Finer points of multi-classing my WoS Monk

[spbtc]

I am playing a Way of Shadow monk in a campaign the DM has outlined to go to about level 15. Currently level 3. I am the teams secondary melee fighter (after the barbarian, who's probably going to leave barbarian soon to focus on cleric) and their primary skulker. I've decided for multiple reasons that I'm going to dip into rogue soon. I will certainly take L4 as a monk, pretty much solely for the ASI - my Dex and Wis are currently both 17, and getting those both to 18 ASAP is a no brainer.

Then my plan is to shift to rogue for three levels. First will get me Expertise with Stealth and Thieve's tools (and proficiency in Perception, or perhaps Investigate), second gets me Cunning Action (for the Hide bonus action, but also to get bonus Disengage and Dash w/o paying Ki). I will take 3rd to specialize in Arcane Trickster for various character reasons (familiar!), but also for the boost to sneak attack (which my DM will allow me to use Monk weapons for).

Then, I'm, a bit unsure. I really don't see any reason to take L4 rogue for any reason other than the ASI. There's nothing at L4 otherwise to tempt me, while moving back to L5 monk gets me my extra attack and my Stunning Strike. This is my primary conundrum about this plan. This seems like a fair exchange for an ASI, no?

It had also been suggested that I take L5 monk before dipping into rogue to get the extra attack and stun first, but then I'd feel like I would want to take L6 for Shadow Step, and, and, and . . . really, there's no pain-free time to step away from monk. Plus, I'm already fairly well equipped with extra attacks with the monk bonus unarmed and/or Flurry of Blows, so the extra attack isn't AS critical. And the way I've mapped out my build has something useful coming every level - I'm really not "wasting" any levels. Or does this seem totally cracked? I'm really not quite the skulker I want to be for my character, and feel like I want to get to rogue as quickly as I can.

[bid]

You are one level away from extra attack, shadow 5 should be your first goal. It's more critical than you think since your monk BA unarmed attack cannot apply SA, you really want 2 chances to land that extra damage.

AT 4 also gives you a 3rd spell slot, and AT 5 has uncanny dodge. You could still end up getting those levels later on. AT 6-7 are less interesting since you also get evasion at monk 7.

Allowing SA with non-finesse monk weapon adds a nice flavor.

[Talionis]

I’ll mirror getting extra attack is worth another level of Monk before multiclassing. I would also consider at any point picking up the first level of Rogue and going back to Monk. I get how getting Expertise and some skillls maybe super important to the party. But by all means get Monk 5 or 6 before getting Rogue 2.

[spbtc]

I'll admit, my question was more about the wisdom of abandoning rogue after L3 and passing up a second ASI in order to get back to monk levels. Admittedly, part of that plan is to get back to L5 monk as quickly as possible, which might be moot if I stick through L5 before multiclassing.

[Keravath]

My suggestion would be monk 5 before considering multiclassing. You mentioned dex and wis at 17 which will both be 18 after your level 4 ASI. This is good since it means you will only need two ASI more to max those stats.

Mobile is also a very good feat for a monk so you should see if it can be fitted in.

You didn’t mention your character race or other stats. Dark vision is essential for a shadow monk since the level 6 teleport ability doesn’t work if you can’t see.

Anyway, at this point I would take monk to 5 before multiclassing. Also, perception is a good skill for any character but especially those with high wisdom so it might be useful to take it as a starting skill on most characters.

[Man_Over_Game]

My suggestion would be monk 5 before considering multiclassing. You mentioned dex and wis at 17 which will both be 18 after your level 4 ASI. This is good since it means you will only need two ASI more to max those stats.

Mobile is also a very good feat for a monk so you should see if it can be fitted in.

You didn’t mention your character race or other stats. Dark vision is essential for a shadow monk since the level 6 teleport ability doesn’t work if you can’t see.

Anyway, at this point I would take monk to 5 before multiclassing. Also, perception is a good skill for any character but especially those with high wisdom so it might be useful to take it as a starting skill on most characters.

I agree with Kerevath. The extra attack will really help land those sneak attacks, since it effectively means you have x2 the number of possible attempts per turn than without Monk 5.

Honestly, I wouldn't even recommend putting that many levels into Rogue. Cunning Action is pretty redundant with your Monk features, unless you're planning on Hiding often. Officially, you can't do a melee attack while Hidden, so talk to your DM about how he runs stealth to determine how well it'll work for you. 1 level into Rogue will be plenty, and the other features of the Arcane Trickster can easily be replaced with Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster. Monk, in particular, is a class that should have as many levels as possible due to the powerful features and the Ki gain each level, and removing 2 levels of Rogue will go a long way into maintaining its high power level.

[spbtc]

My suggestion would be monk 5 before considering multiclassing. You mentioned dex and wis at 17 which will both be 18 after your level 4 ASI. This is good since it means you will only need two ASI more to max those stats.

Mobile is also a very good feat for a monk so you should see if it can be fitted in.

You didn’t mention your character race or other stats. Dark vision is essential for a shadow monk since the level 6 teleport ability doesn’t work if you can’t see.

Anyway, at this point I would take monk to 5 before multiclassing. Also, perception is a good skill for any character but especially those with high wisdom so it might be useful to take it as a starting skill on most characters.

Was no question about getting to my L4 ASI as quickly as possible - +2 to AC, +1 to initiative, hit, Dex/Wis saves and all the dex-based skills he's proficient in? No brainer. He's half-elven, so Darkvision is also covered.

I'd love Mobility, but it's a whole 'nother discussion about how to prioritize that with another stat increase. I'm inclined to take it second since with Flurry of Blows I could have up to 4 attacks (after L5), and the extra movement plus auto-Disengage with anyone I've attacked means I could flit around the battlefield with impunity.

[spbtc]

I agree with Kerevath. The extra attack will really help land those sneak attacks, since it effectively means you have x2 the number of possible attempts per turn than without Monk 5.

Honestly, I wouldn't even recommend putting that many levels into Rogue. Cunning Action is pretty redundant with your Monk features, unless you're planning on Hiding often. Officially, you can't do a melee attack while Hidden, so talk to your DM about how he runs stealth to determine how well it'll work for you. 1 level into Rogue will be plenty, and the other features of the Arcane Trickster can easily be replaced with Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster. Monk, in particular, is a class that should have as many levels as possible due to the powerful features and the Ki gain each level, and removing 2 levels of Rogue will go a long way into maintaining its high power level.

There's a couple of things with Cunning Action that are attractive. I would like to more easily/quickly hide. I feel like this is something my character can't do as much as I'd like. And while monk also has access to bonus Dash and Disengage, it costs a Ki to do so. Cunning Action would mean being able to do these for "free" and thus improve my Ki point economy. And in addition to a subclass at thief 3, there is also an additional d6 for Sneak Attack. But that said, having the tricky hand and a smattering of debuff spells and a familiar (to setup Advantage, if nothing else) really works well with my character. Raw numbers aside, that build really moves me towards the character I want to play.

[Dalebert]

Mobile is also a very good feat for a monk so you should see if it can be fitted in.


On anything but a shadow monk, I would agree. It's just farts are extra expensive on a monk as they need dex and wisdom and shadow monks already have a ki-free bonus action disengage.

[Man_Over_Game]

farts are extra expensive on a monk

It's not THAT expensive. Step of the Wind is just 1 ki point.

[Dalebert]

It's not THAT expensive. Step of the Wind is just 1 ki point.

Oh... You owe me a dollar for that setup.

*Feats

[LordNibbler]

The challenge with monk is action and ki economy. You can’t shadow step and flurry and free disengage all in the same round. You have to find some ways around it. Mobile gets you a free disengage for a feat. Cunning action is good but delays your cool monk features and ki accumulation by two levels (or more if you’re going further into rogue).
Mechanistically speaking, I think going straight monk with the Mobile feat is the best way to go because you don’t delay extra attack, shadow step, walking on water and up walls, and ki advancement. If you were thinking of dipping three levels in rogue, you’re already giving up an ASI anyway so why not spend it on the feat instead?

[spbtc]

On anything but a shadow monk, I would agree. It's just farts are extra expensive on a monk as they need dex and wisdom and shadow monks already have a ki-free bonus action disengage.

They do? Is that in an expansion, or errata? I don't see it anywhere in the Handbook.

[sophontteks]

There's a couple of things with Cunning Action that are attractive. I would like to more easily/quickly hide. I feel like this is something my character can't do as much as I'd like. And while monk also has access to bonus Dash and Disengage, it costs a Ki to do so. Cunning Action would mean being able to do these for "free" and thus improve my Ki point economy. And in addition to a subclass at thief 3, there is also an additional d6 for Sneak Attack. But that said, having the tricky hand and a smattering of debuff spells and a familiar (to setup Advantage, if nothing else) really works well with my character. Raw numbers aside, that build really moves me towards the character I want to play.

Cunning action also costs you Ki. You are losing 3 ki points by multiclassing. As a short rest resource this equals 6-9 less ki in an adventuring day. At best this is a wash, but I think you are actually coming out behind here.

Your rogue archtype and trickster spells are a wash for the same reason. You are paying with the monks amazing mid-game abilities, and less ki for the shadow monks amazing spell list.

The d6 sneak attack is just a non factor. 3 damage per round is nothing. And the cost is doing less damage with unarmed attacks.

But. Lets talk about making your concept work. Considering the above there are still two big things you want from rogue: hiding in combat, and expertise. You don't need rogue levels for that.

First Hiding:
Shadow monks can cast darkness for 2 ki. Darkness basically makes you invisible, but the caveat. You can't see. This isn't as big a problem as you'd imagine due to the other mechanics of darkness though...

See darkness lasts 10 minutes, so you can cast it before combat begins, unlike most spells. Additionally you can hide darkness under a cloth. If the object you cast it on is completely enclosed, the darkness spell is basically turned off.

Now the final kicker. Interacting with an object is a free action once per turn. So all you have to do to hide better then a rogue is cast darkness on a rock. You go in, do your monk thing in the back line, and pull that rock out of your bag with your free action. Wala! Your shadow monk is invisible, and it didn't even cost a bonus action.

Next turn you put the rock back in your bag. The only caveat here is that you only get one free object interaction per turn, but this is still miles away better then competing with your bonus action.

Now for expertise.
You take prodigy. Umm...thats it. You get expertise in one skill, you get one free skill, and you get a tool profeciency (thieves tools). I guess you get a language too. Take thieves cant for flavor I guess.

[Man_Over_Game]

They do? Is that in an expansion, or errata? I don't see it anywhere in the Handbook.

I believe he's talking about the Shadow-Port effect, which only requires dim lighting (which is very common).

[Keravath]

Cunning action also costs you Ki. You are losing 3 ki points by multiclassing. As a short rest resource this equals 6-9 less ki in an adventuring day. At best this is a wash, but I think you are actually coming out behind here.

Your rogue archtype and trickster spells are a wash for the same reason. You are paying with the monks amazing mid-game abilities, and less ki for the shadow monks amazing spell list.

The d6 sneak attack is just a non factor. 3 damage per round is nothing. And the cost is doing less damage with unarmed attacks.

But. Lets talk about making your concept work. Considering the above there are still two big things you want from rogue: hiding in combat, and expertise. You don't need rogue levels for that.

First Hiding:
Shadow monks can cast darkness for 2 ki. Darkness basically makes you invisible, but the caveat. You can't see. This isn't as big a problem as you'd imagine due to the other mechanics of darkness though...

See darkness lasts 10 minutes, so you can cast it before combat begins, unlike most spells. Additionally you can hide darkness under a cloth. If the object you cast it on is completely enclosed, the darkness spell is basically turned off.

Now the final kicker. Interacting with an object is a free action once per turn. So all you have to do to hide better then a rogue is cast darkness on a rock. You go in, do your monk thing in the back line, and pull that rock out of your bag with your free action. Wala! Your shadow monk is invisible, and it didn't even cost a bonus action.

Next turn you put the rock back in your bag. The only caveat here is that you only get one free object interaction per turn, but this is still miles away better then competing with your bonus action.

Now for expertise.
You take prodigy. Umm...thats it. You get expertise in one skill, you get one free skill, and you get a tool profeciency (thieves tools). I guess you get a language too. Take thieves cant for flavor I guess.

I just want to note that your use of darkness doesn't work RAW the way you seem to think.

In the vision rules it states the following.
-If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage to attack them
-If your target can't see you then you have advantage to attack them

If neither attacker nor target can see each other then advantage and disadvantage cancel out and attack rolls are straight rolls with neither advantage nor disadvantage.

On the other hand, if the rogue manages to hide then they are unseen and unheard and attackers will have disadvantage to attack them and the rogue has advantage for one attack against their target. So casting darkness doesn't match a rogue in terms of hiding.

Invisibility is the same. Casting invisibility makes you unseen but your position is still known. If you can see your target and they can not see you then you have advantage to attack them and the target has disadvantage to attack you. However, this is because you can STILL see your target when invisible which you can not do when covered by darkness (unless you are a warlock with the devils sight invocation). Also, you need greater invisbility in order to make attacks without ending the invisibility spell.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I'm playing a Way of the Shadow Monk right now. I started as Monk 1/Ranger 1 and I really wish I had gone straight Monk at first, at least until level 6. I had the benefit of being a Goblin at least, so I had ba hide and disengage from the beginning, but I've hardly used the feature (think I did it once to disengage and feed our main healer a healing potion when she went unconscious).

A lot of the Shadow Monk abilities might end up being a little redundant with rogue. At level 6, you get a bonus action dim light/darkness teleport that acts as a dash+disengage all at once. If you find yourself in the light, you can still use ki. Expertise in stealth is overkill with Pass Without Trace. Expertise doesn't seem particularly necessary with thieves' tools either Just normal proficiency should be enough for most things. I'd argue that Mobile might not even be necessary, with all the ways you have to get around, but it's still a fun one to mess with.

I'd personally recommend getting to level 6 as Shadow Monk, then looking into multiclassing from there if you want. Chances are that you won't feel it's as necessary. After that point, though, you'll have a bunch of goodies to optimize sneak attacks (bonus action teleport to get advantage to trigger SA).

[Spieldog20]

Going to level 4 monk and then MCing instead of at least getting level 5 monk first is very suboptimal.

Not just for delaying extra attack at level, which would enough by itself, but also for STUNNING STRIKE at monk level 5. I did not see anyone mention stunning strike yet...for shame.

[sophontteks]

I just want to note that your use of darkness doesn't work RAW the way you seem to think.

In the vision rules it states the following.
-If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage to attack them
-If your target can't see you then you have advantage to attack them

If neither attacker nor target can see each other then advantage and disadvantage cancel out and attack rolls are straight rolls with neither advantage nor disadvantage.

On the other hand, if the rogue manages to hide then they are unseen and unheard and attackers will have disadvantage to attack them and the rogue has advantage for one attack against their target. So casting darkness doesn't match a rogue in terms of hiding.

Invisibility is the same. Casting invisibility makes you unseen but your position is still known. If you can see your target and they can not see you then you have advantage to attack them and the target has disadvantage to attack you. However, this is because you can STILL see your target when invisible which you can not do when covered by darkness (unless you are a warlock with the devils sight invocation). Also, you need greater invisbility in order to make attacks without ending the invisibility spell.
You aren't wrong. I'm aware of this fact. There are a few things to note here though. There are actually a lot of fun tricks a shadow monk can pull off with darkness.

If the enemy can't see you they don't get to make a reaction. Takeing the dark rock out is a free action disengage. Rogues can't both disengage and hide.

This assumes they know where you are. I've heard some say that if you aren't specifically hiding then every enemy knows exactly where you are no matter what, but normally the enemy would be left guessing. This is a big problem for ranged attackers and spellcasters.

Simple target priority. The enemy can't see you, they think they know your in the darkness (good fun if you actually dropped the rock and shadow stepped out of their sight.) They are probably not going to go in and try to find you in a team fight.