of devils.
And given that a finite resource attempting to patrol and infinite space is absurd, we can conclude that the first is false.


However there is the possible theory to reconcilable the varied elements of the manuals that demons are continuous (and not discrete) and thus the infinity of demons is huger than the one of devils.
Another possibility would be that the mathematician conclusion that all countable infinities are the same size is not true. After all: Until such time as we're actually dealing with infinities ourselves, it's an untested conclusion. There have been a rather lot of those that turned out to be false because of some minor rule that wasn't previously known - the actions in Hilbert's Hotel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel) to accommodate the new guests break down if no guest will move until after their new room is vacated, for instance.

[Bad Wolf]

By seeing the random encounter table and the fact the world of the devils is infinite we can conclude that either a finite amount of devils can patrol an infinite area or that there is an infinity of devils.
However there is the possible theory to reconcilable the varied elements of the manuals that demons are continuous (and not discrete) and thus the infinity of demons is huger than the one of devils.

"Infinite size. Each layer extends outward infinitely, but the circumfrence of each inner ledge (which opens onto the Pit and the next lower layer) is finite." -quote from the DMG.

"The blasted plain of Nessus floats in a swirling, crimson void. Its roughly ovoid, jagged-edged land mass extends for approximately 2,500 miles from east to west and about 1,100 miles from its northernmost to southernmost points." -quote from the Fiendish codex II.

So we can see here clearly that the void surrounding each layer is what's infinite, not the layers themselves. Also, there is a map on page 34 of the FCII that says how big each layer is.

[noob]

"Infinite size. Each layer extends outward infinitely, but the circumfrence of each inner ledge (which opens onto the Pit and the next lower layer) is finite." -quote from the DMG.

"The blasted plain of Nessus floats in a swirling, crimson void. Its roughly ovoid, jagged-edged land mass extends for approximately 2,500 miles from east to west and about 1,100 miles from its northernmost to southernmost points." -quote from the Fiendish codex II.

So we can see here clearly that the void surrounding each layer is what's infinite, not the layers themselves. Also, there is a map on page 34 of the FCII that says how big each layer is.

the random encounter table is never said to exclude spots of this plane so the devils are watching an infinite expense of void and ready to greet people anywhere within that infinite void.

[Segev]

"Infinite size. Each layer extends outward infinitely, but the circumfrence of each inner ledge (which opens onto the Pit and the next lower layer) is finite." -quote from the DMG.

"The blasted plain of Nessus floats in a swirling, crimson void. Its roughly ovoid, jagged-edged land mass extends for approximately 2,500 miles from east to west and about 1,100 miles from its northernmost to southernmost points." -quote from the Fiendish codex II.

So we can see here clearly that the void surrounding each layer is what's infinite, not the layers themselves. Also, there is a map on page 34 of the FCII that says how big each layer is.

To be fair, the void may have an infinite amount of (relatively) tiny islands in it, too.


But this is about "The strongest evil." To which I have to ask: what does that even mean? We've been arguing "the most numerous," and seen at least one "the most threatening" in the Pandorym. But are those "strength of evil?" What about Asmodeus, who, in some formulations of the setting, is a mastermind overgod who is playing everybody and everything according to his grand scheme? Is that "the strongest?"

Or does it mean "the most evil?" What is the purest, vilelest, most wicked villain in all of D&D? The Yugoloths are by definition the Fiends of Neutral Evil, untainted by Law or Chaos, but of them, which is the most evil? Or is there something more anathema to good yet?

[Bad Wolf]

the random encounter table is never said to exclude spots of this plane so the devils are watching an infinite expense of void and ready to greet people anywhere within that infinite void.

"Flying characters might be tempted to maneuver out across the boundaries of Baator’s layers and into the surrounding void. Such attempts tend to end badly. The void around the Nine HellsThe void around the Nine Hells is a gnawing vacuum that pulls apart any creature that ventures into it. The effect resembles a drawing and quartering. For every round spent in the void, a creature takes 1d10+6 points of damage. An extraplanar creature or outsider takes half damage on successful DC 30 Fortitude save, but a creature of any other type gets no save at all. Once seized by the void, an airborne creature loses maneuverability. Steering out of it requires a full-round action and a successful DC 25 Reflex save."

The void damages everything in it with no means of prevention, and you lose almost all control over your flight in there. Why would anyone be in there?

[Segev]

"Flying characters might be tempted to maneuver out across the boundaries of Baator’s layers and into the surrounding void. Such attempts tend to end badly. The void around the Nine HellsThe void around the Nine Hells is a gnawing vacuum that pulls apart any creature that ventures into it. The effect resembles a drawing and quartering. For every round spent in the void, a creature takes 1d10+6 points of damage. An extraplanar creature or outsider takes half damage on successful DC 30 Fortitude save, but a creature of any other type gets no save at all. Once seized by the void, an airborne creature loses maneuverability. Steering out of it requires a full-round action and a successful DC 25 Reflex save."

The void damages everything in it with no means of prevention, and you lose almost all control over your flight in there. Why would anyone be in there?

Somebody forgot what "extraplanar" means in the mechanics! This technically means that only non-Outsiders native to Baator fail to get saves, because "extraplanar" is an acquired tag that applies to anything not native to the plane it's on. Most standard PCs are [extraplanar] when on Baator.

[noob]

"Flying characters might be tempted to maneuver out across the boundaries of Baator’s layers and into the surrounding void. Such attempts tend to end badly. The void around the Nine HellsThe void around the Nine Hells is a gnawing vacuum that pulls apart any creature that ventures into it. The effect resembles a drawing and quartering. For every round spent in the void, a creature takes 1d10+6 points of damage. An extraplanar creature or outsider takes half damage on successful DC 30 Fortitude save, but a creature of any other type gets no save at all. Once seized by the void, an airborne creature loses maneuverability. Steering out of it requires a full-round action and a successful DC 25 Reflex save."

The void damages everything in it with no means of prevention, and you lose almost all control over your flight in there. Why would anyone be in there?

Just get 16 fast healing and then use repeated teleportation to move around in the void.
It is a 5 stars destination in most planar vacation guides.

[Ackapus]

Which is the strongest evil? We got undead, fiends, far realm stuff, quori, evil gods and their worshippers, etc. Can't help but think which of these are delusional small fish way over their heads and which are these are the true inevitable doom.


The way I look at it, it's all for a given value of evil and a given value of doom. Sounds like you're asking about universal settings, and you specified not most powerful creature, so campaign villains aren't necessarily what you're after.

I hold you can't get any worse than the Far Realms. By any definition, you've got a multiverse of infinite planes in the Great Wheel and the Far Realms are the orders of magnitude beyond every single one of those planes. Simply put, the Abyss has NOTHING on the Far Realms, except accessibility. But, are all the Things in the FR evil? It's stated that they are evil and also that they are the other side of the coin that has Good and Evil on the same side. So if you define evil as "I want to do things of an evil nature to you for the sake of evil/my own pleasure/to appease my god" then maybe some FR entities fit, but it seems a good many of them could be more defined as "I want to eat your sanity and consume your world because your gentle Euclidean geometry is anathema and you don't have nearly enough tentacles." They're not conquerors; they come to destroy all creation because to them, it shouldn't exist, and the ones that get excited to do so are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Not to say the Elder Evil type gods (like that of the aboleths and Tharizdun) don't make for great ultimate evil candidates, because they certainly do.

If you keep to the planes proper, it's Asmodeus. He's the only being that can grant clerics spells and powers regardless of believers, something not even the gods can do. He's kept the numerically inferior devils (according to cannon) not only on stable footing in the Blood War against demons and daemons, but he's had to sabotage his own lieutenants in order to keep them from winning outright. However, it's because he's got an endgame in mind; he's not a callous, careless destroyer, he is a dominator.

There's plenty of powerful evil factions that fit in the "engine of destruction" box, though- but the evil gods who do tend not to have the number of living believers that more peaceful gods do, so they tend to be not as powerful. Lovecraftian elder evil type gods don't have that believer restriction, but they tend to be imprisoned or abjured by various legendary means. The Abyss is full of wanton slaughter- and a couple gods of it, to boot- and it certainly doesn't get much more evil than that.

Between those options, really, it's almost a matter of taste.

[Bohandas]

Pretty sure its Demons. Like bluewitch said, the Abyss is infinite. If I recall the plane itself is partially sentient and pumps out demons endlessly, and they would have easily won the bloodwar and moved on to eating the universe if anything but a minority actually cared about it. (citation needed)

It does seem pretty much hinted though, that the far realm contains an unknown amount of diety level beings, cast out from our universe or just the remains of previous ones. While its left mysterious for mystery sake, connotation seems to be that if the stuff there ever FULLY woke up and got into the material realm, EVERYTHING would end.

I think the Far Realm is actually also implied to be even bigger than the abyss (and bigger indeed than the entire great wheel itself) But it also cares even less

[satorian]

The devils are the set of natural numbers, the demons the set of Reals.

[noob]

Any creature which got an infinity of str and which is evil (typical example is infinitely old cancer mages)?
A creature in the far realms that inflicts an infinity of pain to another creature in the far realms which did nothing to deserve that?

[Bad Wolf]

The devils are the set of natural numbers, the demons the set of Reals.

New idea:The study of Infernal Mathematics.

[Jack_Simth]

Just get 16 fast healing and then use repeated teleportation to move around in the void.
It is a 5 stars destination in most planar vacation guides.
If you're a Wizard 17 or better, you cast Shapechange, then change forms 1/round. When you change forms, you regain HP as though you had rested for a night. Which (as a Wizard 17 or better) is 17 or more HP. Alternating back & forth between, say, Trumpet and Hound archon forms also leaves you with the teleportation you desire as an at-will standard action. And, of course, when you want to rest up, there's a Magnificent Mansion just a standard action away (just make sure to prepare two or three, in case the dice hate you on the concentration check).

[magic9mushroom]

Couple of things caught my attention:

1) The "Infinite Layers of the Abyss" may not actually have infinite layers.


Conventional wisdom places the number of layers of the Abyss at 666, though there may be far more.

The Abyss goes on forever in the form of an infinite number of layers, although its well-known realms are bounded.
(Apparently the MotP can't make up its mind.)

Also, some of the layers are themselves infinite, such as the Grand Abyss.

2) Fiendish Codex II is terrible and flies directly in the face of established lore on several occasions (the Corruption/Obeisance scores in particular, which can arbitrarily send people to Hell when their alignment would decree they go somewhere else).

[Bad Wolf]

2) Fiendish Codex II is terrible and flies directly in the face of established lore on several occasions (the Corruption/Obeisance scores in particular, which can arbitrarily send people to Hell when their alignment would decree they go somewhere else).

They get evil/lawful points if they repeatedly do evil/lawful acts. Anyways, it says redemption is possible, there's just a process.

Also: "though there may be far more." That still leans to it being true more than false.

[Bohandas]

just because there are infinite layers doesnt mean it has infinite size due to the fact it never states any layer is unbounded,

Firstly, the Grand Abyss (layer 2) and Endless Maze (layer 600) are endless, secondly the abyss is not shaped like Torricelli's Trumpet