Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

[Sparky McDibben]

Seriously, Healing Spirit gets a bad wrap, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. This seems very balanced for its level and purpose. What am I missing?

[ATHATH]

You can use it outside of combat and have every member of your party be healed by 10d6 HP each for the low price of a minute of spare time and a level 2 spell slot.

[Sparky McDibben]

Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.

[2D8HP]

Healing Spirit


"Healer" I found among the Feats in the PHB, and "Healing Word" I found among the Spells, but "Healing Spirit"?

Which book is it in?

Well whichever it's in (Xanthar's?, SCAG?) the strike against it is that my backpack is heavy enough with just the PHB and DMG, and one more is even more pain on my shoulders.

[Aett_Thorn]

Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.

I mean, if it’s comparable to a long rest as a level 2 spell, that’s still pretty powerful. And it’s basically a full heal on the whole party, for minimal investment. It’s a more powerful out-of-combat heal than other spells that are designed just for that.

It’s easy enough to modify it to make it weaker, but it’s definitely more powerful than it should be.

[Sparky McDibben]

Xanathar's, I believe. I feel your pain, as on behalf of your orthopedic surgeon, I would recommend you switch to pdf's.

[Sparky McDibben]

Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.

[JNAProductions]

Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.

One minute is one tenth of ten minutes (and one 480th of eight hours), it doesn't require you to be unalert, doesn't require spending resources other than a 2nd level slot...

So yeah. Healing Spirit is just kinda borked in terms of healing.

I'm not against players having good access to healing, though. It lets me make fights harder without as much concern about them dropping.

[ATHATH]

Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.
And you can't see how being able to get the HP benefits of a long rest with a 2nd level spell might be a teensy bit broken in comparison to Catnap?

[LudicSavant]

Healing Spirit is basically an upgrade to what was already considered one of the most powerful healing combos in the game: Life Cleric / Lore Bard taking Aura of Vitality. Life Cleric 1 / anything with Healing Spirit is basically an ugprade to that, because it affects an area, is more versatile (with its great up/downcasting), and can potentially activate more than once per round.

It is legitimately hard for many standard monsters' DPR to keep up with that (remember, healing auto-hits), and that's just your bonus action every round. And it'll heal the party back up to full after the combat's over, too.

It's not just the base 1d6/round at level 2 that makes it strong. It's all the synergies and tactics and little niggling properties that allow you to push it further (such as the fact that it upcasts well, or can activate multiple times).

[Sparky McDibben]

If you're playing the opposition intelligently, shouldn't they notice the PCs have healed, and try to target the one whose carrying all the holy goodies? Like, c'mon guys. This isn't that big a deal. I don't see how this gives you the benefit of a rest (it heals you - that's it). It's not a viable replacement for other sources of healing.

And remember, anything the PCs can do, the monsters can do, too.

[Torpin]

Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.

catnap is only able to affect a character once per day

[Aett_Thorn]

I know, right? And if you're playing the opposition intelligently, shouldn't they notice the PCs have healed, and try to target the one whose carrying all the holy goodies?

How would your monsters know which character is using the spell? Have they been tracking the party’s health the whole time and noticing what is going on?

[Trustypeaches]

If you're playing the opposition intelligently, shouldn't they notice the PCs have healed, and try to target the one whose carrying all the holy goodies? Like, c'mon guys. This isn't that big a deal. I don't see how this gives you the benefit of a rest (it heals you - that's it). It's not a viable replacement for other sources of healing.

And remember, anything the PCs can do, the monsters can do, too.Thats all the more reason to remove it, IMO.

Also most people argue that it’s broken in regards to out-of-Combat healing, where it definitely does outclass most other sources of healing.

You compare it to long or short resting but neither of those can be accomplished in a single minute.

[Sparky McDibben]

How would your monsters know which character is using the spell? Have they been tracking the party’s health the whole time and noticing what is going on?

Yes. The monsters want to survive, too. If they have had time to plan, give them a spellcaster and a few scrolls of either counterspell or dispel magic. Between fights when the party uses healing spirit for the second time, BOOM! Hit them with another attack and take away that spell slot.

Now you've put the PCs on notice: the monsters are watching you. The monsters are learning from you. And the monsters are smart enough to plan around your abilities.

[JackPhoenix]

Yes. The monsters want to survive, too. If they have had time to plan, give them a spellcaster and a few scrolls of either counterspell or dispel magic. Between fights when the party uses healing spirit for the second time, BOOM! Hit them with another attack and take away that spell slot.

Now you've put the PCs on notice: the monsters are watching you. The monsters are learning from you. And the monsters are smart enough to plan around your abilities.

And the GM is pulling stuff out of his behind to stop players using unbalanced spell.

[Dr. Cliché]

IMO it would be fine if the healing effect could only activate once per turn (rather than once per person per turn).

Not just for reasons of power but because it feels so stupid to end each fight with the party doing an acrobatics routine to regain health.

[Sparky McDibben]

And the GM is pulling stuff out of his behind to stop players using unbalanced spell.

No, I'm playing monsters in a resourceful, intelligent fashion. I'm letting my players use their resources to full effect and reacting accordingly. Assuming the PCs have decent Perception, they'll have a chance to disrupt their enemies. Almost like we're playing D&D or something.

[JNAProductions]

No, I'm playing monsters in a resourceful, intelligent fashion. I'm letting my players use their resources to full effect and reacting accordingly. Assuming the PCs have decent Perception, they'll have a chance to disrupt their enemies. Almost like we're playing D&D or something.

So, how many enemies are already level 3 or higher Druids? Or level 6 (I think) or higher Rangers?

Because otherwise, they don't have access to the spell.

In addition to that, a Player/DM arms race is BAD. It's just not healthy for the game. If you don't like players using Healing Spirit, just ban it.

[Sparky McDibben]

Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.

Healing spirit gives some great healing out of combat. It's not as good as a short rest because it doesn't replenish resources. It might nerf encounters against underprepared or stupid enemies, but otherwise all it lets you do is run more dangerous dungeons with enemies that can heal the way the PCs do.

Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?

[Boci]

Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?

Because it pigeonholes the DM into only using monsters who are intelligent and resources and in a position to reacts to the spell. That's restrictive, to say nothing of the argument this can cause if players feel the DM is being too generous with the monster's tactical abilities.

[Sparky McDibben]

So, how many enemies are already level 3 or higher Druids? Or level 6 (I think) or higher Rangers?

Because otherwise, they don't have access to the spell.

In addition to that, a Player/DM arms race is BAD. It's just not healthy for the game. If you don't like players using Healing Spirit, just ban it.

I would agree! Adversarial DMing is bad, full stop.

However, I don't consider that an arms race. I'm not trying to kill the party, the monsters are. Again, if it doesn't make sense for the monsters to have done recon, then don't play them that way. But otherwise, play up every advantage you can reasonably get your grubby little paws on.

[Particle_Man]

As long as we are doing an arms race, holy symbols are cheap. If the entire party is wearing them do your monsters always target the right pc? Because this is beginning to look less like intelligent monsters and more like meta gaming. Also, many monsters are stupid. Some are animals. And some get killed to the last man in an encounter and can’t tell their buddies what the pcs did in combat or immediately after it. And if the dm pulls that trick, can a pc use simple illusion to fake a healing spirit first, let it be dispelled by the bad guys, and then have the cleric cast the real healing spirit?

[Pex]

Some people are bothered PCs are at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day.

Some even for the first.

[JNAProductions]

Some people are bothered PCs are at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day.

Some even for the first.

Pex, can you agree that (relative to the rest of the healing in 5E) Healing Spirit is out of whack?

Now, you can argue that it's fine (and I'd be willing to agree with you, for a large portion of games) but it's kinda hard to say with a straight face that it's in-line with the other healing spells available to the players.

But, to address Sparky... Either allow the spell or don't. Don't "allow" it and punish the players for using it. If you're okay with the players going into most fights with full HP at the cost of a 2nd level spell (which, at low levels, is actually not always an easy trade to make, though at high levels it's chump change) then allow it. If not, then just straight-up disallow the spell.

[Shuruke]

Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.

May not be as effective as a long rest

But compare it to another 2nd level healing spell
Prayer of Healing
10 minute cast time
6 creatures heal 2d8+mod

[Kane0]

Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.

Healing spirit gives some great healing out of combat. It's not as good as a short rest because it doesn't replenish resources. It might nerf encounters against underprepared or stupid enemies, but otherwise all it lets you do is run more dangerous dungeons with enemies that can heal the way the PCs do.

Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?

The spell is too good for its level. That is the problem. Compare it to a second level Cure Wounds, Goodberry or Healing Word. Put it up against Prayer of Healing or Aura of Vitality. It's very, very efficient.

Yes, you can deal with the problem easily and in multiple ways. But that is different to saying there is no problem.

[Corran]

Pex, can you agree that (relative to the rest of the healing in 5E) Healing Spirit is out of whack?

Now, you can argue that it's fine (and I'd be willing to agree with you, for a large portion of games) but it's kinda hard to say with a straight face that it's in-line with the other healing spells available to the players.

I am not Pex, but I agree. There is a disctinction here though, that I think is worth pointing out. Healing spirit does not necessarily make all the other healing spells less good (talking about out of combat healing), because it's on a different spell list. If all these spells were on the same spell list, then yeah, that would be a problem. As is, it only really hits goodberry. And I am tempted to think this was intentional. Ie the designers wanted to give the druid a very good out of combat healing spell, so that we can see less of the goodberry stacking nonsense.

[Frozenstep]

Some people play DnD has a resource game. Days are long, spells run dry if used recklessly, resources get expended. Health is a major resource that drains. A short rest helps a lot, but eventually your hit dice run dry too. Eventually players are left making tough choices, taking note of what they have left for each combat, whether the current time-based objective can wait a night, or if they should down some healing potions. Or even abandon the mission altogether, if the objective isn't worth the risk.

I've started to prefer running my game this way, because it rewards players for figuring out an efficient way to beat an encounter, it's less swingy and easier for me to balance since I don't need to make every combat life or death, yet still causes tension when a poor decision can wear a party out long before they accomplish what they set out to do.

Healing spirit throws off that careful balance, making any class that can cast it feel mandatory in that kind of game. It's just way more healing then anyone else can provide for the same resource. Yes, I could throw tougher combats to counter it, but that only makes it feel even more mandatory.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.
Unless your campaign is, like, one constant fight against well-coordinated enemies, it's pretty hard to reasonably interrupt a minute of downtime. The healing isn't happening on the battlefield; it's happening between fights, after all the enemies (or PCs) are dead or fled, and there's no immediate threat to life or limb.

[stoutstien]

The idea was great. A movable healing spell that can potential last a whole fight. Maybe if it just had x charges and u can increase them with up casting 3 d6s to start?

[Benny89]

I agree it's OP, but so are Goodberries with Life Cleric level 1 dip. Druid with Life Cleric is generally best off-combat healer in game. Goodberries 24h duration, each one healing for 4HP (from level 1 slot) is already bonkers. Healing Spirit healing for 1d6 + 4 for each tick for a minute (10 ticks for 10d6 + 40, so 75 heal per party member) is just really strong.

Now, I don't really mind as DM, I can deal with that. I don't really need players to not be full HP between encounters, but I understand why some DM have problems with it. Sufficient to say that Life Cleric 1/X Druid can have accesst to both 75 heal Healing Spirit as well as hundreds of healing points as goodberries is just over the top.

If that Druid is also Shep Druid, you also have like 24 boosted wolfs running around, doing magical dmg, prone target and attacking with advantage...

I fully understand hate of many.

[Pex]

Pex, can you agree that (relative to the rest of the healing in 5E) Healing Spirit is out of whack?

Now, you can argue that it's fine (and I'd be willing to agree with you, for a large portion of games) but it's kinda hard to say with a straight face that it's in-line with the other healing spells available to the players.

But, to address Sparky... Either allow the spell or don't. Don't "allow" it and punish the players for using it. If you're okay with the players going into most fights with full HP at the cost of a 2nd level spell (which, at low levels, is actually not always an easy trade to make, though at high levels it's chump change) then allow it. If not, then just straight-up disallow the spell.

I would say the other healing spells are horrible, and it's about time there's a healing spell that actually heals. The Healer feat heals better than most healing spells.

[greenstone]

You can use it outside of combat and have every member of your party be healed by 10d6 HP each for the low price of a minute of spare time and a level 2 spell slot.
Don't forget concentration. The druid or ranger has to choose between healing the party and keeping barkskin , conjure X, pass without trace, or hunter's mark going (or any of the other concentration spells, but I think the ones I listed are the most common).

[strangebloke]

Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.

Healing spirit gives some great healing out of combat. It's not as good as a short rest because it doesn't replenish resources. It might nerf encounters against underprepared or stupid enemies, but otherwise all it lets you do is run more dangerous dungeons with enemies that can heal the way the PCs do.

Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?

The problem is not that its impossible or even difficult for a DM to deal with. You can, of course, have a large body of monsters ready to ambush them as soon as the previous fight ends. I can honestly say that I cannot think of any spell or feature in the game that is truly difficult to deal with.

The issue is not that DMs can't deal with it.

The problem is that an entire campaign may need to be fundamentally changed depending on whether or not this one spell is in play.

IE, in a campaign with HS, you could probably assume that a "Deadly -> Deadly -> Short Rest -> Hard -> Hard -> Short Rest -> Deadly" is going to be very challenging, because by the second short rest the party may be pretty well gassed. They might not have hit dice to spend, and they'll probably have to spend lots of spells to compensate. That first deadly going into the second deadly encounter with only a short break is going to seriously cost them because they won't really get to heal up without spending a lot of spells.

Unless.

Unless there's a frickin' druid who frickin casts healing spirit. Then you've got to dovetail encounters directly after each other. You have to assume that the cost of 'healing up' via spellcasting is effectively nill.

And to be clear, there's no cost. Not really. There's no build cost. Druids know their whole list. This isn't some niche multiclass or feat combo trick. This is not even a class feature. This is just... a spell. One of many that druids will know.

The resource cost is ludicrously low compared to everything else at that level. Prayer of healing takes ten times as long to cast and heals a third the HP. Even specific cheesy abuses of RAW that are not RAI like the Greatberry still pale in comparison to HEALING SPIRIT.

It is the only spell in my entire game that is banned, and will remain so.

He's a counter: "What does Healing Spirit add to the game?"


I would say the other healing spells are horrible, and it's about time there's a healing spell that actually heals. The Healer feat heals better than most healing spells.

Why is it a bad thing that a non-magical character specializing in healing is as good as a magical character who is not specialized in healing?

[NaughtyTiger]

Out of combat, every character gets 10d6 healing for a 2nd level spell.

In combat, you can get 5d6 over 2 rounds to 2-3 characters for a 2nd level spell. AND every one still gets their action. even the caster.

[Atalas]

of the two campaigns I'm currently in, only one has a druid. And we abuse the heck out of Healing Spirit. And the DM? He's fine with it. Just means he can throw rougher stuff at us.

[strangebloke]

If you just want an in-combat concentration requiring healing effect, you need to use some kind of healing effect that doesn't work outside of combat.

Like: "All targets gain '1d6' temporary HP when they first enter the spell's radius and whenever they start their turn within the spell's radius." or "All characters below half health regain 1d6 hit points..." or "Once each round, as a reaction, all targets of the spell can, as a reaction, prevent 2d6 damage to themselves."

All of the above make the spell more interesting, less overpowered, and BETTER. That's how you make a spell designed for combat. What's hilarious to me is that WotC seemed to know how to do this at one point, and then forgot.


of the two campaigns I'm currently in, only one has a druid. And we abuse the heck out of Healing Spirit. And the DM? He's fine with it. Just means he can throw rougher stuff at us.

And good for him! But what if the player with the druid wants to give up his druid and roll a cleric? He's still the healer, he just sucks at it now. And the DM just completely slacks off on difficulty?

Obviously you'd still have fun, but does healing spirit really add any fun to the game for the extra work it makes for your DM?

[TyGuy]

The idea was great. A movable healing spell that can potential last a whole fight. Maybe if it just had x charges and u can increase them with up casting 3 d6s to start?

So I don't know if you guys heard, but

"If healing spirit has felt too effective in your game, try this house rule, which holds the spell to our expectations for it: the spell ends once the spirit has restored hit points a number of times equal to twice your spellcasting ability modifier (minimum of once)" - Jeremy Crawford

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/935992604080013312?lang=en

[OldTrees1]

I would say the other healing spells are horrible, and it's about time there's a healing spell that actually heals. The Healer feat heals better than most healing spells.

It is true that Feats scale in power more than spells unless those spells get upcasted. However even under the presumption that healing spells should be better than a Feat (remembering 5E supercharged feats), Healing Spirit is way above curve.

Inspiring Leader in a party of 6: 6 * Level + 6 * Mod per short rest
Healer Feat in a party of 6: 6 * Level + 6d6 + 24
Aura of Vitality: 20d6 per 3rd level slot
Healing Spirit in a party of 6: 60d6 per 2nd level slot
Prayer of Healing in a party of 6: 12d8 + 6 * Mod per 2nd level slot

Around 4th level 1 2nd level Druid slot can be used per Short rest.
Around 11th level 1 3rd level Paladin slot can be used per Short rest.

4th level: 1 slot or per short rest
Inspiring Leader (+3 Mod): 42
Healer Feat(Avg): 69
Healing Spirit: 210
Prayer of Healing(+3 Mod): 72

11th level: 1 slot or per short rest
Inspiring Leader (+5 Mod): 96
Healer Feat(Avg): 111
Healing Spirit: 210
Prayer of Healing(+5 Mod): 84
Aura of Vitality: 70

20th level: 1 slot or per short rest
Inspiring Leader (+5 Mod): 150
Healer Feat(Avg): 165
Healing Spirit: 210
Prayer of Healing(+5 Mod): 84
Aura of Vitality: 70

We can see the other strong healing spells start off stronger or at least comparable to the strong healing feats. As the healing feats scale they get stronger than the healing spells, but the healing spells are also getting cheaper. At 20th level you could readily afford 2 Prayers of Healing per Short Rest and then it would be stronger than the Healer Feat.

However Healing Spirit is a different story. Healing Spirit starts off much stronger than the other options, ends stronger than the other options, and also benefits from getting cheaper just like other low level spells do.

Conclusion: If you include Healing Spirit in your game, then you have decided to greatly increase the HP the party will have per day. This can be used to make the game even less dangerous. OR it might be as a response to wanting to include other changes that would demand more HP per day*. Healing Spirit is not balanced relative to existing STRONG healing.

*Maybe PEX is running a campaign where the air is poisonous and deals 6hp of damage per hour. Healing Spirit's OP amount of healing would be a great way for PEX to enable the players to even attempt such a campaign. For a party of 6 PCs that would be 864 damage per day or just slightly more than 1.33 Healing Spirits per Short Rest. So a trivial background radiation for the PCs if they have access to Healing Spirit but one that required some party planning and investment to overcome.

[Contrast]

Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.

Healing spirit gives some great healing out of combat. It's not as good as a short rest because it doesn't replenish resources. It might nerf encounters against underprepared or stupid enemies, but otherwise all it lets you do is run more dangerous dungeons with enemies that can heal the way the PCs do.

Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?

If the monsters are able to interrupt a 1 min long healing spell I do question how the players are ever managing to get a short rest in (let alone a long rest).

The issue with the spell is that its by far the most efficient healing spell in the game. Its presence basically complete removes HP attrition over the course of the adventuring day as a potential source of danger once you're at mid to higher levels and you have level 2 spell slots to burn. Whether thats a problem depends on if you were intending to have HP attrition serve as a potential source of danger.

If you're the type of DM who just loves slinging full power encounters at your PCs all day long its a godsend. If you like the players having to face difficult choices about pushing on or holding back its a nightmare.

Personally I'm thinking they didn't realise how effective it was out of combat (it seems weird to me thematically that they'd choose to give the best healing by a mile to rangers/druids and occupying a level 2 slot) but find attempting to nerf it by an in/out of combat division silly. The only game I've been in where its been taken so far though neither the druid or ranger have opted to cast it (either due to a lack of awareness or system mastery I don't know) but the campaign is very low danger so it hasn't really been called for either so *shrugs*.

[NaughtyTiger]

So I don't know if you guys heard, but

"If healing spirit has felt too effective in your game, try this house rule, which holds the spell to our expectations for it: the spell ends once the spirit has restored hit points a number of times equal to twice your spellcasting ability modifier (minimum of once)" - Jeremy Crawford

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/935992604080013312?lang=en

Translation, since we didnt do our job and write balanced material or playtest the content you paid 50$ for, you should homebrew a solution.

[diplomancer]

Translation, since we didnt do our job and write balanced material or playtest the content you paid 50$ for, you should homebrew a solution.

That is, well, harsh. Even assuming Healing Spirit is broken (see Treatmonk's analysis of 2nd level spells for a contrary reasoning), it would only be true if you bought Xanathar for healing spirit alone.

[noob]

"Healer" I found among the Feats in the PHB, and "Healing Word" I found among the Spells, but "Healing Spirit"?

Which book is it in?

Well whichever it's in (Xanthar's?, SCAG?) the strike against it is that my backpack is heavy enough with just the PHB and DMG, and one more is even more pain on my shoulders.

You did not switch to just reading the srd?
Is there is stuff from the dmg or phb missing in the 5e srd?
Switching to SRD allows to play with no books at all which can be convenient. (in usual play you mostly do not need to read any rule until you have to roll for a fight)

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't hate it. Therefore, everyone does not hate it. I think it's a fine spell.

Our DM ruled (Our Bar/Druid MC is at Druid Level 4) that it was confined to one person per application per 1/10th of a minute as what the "5' cube" means.

This makes it an easy heal between combat, while not changing the effectiveness in combat. It works differently from "Prayer of Healing" which can heal a whole party but takes 10 minutes to do .... usually between combats. Depending on the size of the party, the Prayer of Healing can do more raw HP of healing since it heals everyone within a certain distance.


Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Up to 1 minute
Classes: Druid, Ranger
You call forth a nature spirit to soothe the wounded. The intangible spirit appears in a space that is a 5-foot cube you can see within range.

The spirit looks like a transparent beast or fey (your choice). Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required). The spirit can’t heal constructs or undead. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the spirit up to 30 feet to a space you can see.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 2nd.

[noob]

So 10d6 for one level 2 spell slot.(20d6 if using level 3 slot and using higher level slots starts being just a waste of useful slots)

[NaughtyTiger]

That is, well, harsh. Even assuming Healing Spirit is broken (see Treatmonk's analysis of 2nd level spells for a contrary reasoning), it would only be true if you bought Xanathar for healing spirit alone.

Treatmonks analysis is deeply flawed, because he thought it operated using the suggested nerfed rules.

Much of xge was not playtested. They have admitted it. Healing spirit is just the most obvious evidence

[Jophiel]

If you're playing the opposition intelligently, shouldn't they notice the PCs have healed, and try to target the one whose carrying all the holy goodies?
Owlbears, Hook Horrors and Purple Worms don't recognize holy symbols and not everyone with cleric levels dresses like the archbishop.

[Imbalance]

Not everyone hates it. For example, this morning is the first I've heard of it, and I like it.

[Sparky McDibben]

The problem is that an entire campaign may need to be fundamentally changed depending on whether or not this one spell is in play.

IE, in a campaign with HS, you could probably assume that a "Deadly -> Deadly -> Short Rest -> Hard -> Hard -> Short Rest -> Deadly" is going to be very challenging, because by the second short rest the party may be pretty well gassed. They might not have hit dice to spend, and they'll probably have to spend lots of spells to compensate. That first deadly going into the second deadly encounter with only a short break is going to seriously cost them because they won't really get to heal up without spending a lot of spells.

Unless.

Unless there's a frickin' druid who frickin casts healing spirit. Then you've got to dovetail encounters directly after each other. You have to assume that the cost of 'healing up' via spellcasting is effectively nill.

And to be clear, there's no cost. Not really. There's no build cost. Druids know their whole list. This isn't some niche multiclass or feat combo trick. This is not even a class feature. This is just... a spell. One of many that druids will know.

The resource cost is ludicrously low compared to everything else at that level. Prayer of healing takes ten times as long to cast and heals a third the HP. Even specific cheesy abuses of RAW that are not RAI like the Greatberry still pale in comparison to HEALING SPIRIT.

It is the only spell in my entire game that is banned, and will remain so.

He's a counter: "What does Healing Spirit add to the game?"

This is an excellent post, and a solid counterargument! From what I'm understanding, you believe this is resource-free healing. I disagree for reasons I have already enumerated, but let me address a slightly different cost: opportunity cost! If you're preparing healing spirit, that's a slot you might have held open for darkvision, lesser restoration, heat metal, hold person, pass without trace, and/or spike growth. For rangers it's much worse, given their low number of spells known.

Is healing spirit worth all that? Absolutely. But we ought to be aware there's a tradeoff. It might be an optimal tradeoff, but it's still a tradeoff. If the druid wants to be a healbot, then they aren't doing a lot of the other awesome things druids can do. Given that their spells only refresh on a long rest (unless you have Natural Recovery), you're forcing them to expend resources every time they cast this spell, even if you don't play the enemies smart. Even at level 20, a druid has only 18 spell slots they can use to cast healing spirit. So if you're running six encounters per day and the druid is healing spirit after all of them, they've reduced their spell slots by a third. So you can really run high-lethality, high-danger combats if this spell is in play. Or you can do a running series of battles. Or you can start using the exhaustion mechanic. Go nuts!

As to your question, "What does healing spirit add?" I would argue it doesn't add much. It's an option. It's a really good option, but it's an option, and the basic calculus remains unchanged. It is still better to prevent damage than to heal damage. Rather than take a tool away from my players, I would prefer to work with the tools I'm given if they start abusing it. I just talk to my players and say, "Look guys, this is a pretty good option. But you shouldn't expect that the bad guys are stupid. They're going to figure out what's up eventually, and then they'll adapt their tactics to reduce your advantage."

[MrStabby]

As a DM I don't like the spell.

It ties my hands.

I want a balanced game (well maybe I want a fun game more, but for me balance contributes to this).


Now I can handle Healing Spirit very easily from a party difficulty perspective. Just make things harder and its OK. Just go for fewer,bigger combats.

The problem is that fewer but bigger combats screws up the balance between players. No longer is having a d12 hit die really cool for continuing to have a good amount of HP - your class feature has been superseded by a level 2 spell. Spells like spirit guardians get better - in a bigger fight there are more things to hit; same thing with fireball.

All of those great decision making moments: to hide, to fight to run... it changes the balance so much with easy access to such great healing.

The worst thing is that it puts a bit of distortion on the game world. In hostile country there are no more patrols (or they get hand waved away "you meet a patrol, if you fight them you kill them - remove a 2nd level spell slot and be on full HP). Instead the only hostile forces you see are much bigger.

When I am building an adventure I can balance it easily and then, from the set of things that are balanced, I can find the game options that I think will appeal to my players the most. If I have to look at that set of options that are balanced, but also balanced factoring in healing spirit, I am looking at a smaller subset of options. Unsurprisingly the most narratively consistent, fun and rewarding adventures are often outside of this subset that the spell has forced me into. At best it makes for an adventure that wouldn't be as good as it otherwise would be.


There is a difference between this spell from a DMs perspective and a player perspective. The player sees what happens; the DM sees both what happens but also what could have happened. The DM sees what has been forgone to have that spell in the game.

[Keravath]

How would your monsters know which character is using the spell? Have they been tracking the party’s health the whole time and noticing what is going on?

Ummm ... they see a caster wave their hands, this spirit appears, the opponents start running through it and look better after they do so.

First thing the opponents do is go stand where the spirit is. This shuts down the healing train until the caster's turn comes around and they can move it.

Second thing opponents do, if the rather modest amount of healing is a problem, is focus their attention on the caster. One failed concentration save solves the problem. Ranged attackers are particularly good for this since they can hit the back lines.

Anyway, in play, I haven't found any issues with healing spirit use in combat ... it can be useful for ongoing healing depending on the circumstances but isn't really a problem.

Out of combat, healing spirit will restore the entire party to full hit points between encounters. Personally, I haven't found this to be a big deal either (parties both with and without it function fine) and it doesn't really unbalance things in any really significant way since the DM knows it is there and the encounters will likely be scaled accordingly.

The one effect it does have is to make some of the existing spells like Aura of Vitality look less effective in comparison. So in terms of comparing to existing spells it does appear to be above the typical power level for a second level spell and healing spirit scales while some of the likely comparable spells do not.

In my opinion, healing spirit doesn't break anything, a party with it is no more difficult to plan and build encounters for that a party without it. However, the capability provided by the spell is more versatile and more powerful than other comparable healing options.

[Contrast]

It is still better to prevent damage than to heal damage. Rather than take a tool away from my players, I would prefer to work with the tools I'm given if they start abusing it. I just talk to my players and say, "Look guys, this is a pretty good option. But you shouldn't expect that the bad guys are stupid. They're going to figure out what's up eventually, and then they'll adapt their tactics to reduce your advantage."

Is it better to prevent than heal damage? It feels like a spell would have to prevent several rounds worth of attacks against the entire party to trump it which is a pretty high bar. Don't get me wrong I've seen encounters won by Spike Growth and there are reasons to not rely on healing up after (someone going down and having to spend a Healing Word to keep them alive is more wasteful for example) but if an encounter left party members alive by a reasonable margin there's a pretty good chance you'd have been better off just letting them tank and and heal up after if needed.

I'm also still keen to hear what tactic you think is effective against Healing Spirit that wouldn't be substantially more effective against a party without Healing Spirit.


Edit - and regarding using 1/3 of your spell slots. You're probably not going to need to heal up after every single encounter. And you are still going to want to short rest. But multiple times a day and at a minutes notice you can go from almost dead to fighting fit. That is a substantially powerful spell which changes how you play the game.

[stoutstien]

Ummm ... they see a caster wave their hands, this spirit appears, the opponents start running through it and look better after they do so.

First thing the opponents do is go stand where the spirit is. This shuts down the healing train until the caster's turn comes around and they can move it.

Second thing opponents do, if the rather modest amount of healing is a problem, is focus their attention on the caster. One failed concentration save solves the problem. Ranged attackers are particularly good for this since they can hit the back lines.

Anyway, in play, I haven't found any issues with healing spirit use in combat ... it can be useful for ongoing healing depending on the circumstances but isn't really a problem.

Out of combat, healing spirit will restore the entire party to full hit points between encounters. Personally, I haven't found this to be a big deal either (parties both with and without it function fine) and it doesn't really unbalance things in any really significant way since the DM knows it is there and the encounters will likely be scaled accordingly.

The one effect it does have is to make some of the existing spells like Aura of Vitality look less effective in comparison. So in terms of comparing to existing spells it does appear to be above the typical power level for a second level spell and healing spirit scales while some of the likely comparable spells do not.

In my opinion, healing spirit doesn't break anything, a party with it is no more difficult to plan and build encounters for that a party without it. However, the capability provided by the spell is more versatile and more powerful than other comparable healing options.

If a DM has to rebalance the entire campaign due to a single spell or ablity something is wrong. Image if that every new adventure book has a sub section with alternative encounters if the party has access to healing Spirit.

[qube]

Seriously, Healing Spirit gets a bad wrap, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. This seems very balanced for its level and purpose. What am I missing?Simple:

You can't argue it's "very balanced for its level and purpose" and then continue not to compare it with anything for the same level & purpose.


It's hated, becasue, while it's balanced toward in combat use. However, it can be used outside of combat to a dramatically more healing. This is because
not everyone is free to move as they please during combat. outside of combat, in practice, they are.
healing over time is far less efficient when time is of the essence
it requires the spellcaster's concentration - disabling him from casting other powerful spells (again, not really relevant outside combat)

Compared to other 2nd level out-of-combat healing (Prayer of Healing), it's
about twice as powerful ( ~15, for max 6 people vs ~35 for all people who're able to move through it)
more useful (can be used in- & outside of combat)

(not even mentioning 1/10th of the time required, and the fact it can be used both in and out of combat)


So I don't know if you guys heard, but

"If healing spirit has felt too effective in your game, try this house rule, which holds the spell to our expectations for it: the spell ends once the spirit has restored hit points a number of times equal to twice your spellcasting ability modifier (minimum of once)" - Jeremy Crawford

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/935992604080013312?lang=envery nice fix.

[Particle_Man]

Also, the dm has to scramble if the Druid has used healing spirit but prepares (due to a love of variety) different spells that day or the Druid isn’t there because the player is sick. Now those super prepared monsters and npcs tpk the party that had, but now lacks, healing spirit. Or the dm has to assume the monsters and Npcs get dumber again?

[Sparky McDibben]

Now I can handle Healing Spirit very easily from a party difficulty perspective. Just make things harder and its OK. Just go for fewer, bigger combats.

I would disagree - go for more, smaller combats. This ups the resource management part of the game. SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE, MRSTABBY!!!!


The worst thing is that it puts a bit of distortion on the game world. In hostile country there are no more patrols (or they get hand waved away "you meet a patrol, if you fight them you kill them - remove a 2nd level spell slot and be on full HP).

Good God, man! Look, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So, I view random encounters from the purpose of those encounters. Mechanically, random encounters are there to make the world seem real - you don't want to go running around the forest because there are monsters in the forest! Owlbears, goblins, and oni, oh my! However, these are distinct from patrols. Patrols are sent out because someone wants to find out what's wandering around out there. If the party encounters them, the goal should be either to kill them all (and not let anyone get back to notify their boss), or avoid them entirely. If the party kills them all, then your party is now on the clock. That patrol will be missed, and in 1d6+2 hours (my personal rule of thumb; do what makes sense for you, obviously!) someone will come looking for them. That someone will likely be on guard, more heavily armed and armoured, and possibly with a spellcaster.

So healing spirit doesn't do anything a short rest couldn't in this situation! :)


When I am building an adventure I can balance it easily and then, from the set of things that are balanced, I can find the game options that I think will appeal to my players the most. If I have to look at that set of options that are balanced, but also balanced factoring in healing spirit, I am looking at a smaller subset of options. Unsurprisingly the most narratively consistent, fun and rewarding adventures are often outside of this subset that the spell has forced me into. At best it makes for an adventure that wouldn't be as good as it otherwise would be.


There is a difference between this spell from a DMs perspective and a player perspective. The player sees what happens; the DM sees both what happens but also what could have happened. The DM sees what has been forgone to have that spell in the game.

I'd argue that this is a function of gameplay. There are options that are just better than others in terms of optimal play. For example, fireball. Fireballis the bar by which a lot of other damaging spells are judged; it's completely overpowered. That doesn't mean you should either nerf or nix fireball; just that you should work with your players as far as cool, interesting options for their players.

[jaappleton]

Healing Spirit is terrible because it trivializes healing. It can do so much as a 2nd level spell that there's virtually no reason to use another healing spell for quite a long time.

[TyGuy]

Treatmonks analysis is deeply flawed, because he thought it operated using the suggested nerfed rules.

Much of xge was not playtested. They have admitted it. Healing spirit is just the most obvious evidence

I'll forgive healing spirit. Poorly executed subclasses on the other hand. That was the main attraction. Total shame they weren't all polished and ready.

[Sparky McDibben]

That is, well, harsh. Even assuming Healing Spirit is broken (see Treatmonk's analysis of 2nd level spells for a contrary reasoning), it would only be true if you bought Xanathar for healing spirit alone.

Can you link Treantmonk's analysis? I'd be interested in seeing their analysis.

[qube]

Can you link Treantmonk's analysis? I'd be interested in seeing their analysis.

https://youtu.be/TsIOt4bLtDw?t=1062

[Sparky McDibben]

Healing Spirit is terrible because it trivializes healing. It can do so much as a 2nd level spell that there's virtually no reason to use another healing spell for quite a long time.

So I guess this is the crux of my problem - why is this bad? Long rests trivialize healing. So do the entire concept of hit points (unless you're using some of the optional DMG rules). I'm not bagging on 5e's rule design; I'm just asking why letting the PC's have access to healing is a problem. I have players that want to take a long rest (outside the dungeon) every time they have an encounter. I understand if you want your players to have to manage their resources carefully, but this seems a pretty straightforward exchange: spending a 2nd-level spell slot for hit points. There's a 3rd-level wizard spell that lets you take a 10 minute nap and have it count as a short rest (which is better than healing spirit due to resource reset). And yet this one spell needs to be nerfed? Seems very odd to me, and thus far all the strikes against it I've seen have been "it is a really good healing spell, and that's bull****."

Why?

[Sparky McDibben]

https://youtu.be/TsIOt4bLtDw?t=1062

Thanks a bunch!!!

[NaughtyTiger]

This is an excellent post, and a solid counterargument! From what I'm understanding, you believe this is resource-free healing. I disagree for reasons I have already enumerated, but let me address a slightly different cost: opportunity cost! If you're preparing healing spirit, that's a slot you might have held open for darkvision, lesser restoration, heat metal, hold person, pass without trace, and/or spike growth. For rangers it's much worse, given their low number of spells known.

Is healing spirit worth all that? Absolutely. But we ought to be aware there's a tradeoff. It might be an optimal tradeoff, but it's still a tradeoff. If the druid wants to be a healbot, then they aren't doing a lot of the other awesome things druids can do. Given that their spells only refresh on a long rest (unless you have Natural Recovery), you're forcing them to expend resources every time they cast this spell, even if you don't play the enemies smart. Even at level 20, a druid has only 18 spell slots they can use to cast healing spirit. So if you're running six encounters per day and the druid is healing spirit after all of them, they've reduced their spell slots by a third. So you can really run high-lethality, high-danger combats if this spell is in play. Or you can do a running series of battles. Or you can start using the exhaustion mechanic. Go nuts!

As to your question, "What does healing spirit add?" I would argue it doesn't add much. It's an option. It's a really good option, but it's an option, and the basic calculus remains unchanged. It is still better to prevent damage than to heal damage. Rather than take a tool away from my players, I would prefer to work with the tools I'm given if they start abusing it. I just talk to my players and say, "Look guys, this is a pretty good option. But you shouldn't expect that the bad guys are stupid. They're going to figure out what's up eventually, and then they'll adapt their tactics to reduce your advantage."

You listed a lot of good spells.
you emphasized and/or specifically OR, cuz you only need to replace one, and for a given DM/party the choice is easy
Now list the spells that the would not ever prepare again: goodberry, healing word, cure wounds.

moreover, healing spirit doesn't mean you CAN run harder battles, in means you MUST run harder battles.
bad guys don't "learn" from previous encounters, cuz the party killed them. so it is the DM "meta" teaching bad guys.

[Mellack]

Good God, man! Look, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So, I view random encounters from the purpose of those encounters. Mechanically, random encounters are there to make the world seem real - you don't want to go running around the forest because there are monsters in the forest! Owlbears, goblins, and oni, oh my! However, these are distinct from patrols. Patrols are sent out because someone wants to find out what's wandering around out there. If the party encounters them, the goal should be either to kill them all (and not let anyone get back to notify their boss), or avoid them entirely. If the party kills them all, then your party is now on the clock. That patrol will be missed, and in 1d6+2 hours (my personal rule of thumb; do what makes sense for you, obviously!) someone will come looking for them. That someone will likely be on guard, more heavily armed and armoured, and possibly with a spellcaster.

So healing spirit doesn't do anything a short rest couldn't in this situation! :)



Healing Spirit is much better, especially in this situation. It gives more healing than anything but high level characters spending all of their HD, and it does it in only one minute rather than an hour. Your situation actually increases the usefullness of that spell. Nothing else would come even close to doing the same for such a low cost.

[qube]

Thanks a bunch!!!

it boils down to what Pex pointed out


I would say the other healing spells are horrible, and it's about time there's a healing spell that actually heals.

Which is to say: people who think other healing spells are too weak, will like healing spirit.
But, this makes it inherently unbalanced.

To argue "I don't like where the balance point in D&D lies, and this fixes this"

Is to argue "this changed the balance point of D&D"

And that is to argue "this is unbalanced"

... yes, for you, you don't see that as a bad thing - but it's still, textbook, unbalanced.
For everyone who did like where the balance point was, it is a bad thing

[LudicSavant]

Can you link Treantmonk's analysis? I'd be interested in seeing their analysis.

Probably referring to the one here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsIOt4bLtDw

There are some things that this analysis seems to be leaving out, though.

First, he does not account for the fact that Healing Spirit can tick multiple times per turn in combat.

Second, he claims that you will never take enough damage to get the full healing value of the spell, so it's overkill. But that's still ultimately saying that it's a full out of combat heal.

Third, he only accounts for it being used by third level characters. Which is kiiinda relevant considering how much emphasis he puts on the second point in this list. It's also relevant because Healing Spirit upcasts exceptionally well (going from 2nd to 3rd level doubles its effectiveness, going to 4th level triples it, etc).

Fourth, he compares a process that takes a minute to an hour-long short rest and all resources regained from said rest (assuming it's the first short rest of the day).

Fifth, he does not account for features that synergize with it to make it much more effective.

[qube]

Third, he only accounts for it being used by third level characters. Which is kinda relevant considering how much emphasis he puts on the first point. It's also relevant because Healing Spirit upcasts particularly well.yeah, that was indeed a very poor point. (considering, eventually, many people go PAST 3rd level ... )

[stoutstien]

I'd argue that this is a function of gameplay. There are options that are just better than others in terms of optimal play. For example, fireball. Fireballis the bar by which a lot of other damaging spells are judged; it's completely overpowered. That doesn't mean you should either nerf or nix fireball; just that you should work with your players as far as cool, interesting options for their players.

Bumping HS to a 3rd lv spell would make a lot more sense. 3rd lv spells are exponentially more powerful than 2nd lv ones.

Now we are comparing it to erupting Earth or conjure animals.

[Sparky McDibben]

OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?

[MrStabby]

OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?

Yes.

Briefly. Till I fixed it.

[Sparky McDibben]

Yes.

Briefly. Till I fixed it.

OK, specifically what happened? Did it just let your players have more hit points?

[2D8HP]

You did not switch to just reading the srd?
Is there is stuff from the dmg or phb missing in the 5e srd?
Switching to SRD allows to play with no books at all which can be convenient. (in usual play you mostly do not need to read any rule until you have to roll for a fight)


My understanding is that some stuff is indeed missing from the SRD, but even if it wasn't I'm just more used to pages than pixels, plus I don't have a "tablet" I have a small "Smart phone" issued by my employer that reading PDF's is difficult on, and the "laptops" at home (which are used most every waking moment by my wife and son) are even heavier than the books, for the book abandoning scheme to work I'd have to buy a "tablet" as well as a data subscription, neither of which I'm ready to leap into next.

[stoutstien]

OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?

Yes. So badly my player(s) self banned it before I took the time to rework it.

[Contrast]

So I guess this is the crux of my problem - why is this bad? Long rests trivialize healing. So do the entire concept of hit points (unless you're using some of the optional DMG rules). I'm not bagging on 5e's rule design; I'm just asking why letting the PC's have access to healing is a problem. I have players that want to take a long rest (outside the dungeon) every time they have an encounter. I understand if you want your players to have to manage their resources carefully, but this seems a pretty straightforward exchange: spending a 2nd-level spell slot for hit points. There's a 3rd-level wizard spell that lets you take a 10 minute nap and have it count as a short rest (which is better than healing spirit due to resource reset). And yet this one spell needs to be nerfed? Seems very odd to me, and thus far all the strikes against it I've seen have been "it is a really good healing spell, and that's bull****."

Why?

Lets say your player came to you and asked you if they could learn this homebrew spell they found that was a level 1 spell and let another character gain the benefits of a long rest in 1 min. Or regain 100HP every round for 10 rounds.

I assume you would not let them learn such a spell.

So hyperbole aside I assume we agree that there are theoretical recovery spells that would be too powerful in terms of their impact on the game. The question then becomes how much is too much. For healing its generally more powerful the shorter the casting/application time of the spell, how efficiently the healing is delivered and amount of healing applied.

The issue people have with Healing Spirit is not that its providing healing. For me at least its not even that its providing good healing (most healing spells are rubbish, there's definitely room for more powerful healing spells). It's that the specifics regarding the amount of healing, the spell level and the time frame over which the healing is offered combine to make the spell not just powerful compared to other healing spells but just generally too powerful.

As you compared to Catnap - this is a higher spell level, only effects 3 people, requires them to be rendered unconscious for 10 mins (and if they wake up they gain no benefit), can only be used on a target once a day, requires them to spend HD to regain any HP (of which they only get back half on a long rest as a reminder). If anything Catnap undermines your argument that people are just hating on healing generally. I've never seen anyone moan about Catnap (or indeed any other healing spell except Healing Word and that's more related to jack-in-the-box style complaints about how healing works generally). The complaint is that Healing Spirit specifically is too efficient and as such specifically should be nerfed.

[Imbalance]

I keep seeing over and over that a great deal of hate springs from a general lack of imagination. This is a conjured ghost that hands out hp. Give it a personality, have it get fed up with playing nurse all the time, start tossing insults at the caster and they have to check concentration.

[qube]

OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?yup.

I have the ... privilege(?) ... to DM for a group I don't know the composition of at forehand. (we got a band of 40 people of which you master for some of them). If the players use prayer of healing cheese - I'm forced to skew my encounters to make them challenging again.

[Contrast]

I keep seeing over and over that a great deal of hate springs from a general lack of imagination. This is a conjured ghost that hands out hp. Give it a personality, have it get fed up with playing nurse all the time, start tossing insults at the caster and they have to check concentration.

See Grods Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518).

[stoutstien]

I keep seeing over and over that a great deal of hate springs from a general lack of imagination. This is a conjured ghost that hands out hp. Give it a personality, have it get fed up with playing nurse all the time, start tossing insults at the caster and they have to check concentration.

Trying to control player's power curve by undermining their spells is never a good idea.
Player: I use Lay on hands to heal X.

DM: nope your God isn't in the office today, try again later.

Player:.....

[strangebloke]

So I guess this is the crux of my problem - why is this bad? Long rests trivialize healing. So do the entire concept of hit points (unless you're using some of the optional DMG rules). I'm not bagging on 5e's rule design; I'm just asking why letting the PC's have access to healing is a problem. I have players that want to take a long rest (outside the dungeon) every time they have an encounter. I understand if you want your players to have to manage their resources carefully, but this seems a pretty straightforward exchange: spending a 2nd-level spell slot for hit points. There's a 3rd-level wizard spell that lets you take a 10 minute nap and have it count as a short rest (which is better than healing spirit due to resource reset). And yet this one spell needs to be nerfed? Seems very odd to me, and thus far all the strikes against it I've seen have been "it is a really good healing spell, and that's bull****."

Why?
You're not answering people's main complaint.

It isn't that its 'just' a good healing spell.

It's that it makes all other healing abilities (except healing word and the life cleric's CD) completely redundant. Building a specialized healer character (life cleric/lore bard) is pointless because the druid who doesn't specialize in healing already gives you way more healing than you need. Healing spirit makes tons of other spells pointless, and invalidates whole character concepts and a slew of builds. Thief with inspiring leader and healer feat? Redundant. Life Cleric/Lore Bard? Weaker than a straight druid in every single way, not even good at the thing it specializes in. Late-game paladin-exclusive healing abilities? Kinda meh.

This is on top of fundamentally changing the game in a way that isn't desireable for many players.

If having the players heal to full between each combat is desireable for your group, there were already rules for that. They're called the heroic rest rules, and they work very elegantly for that style of play.

it boils down to what Pex pointed out


I would say the other healing spells are horrible, and it's about time there's a healing spell that actually heals.

Which is to say: people who think other healing spells are too weak, will like healing spirit.
But, this makes it inherently unbalanced.

... yes, for you, you don't see that as a bad thing - but it's still, textbook, unbalanced.
For everyone who did like where the balance point was, it is a bad thing

But "healer" builds already could be really strong!

If you ever played with a life cleric/lore bard and saw them churn out 120 HP of healing with a third level spell, you would not call such a build weak. A straight life cleric pumping out their channel Divinity at key moments is not weak either. At high levels you can potentially heal 200 to 300 in a single burst spread out between 2 to 3 characters. Greatberry, when allowed, was extremely efficient out-of-combat. Even a simple rogue with inspiring leader and healer could really keep a party running longer than they had any right to. Healing people for 1d6 + 4 + their level + your level + CHA every time you have 11 minutes of downtime is no joke! At 10th level that'd be ~28 HP to the whole party between each fight for free.

But healing spirit is stronger than any of those, and requires no build resources. That's the problem.


Probably referring to the one here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsIOt4bLtDw

There are some things that this analysis seems to be leaving out, though.

First, he does not account for the fact that Healing Spirit can tick multiple times per turn in combat.

Second, he claims that you will never take enough damage to get the full healing value of the spell, so it's overkill. But that's still ultimately saying that it's a full out of combat heal.

Third, he only accounts for it being used by third level characters. Which is kiiinda relevant considering how much emphasis he puts on the second point in this list. It's also relevant because Healing Spirit upcasts exceptionally well (going from 2nd to 3rd level doubles its effectiveness, going to 4th level triples it, etc).

Fourth, he compares a process that takes a minute to an hour-long short rest and all resources regained from said rest (assuming it's the first short rest of the day).

Fifth, he does not account for features that synergize with it to make it much more effective.

Ugh, yeah. Much as I like the guy, these are some serious misses on his part. The spell is mediocre at level three. It's when you're at 10th level and you're upcasting it to 3rd and gaming it to get 2 pings a round that it gets out of control. 10d6 healing per person to a bunch of people who have ~25 HP at the cost of your highest level spell is indeed kinda eh. 40d6 healing per person from a 3rd level spell when you have 100+ HP and 5th level slots is something else entirely.

[Imbalance]

See Grods Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518).


Trying to control player's power curve by undermining their spells is never a good idea.
Player: I use Lay on hands to heal X.

DM: nope your God isn't in the office today, try again later.

Player:.....

If it looks more like control than opening up rp interaction, that seems like a narrow perspective to me.

[Sparky McDibben]

Trying to control player's power curve by undermining their spells is never a good idea.
Player: I use Lay on hands to heal X.

DM: nope your God isn't in the office today, try again later.

Player:.....

That's a good point - it's why I don't like nerfing spells. Now, that feeds into my personal brand of wacky high-power nonsense, but I try not to violate Grod's Law. I try to let the enemies react to the party's abilities. I don't see that as a problem, I see that as the world being reactive to the players.

And I honestly don't see the point of saying "if there was a homebrew 1st-level spell that provided full healing you wouldn't allow it." That's not an argument against healing spirit, that's an argument for a session zero.

This feels like we're talking about stakes. A lot of the people here have been using hit points as a substitute for stakes, e.g., "If the party doesn't have a hit point tax during the dungeon, then the dungeon feels less dangerous. And if the dungeon feels less dangerous, then the stakes are lower." I would argue there's lots of ways to raise the stakes - hit points are just one. Again, use exhaustion. Give the bad guys casters who have counterspell or dispel magic. Have NPCs who are dependent on the outcome of the dungeon. Use traps that have a narrative arc. And when it comes right down to it, accept that your players are exchanging a hit point tax for a spell slot tax.

I don't consider this adversarial DMing. I consider this doing my job: driving tension and conflict in the story, and letting my players use their resources to their fullest extent.

[NaughtyTiger]

OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?

yes. in an AL game where DMs are restricted by how much they can change a module
round 1
enemy dropped me.
the druid cast it as a bonus action (3rd level slot), ran through it (+2d6) and ducked behind total cover.
barb dragged me through it (+2d6 for him, +2d6 and up for me).
i was up, ran through it (+2d6), and did my action+bonus action thing
4th party member ran through it (+2d6) and cast her spell
round 2
enemy does it's thing (druid is behind cover)
druid uses her action to do something, bonus action to move the spirit to where we ran.
barb runs through it (+2d6) and attacks
i run through it (+2d6) and do my stuff
4th party member ran through it (+2d6) and does her stuff
round 3
enemy goes all out to get to druid and bust the spell.


so 16d6 over 2 turns for a 3rd level slot, and the DM declares he will way ramp up the difficulty if that spell shows up again.

[Contrast]

If it looks more like control than opening up rp interaction, that seems like a narrow perspective to me.

When I've seen Healing Spirit used it was described as a small fey animal which the party took turns petting.

You were suggesting making the spell unpleasant to use and requiring unprovoked concentration checks to maintain it in an effort to reduce power level/discourage players from using it.

If I misunderstood your intent with your suggestion I apologise but I'd stand by my response that it would be a bad idea to run the spell like that (a disgruntled fey is fine, a disgruntled fey who makes you make a concentration check each turn is not).

Edit -


And I honestly don't see the point of saying "if there was a homebrew 1st-level spell that provided full healing you wouldn't allow it." That's not an argument against healing spirit, that's an argument for a session zero.

I would encourage you to read the rest of my post in which I explain the point over the course of several paragraphs :smallbiggrin:

[NaughtyTiger]

When I've seen Healing Spirit used it was described as a small fey animal which the party took turns petting.

crap, that is adorable!

[strangebloke]

If it looks more like control than opening up rp interaction, that seems like a narrow perspective to me.

But the goal is control. That's what you're saying. "If a player is using an ability and its too strong, nerf it by completely rewriting how his ability works."

That's really annoying to a player. Honestly I'd probably leave the table over something like that. If my PC getting 'too strong' means that he'll insult me in character, not make my character work according to the rules, and then say "Oh I'm opening up roleplay opportunities" that's seriously obnoxious.

Be an adult. Talk to the player about it directly. If the spell is disruptive, rebalance it or ban it. Don't passive aggressively let him know that the universe hates his character for being overpowered.

[NaughtyTiger]

I would argue there's lots of ways to raise the stakes - hit points are just one. Again, use exhaustion. Give the bad guys casters who have counterspell or dispel magic. Have NPCs who are dependent on the outcome of the dungeon. Use traps that have a narrative arc. And when it comes right down to it, accept that your players are exchanging a hit point tax for a spell slot tax. .

so change the difficulty of the adventure to compensate for 1 spell.

yet i don't see: bob prepared fireball, i must populate the dungeon with demons and fire elementals.

[Sparky McDibben]

It isn't that its 'just' a good healing spell.

It's that it makes all other healing abilities (except healing word and the life cleric's CD) completely redundant. Building a specialized healer character (life cleric/lore bard) is pointless because the druid who doesn't specialize in healing already gives you way more healing than you need. Healing spirit makes tons of other spells pointless, and invalidates whole character concepts and a slew of builds. Thief with inspiring leader and healer feat? Redundant. Life Cleric/Lore Bard? Weaker than a straight druid in every single way, not even good at the thing it specializes in. Late-game paladin-exclusive healing abilities? Kinda meh.

OK, but if you're worried about the druid outshining someone else, that's a table conversation, not a ban-the-spell conversation.


This is on top of fundamentally changing the game in a way that isn't desireable for many players.

If having the players heal to full between each combat is desirable for your group, there were already rules for that. They're called the heroic rest rules, and they work very elegantly for that style of play.

OK, but that's kind of my point. Healing spirit doesn't do anything that rest mechanics can't. And again, that's a table conversation. If your table wants grittier realism, then they won't be taking this spell. In that case, everyone forgets it exists. And there have been quite a few comments on this thread by people that like the spell. I dunno guys, this doesn't seem broken to me. It seems like there are a lot of us lacking in imagination, but the spell seems fine. In any case, I think I have my answer.

Thanks.

[Imbalance]

But the goal is control. That's what you're saying. "If a player is using an ability and its too strong, nerf it by completely rewriting how his ability works."

That's really annoying to a player. Honestly I'd probably leave the table over something like that. If my PC getting 'too strong' means that he'll insult me in character, not make my character work according to the rules, and then say "Oh I'm opening up roleplay opportunities" that's seriously obnoxious.

Be an adult. Talk to the player about it directly. If the spell is disruptive, rebalance it or ban it. Don't passive aggressively let him know that the universe hates his character for being overpowered.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not calling for a nerf at all - I see this spell for what it is. I'm generalizing the reactions I see, as someone fairly new to this game, of folks who can't see past the rules text. I'm not a DM, but I can see the value of OOC conversations about how things are likely to play out (the fey creature idea is awesome, btw). The operative word is "play," so hold your lectures about being an adult.

[stoutstien]

That's a good point - it's why I don't like nerfing spells. Now, that feeds into my personal brand of wacky high-power nonsense, but I try not to violate Grod's Law. I try to let the enemies react to the party's abilities. I don't see that as a problem, I see that as the world being reactive to the players.

And I honestly don't see the point of saying "if there was a homebrew 1st-level spell that provided full healing you wouldn't allow it." That's not an argument against healing spirit, that's an argument for a session zero.

This feels like we're talking about stakes. A lot of the people here have been using hit points as a substitute for stakes, e.g., "If the party doesn't have a hit point tax during the dungeon, then the dungeon feels less dangerous. And if the dungeon feels less dangerous, then the stakes are lower." I would argue there's lots of ways to raise the stakes - hit points are just one. Again, use exhaustion. Give the bad guys casters who have counterspell or dispel magic. Have NPCs who are dependent on the outcome of the dungeon. Use traps that have a narrative arc. And when it comes right down to it, accept that your players are exchanging a hit point tax for a spell slot tax.

I don't consider this adversarial DMing. I consider this doing my job: driving tension and conflict in the story, and letting my players use their resources to their fullest extent.

There's a difference between having to increase the difficulty ratchet due to having a party of fairly optimized characters and having to to do the same for a single spell available at low lvs.
Increasing the difficulty to counter one mechanic narrows the margin for error to a point where the players could very easily perceive that the world is custom built to counter them. You remove the risk and the reward for their choices.

[sithlordnergal]

Personally, I really like the spell. However it can be abused for some ridiculous effects. For example, say you have a Circle of the Shepard 6 / Life Cleric 1 who casts this spell and has their Unicorn Spirit Aura up.

That second level spell will do 10d6+100 points of healing to a single person due to Disciple of Life adding 4 hp to the healing spell and the Unicorn aura adding the Druid's level to that healing every time a person steps through it. And that isn't even counting the fact that each time one person heals from Healing Spirit, the Druid can choose to heal everyone in the Unicorn Spirit's aura by a number equal to their level.

So in a party of even just three people, you get to add an extra 180 hp to the 100 before since every round three people are being healed by a second level spell, so each round you can give everyone, including yourself and whoever you healed, +6 hp per person who enters Healing Spirit.

That is equal to a long rest, and far better then a short rest, at the cost of 1 minute and a short rest ability. Of course the hp lowers to just 10d6+40 if you don't add in the Sheppard Druid's spirit aura, but still. 10d6+40 for 1 minute is gonna average about healing 75 hp, that's still more then enough to pick a party off their feet.

[NaughtyTiger]

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not calling for a nerf at all - I see this spell for what it is. I'm generalizing the reactions I see, as someone fairly new to this game, of folks who can't see past the rules text. I'm not a DM, but I can see the value of OOC conversations about how things are likely to play out (the fey creature idea is awesome, btw). The operative word is "play," so hold your lectures about being an adult.

do you need to "RP" any other spells to make them balance?
do you "RP" find familiar, fireball, conjure animals/fey/elementals?

changing the spell to limit its effectiveness is nerfing the spell by definition, regardless of how the narrative is portrayed. it's not wrong or cheating, it's DMing to run a balanced, fun, challenging game.

[LudicSavant]

But "healer" builds already could be really strong!

If you ever played with a life cleric/lore bard and saw them churn out 120 HP of healing with a third level spell, you would not call such a build weak. A straight life cleric pumping out their channel Divinity at key moments is not weak either. At high levels you can potentially heal 200 to 300 in a single burst spread out between 2 to 3 characters. Greatberry, when allowed, was extremely efficient out-of-combat. Even a simple rogue with inspiring leader and healer could really keep a party running longer than they had any right to. Healing people for 1d6 + 4 + their level + your level + CHA every time you have 11 minutes of downtime is no joke! At 10th level that'd be ~28 HP to the whole party between each fight for free.

This. There's a big difference between a Tempest Cleric who decides to cast Cure Wounds one day, and an actual healer build. The actual healer builds were already good at healing before Healing Spirit showed up.

[Man_Over_Game]

Healing Spirit trivializes a lot of content related to noncombat healing:

Goodberries
Cure Wounds
Hit Dice
Medicine checks
Song of Rest
Healer feat
Long Resting


All for the cost of a level 2 spell. Unlike these other resources, Healing Spirit is unlimited in how much healing it can provide (when something like Hit Dice regain at a rate of 50% of your maximum HP every day).

It's a lot like the Ranger's Favored Terrain, and it's effectively hated for the same reasons. It's a powerful ability that makes a lot of other content redundant or irrelevant.

Or, put in another way, it makes the game smaller, simpler and worse.

--------------

Consider making a simple 1d8, one handed Reach weapon with Finesse. It's not much better than the Rapier, and deals less than most other one-handed or Reach weapons. However, consider how much of the weapon list people would ignore. How many builds it would wash away.

Sure, you've added content, but you've erased more by doing so.

[strangebloke]

OK, but if you're worried about the druid outshining someone else, that's a table conversation, not a ban-the-spell conversation.

So what you're saying is, the spell is overpowered, makes the druid outshine others, and therefore I should talk to the druid about not using this spell to outshine others?

...Isn't that, like, the very definition of banning something?

Edit: I guess it isn't, but a ban would actually be kinder to the player. In the instance where the player "just shouldn't outshine others" he's already built his character. He might have wanted to play a druid because he knew that he'd be an overpowered healer for a low cost. Now, by asking him to play nice, I'm ruining his build.

If I had just banned it outright, he could have specced into some other good build.


OK, but that's kind of my point. Healing spirit doesn't do anything that rest mechanics can't. And again, that's a table conversation. If your table wants grittier realism, then they won't be taking this spell. In that case, everyone forgets it exists. And there have been quite a few comments on this thread by people that like the spell. I dunno guys, this doesn't seem broken to me. It seems like there are a lot of us lacking in imagination, but the spell seems fine. In any case, I think I have my answer.

Thanks.
Healing spirit does do things that the rest mechanics can't. If you don't see the utility of restoring more hp in a minute than a short rest heals in an hour, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't see the utility of healing as much in a minute as a long rest heals in 8 hours I really don't know what to tell you.

I don't appreciate being told that I lack imagination. In what way am I lacking imagination?

You say, "Other people say its fine," but that doesn't mean anything. Sure people say that. But they (and you) aren't actually addressing any of the complaints raised. HS does not break the game. It changes the game in a manner that is undesirable for many tables, and if the change is desirable, the spell should still be banned because it makes an entire archetype of build invalid.


Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not calling for a nerf at all - I see this spell for what it is. I'm generalizing the reactions I see, as someone fairly new to this game, of folks who can't see past the rules text. I'm not a DM, but I can see the value of OOC conversations about how things are likely to play out (the fey creature idea is awesome, btw). The operative word is "play," so hold your lectures about being an adult.

If you were just saying that "The spell is boring, here's a way to make it interesting," then sorry, I misunderstood you. But in my defense, you were answering a strawman. Nobody here has been arguing that the spell is bad because it's boring. Its a pretty interesting spell! The criticism that has been levied is that its overpowered.

So when you said you were responding to criticism, I assumed you were responding to actual criticism, and not some straw man you had in your head.

[Willie the Duck]

So I guess this is the crux of my problem - why is this bad? Long rests trivialize healing. So do the entire concept of hit points (unless you're using some of the optional DMG rules). I'm not bagging on 5e's rule design; I'm just asking why letting the PC's have access to healing is a problem. I have players that want to take a long rest (outside the dungeon) every time they have an encounter. I understand if you want your players to have to manage their resources carefully, but this seems a pretty straightforward exchange: spending a 2nd-level spell slot for hit points. There's a 3rd-level wizard spell that lets you take a 10 minute nap and have it count as a short rest (which is better than healing spirit due to resource reset). And yet this one spell needs to be nerfed? Seems very odd to me, and thus far all the strikes against it I've seen have been "it is a really good healing spell, and that's bull****."

Why?

Hi there,

First of all, you might have noticed that you are getting appreciable amount of pushback. You might get defensive about that, and I want to point out some ways in which it is reasonable that you are getting it.
Deliberately or not, you are telegraphing a type of behavior that can best be summed up as 'really wants to win'/'counterarguments are never enough.' I say this because your arguments keep changing, and are oftentimes inter-contradictory. The spell isn't a problem because your opponents can be prepared for it. Pushback. Okay, well now it is the opportunity cost. People are well aware of the opportunity cost? Well, okay, now it's still a healing spell so it can't be that big a deal. People point out that vastly increasing the value of healing magic is literally the problem? Okay, now the argument is that it is in fact a big deal, but but that big deal is a good thing (because it gives players a good option). I hope you understand why people might interpret this as you treating this thread more as a game to be won than a serious discussion. So I just want to double check-- this is your real argument, yes/no? It is a great healing magic, and it will be used, and it is a significant upgrade in what healing magic can do, but that's okay because you don't think that's a bad thing? Yes?

Alright, if so, let's address this point.

The entire concept of hit points makes healing and injury abstract, they do not trivialize them. In fact, they make them the most important thing in the game. Expendable/depletable resources are the bread and butter of this game. Given that this edition has done away with most Longer-than-LR-recharging effects like level loss or ability drain, the threat of hp loss (and what other expendable resources you are willing to dedicate to preventing or ameliorating that loss) is much-to-most of what the mechanical side of the game is. Making that more trivial (and we can debate just how much a 2nd level slot for ~35 hp/party member actually is) changes the game*. It makes post-fight recovery easier (again, we can debate how much). DMs might press harder or players might take more risks with this in their back pocket. Counter-intuitively, the likelihood of character death (or TPK) might go up, since people tend to expend until they hit adversity and a significant intermediary adversity (struggling to keep hp near max between combats) has been reduced. This is a reasonable concern to weigh in the discussion of whether or not the addition of this spell (as written) is a net positive to the game.
*for anyone where recovery is an issue. If this is already not an issue for your games, then this of course will not change it.

As to the catnap spell, I just don't see it as that comparable. It does very different things. Short rests, in and of themselves, don't do any particular thing. If you have a bunch of SR-recharging abilities, HD to spend, or even cool SR-healing abilities like Healer feat or Inspiring Leader (pseudo-healing for that one, I guess), then by all means it too is a good resource to put into the discussion. I just don't see why they are so directly comparable.

[NaughtyTiger]

Healing spirit does do things that the rest mechanics can't. If you don't see the utility of restoring more hp in a minute than a short rest heals in an hour, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't see the utility of healing as much in a minute as a long rest heals in 8 hours I really don't know what to tell you.

as another example, Short Rest doesn't let you heal 8d6 in 2 rounds of combat.


snip
wow. this was polite and well done. i need to do this better.

[qube]

I don't consider this adversarial DMing. I consider this doing my jobthe thing is, and this is something very important in discussions about balance, that's a flawed reasoning. Now you're arguing "it's not broken because it's fixable".

You can put a bucket under a leaking faucet - but that doesn't mean it isn't leaking.

I've been DMming since before D&D 3.5. I can work around 4th levels that deal around 1000-5000d6 in a 9 mile radius (google Locate City Bomb), and mind you, 3.5's balance isn't that different from 5E that thousands of d6s mean anything else there then it does in 5E. Can I work around it? Yes, I can. Does that mean a 4th level spell should be able to do that? I hope you can agree, no. It really shouldn't.



This feels like we're talking about stakes. A lot of the people here have been using hit points as a substitute for stakes, e.g., "If the party doesn't have a hit point tax during the dungeon, then the dungeon feels less dangerous. And if the dungeon feels less dangerous, then the stakes are lower." I would argue there's lots of ways to raise the stakes - hit points are just one. Again, use exhaustion. Give the bad guys casters who have counterspell or dispel magic. Have NPCs who are dependent on the outcome of the dungeon. Use traps that have a narrative arc. And when it comes right down to it, accept that your players are exchanging a hit point tax for a spell slot tax.The bolded is true.
And it is also the moment you admit that, Healing Spirit is broken because Yes. There ARE other ways to raise takes - but it SHOUDN'T come to that.


Sure, you've added content, but you've erased more by doing so.great quote.

[Pex]

Why is it a bad thing that a non-magical character specializing in healing is as good as a magical character who is not specialized in healing?

It's not, but the point is if you're going to complain Healing Spirit is more powerful than the established healing spells I'm saying Healing Spirit is fine and it's the established healing spells that are bad.

[strangebloke]

Yup, one of 5E's drawbacks for me is every character has some type of healing and/or damage mitigation. 0 HP doesn't mean a lot anymore. Characters get so many HP, especially at higher levels. And should someone fail their death saving throws, they're pretty easy to bring back.

Adventures in Middle Earth 5E is looking better all the time...

*Whispers*: Gritty realism rules


It's not, but the point is if you're going to complain Healing Spirit is more powerful than the established healing spells I'm saying Healing Spirit is fine and it's the established healing spells that are bad.

Compared to what? Nearly all of them are useful spells worth preparing.

They're more a last resort than anything else, granted. A bard who just casts cure wounds over over isn't going to be very effective...

But that's why you need to specialize. Take a level of life cleric. Use magical secrets to steal aura of vitality. Play a grave cleric to bring an unconscious ally back to full with one spell. Cast beacon of hope to make your healing spells worth casting in combat. Play a glamor bard to heal the whole party at once and move them.

[Sigreid]

To answer the question in the title, everyone doesn't hate healing spirit. The thing is, people tend to talk about what they feel strongly about on the internet and people feel more strongly about things they dont like than most of the things they do.

[Misterwhisper]

It's not, but the point is if you're going to complain Healing Spirit is more powerful than the established healing spells I'm saying Healing Spirit is fine and it's the established healing spells that are bad.

I think the issues is actually how the rules on death work.

If I am a level 8 character and I have 12 HP and there is no difference really between if I get hit for 13 or if I get hit for 60, there is a problem.
Getting rid of negative HP was a mistake, and a huge one.
Nobody is really in any danger until they are already unconscious.

In 3.0/3.5/PF if I am at 12 HP I am going to find some healing, go full defense or start planning a new character unless the enemy is one hit from dead.

In 5e, who cares. Even if it hits me again I am just unconscious no matter how hard it hit me unless it is WAY higher than anything normal. I also have at least a few rounds to go before I am dead dead, and even if all else fails being ressed is not that big of a problem.

They made 5e play more like a video game than a story.

[Pex]

If a DM has to rebalance the entire campaign due to a single spell or ablity something is wrong. Image if that every new adventure book has a sub section with alternative encounters if the party has access to healing Spirit.

I could say the problem is with the DM not being able to handle the party at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. In the games I play not one party uses Healing Spirit yet we each manage to heal up after combat. HD spending when resting, Healer feat, Cure Wounds, Prayer of Healing, Lay on Hands, healing potions. We have various means to do this. If we did have Healing Spirit it would just be one more way to do it, and at best it saves us some healing potions and HD spending. My Sorcerer's Inspiring Leadership alone saved party members from dying because those temporary hit points meant when they did eventually drop in a really tough fight they weren't heavy into negatives.

[Imbalance]

In an effort to avoid being overly argumentative, I want to understand if what I see is really a problem of creative dissonance at large, or if my limited experience with D&D is skewing my perspective. In a parallel effort to remain brief, I won't go into detail about my other gaming experience, so I'll only qualify it anecdotally as..."deep."


The entire concept of hit points makes healing and injury abstract, they do not trivialize them. In fact, they make them the most important thing in the game

This, I think, highlights where my impressions differ most. I would agree that the abstract places importance on hp, but I would clarify the second statement:

Hit points are the most important quantity for combat, but very much reduced in importance for exploration and socialization.

Am I wrong?

[Willie the Duck]

To answer the question in the title, everyone doesn't hate healing spirit. The thing is, people tend to talk about what they feel strongly about on the internet and people feel more strongly about things they dont like than most of the things they do.

This is also a good point. Sometimes things get a lot of digital ink not because of their total intensity of impact on the game, so much as them hitting people's sensibilities the wrong way. I think Healing Spirit is one of those cases. In no small part because it seems* as though the out of combat 'every player takes their turn on their initiative every round running through the healing square' was an unintended rules confluence incentivizing some very meta behavior.
*'Seems' because we can't know for sure the intended use.

It is not unlike one handed Quarterstaves with shields and PoleArm Master feat (with or without Shillelagh spell or dueling fighting style) -- the overpoweredness of the build* is not commensurate to many peoples' dislike of the combo. The overarching issue is that it feels like a rules accident, incentivizing behavior outside what people really wanted their D&D games to look like.
*If it exists at all, which is debated, making it a good parallel to this situation


This, I think, highlights where my impressions differ most. I would agree that the abstract places importance on hp, but I would clarify the second statement:

Hit points are the most important quantity for combat, but very much reduced in importance for exploration and socialization.

Am I wrong?

Well, look at what else I wrote:

Given that this edition has done away with most Longer-than-LR-recharging effects like level loss or ability drain, the threat of hp loss (and what other expendable resources you are willing to dedicate to preventing or ameliorating that loss) is much-to-most of what the mechanical side of the game is

I specifically predicated my point exclusively on the part of the game dealing with mechanics. So, in my mind, I clarified in the post you are quoting that I was speaking about a subset of the game as a whole. Mind you, the exploration and social parts of the game do intersect with the mechanics (particularly through the skill system, but also spells). We can go round the flagpole a few times on that distinction if you consider it important, but I'm not sure we're substantively disagreeing on anything.

[stoutstien]

I could say the problem is with the DM not being able to handle the party at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. In the games I play not one party uses Healing Spirit yet we each manage to heal up after combat. HD spending when resting, Healer feat, Cure Wounds, Prayer of Healing, Lay on Hands, healing potions. We have various means to do this. If we did have Healing Spirit it would just be one more way to do it, and at best it saves us some healing potions and HD spending. My Sorcerer's Inspiring Leadership alone saved party members from dying because those temporary hit points meant when they did eventually drop in a really tough fight they weren't heavy into negatives.
I'm glad you brought up that list. other than expiring leader which is temporary hit points which is a whole other ballgame, healing Spirit literally does it better than all of those other things combined. It heals more than lay on hands, faster than prayer of healing, and isn't DM dependent like a short rest can be.
And all those feat/class feature options have an opportunity cost compared to healing Spirit which is just on a prepared spellcasters list and can just pick it up.
This isn't even factoring in if that player wants to capitalize on healing spirit.

personally I like how there's a numerous ways for players to heal that way no individual feels like they have to be the party healer. Now the responsibilities is spread out. Now my tables don't tend to gravitate towards yo-yo healing strategies so that isn't an issue for me personally but I can see how it can become an issue.

Now if it was a ranger only spell......

[Spiritchaser]

I LIKE healing spirit, I just don’t think it fits all that well.

Having everyone enter an encounter with full, or nearly full HP isn’t a problem. As a player and as a DM I prefer it.

What is a problem is that healing spirit is only available to a limited number of characters. This one spell adds a very significant amount of value to Druids, and Rangers, neither of which were bad. The motivation to have a character like this on a team is strong, and some optimized warlock X druid 3 life cleric 1 sorcerer (?) who can cast an extended healing spirit with short rest slots could even make a gritty realism campaign run fairly smoothly, at least from a HP point of view.

What is also a problem is that if we were to add similar levels of healing power to other classes, we limit the power of the healer-less party.

Notwithstanding healing spirit and dedicated aura of vitality builds, out of combat healing in 5e is actually quite weak. I don’t generally consider this to be a good thing, but despite my dislike, it does have a strong positive benefit. A party with no, or limited healing does not actually lose out all that badly as compared to a party with significant healing.

Edit: now I wonder what that Druidclericsorlock would look like...

[Xetheral]

This is also a good point. Sometimes things get a lot of digital ink not because of their total intensity of impact on the game, so much as them hitting people's sensibilities the wrong way. I think Healing Spirit is one of those cases. In no small part because it seems* as though the out of combat 'every player takes their turn on their initiative every round running through the healing square' was an unintended rules confluence incentivizing some very meta behavior.
*'Seems' because we can't know for sure the intended use.

This is my main objection. I'd object less (although I'd probably still object) to a second-level spell that simply healed the whole party to full over a minute than I do to a conga-line-healing-dance after every combat. That's just too ridiculous for the tone of my game.

[DrLoveMonkey]

OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything?

I’ll chime in here and say that that I’ve had to. I was DMing a game where the ranger was way outhealing the bard because she didn’t take Healing Spirit as one of her Magical Secrets.

Also that particular section of the campaign was supposed to be a pretty desperate and careful rationing of resources as they were flung deep into the wilderness and under constant threats and attacks, like so many that the fact that you only get half your HD back on a long rest mattered. If you spent all your HD the previous day, you can count on half that the next day.

Unfortunately one or two minutes and a few low level ranger spell slots got everyone back to full almost instantly after combat was over, which also meant that getting HD back on a long rest was nearly pointless because nobody really spent any in the first place.

[Puh Laden]

I think healing spirit would be better if it was a spirit that just loved combat and wanted it to see it continue for as long as possible, so it only shows up when initiative is rolled in a combat (and disappears once it's over) and it heals any creature (not just creatures of the druid's choice) that approaches it. Though that'd require a total rewrite. You'd have to determine whether it heals at the start or end of a creatures' turn, whether the druid still controls the positioning of the spirit, or if it moves randomly or not at all unless a bonus action is spent directing it, etc. Dropping concentration on purpose to prevent enemies from healing once your allies are healed could be a tactic.

[Theodoxus]

Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.

Didn't get any further into the thread than here - so if this has already been mentioned, I apologize. If this is your opinion, then I really want to know what you think about Prayer of Healing. It does far less, takes 10x as long to cast and is "the same power level."

That's my primary "beef" with Healing Spirit. It's on two caster lists who aren't known for their healing strength (outside of a niche multiclass with Life cleric). Out of combat, it outshines any healing outside of Mass Heal. In combat, it outshines Aura of Vitality, a level 3 Paladin spell that only Lore bards can access earlier.

Is it OP? No. But not the point. It shatter expected returns for a 2nd level spell, and scales well when upcast.

[KorvinStarmast]

OK, let me ask everyone this - has anyone actually been in a game (not your friend's game, not your cousin's game, but YOUR game) where this actually unbalanced everything? Nope.
The entire concept of hit points makes healing and injury abstract, they do not trivialize them.
In fact, they make them the most important thing in the game.
Expendable/depletable resources are the bread and butter of this game.
Given that this edition has done away with most Longer-than-LR-recharging effects like level loss or ability drain, the threat of hp loss (and what other expendable resources you are willing to dedicate to preventing or ameliorating that loss) is much-to-most of what the mechanical side of the game is.
Making that more trivial (and we can debate just how much a 2nd level slot for ~35 hp/party member actually is) changes the game*.
It makes post-fight recovery easier (again, we can debate how much).
DMs might press harder or players might take more risks with this in their back pocket.
Counter-intuitively, the likelihood of character death (or TPK) might go up, since people tend to expend until they hit adversity and a significant intermediary adversity (struggling to keep hp near max between combats) has been reduced.

As to the catnap spell, I just don't see it as that comparable. It does very different things. Short rests, in and of themselves, don't do any particular thing. If you have a bunch of SR-recharging abilities, HD to spend, or even cool SR-healing abilities like Healer feat or Inspiring Leader (pseudo-healing for that one, I guess), then by all means it too is a good resource to put into the discussion. I just don't see why they are so directly comparable. Nice post, all around. (As usual).

as another example, Short Rest doesn't let you heal 8d6 in 2 rounds of combat. Nor does Healing Word based on how our DM applies it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23846527&postcount=45).

wow. this was polite and well done. i need to do this better. Yeah, it was, we could all try to be a little more Ducklike. :smallbiggrin:

[Merudo]

You can use it outside of combat and have every member of your party be healed by 10d6 HP each for the low price of a minute of spare time and a level 2 spell slot.


Out of combat, every character gets 10d6 healing for a 2nd level spell.

In combat, you can get 5d6 over 2 rounds to 2-3 characters for a 2nd level spell. AND every one still gets their action. even the caster.


So 10d6 for one level 2 spell slot.

Where does the "10d6" number come from?

My understanding is that the minimum number is 20d6, by having pairs of character drag each other through the effect.

In practice the number can be even higher; for example if a PC is heavily damaged and belongs to a party of four, all 3 other players can push/pull said PC through the effect for 40d6 healing to that PC.

And if you use minions, you can easily fully heal any character in the party.

[JackPhoenix]

You did not switch to just reading the srd?
Is there is stuff from the dmg or phb missing in the 5e srd?
Switching to SRD allows to play with no books at all which can be convenient. (in usual play you mostly do not need to read any rule until you have to roll for a fight)

Yes. Majority of content, in fact. SRD has one subclass for every class, no feats, no backgrounds, lot of spells missing....

[Chronos]

There is in fact something to be said for a game where everyone is at full HP at the start of every combat. And if you like that style of game, that's fine. But Healing Spirit is a bad way to get that sort of game, because most parties won't have access to it. It means that you're playing a game where healing is cheap and easy if you have a druid, but difficult if you're not. If you really want that style of game (and again, there's nothing wrong if you do), then the proper way to do it is just to do it: Declare that everyone can get all of their HP back by just catching their breath for a minute.

Plus, of course, there's the fact that not everyone wants that style of game (and that's fine, too). But the existence of Healing Spirit together with a character who can cast it forces the game into that mode anyway.

[Sigreid]

There is in fact something to be said for a game where everyone is at full HP at the start of every combat. And if you like that style of game, that's fine. But Healing Spirit is a bad way to get that sort of game, because most parties won't have access to it. It means that you're playing a game where healing is cheap and easy if you have a druid, but difficult if you're not. If you really want that style of game (and again, there's nothing wrong if you do), then the proper way to do it is just to do it: Declare that everyone can get all of their HP back by just catching their breath for a minute.

Plus, of course, there's the fact that not everyone wants that style of game (and that's fine, too). But the existence of Healing Spirit together with a character who can cast it forces the game into that mode anyway.

I'd say it's just like anything else in the game, you makes your choices and takes your chances.

[Torpin]

I actually have more of an issue of when upscaling it to a high level spell slot the amount of encounters you can trivialize. 2 weeks ago i was in session playing a bard which had it through magic secret, we were level 13 fighting an adult blue dragon just as my bonus action i was able to position the spirit to usually get 3 out of 5 players and it was healing for 6d6 every round of combat. no one ended any turn below half health... it felt anticlimatic

[Mikal]

"Healer" I found among the Feats in the PHB, and "Healing Word" I found among the Spells, but "Healing Spirit"?

Which book is it in?

Well whichever it's in (Xanthar's?, SCAG?) the strike against it is that my backpack is heavy enough with just the PHB and DMG, and one more is even more pain on my shoulders.

There’s this wonderful thing called dndbeyond that uses this magical technology called the internet and PDFs. You can literally have all those books and more in your phone! Shocking, I know

[Kane0]

There’s this wonderful thing called dndbeyond that uses this magical technology called the internet and PDFs. You can literally have all those books and more in your phone! Shocking, I know

The condescension isn't necessary mate.

[Mikal]

The condescension isn't necessary mate.

Neither are toting around books in a backpack in 2019.

[MeeposFire]

Neither are toting around books in a backpack in 2019.

Sadly I actually would rather lug the books digital just does not do it for me.

[Mikal]

Sadly I actually would rather lug the books digital just does not do it for me.
I’m the other way. Easy search options, updatable, with the fact I literally have over 1000 books on my devices? Physical copies these days are for the bookshelf to look pretty. My reading copies of near everything are on digital.

[Captain Panda]

So, how many enemies are already level 3 or higher Druids? Or level 6 (I think) or higher Rangers?

Because otherwise, they don't have access to the spell.


NPCs and monsters are not bound to the spell lists the players use.

[Pex]

There is in fact something to be said for a game where everyone is at full HP at the start of every combat. And if you like that style of game, that's fine. But Healing Spirit is a bad way to get that sort of game, because most parties won't have access to it. It means that you're playing a game where healing is cheap and easy if you have a druid, but difficult if you're not. If you really want that style of game (and again, there's nothing wrong if you do), then the proper way to do it is just to do it: Declare that everyone can get all of their HP back by just catching their breath for a minute.

Plus, of course, there's the fact that not everyone wants that style of game (and that's fine, too). But the existence of Healing Spirit together with a character who can cast it forces the game into that mode anyway.

For my groups without a druid, and one with a druid who doesn't use the spell, healing to full HP out of combat is super easy barely an inconvenience. In an old group I played a Light cleric and only ever cast one healing spell, Cure Wounds, once at first level in the first session. Afterwards we got by on short rest HD spending and healing potions. When I took Healer feat at 4th level we started to have a surplus of healing potions. The campaign ended at 9th level. With my current groups, depending on the group, there's Lay On Hands, Healer feat, players willing to cast Cure Wounds above 1st level, Prayer of Healing, healing potions, short rest HD spending, Inspiring Leader feat. 5E does not lack for sources of healing even if I personally think the healing spells are garbage. I only like Healing Word in the sense it stops a PC from having to make death saves and the caster can still do something else, even if only a Cantrip. Having Healing Spirit is great, but you aren't the Suck without it now that it exists.

[Particle_Man]

NPCs and monsters are not bound to the spell lists the players use.

Ok but now we are getting away from "The DM plays the monsters and npcs smart and reacting to the PC strategy" and towards "The DM is metagaming to counter the healing spirit spell".

[qube]

It's not, but the point is if you're going to complain Healing Spirit is more powerful than the established healing spells I'm saying Healing Spirit is fine and it's the established healing spells that are bad.

I could say the problem is with the DM not being able to handle the party at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day.

If I may note something: it's not really true that a spell is good or bad depending on how a DM handles it. For example, a 40d6 fireball isn't good or bad in a void. A 40d6 fireball is good if other 3rd level spells only do 10d6; it's bad when other 3rd level spells do 100d6.

You can argue that you don't like where the game designers put the point of balance on healing - but that doesn't mean they are "bad".


The campaign ended at 9th level.Perhaps that's the problem, becasue all other effects have diminishing return.
There are only so much ASI slots you have. A healing feat instead +2 on a stat, or, for example, GWM.
... But a 2nd level spell slot, at levels where your characters can have to heal over 140 hp after a combat ... well, that's practically nothing.



Where does the "10d6" number come from?

My understanding is that the minimum number is 20d6, by having pairs of character drag each other through the effect.

In practice the number can be even higher; for example if a PC is heavily damaged and belongs to a party of four, all 3 other players can push/pull said PC through the effect for 40d6 healing to that PC.

And if you use minions, you can easily fully heal any character in the party.:smallconfused: the 10d6 obviously comes from characters moving independantly of each other. "allowing" (quoted as it would be strange not to allow this) people to drag each other, is just another level of cheese ... which, frankly shouldn't be neccecairy though more and more visible how insanly broken it is.

At 20d6 ... well we're talking a 2nd level spell which gives each party member the same amount of healing as the single target, 6th level spell heal spell.
At 40d6 ... average 140 per person ... well ... we're getting in the realm of 9th level spells (mass heal spell heals 700 hp divided how you want)

[OldTrees1]

For my groups without a druid, and one with a druid who doesn't use the spell, healing to full HP out of combat is super easy barely an inconvenience. In an old group I played a Light cleric and only ever cast one healing spell, Cure Wounds, once at first level in the first session. Afterwards we got by on short rest HD spending and healing potions. When I took Healer feat at 4th level we started to have a surplus of healing potions. The campaign ended at 9th level. With my current groups, depending on the group, there's Lay On Hands, Healer feat, players willing to cast Cure Wounds above 1st level, Prayer of Healing, healing potions, short rest HD spending, Inspiring Leader feat. 5E does not lack for sources of healing even if I personally think the healing spells are garbage. I only like Healing Word in the sense it stops a PC from having to make death saves and the caster can still do something else, even if only a Cantrip. Having Healing Spirit is great, but you aren't the Suck without it now that it exists.

Did you read my numerical analysis of the Healing feats vs the Good Healing spells vs Healing Spirit? It was a direct reply to you on page 2. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23846162&postcount=40)

In our group we have relied on a Paladin with Inspiring Leader & Aura of Vitality as our main source of healing. At the end of a long day our health is starting to run low. However for the majority of the day the party was at full health while the healing resources slowly depleted. That seems expected and works well for our group.

From the numbers you can see how much bigger Healing Spirit is compared to the Strong healing options (Healer Feat, Inspiring Leader, Prayer of Healing, Aura of Vitality). So if the Healer feat is too weak for your group, then Healing Spirit makes sense. However if the Healer feat is balanced for a group, then that group might feel Healin Spirit is OP for their group (plenty of examples in this thread).

[Witty Username]

Can you link Treantmonk's analysis? I'd be interested in seeing their analysis.

I got you
2nd Level Spells: Overrated/Underrated/Best/Worst (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsIOt4bLtDw&t=40s)

17:41 for healing spirit
edit: sorry didn't see other post on the first pass.

[DwarfDM]

You can use it outside of combat and have every member of your party be healed by 10d6 HP each for the low price of a minute of spare time and a level 2 spell slot.

I nerfed it to being able to heal only 1 creature per round.

[2D8HP]

There’s this wonderful thing called dndbeyond....


Don't you have to pay a subscription to use that?

[Mikal]

Don't you have to pay a subscription to use that?

If you want to use certain tools yeah but you can make one time purchases of the books themselves.

[Willie the Duck]

Don't you have to pay a subscription to use that?

I believe you have to buy the books digitally (which is a perfectly fine deal... if you don't already have them).

Regardless, you do you. You've got the aging crank, 'I don't need these flippin' add-ons!' thing going. Very Mornardian (but with less poop jokes). It's just not a stellar critique of spell or ability X, Y, or Z that you personally don't have access to it based on the decisions you've made.

[Boci]

I believe you have to buy the books digitally (which is a perfectly fine deal... if you don't already have them).

Regardless, you do you. You've got the aging crank, 'I don't need these flippin' add-ons!' thing going. Very Mornardian (but with less poop jokes). It's just not a stellar critique of spell or ability X, Y, or Z that you personally don't have access to it based on the decisions you've made.

"It's not core, therefor unlikely to feature in my games" is a perfectly stellar critique. Not everyone is required to use splat.

[KorvinStarmast]

Neither are toting around books in a backpack in 2019. DnDbeyond costs money, and some people remember the cluster frack that was the electronic resources model in 4e. You being rude to 2D8HP was uncalled for.
"It's not core, therefor unlikely to feature in my games" is a perfectly stellar critique. Not everyone is required to use splat. Ah, someone who is not telling someone how to have fun. *tips cap to Boci* Well done.

[druid91]

How would your monsters know which character is using the spell? Have they been tracking the party’s health the whole time and noticing what is going on?

Because they saw the one who cast the spell and are familiar with what clerics are.

Spellcasting is rarely subtle.

[Aett_Thorn]

Because they saw the one who cast the spell and are familiar with what clerics are.

Spellcasting is rarely subtle.

And how would this affect the out-of-combat usage of this spell, where the problem usually lies?

Most people tend not to have a problem with the spell in combat. It’s the “whole party heal one minute after combat” thing that’s the problem. And if you’ve just killed all of the monsters and there’s nobody around, how are monsters adjusting to counter a strategy they aren’t aware of?


Basically, I was trying to point out that the person that I was replying to was meta-gaming their monsters to know more than they should about the party, just because of a single spell, which probably means that the spell isn’t balanced right.

[noob]

Where does the "10d6" number come from?

My understanding is that the minimum number is 20d6, by having pairs of character drag each other through the effect.

In practice the number can be even higher; for example if a PC is heavily damaged and belongs to a party of four, all 3 other players can push/pull said PC through the effect for 40d6 healing to that PC.

And if you use minions, you can easily fully heal any character in the party.

wait so you are not a lone druid going around and murderkilling everything?


My understanding is that some stuff is indeed missing from the SRD, but even if it wasn't I'm just more used to pages than pixels, plus I don't have a "tablet" I have a small "Smart phone" issued by my employer that reading PDF's is difficult on, and the "laptops" at home (which are used most every waking moment by my wife and son) are even heavier than the books, for the book abandoning scheme to work I'd have to buy a "tablet" as well as a data subscription, neither of which I'm ready to leap into next.

I guess you are not of those people which moves randomly and each time one of those reach a destination they find a bunch of computer already here.
Well I am probably not a good example in how stationary computer access works.

[NaughtyTiger]

And how would this affect the out-of-combat usage of this spell, where the problem usually lies?
Most people tend not to have a problem with the spell in combat.

Ha, I am flipped. I don't care about out of combat healing. I find the in-combat healing to be most destructive.

[Jophiel]

Because they saw the one who cast the spell and are familiar with what clerics are.
Intelligent monsters familiar with spell casting, perhaps. Everything from giant ants to zombies to shambling mounds to brown bears to hippogriffs to purple worms to bulettes aren't going to qualify.

[noob]

Intelligent monsters familiar with spell casting, perhaps. Everything from giant ants to zombies to shambling mounds to brown bears to hippogriffs to purple worms to bulettes aren't going to qualify.

only brown bears would believe healing spirit was cast by a cleric: it is a druid spell.

[Lyracian]

So I don't know if you guys heard, but

"If healing spirit has felt too effective in your game, try this house rule, which holds the spell to our expectations for it: the spell ends once the spirit has restored hit points a number of times equal to twice your spellcasting ability modifier (minimum of once)" - Jeremy Crawford

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/935992604080013312?lang=en
It is what I will use. Kind of waiting for it to be official errata, and maybe a second printing, before getting the book.

[MaxWilson]

Ha, I am flipped. I don't care about out of combat healing. I find the in-combat healing to be most destructive.

You can use Healing Spirit for both. Activate it in-combat as a damage mitigator/pop-up healer, and then leave it running after combat until everyone is topped off.

[Pex]

If I may note something: it's not really true that a spell is good or bad depending on how a DM handles it. For example, a 40d6 fireball isn't good or bad in a void. A 40d6 fireball is good if other 3rd level spells only do 10d6; it's bad when other 3rd level spells do 100d6.

You can argue that you don't like where the game designers put the point of balance on healing - but that doesn't mean they are "bad".

Perhaps that's the problem, becasue all other effects have diminishing return.
There are only so much ASI slots you have. A healing feat instead +2 on a stat, or, for example, GWM.
... But a 2nd level spell slot, at levels where your characters can have to heal over 140 hp after a combat ... well, that's practically nothing.


:smallconfused: the 10d6 obviously comes from characters moving independantly of each other. "allowing" (quoted as it would be strange not to allow this) people to drag each other, is just another level of cheese ... which, frankly shouldn't be neccecairy though more and more visible how insanly broken it is.

At 20d6 ... well we're talking a 2nd level spell which gives each party member the same amount of healing as the single target, 6th level spell heal spell.
At 40d6 ... average 140 per person ... well ... we're getting in the realm of 9th level spells (mass heal spell heals 700 hp divided how you want)

The campaign ended because of Real Life interference. It had nothing to do with the game itself.

It's ok to have a difference of opinion to say the established healing spells are fine and Healing Spirit is too much for the level. I'm willing to agree to disagree on that, but I maintain my position that the established healing spells aren't adequate so if Healing Spirit heals more than they do I count it as a feature not a bug. That's one side of the argument.

The other side is to say it's bad form that a party can heal up to full after a combat. That's a position I don't agree to disagree. PCs can do it already without Healing Spirit. If the party wants to spend resources on healing it's not for the DM to yell at the players for it, figuratively speaking.

[NaughtyTiger]

You can use Healing Spirit for both. Activate it in-combat as a damage mitigator/pop-up healer, and then leave it running after combat until everyone is topped off.

uh, thanks?

[stoutstien]

uh, thanks?
I think the statement is question is showing it can do both great on combat healing and then insane out of combat healing with a single casting.

[Witty Username]

So, I have not seen healing spirit in a game proper, I have a druid friend in one game but we haven't taken much damage so far, in the use one or two healing words range, or the day is over and we sleep it off.

however, I do not entirely understand the argument for in-combat healing spirit(HS). Each character can only get the benefits once per turn which is 1d6 healing.
Usually, from my experience most encounters will end up with a front line(one to two chars) and a back line(everyone else) and the front line will be the ones taking damage. 1d6 for a character being focused by multiple enemies or being targeted by a big one is not that much. Also it uses concentration, so it is the spell your Druid/Ranger is concentrating on. No hunter's marks, flaming shperes, or Moonbeams (all of which are good spells for ending fights faster and easier). Also, HS or any heal spell is an iffy spell to start a fight on, cause if characters are not damaged yet it doesn't do anything.
This spell does get better if the entire party is taking damage and AOE solutions are not working, but that concentration is likely to be broken in such situations.
I think that the potential healing is high, but I am not sure I like it tactically.

for the out of combat, HS is good although it does need a minute, and that does matter in a time crunch, and if you don't have a time crunch short rest may serve your needs better. Druid:"HS is a good as a short rest" Warlock:(Gives the Druid a dirty look).

Overall, I do not hate the spell, the best healing spell in the game is probably Pass Without Trace:smallwink:

[2D8HP]

If you want to use certain tools yeah but you can make one time purchases of the books themselves.


I believe you have to buy the books digitally (which is a perfectly fine deal... if you don't already have them)....


That actually sounds pretty good, not a subscription, but a one time purchase of a tablet and some digital "copies" (not sure how those work) if it's all still readable and also weighs less.


DnDbeyond costs money, and some people remember the cluster frack that was the electronic resources model in 4e...


Thank you KorvimStarmast!


...I guess you are not of those people which moves randomly and each time one of those reach a destination they find a bunch of computer already here....


Um, no - but that does sound like a potentially profitable superpower/magical ability!

Anyway, I dug up my copy of Xanthar's out of my overstuffed locker at work...

...and then I entered the first few "key words" found it posted on-line and copied that:


Healing Spirit

Level:2
Casting time: 1 Bonus Action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You call forth a nature spirit to soothe the wounded. The intangible spirit appears in a space that is a 5-foot cube you can see within range. The spirit looks like a transparent beast or fey (your choice). Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirits space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore ld6 hit points to that creature (no action required). The spirit can’t heal constructs or undead. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the Spirit up to 30 feet to a space you can see.

At higher level
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the healing increases 1d6 for each slot level above 2nd.
It's got some flavor, and doesn't seem more OP than say "Booming Blade" from the SCAG, I'd have more issues with Druid as a class in total than that spell - seems fine.

[NaughtyTiger]

however, I do not entirely understand the argument for in-combat healing spirit(HS). Each character can only get the benefits once per turn which is 1d6 healing.


+1d6 per character per turn is still much better than similar power healing ability.

cheese ensues when the barbarian drags the unconscious monk through the square, both toons get 1d6 on the barbarian's turn. on the monk's turn, the monk can hop up, run through for another 1d6 and still get all of his actions.

my first experience allowed 16d6 healing from a 3rd level spell (upcast to 3rd)

[Willie the Duck]

Anyway, I dug up my copy of Xanthar's out of my overstuffed locker at work...

...and then I entered the first few "key words" found it posted on-line and copied that:
{Spell Description}
It's got some flavor, and doesn't seem more OP than say "Booming Blade" from the SCAG, I'd have more issues with Druid as a class in total than that spell - seems fine.

On the surface, it certainly isn't. However, outside of a threatened situation, it may be (I would call it campaign dependent, but agree that we do not have a thread consensus, which is fine).

Without outside threat, each member of the party can pair up, and, on their initiative/turn, drag themselves and a fellow party member through the square in question (and then the partner drags them both through on their turn). Thus each member of the party heals 2d6 per round for 10 rounds (2d6+8 per round if caster also has a level of Life domain Cleric).

Silly? Yes. That's one of the other complaints about the spell (and the point of my previous comparison to one-handed quarterstaves and shields) -- the overall power level of the spell is highly dependent on whether PCs adopt, and DMs allow, behavior that the writers might not have predicted and few people consider a normal part of a standard D&D immersive experience.

[Captain Panda]

Honestly, Healing Spirit is fine. It's not broken. It's only overpowered in comparison to Prayer of Healing, but as Treantmonk put it (paraphrasing), why do that? Prayer of Healing is garbage.

D&D has a lot of things that can genuinely break your game, but healing spirit is just a powerful recovery tool. It does not significantly outshine a life cleric/goodberry combo. There is only so much hp to recover, the hypothetical maximum is usually irrelevant. Your characters might have full hp after a few fights but have burned their other key resources, and that matters.

If you are going to nerf something that is plainly written in the books as a DM, have a very, very good reason. Summoning pixies with conjure woodland beings will genuinely break your combats, they will win fights they would not otherwise be able to win. Healing spirit does not provide players with the ability to win fights they shouldn't be able to win, it provides them an easy recovery. That is not broken, that isn't even close to broken. If you think that is broken you haven't yet had to deal with a player breaking your game.

[Witty Username]

+1d6 per character per turn is still much better than similar power healing ability.

On that we agree but I am not sure we have the same opinion if that makes sense.
I have not made and exhaustive search, but looking over it the healing in PHB looks pretty bad past the first level options. This seems to me like this is a good heal spell, as opposed to bad heal spells. If I am missing something please tell me.

[NaughtyTiger]

On that we agree but I am not sure we have the same opinion if that makes sense.
i get it...


I have not made and exhaustive search, but looking over it the healing in PHB looks pretty bad past the first level options.
folks who have done the exhaustive search point out that PHB healing sucks for the first 5 levels.

(folks have pointed out powerful but niche healing in the t1-t2 categories)

[Tvtyrant]

I would probably just say the summoned spirit draws on fighting spirit to heal and it only works during combat.

Either that or everyone full heals between battles.

[stoutstien]

On that we agree but I am not sure we have the same opinion if that makes sense.
I have not made and exhaustive search, but looking over it the healing in PHB looks pretty bad past the first level options. This seems to me like this is a good heal spell, as opposed to bad heal spells. If I am missing something please tell me.
Xans added a ton of low tier healing and THP sources. Most of them are solid alternative from the PHB where HS just being the best.

All and all if healing is the biggest form of power creep we have I'd call it a win.
* I consider Rangers/druid subclasses in xans as a back door buff to the least popular classes.

[qube]

It's ok to have a difference of opinion to say the established healing spells are fine and Healing Spirit is too much for the level. I'm willing to agree to disagree on that, but I maintain my position that the established healing spells aren't adequate so if Healing Spirit heals more than they do I count it as a feature not a bug. That's one side of the argument.the argument isn't that they are fine or not - that's taste. It's that other healing spells are more or less in line with each other.

Healing spirit is not.

Heck - have you considered, that if it actually was a feature .... that WotC just made an EPICfail, in that, they didn't give the fix for healing to the healing domain cleric, not even the cleric, but the druid.


I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

[stoutstien]

the argument isn't that they are fine or not - that's taste. It's that other healing spells are more or less in line with each other.

Healing spirit is not.

Heck - have you considered, that if it actually was a feature .... that WotC just made an EPICfail, in that, they didn't give the fix for healing to the healing domain cleric, not even the cleric, but the druid.


I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

That's why if it was a ranger only spell it would tone it down a ton. Putting it 5 levels deep in a half caster would keep it from wrecking low lv recovery.
Sure bards can steal it but at steep cost of a magic secret.

[Pex]

the argument isn't that they are fine or not - that's taste. It's that other healing spells are more or less in line with each other.

Healing spirit is not.

Heck - have you considered, that if it actually was a feature .... that WotC just made an EPICfail, in that, they didn't give the fix for healing to the healing domain cleric, not even the cleric, but the druid.


I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

I still call it a feature that good healing is available from multiple sources in a variety ways. No one player is healbot.

[x1372]

So I really dislike the spell myself, for similar reasons to what others have said. I'll go ahead and explain my first (and so far, only) encounter with it.

I played for the first time just under a year ago. It was an adventurer's league game at a local game shop, though run as a standard campaign rather than through AL rules. I started at level 5, and we hit level 6 at the end of my first session. By the time of this story, we'd hit level 7. This was what I would consider my first "major" combat encounter.

I wanted to play a really good healer. My first character was a life cleric. Nowhere near optimized, focused primarily on healing. Heck by this point I hadn't even understood the concept of bonus actions well, so I hadn't prepped healing word or mass healing word. Ironically, I also had dropped my cleric into a party that had two other clerics, but that meant the others could focus on some more damaging spells. In theory.

The fight was, well, nasty. We triggered it in a terrible positioning, and only made it worse for ourselves going in. I'd also blown a few spell slots on an earlier encounter, but I still had a 3rd level and my 4th level slot left. We had two melee types with a cleric behind each healing them, and me attempting to get or keep the rest of the (large) party conscious. If I hadn't cast the spell beacon of hope off at the very beginning of combat while we were still clustered together, we'd have probably lost multiple party members and possibly even TPKed (at least one paladin with a cleric focusing just on him was knocked out once, as were all 3 I was protecting). We had to end the session in the middle of combat. I had only a few spell slots left (and no channel divinity) and thought for sure we were gonna wipe the next week.

Next week, one player who had missed the previous session returned (bringing us up to 9 players at the table IIRC). He was a ranger, and the DM had him join at the end of initiative order outside the room where the combat was taking place. Over the next 3 rounds, we got the combat mostly under control, but in the process I used my last 3 spells bringing people back to consciousness. I'd also taken a few blows myself and lost concentration, I actually had become a major target due to positioning and came close to going down myself.

Then the ranger, who had missed the previous session, cast healing spirit. On the same turn as he downed one of our foes with his two attacks. And it just stays around healing over and over, keeping or bringing people up, and switching targets while he kept attacking. I didn't know how it worked, I just knew that there existed a healing over time spell and I wanted it. I'd built my character to be "healer" after all, and he was essentially doing my job and a ton of damage on top of it.

And then when combat ended, he got to use it to heal people 5 more times. I felt super jealous of that spell. I felt totally outclassed in that moment because of just how good that spell was at healing. And here's the thing. He wasn't using the spell right. He treated it as a heal on ONE person per turn, including the turns outside of combat. 10 1d6 ticks of in combat healing, while he was free to attack twice with his bow every turn including the one he cast it, while still being able to control who he targets for heals (and reviving the unconscious) felt like it was doing everything I was and then some.

Had he been playing it optimally, and restored that 1d6 (or more) hp to EVERYONE out of combat (and multiple people in combat) with a second level spell? I probably would have considered my character completely superfluous to the group, and maybe not even come back the next week.

[qube]

I still call it a feature that good healing is available from multiple sources in a variety ways. No one player is healbot.There's a nuance you missed. I didn't ask


can someone explain to me, why the druid of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric

I asked


can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

As in, a druid who went with the combat/melee subclass vs the cleric who picked the healing domain.

Just like, to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - answering "all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character" is a very unsattifying answer. it fails to adress the question.

It is not mutually exclusive to want something - and aknowledging that the way something is "fixed" is horribly wrong.


I'd built my character to be "healer" after all, and he was essentially doing my job and a ton of damage on top of it.

I felt super jealous of that spell. I felt totally outclassed in that moment because of just how good that spell was at healing. And here's the thing. He wasn't using the spell right. He treated it as a heal on ONE person per turn
Quoted, as testament to my point.

[Pex]

There's a nuance you missed. I didn't ask


can someone explain to me, why the druid of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric

I asked


can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

As in, a druid who went with the combat/melee subclass vs the cleric who picked the healing domain.

Just like, to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - answering "all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character" is a very unsattifying answer. it fails to adress the question.

It is not mutually exclusive to want something - and aknowledging that the way something is "fixed" is horribly wrong.


Quoted, as testament to my point.

Who says the cleric has to be the best? I don't give a Hoover who's the absolute best to the last hit point. Different characters can provide healing in different ways. Each way helps the party, and I'm thrilled if more than one party member can do it. The ones who heal have a chance to do something else because someone else does the healing at the moment.

[KorvinStarmast]

I still call it a feature that good healing is available from multiple sources in a variety ways. No one player is healbot.
This. Spread the healing around.

[Chronos]

Healing Spirit isn't "a variety of sources in multiple ways", and there's no other source of healing that's anywhere near as good.

[LudicSavant]

Honestly, Healing Spirit is fine. It's not broken. It's only overpowered in comparison to Prayer of Healing

The problem isn't that it's notably better than Prayer of Healing, it's that it's notably better than Aura of Vitality.

[strangebloke]

Honestly, Healing Spirit is fine. It's not broken. It's only overpowered in comparison to Prayer of Healing, but as Treantmonk put it (paraphrasing), why do that? Prayer of Healing is garbage.

This is very very simply not true.

It's overpowered compare to:

hit dice
goodberry
cure wounds
aura of vitality
prayer of healing
healer (the feat)
inspiring leader


It makes healing focused subclasses like the grave cleric cry. It makes complex healing focused builds look rather silly and pointless. It makes *simple* healing focused builds look pretty unnapealing. Why grab the healer feat when HS already gives everyone more HP than they know what to do with?

This is a huge jump in power creep, which reduces the number of relatively 'good' options to one spell and consigns everything else to the garbage bin. Prayer of healing was 'bad' before, but was still worth casting sometimes because the opportunity cost was so low. Now its straight garbage. Obviously if there's no one in the party who takes HS, then this problem doesn't come up, but how would you feel if you were playing a healer thief and then Jeremy up and rolls up with a druid and completely makes your feat irrelevant?


D&D has a lot of things that can genuinely break your game, but healing spirit is just a powerful recovery tool. It does not significantly outshine a life cleric/goodberry combo. There is only so much hp to recover, the hypothetical maximum is usually irrelevant. Your characters might have full hp after a few fights but have burned their other key resources, and that matters.

First of all, it does greatly outshine greatberry at mid to high levels. Greatberry heals 60 HP to everyone. Level 2 healing spirit heals everyone for 20d6, or 70. Level 3 heals 140.

Secondly, greatberry requires significant build investment. A druid with a level of life cleric heals the party for 170 with a second level spell.

Thirdly, yes, healing is only useful to a point. But in any game where healing actually matters, Healing Spirit breaks the game.

Xans added a ton of low tier healing and THP sources. Most of them are solid alternative from the PHB where HS just being the best.

All and all if healing is the biggest form of power creep we have I'd call it a win.
* I consider Rangers/druid subclasses in xans as a back door buff to the least popular classes.
Humorously, Xanathar has IMO the weakest ranger subclass in the game, the horizon walker.

That's why if it was a ranger only spell it would tone it down a ton. Putting it 5 levels deep in a half caster would keep it from wrecking low lv recovery.
Sure bards can steal it but at steep cost of a magic secret.
Yes, this is a fix I'm fine with.

Who says the cleric has to be the best? I don't give a Hoover who's the absolute best to the last hit point. Different characters can provide healing in different ways. Each way helps the party, and I'm thrilled if more than one party member can do it. The ones who heal have a chance to do something else because someone else does the healing at the moment.
It's not that the cleric needs to be best. Its that if you want to focus on healing but don't want to be a druid you'll be completely outshined.

[x1372]

Just a quick note on the utility of the spell. I may not be the absolute best at the game's combat system, but I played a cleric for six months, as well as a paladin and a bard briefly for other characters who had healing.

If you cut it to 1d4, only let it effect one character per round, and made it require a 3rd level spell slot, healing spirit is absolutely worth using.

If you kept it exactly as is except made it heal only 1 HP (including a clause about it ignoring life cleric bonuses) instead of 1d6, healing spirit is absolutely worth using.

The value of being able to spend a spell slot, and then, for 10 rounds, use a bonus action to bring an unconscious player back up and able to fight is simply amazing with the way 5e combat works, and that's ignoring the out of combat benefits. Even at 1HP/round, it still would compare favorably to prayer of healing out of combat.

[Sigreid]

If you really think that there is a healing imbalance that needs to be fixed for your campaign, why dont you just take Healing Spirit, change the fluff from a spirit to a column of healing light, slap a different name on it and jam it in the lists you think are lacking and should have it?

[Justin Sane]

We've changed it to have the heal trigger when someone ends its turn in it. Worked wonders - effectively becomes 1x round, and creates positioning issues monsters can exploit.

[Karnitis]

I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

This, to me, is the biggest problem (though, to be fair, we've had about 3 dozen people say what the different biggest problem is).

It's not just that its the best healing ability, it's the issue that it takes zero investment. Yeah yeah, opportunity cost of 1 spell splot. However, if the ranger or druid was going to have Cure Wounds, they should just replace it with this. Other than that, the Ranger or Druid can still do their damage builds and still be the party healer, as compared to Life clerics or Healers or others who cannot take back their choices like a D/R can just...choose a new spell at a long rest.

It would be like the Cleric getting a radiant Fireball at level 2. Sure, there are other offensive spells that can be used. But if the Cleric wants to just spam that, now they are a better blaster than a Sorc and still be the party's Support.

If you want to be the best at some core party function, it should take more time than just leveling to lv.3.

[Willie the Duck]

This, to me, is the biggest problem (though, to be fair, we've had about 3 dozen people say what the different biggest problem is).

It's kind of nice to have an issue where there are vastly different reasons why something is or isn't good. It has been a while where the actual nuances and finer details of the different arguments are more important than a straightforward 'is this too much?' Personally, I think the spell itself is too much healing per spell level or exactly the right amount of healing per spell level (and thus what the other healing spells should have been in the first place) explicitly depending on what kind of game you are running. Which is to say I fall on both sides of that issue. Yet I still dislike the spell for some of the other reasons (I think Life cleric or others who have dedicated themselves to the role should be the best at the task, I dislike how the spell incentivizes 'gaming' the spell wording, etc.).

[Temperjoke]

One subset of players: "Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing. I wish they'd give more options to heal and fix this."

A group of DMs: "My players keep trying to take short rests so they can heal with dice, and it's ruining the flow of my game. I wish they'd add some better recovery options."

Healing spirit is added.

A different group of players: "Geez, you guys totally made my healbot feel worthless! We need to nerf this spell cause I don't have it."

Another group of DMs: "This spell is totally ruining my ability to kill my players via attrition. Nerf it or ban it please."

[Daphne]

Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing.

This isn't true at all, you don't need a healbot in 5e, you don't even need a spellcaster in the party at all.

[Pex]

This, to me, is the biggest problem (though, to be fair, we've had about 3 dozen people say what the different biggest problem is).

It's not just that its the best healing ability, it's the issue that it takes zero investment. Yeah yeah, opportunity cost of 1 spell splot. However, if the ranger or druid was going to have Cure Wounds, they should just replace it with this. Other than that, the Ranger or Druid can still do their damage builds and still be the party healer, as compared to Life clerics or Healers or others who cannot take back their choices like a D/R can just...choose a new spell at a long rest.

It would be like the Cleric getting a radiant Fireball at level 2. Sure, there are other offensive spells that can be used. But if the Cleric wants to just spam that, now they are a better blaster than a Sorc and still be the party's Support.

If you want to be the best at some core party function, it should take more time than just leveling to lv.3.

Cleric of Light

Not literally a radiant Fireball, but they get Fireball, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and Flaming Sphere. They can also channel burst radiant damage.

[Sigreid]

Cleric of Light

Not literally a radiant Fireball, but they get Fireball, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and Flaming Sphere. They can also channel burst radiant damage.


This isn't true at all, you don't need a healbot in 5e, you don't even need a spellcaster in the party at all.

"Sorry, my God thinks healing magic is for wimps and doesn't grant those spells." 😁

[Pex]

One subset of players: "Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing. I wish they'd give more options to heal and fix this."

A group of DMs: "My players keep trying to take short rests so they can heal with dice, and it's ruining the flow of my game. I wish they'd add some better recovery options."

Healing spirit is added.

A different group of players: "Geez, you guys totally made my healbot feel worthless! We need to nerf this spell cause I don't have it."

Another group of DMs: "This spell is totally ruining my ability to kill my players via attrition. Nerf it or ban it please."

:smallcool:

[strangebloke]

One subset of players: "Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing. I wish they'd give more options to heal and fix this."

A group of DMs: "My players keep trying to take short rests so they can heal with dice, and it's ruining the flow of my game. I wish they'd add some better recovery options."

Healing spirit is added.

A different group of players: "Geez, you guys totally made my healbot feel worthless! We need to nerf this spell cause I don't have it."

Another group of DMs: "This spell is totally ruining my ability to kill my players via attrition. Nerf it or ban it please."

This would hold water, except that your first group of DMs and players are clueless.

Between hit dice and nearly half the classes having access to healing, nobody should ever have expected a non-life cleric to function as a healbot.

I have literally never seen a DM complaining that their players try to take too many short rests. I have seen complaints about the five minute adventuring day, but that's not really related to healing.

Will anyone directly answer my question? You're a thief with the healer feat. You're an important person in the party. How do you feel when Jeremy rolls up with a druid and casually makes your role kinda disappear? And even if this wouldn't upset you, can you at least see how it's upsetting to other players??

[Jamesps]

Cleric of Light

Not literally a radiant Fireball, but they get Fireball, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and Flaming Sphere. They can also channel burst radiant damage.

Which makes them a reasonably good blaster. Not by far and away the best blaster, but competitive.

[Karnitis]

Which makes them a reasonably good blaster. Not by far and away the best blaster, but competitive.

Right - which is fine, no one says the Light cleric is broken. but if their fireball was a Level 2 spell slot that could very much change things.

[Imbalance]

Will anyone directly answer my question? You're a thief with the healer feat. You're an important person in the party. How do you feel when Jeremy rolls up with a druid and casually makes your role kinda disappear? And even if this wouldn't upset you, can you at least see how it's upsetting to other players??

I'll take a stab at it: Jeremy is no less important with his druid than I am with my thief. Jeremy's druid has other options, has given me more opportunities for thieving, and together we can divide healing duties. I can see how this might be upsetting to certain types of players, yes, but that doesn't make it bad or wrong.

[Envyus]

I added this line to the spell and it became much more tolerable to my games.

"The Spirit will only activate in the throes of combat."

[Pex]

This would hold water, except that your first group of DMs and players are clueless.

Between hit dice and nearly half the classes having access to healing, nobody should ever have expected a non-life cleric to function as a healbot.

I have literally never seen a DM complaining that their players try to take too many short rests. I have seen complaints about the five minute adventuring day, but that's not really related to healing.

Will anyone directly answer my question? You're a thief with the healer feat. You're an important person in the party. How do you feel when Jeremy rolls up with a druid and casually makes your role kinda disappear? And even if this wouldn't upset you, can you at least see how it's upsetting to other players??

The druid can use the spell when the party isn't short resting after a combat. When the party is short resting the druid saves his spell slot and the thief uses Healer feat since the use refreshes on a short rest. Sometimes the druid will need his spell slot for other things, but the Healer feat is still there. Sometimes a PC needs emergency healing in combat, more than just to stay alive whack a mole. Healing Spirit won't suffice, but Healer feat does. Sometimes the party only needs an amount of healing the Healer feat provides. To use Healing Spirit would be a waste because not all of it is needed, so might as well let the thief use Healer feat and save the spell slot for later, possibly for a spell that's not Healing Spirit.

It's quite easy to cooperate than resent the other PC for existing.

[Forum Explorer]

Eh, the spell is powerful yes, and even too powerful for it's level. But is it a problem? I don't think so. It hardly breaks the game for the party to top up to full HP after a fight. Generally speaking HP is the last resource to run out for a party anyways.

[Frozenstep]

The druid can use the spell when the party isn't short resting after a combat. When the party is short resting the druid saves his spell slot and the thief uses Healer feat since the use refreshes on a short rest. Sometimes the druid will need his spell slot for other things, but the Healer feat is still there. Sometimes a PC needs emergency healing in combat, more than just to stay alive whack a mole. Healing Spirit won't suffice, but Healer feat does. Sometimes the party only needs an amount of healing the Healer feat provides. To use Healing Spirit would be a waste because not all of it is needed, so might as well let the thief use Healer feat and save the spell slot for later, possibly for a spell that's not Healing Spirit.

It's quite easy to cooperate than resent the other PC for existing.

"You just exist to save me resources when my full power isn't needed. You're like a wand of fireballs on a 20th level caster."

That's how I can see people feeling about it, and it's not a fun position to be in. I know the healer feat is better in some situations, but it's not enough to justify picking up over other options if such a good generalist option exists. Might as well picked some other option and contribute somewhere else the team is lacking and feel more useful.

[strangebloke]

The druid can use the spell when the party isn't short resting after a combat. When the party is short resting the druid saves his spell slot and the thief uses Healer feat since the use refreshes on a short rest. Sometimes the druid will need his spell slot for other things, but the Healer feat is still there. Sometimes a PC needs emergency healing in combat, more than just to stay alive whack a mole. Healing Spirit won't suffice, but Healer feat does. Sometimes the party only needs an amount of healing the Healer feat provides. To use Healing Spirit would be a waste because not all of it is needed, so might as well let the thief use Healer feat and save the spell slot for later, possibly for a spell that's not Healing Spirit.
How often do druids run out of second level slots?

In my experience, most druids are moon druids and moon druids cast about one spell per combat. Land druids cast more but also have more.

If the function of my entire feat is to sometimes save the druid a second level slot, that's lame, and will become much more lame as you level up. I would probably never take that feat. In a game with a druid healer is a pretty bad feat. In a game without a druid, healer is pretty great.

It's quite easy to cooperate than resent the other PC for existing.


Yes of course.

But this is precisely the sort of argument you could use back in 3.5 to say that class balance wasn't a problem there.

Nothing is a problem if everyone plays nice.

Everything is a problem if the players are terrible.

Some things, though, are generally big problems if the group of players are imperfect. This is one of those cases.

[qube]

One subset of players: "Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing. I wish they'd give more options to heal and fix this."

A group of DMs: "My players keep trying to take short rests so they can heal with dice, and it's ruining the flow of my game. I wish they'd add some better recovery options."

Healing spirit is added.

A different group of players: "Geez, you guys totally made my healbot feel worthless! We need to nerf this spell cause I don't have it."

Another group of DMs: "This spell is totally ruining my ability to kill my players via attrition. Nerf it or ban it please."to repeat myself:


It is not mutually exclusive to want something - and aknowledging that the way something is "fixed" is horribly wrong.


> As in, a druid who went with the combat/melee subclass vs the cleric who picked the healing domain.

Who says the cleric has to be the best?Sigh ... Really? I can just add that directly to the analogy, in that


Just like, to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - answering "all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character" is a very unsattifying answer. it fails to adress the question.

"who says the archer has to be better then the sword & board fighter in ranged combat." is an equally unsatifying answer.

I've known you long enough to know you're not some kid ranting. Your inteliigence score is high enough to understand that one would very much presume that a cahracter who focusses on something should be better then a character who doesn't (And I ain't talking about frindge cases like a classes focussing on something they aren't intended for)

You want to argue that presumption is wrong ... fine, but then you'll need to explain it to me.


can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

ACTUALLY explain it to me. Not in a way that first requires me to kick out common sense.

[Man_Over_Game]

to repeat myself:


It is not mutually exclusive to want something - and aknowledging that the way something is "fixed" is horribly wrong.

Sigh ... Really? I can just add that directly to the analogy, in that


Just like, to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - answering "all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character" is a very unsattifying answer. it fails to adress the question.

"who says the archer has to be better then the sword & board fighter in ranged combat." is an equally unsatifying answer.

I've known you long enough to know you're not some kid ranting. Your inteliigence score is high enough to understand that one would very much presume that a cahracter who focusses on something should be better then a character who doesn't (And I ain't talking about frindge cases like a classes focussing on something they aren't intended for)

You want to argue that presumption is wrong ... fine, but then you'll need to explain it to me.


can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

ACTUALLY explain it to me. Not in a way that first requires me to kick out common sense.

I don't think that Druids and Clerics actually cover the same kind of "healing". Druids handle sustainability, endurance. They make you last throughout a hard day's worth of work and adventure. Clerics are the ones who heal you from the brink of death, using miracles to defy odds in a grand finale.

I don't consider Healing Spirit a great combat spell. It requires a lot of gimmicks and positioning to work properly. On the other hand, Clerics have Mass Healing Word.

My only gripe with Healing Spirit is that it removes any need for Hit Dice, Healing Kits, and Medicine Checks, and those are all things that need more attention, not less. But I still feel that Healing Spirit does fit well with the Druid's stereotype of long-term, endurance-style of support.

[NaughtyTiger]

I don't consider Healing Spirit a great combat spell. It requires a lot of gimmicks and positioning to work properly. On the other hand, Clerics have Mass Healing Word.

mass healing word will bring 3 dead members back into the fray. for 1 round cuz d4+3 ain't much.
so 3d4+9 for a 3rd level spell and 3 people doing damage.

if you only have 1 dead member this round, you can bring him back for 2d6 (upcast to match mass healing word), and heal a mobile buddy (2d6), and bring back original guy on the next round too.
6d6 for the 3rd level spell. the druid can keep bringing you back from the brink of death all day long.

[Pex]

to repeat myself:


It is not mutually exclusive to want something - and aknowledging that the way something is "fixed" is horribly wrong.

Sigh ... Really? I can just add that directly to the analogy, in that


Just like, to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - answering "all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character" is a very unsattifying answer. it fails to adress the question.

"who says the archer has to be better then the sword & board fighter in ranged combat." is an equally unsatifying answer.

I've known you long enough to know you're not some kid ranting. Your inteliigence score is high enough to understand that one would very much presume that a cahracter who focusses on something should be better then a character who doesn't (And I ain't talking about frindge cases like a classes focussing on something they aren't intended for)

You want to argue that presumption is wrong ... fine, but then you'll need to explain it to me.


can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

ACTUALLY explain it to me. Not in a way that first requires me to kick out common sense.

The healer role was the one role players in general dreaded the most. Someone got stuck being the healbot in spite of some players enjoying the healer role. 5E got rid of that. The power of healing has been spread around. No one is supposed to be the healer anymore.

[Daphne]

The healer role was the one role players in general dreaded the most. Someone got stuck being the healbot in spite of some players enjoying the healer role. 5E got rid of that. The power of healing has been spread around. No one is supposed to be the healer anymore.

This was true even before Healing Spirit, the spell just made other options obsolete. And it's not even available for most classes.

[strangebloke]

We're in circles at this point, so I'm just going to sum up:


HP attrition is by default the most important form of resource attrition in the game. Healing Spirit ensures that HP attrition is one of the least important forms of resource attrition if and only if there is a druid in the party and he takes healing spirit. Such a large scale restructuring of the adventuring day should not be predicated on a single class and spell. A lot of people don't structure their adventuring days at all and that's fine for them, but 5e has historically supported structured adventuring days.
Healing Spirit allows generalist druid builds to outperform even the most extreme specialist healer builds. This makes those specialized healer builds kind of stupid and weak. This lowers the number of fun things that DND as a system can support.
Healing Spirit adds an incredibly powerful tool to one of the most powerful classes in the game.
Healing Spirit is just poorly designed. It's supposed to be an in-combat spell, but its best out of combat. Its effectiveness can be doubled or tripled by gaming the spell with stupid, versimilitude-destroying exploitative tactics.


I haven't heard anything to answer any of these points beyond, "Well it hasn't been a problem in my game." Well, jolly good for you. But maybe don't casually dismiss those of us for whom it has been a problem.


The healer role was the one role players in general dreaded the most. Someone got stuck being the healbot in spite of some players enjoying the healer role. 5E got rid of that. The power of healing has been spread around. No one is supposed to be the healer anymore.

Nobody needs to be a healer. That's good design. Somebody can be the healer. That's also good design. That is how 5e was made. You can make a healer who is good at healing and less so at everything else if you want to and it will be effective but there's no expectation that someone has to be the healer.

HS upsets that. If you're a druid, you're the healer. Nobody else should even bother investing resources in it, since you're 3-5 times as efficient as everyone else. If someone wants to play a dedicated healbot, they probably shouldn't since the druid will just casually make them irrelevant. Like, in a party with a cleric, bard, and druid, you'd (before HS) expect them all to heal some. But in a game after HS... well, maybe the cleric and bard sometimes cast healing word, but that's about it. Even if its a life cleric/lore bard, its basically never going to be worth it for the life cleric/lore bard to show off their one cool trick.

So yeah, it went from, "nobody needs to be a healbot, but someone can if they want" to "nobody can be a healbot if there's a druid in the party."

[OldTrees1]

I'll take a stab at it: Jeremy is no less important with his druid than I am with my thief. Jeremy's druid has other options, has given me more opportunities for thieving, and together we can divide healing duties. I can see how this might be upsetting to certain types of players, yes, but that doesn't make it bad or wrong.

Thank you for taking a stab at it. However could you take another stab at it after the following clarification?

Jeremy made a Healer and took the Healer Feat to represent that focus despite their Rogue class.
John made a Werewolf using the Druid class and reached 3rd level.
John's non healing focused character now vastly outshines Jeremy's Healer in terms of Healing.

To use an analogy (for further clarification)
Jacob made an Archer. They took the Fighter class, the Archery fighting style, and the Sharpshooter feat.
Joshua made a Big club wielding ogre and reached 3rd level.
Joshua's non Archer now vastly outshines Jacob's Archer in terms of Archery.

Qube wanted someone (Pex) to explain to them why the non specialist ought to be better at the specialization that the specialist. (Yes you were answer's strangebloke's rendition of the question, but the original question has merit) You seem more willing to attempt to answer. I'll appreciate your attempt regardless of whether it succeeds or not.

[Kane0]

It just occurred to me that Healing Spirit is sort of like the Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor in 3.PF

[qube]

Qube wanted someone (Pex) to explainhonestly, anyone who holds that position, is fine by me.


The healer role was the one role players in general dreaded the most. Someone got stuck being the healbot in spite of some players enjoying the healer role. 5E got rid of that. The power of healing has been spread around. No one is supposed to be the healer anymore.5th edition got rid of the requirement of a healbot - it did not however, get rid of characters who want to specialize in healing - as objectivley proven by they life domain of the cleric. So, AGAIN, you do not adress the issue.

to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - the following are, quite obvioulsy, not satifying answers to that question

all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character
who says the archer has to be better then the sword & board fighter in ranged combat.
5E got rid of the archer being the only one able to do ranged damage

And likewise,

can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???
still lacks an decenct explenation.


So yeah, it went from, "nobody needs to be a healbot, but someone can if they want" to "nobody can be a healbot if there's a druid in the party." nicely worded.

[OldTrees1]

It just occurred to me that Healing Spirit is sort of like the Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor in 3.PF

From my experience I would describe it as a spectrum.

The strong healing (Healer Feat, Inspiring Leader, Prayer of Healing, & Aura of Vitality) is all good enough that they can maintain party health between combats while daily resources are drained. In fact the gold cost of the Healer Feat makes it similar to the 3.X Wands.

Then you move into the 3.X wands where there is a resource drain significant enough to at least consider not topping off all day long. However the healing potential on any given day would be more than enough to cover more damage than can be taken on a given day.

Then you have Healing Spirit. Every day your party can sustain more damage than they can take on that day. Additionally it takes few enough resources to not risk running out.

How much healing makes sense per day at your table can and will vary from table to table and even campaign to campaign. I did mention an idea where there was a poisonous background radiation hazard that dealt damage every hour to the party. Such a campaign would require healing on the scale of Healing Spirit. Of course not every campaign / table needs that excessive of healing so it is understandable why so many of our peers don't like the Healing Spirit spell (in the context of their tables/campaigns).

[Contrast]

The healer role was the one role players in general dreaded the most. Someone got stuck being the healbot in spite of some players enjoying the healer role. 5E got rid of that. The power of healing has been spread around. No one is supposed to be the healer anymore.


For my groups without a druid, and one with a druid who doesn't use the spell, healing to full HP out of combat is super easy barely an inconvenience. In an old group I played a Light cleric and only ever cast one healing spell, Cure Wounds, once at first level in the first session. Afterwards we got by on short rest HD spending and healing potions. When I took Healer feat at 4th level we started to have a surplus of healing potions. The campaign ended at 9th level. With my current groups, depending on the group, there's Lay On Hands, Healer feat, players willing to cast Cure Wounds above 1st level, Prayer of Healing, healing potions, short rest HD spending, Inspiring Leader feat. 5E does not lack for sources of healing even if I personally think the healing spells are garbage. I only like Healing Word in the sense it stops a PC from having to make death saves and the caster can still do something else, even if only a Cantrip. Having Healing Spirit is great, but you aren't the Suck without it now that it exists.

You're quite right that you can get by without a dedicated healer. By your own admission though its been pretty common in your games for people to invest in healing/damage mitigation focused feats and you're found it viable to upcast Cure Wounds or cast Prayer of Healing so clearly, if nothing else, it makes your life as an adventurer easier to have some access to such.

Having someone who can cast Healing Spirit in the party means the opportunity cost of taking those feats tips wildly in another direction and anyone casting any of those other spells is wasting spell slots.

I agree healing magic is generally bad. I agree there is scope for better healing spells. I disagree that Healing Spirit was the appropriate power level to pitch new healing spells at.

[Chronos]

And "giving everyone options for healing" is a poor rationale for Healing Spirit, anyway, since the two classes that get it already had a good healing option not available to others, Goodberry. Meanwhile there are still a few classes that don't have any options for healing, and Healing Spirit didn't give them any, either.

[Willie the Duck]

I don't consider Healing Spirit a great combat spell. It requires a lot of gimmicks and positioning to work properly. On the other hand, Clerics have Mass Healing Word.


I think the gimmickyness is part of the part I do not like. The idea of spells summoning little spirits who do X for you would be a neat little concept if more of the game were like it (and there was more design heft behind it, such as an accounting of the spirits' action economy, and a sidebar on whether people see the spirit and/or know it is not a distinct entity which can be targeted by attacks, etc.), but as a spell in isolation, it just seems like a spanner in the works. Likewise, the idea of if being able to heal people within Y area, which could be moved with a bonus action by the caster (losing the normal benefit of it being an action-economy-free ongoing resource) is a neat idea. It makes people plan where they are going to be and maybe make the caster weigh some important decisions if the battle moves from where they intended (or the enemies figure out to capitalize on the free healing). However, again as a spell in isolation, not enough thought was put into 'out of combat, this incentivizes the party to play ring-around-the-rosie for a minute.'


My only gripe with Healing Spirit is that it removes any need for Hit Dice, Healing Kits, and Medicine Checks, and those are all things that need more attention, not less.

I would include Life domain Cleric in there as well. I mean, maybe the designers consider it simply 'the default/free-to-use cleric' but clearly a lot of people do consider it to be the 'previous edition-style healbot cleric.' If they thought that healing needed to be boosted, and HS was their way to do it*, then I wish they would have included Life Clerics in the recipient list (up to editing the domain-granted spells, if they did not want to include it for all clerics).
*Though I do not claim this to be the case. I think HS being an extremely good OOC healer for the whole party was an accident.

[Pex]

As a personal amusing anecdote, I find it ironically hilarious I'm defending something 5E did while others are highly disapproving.

[Shuruke]

So far none of my players have cared to use it

However

If they do get gamey about it the quick fix I would use is the spirit will heal a target a maximum of once a round.

Healing spirit at the end of combat will do a burst heal = to number of d8 for how long it was active (not increasing with Upcast)

Healing spirit instead of lasting 1 minute lasts one combat


I feel this would work a bit better
And would make a little game of keep the spirit up through the whole fight

[KorvinStarmast]

As a personal amusing anecdote, I find it ironically hilarious I'm defending something 5E did while others are highly disapproving. I"ve been enjoying that aspect of this conversation.

[strangebloke]

As a personal amusing anecdote, I find it ironically hilarious I'm defending something 5E did while others are highly disapproving.


I"ve been enjoying that aspect of this conversation.

Same. :D

Hey, why don't we all just agree that healing spirit would be like 50% better if they removed the whole silly "run in and out of range" gimmick?

[Willie the Duck]

Hey, why don't we all just agree that healing spirit would be like 50% better if they removed the whole silly "run in and out of range" gimmick?

If we get rid of the gimmicky nature of the spell, it's mostly down to 'did 5e need healing boosted?' and 'are these the right characters to get the boost?,' in which case we're solidly in the 'going to depend a lot on personal perspective' range.

[strangebloke]

If we get rid of the gimmicky nature of the spell, it's mostly down to 'did 5e need healing boosted?' and 'are these the right characters to get the boost?,' in which case we're solidly in the 'going to depend a lot on personal perspective' range.

Well, and its about half as strong as it currently is if you remove the gimmick.

[Imbalance]

Thank you for taking a stab at it. However could you take another stab at it after the following clarification?

Jeremy made a Healer and took the Healer Feat to represent that focus despite their Rogue class.
John made a Werewolf using the Druid class and reached 3rd level.
John's non healing focused character now vastly outshines Jeremy's Healer in terms of Healing.

To use an analogy (for further clarification)
Jacob made an Archer. They took the Fighter class, the Archery fighting style, and the Sharpshooter feat.
Joshua made a Big club wielding ogre and reached 3rd level.
Joshua's non Archer now vastly outshines Jacob's Archer in terms of Archery.

Qube wanted someone (Pex) to explain to them why the non specialist ought to be better at the specialization that the specialist. (Yes you were answer's strangebloke's rendition of the question, but the original question has merit) You seem more willing to attempt to answer. I'll appreciate your attempt regardless of whether it succeeds or not.

Stabbing might be my specialty, but it would not surprise me to find someone who is better at it than me.

So, part of it is that I'm newer and learning and unafraid to be wrong. I'm not arguing to convince, but to explore the experiences that have lead to opinions I do not share. Perspective.

Here's a very real example:
Jeremy went to school for engineering, got a four-year degree and a career doing engineering stuff for a living.
John got a technical degree, and after a few years in an engineering-related field became a designer at Jeremy's firm.
Jeremy now focuses on project management while John handles most of the engineering because they both understand their roles as members of a team that will achieve greater success than either one could individually. Jeremy can still jump into design work at any time, and John will remain flexible to take on other project tasks. If both are critical to the completion of the project, nobody is getting outshined.

It's up to the DM to ensure that everyone is enjoying themselves and their role at the table, right? So, if the "hate" is as prolific as this thread indicates, then this is obviously something that needs to be addressed per table, rather than wallowing in a state of chargen jealousy that a rule does not meet expectations. Beyond that, the hangups folk have still seem silly to me in a game with dice and two whole other aspects of play besides combat. Play will move forward and characters will progress, and come level 14 and a robust adventure in your wake you'll wonder what you were so upset about, piddly spell. If at the end of the campaign the cleric is still bitter about the werewolf rather than giddily recalling how the party took down the BBEG together, I'd say the problem is more with the player than the rules.

But again, am I wrong?

[strangebloke]

Stabbing might be my specialty, but it would not surprise me to find someone who is better at it than me.

So, part of it is that I'm newer and learning and unafraid to be wrong. I'm not arguing to convince, but to explore the experiences that have lead to opinions I do not share. Perspective.

Here's a very real example:
Jeremy went to school for engineering, got a four-year degree and a career doing engineering stuff for a living.
John got a technical degree, and after a few years in an engineering-related field became a designer at Jeremy's firm.
Jeremy now focuses on project management while John handles most of the engineering because they both understand their roles as members of a team that will achieve greater success than either one could individually. Jeremy can still jump into design work at any time, and John will remain flexible to take on other project tasks. If both are critical to the completion of the project, nobody is getting outshined.

It's up to the DM to ensure that everyone is enjoying themselves and their role at the table, right? So, if the "hate" is as prolific as this thread indicates, then this is obviously something that needs to be addressed per table, rather than wallowing in a state of chargen jealousy that a rule does not meet expectations. Beyond that, the hangups folk have still seem silly to me in a game with dice and two whole other aspects of play besides combat. Play will move forward and characters will progress, and come level 14 and a robust adventure in your wake you'll wonder what you were so upset about, piddly spell. If at the end of the campaign the cleric is still bitter about the werewolf rather than giddily recalling how the party took down the BBEG together, I'd say the problem is more with the player than the rules.

But again, am I wrong?

So, I'm laughing hard at how far this analogy has gone afield.

But this is a rule 0 fallacy. AKA "if the DM can fix it there isn't a problem." Or maybe its more the rule 0 corrolary: "If the players can make it work, it isn't a problem."

If the DM and players are perfect, the game doesn't actually need rules at all. A good enough group of guys can play a decent game using FATAL, but that doesn't make FATAL anything other than a terrible game. We all have our limitations and the rules make things easier. Every kid at some point has played what I like to call "competitive makebelieve" where you and your friend fight imaginary battles. Invariably those games always end in tears because Scott decided that he wanted to be immune to rocket launchers and that doesn't make any sense and he's a poopie head.

The rules help avoid that poopie head scenario. If the rules instead help create the poopie head scenario, then they're not good rules. I would argue that this is what Healing Spirit represents. Any single spell that eliminates the point of an entire feat/class feature combo is giving me 3.5 flashbacks. Its nowhere near that bad, yet, but I don't find it tasteful.

Honestly though, it would be a lot less bad if there wasn't the stupid gimmickiness of how thing currently work.

[Frozenstep]

Stabbing might be my specialty, but it would not surprise me to find someone who is better at it than me.

So, part of it is that I'm newer and learning and unafraid to be wrong. I'm not arguing to convince, but to explore the experiences that have lead to opinions I do not share. Perspective.

Here's a very real example:
Jeremy went to school for engineering, got a four-year degree and a career doing engineering stuff for a living.
John got a technical degree, and after a few years in an engineering-related field became a designer at Jeremy's firm.
Jeremy now focuses on project management while John handles most of the engineering because they both understand their roles as members of a team that will achieve greater success than either one could individually. Jeremy can still jump into design work at any time, and John will remain flexible to take on other project tasks. If both are critical to the completion of the project, nobody is getting outshined.

It's up to the DM to ensure that everyone is enjoying themselves and their role at the table, right? So, if the "hate" is as prolific as this thread indicates, then this is obviously something that needs to be addressed per table, rather than wallowing in a state of chargen jealousy that a rule does not meet expectations. Beyond that, the hangups folk have still seem silly to me in a game with dice and two whole other aspects of play besides combat. Play will move forward and characters will progress, and come level 14 and a robust adventure in your wake you'll wonder what you were so upset about, piddly spell. If at the end of the campaign the cleric is still bitter about the werewolf rather than giddily recalling how the party took down the BBEG together, I'd say the problem is more with the player than the rules.

But again, am I wrong?

Your stab is getting kind of weird. But anyway, if one of the two people studied for years to be a specialist at one thing, and some other dude comes in and can do a wide array of stuff and also be better then the specialist at his one thing, then why would anyone choose to study as the specialist? Even if that one thing is what they want to be good at, they'd study whatever generalist dude does. Why not have two druids instead of a druid and a cleric?

Look, people play beastmaster rangers and all sorts of badly made homebrew and still have a fun time. More power to them, there's nothing wrong with enjoying it. But bad design is still bad design, and the underlying system and rules shouldn't be forgiven when it makes mistakes. If at the end of the adventure the cleric is happy they won, but kind of ambivalent to their role in the whole thing because the druid took care of most of the healing and they feel like they could have missed every session and not made a difference, do you really think that's the player's fault? Or if they switched to being a damage-focused cleric despite their build focused on healing (because there wasn't enough stuff that needed to be healed), and they felt like it wasn't what they wanted from their character, is that their fault?

The rules failed this player, and I think we can do better then that.

[Sigreid]

So, I'm laughing hard at how far this analogy has gone afield.

But this is a rule 0 fallacy. AKA "if the DM can fix it there isn't a problem." Or maybe its more the rule 0 corrolary: "If the players can make it work, it isn't a problem."

If the DM and players are perfect, the game doesn't actually need rules at all. A good enough group of guys can play a decent game using FATAL, but that doesn't make FATAL anything other than a terrible game. We all have our limitations and the rules make things easier. Every kid at some point has played what I like to call "competitive makebelieve" where you and your friend fight imaginary battles. Invariably those games always end in tears because Scott decided that he wanted to be immune to rocket launchers and that doesn't make any sense and he's a poopie head.

The rules help avoid that poopie head scenario. If the rules instead help create the poopie head scenario, then they're not good rules. I would argue that this is what Healing Spirit represents. Any single spell that eliminates the point of an entire feat/class feature combo is giving me 3.5 flashbacks. Its nowhere near that bad, yet, but I don't find it tasteful.

Honestly though, it would be a lot less bad if there wasn't the stupid gimmickiness of how thing currently work.

Counter point, if some think there is a problem and others do not, it doesn't necessarily need to be officially corrected as it's not a problem for everyone.

[Contrast]

It's up to the DM to ensure that everyone is enjoying themselves and their role at the table, right? So, if the "hate" is as prolific as this thread indicates, then this is obviously something that needs to be addressed per table, rather than wallowing in a state of chargen jealousy that a rule does not meet expectations. Beyond that, the hangups folk have still seem silly to me in a game with dice and two whole other aspects of play besides combat. Play will move forward and characters will progress, and come level 14 and a robust adventure in your wake you'll wonder what you were so upset about, piddly spell. If at the end of the campaign the cleric is still bitter about the werewolf rather than giddily recalling how the party took down the BBEG together, I'd say the problem is more with the player than the rules.

But again, am I wrong?

Yeah I'd say you're wrong.

Imagine they introduced a new level 2 spell for eldritch knights and wizards. It provides such a substantial slew of bonuses for exploration style challenges (including being able to achieve the same thing but better than other staple spells of the same level like darkvision and pass without trace) that it trivialises them not only for the player character but the entire party.

Could you play a game with such a spell? Sure but the DM would have to adjust everything to account for it and this may screw the party if they suddenly don't have access to it.
Could a party play fine without the spell? Sure but the presence of it would have a warping effect on choosing party comp and the point in building certain types of characters in case someone picks up a character with this spell.
Would a ranger be left scratching their heads slightly wondering why they hadn't just built an eldritch knight or even a wizard? Possibly.

According to you none of those issues matter apparently. I would indeed say you are wrong on that matter. You are of course free to do what you want on your table as am I, which you're advocating as the best solution. Out of interest, do you think WotC should print a spell that does the above? According to your stance above the answer is yes because I could just choose not to allow it at my table. My answer is no because its a bad idea :smallbiggrin:

I'd also point out that Healing Spirit is actually far more useful/powerful at level 14 than it is at level 3 but maybe that opinion is just another of my silly hang ups :smalltongue:

[Frozenstep]

Counter point, if some think there is a problem and others do not, it doesn't necessarily need to be officially corrected as it's not a problem for everyone.

Counter counter point, there's always going to be some who don't think X is a problem, even if X is a design flaw that turns away people from the game. Leaving a design flaw in a game and calling it fine because "DM's can just remove it!" is also bad design, as that kind of thinking eventually forces a new DM to research and learn a list of things that they need to exclude, or learn from experience (which can be very unfun for players).

[stoutstien]

I feel it is more powerful upcasted but more impactful at lower levels when spell slot are more valuable and hp attrition is a threat.

As an thought puzzle we could stick it on a few expanded spell lists like life domain or celestial warlock to see how much it truly overrides other options.

[strangebloke]

Counter point, if some think there is a problem and others do not, it doesn't necessarily need to be officially corrected as it's not a problem for everyone.

Oh sure. Personally I'd wager that most DMs don't structure their adventuring days at all so the attrtition thing isn't a problem. Most players don't realize the gimmick and so that isn't a problem. The only one that might come up at most tables is the healbot getting sidelined, so I see that as the biggest problem.

Fortunately, at most tables, the healbot will be a life cleric and those actually sorta coexist with healing spirit. Life cleric is still the best in combat healer.

[Sigreid]

Counter counter point, there's always going to be some who don't think X is a problem, even if X is a design flaw that turns away people from the game. Leaving a design flaw in a game and calling it fine because "DM's can just remove it!" is also bad design, as that kind of thinking eventually forces a new DM to research and learn a list of things that they need to exclude, or learn from experience (which can be very unfun for players).

But it's incredibly bad for a game if major changes are made because of a few people unhappy on the internet. I mean, I seem to recall someone up thread complaining that the spell makes the rogue with the healer feat no longer the group's main healer.

[Frozenstep]

But it's incredibly bad for a game if major changes are made because of a few people unhappy on the internet. I mean, I seem to recall someone up thread complaining that the spell makes the rogue with the healer feat no longer the group's main healer.

That was not the point I was countering. A design flaw is a design flaw, and it's healthier for a game to correct it even if some people are fine with the design flaw. Whether or not healing spirit is a design flaw or not is a separate point.

[Sigreid]

That was not the point I was countering. A design flaw is a design flaw, and it's healthier for a game to correct it even if some people are fine with the design flaw. Whether or not healing spirit is a design flaw or not is a separate point.

You're missing that I and others disagree it is a design flaw.

[georgie_leech]

You're missing that I and others disagree it is a design flaw.

As always, there is a relevant xkcd (https://xkcd.com/1172/)

[stoutstien]

Oh sure. Personally I'd wager that most DMs don't structure their adventuring days at all so the attrtition thing isn't a problem. Most players don't realize the gimmick and so that isn't a problem. The only one that might come up at most tables is the healbot getting sidelined, so I see that as the biggest problem.

Fortunately, at most tables, the healbot will be a life cleric and those actually sorta coexist with healing spirit. Life cleric is still the best in combat healer.

I think the shepherd druid can challenge the life cleric as the best combat healer with way less investment.

[Sigreid]

As always, there is a relevant xkcd (https://xkcd.com/1172/)

I dont actually want them making changes based on anyone's perception of an issue, not even mine.

[Frozenstep]

You're missing that I and others disagree it is a design flaw.

I was simply pointing out that using the argument that a problem doesn't need to be corrected because some people are fine with it is flawed. I wouldn't defend anything with that argument. A game making major changes (changing one spell isn't that major, though...) based on what some dudes on the internet say isn't great either, but that doesn't mean a problem shouldn't be corrected when it's still a problem, and it doesn't mean dudes on the internet can't talk about why they think a design choice in a game was a poor one.

I'm not chasing down the designers and demanding they make an errata here.

[Sigreid]

I was simply pointing out that using the argument that a problem doesn't need to be corrected because some people are fine with it is flawed. I wouldn't defend anything with that argument. A game making major changes (changing one spell isn't that major, though...) based on what some dudes on the internet say isn't great either, but that doesn't mean a problem shouldn't be corrected when it's still a problem, and it doesn't mean dudes on the internet can't talk about why they think a design choice in a game was a poor one.

We are still talking past each other. I simply maintain that whether it is or isn't flawed is an opinion, neither is an absolute fact.

[Frozenstep]

We are still talking past each other. I simply maintain that whether it is or isn't flawed is an opinion, neither is an absolute fact.

If it was a fact, there'd be nothing to discuss. We're all here in this thread discussing our opinion about whether it's flawed or not, and giving reasons to why we hold those opinions. If reason-backed opinions aren't worth discussing, then game design isn't worth discussion.

[Sigreid]

If it was a fact, there'd be nothing to discuss. We're all here in this thread discussing our opinion about whether it's flawed or not, and giving reasons to why we hold those opinions. If reason-backed opinions aren't worth discussing, then game design isn't worth discussion.

Fair enough. Perhaps I've just spent too much time in MMOs that got wrecked by dev teams trying to keep randos on the internet happy.

[noob]

Fair enough. Perhaps I've just spent too much time in MMOs that got wrecked by dev teams trying to keep randos on the internet happy.

I dislike one thing about mmos: there is often no real difference between a mmo and a rpg that allows to play together except that the former will stop existing as soon as it stops granting enough money while with the latter as long as people are ready to host or just play single player it will exist.
The second thing is that most mmos does not encourage interaction sufficiently and ends up having tons of people farming monsters in their corner.
the third thing is the common lack of interesting plot or of impact on the world.

[Sigreid]

I dislike one thing about mmos: there is often no real difference between a mmo and a rpg that allows to play together except that the former will stop existing as soon as it stops granting enough money while with the latter as long as people are ready to host or just play single player it will exist.
The second thing is that most mmos does not encourage interaction sufficiently and ends up having tons of people farming monsters in their corner.
the third thing is the common lack of interesting plot or of impact on the world.

They've been good from time to time for hanging out and talking with friends across the globe while doing whatever. With the exception of Star Wars Galaxies. That was a really fun game until it got completely changed several times in quick succession.

[noob]

They've been good from time to time for hanging out and talking with friends across the globe while doing whatever.
Which is possible with regular rpgs that can be played in multiplayer
What I say is that the massive multiplayer online part is not important and is usually correlated with lower quality plot and the game dying as soon as it stops making money.
example: it is now impossible to play that star wars mmorpg you talked about.

[Sigreid]

Which is possible with regular rpgs that can be played in multiplayer
What I say is that the massive multiplayer online part is not important and is usually correlated with lower quality plot and the game dying as soon as it stops making money.
example: it is now impossible to play that star wars mmorpg you talked about.

Yep. Everything you say is true. They aren't the best games by far, and their main value is as one of many social platforms.

[Imbalance]

Received.

Maybe it would put a finer point on my dagger to say that, to me, D&D is what happens throughout a mutually shared experience; not what I expect to happen. It's wholly different in that regard from all the other rules-burdened tabletop games and rhythmic video games I've played before. Maybe that's the naivety of having come from that perspective. Maybe repeated shared experiences turn optimistic players into cynical grognards and I'll get there eventually. There is obviously a lot of deeply held idealism that I'm only scratching the surface of, and if the day comes where I change my mind (less in regards to any specific rule than the standpoint that one specific rule need not matter when the entire published product is intended as a guide), I'll humbly accept all the I-told-you-so's.

Here's another real example before I bow out:
As a guest at a table with friends who I've played some of those other games, both for fun and competitive stakes, my first serious D&D character is a human fighter, built with advice from the DM.
I joined the campaign underway, knowing little backstory, but caught up with setting and the mechanics rather quickly. Being the newb, I went out of my way not to step on any toes, but felt I had a good grasp of my role within the first few sessions and proved effective in those early combat encounters.
Perspective. I never took on the conceit that I needed to "shine" at this table. Moreover, I can point to instances over the last nine months where every other character in the party was better at being a fighter than my "optimized" fighter was. Hell, the rogue does it routinely, and he's an even more recent addition.
I could whine about the rules. I could easily blame the dice. I could blame myself, truthfully. But I'm much more likely to accept the freedom that this happened within the parameters that we agreed upon, and look forward to what happens next.

So, I guess I'm sorry? that terrible players will abuse a spell because none of the other healing spells or specialties seem as good, or that WotC needs a power creep hook to get RAW-bent players to buy more books, or that white room mechanics are all that matter to some people. I don't mind looking like an idiot, but it kinda feels like I'm being more provocative than I ever intended. It's just that I've seen a lot of provably bad design, and this particular instance doesn't strike me as such in the grand scheme of actually playing D&D.

[Frozenstep]

Fair enough. Perhaps I've just spent too much time in MMOs that got wrecked by dev teams trying to keep randos on the internet happy.

I can totally understand that. Too many devs don't understand the difference between being in touch with the community and letting people from the community control them.

[Willie the Duck]

I can totally understand that. Too many devs don't understand the difference between being in touch with the community and letting people from the community control them.

I think we're all pretty safe from the 5e dev team noticing this thread and taking action. :smalltongue:

[Contrast]

So, I guess I'm sorry? that terrible players will abuse a spell because none of the other healing spells or specialties seem as good, or that WotC needs a power creep hook to get RAW-bent players to buy more books, or that white room mechanics are all that matter to some people. I don't mind looking like an idiot, but it kinda feels like I'm being more provocative than I ever intended. It's just that I've seen a lot of provably bad design, and this particular instance doesn't strike me as such in the grand scheme of actually playing D&D.

Terrible players will abuse the spell? I'm pretty sure that most of the people in this thread aren't particularly worried about 'terrible' players 'abusing' the spell in so much as...just regular players just using the spell as it was written. If you think players being grappled back and forth constitutes abuse would you agree that the spell should be errata'd to prevent that?

I am amused that you think they printed it to try and purposefully power creep to sell Xanathars. I'm personally of the opinion that the out of combat use was glossed over and entirely an accident. There's no way I believe they intentionally made the optimal healing strategy doing a grappling conga line.

I had a discussion on this forum recently where I was arguing that the Wish/Simulacrum combo should be errata'd out of the game somehow and was told that it was fine the way it was because every sensible DM would just ban a player from trying to do it. That argument makes no sense to me.

Regarding it not having a big impact in the grand scheme of things - I mentioned up thread that I play in a game in which the druid doesn't bother preparing Healing Spirit. I'm playing a glamour bard in that game with Inspiring Leader and honestly we rarely even get through our topped up THP. Why do I still think Healing Spirit is a problem? Because that game is easy and fun and light hearted and the DM isn't remotely trying to make it challenging. The problem with Healing Spirit isn't that it breaks all games, it's that it pretty much single handedly removes one the levers the DM could use to control how the game plays.

Someone else phrased this more eloquently earlier in the thread but I think it takes away more than it adds.

[Frozenstep]

Maybe it would put a finer point on my dagger to say that, to me, D&D is what happens throughout a mutually shared experience; not what I expect to happen. It's wholly different in that regard from all the other rules-burdened tabletop games and rhythmic video games I've played before. Maybe that's the naivety of having come from that perspective. Maybe repeated shared experiences turn optimistic players into cynical grognards and I'll get there eventually. There is obviously a lot of deeply held idealism that I'm only scratching the surface of, and if the day comes where I change my mind (less in regards to any specific rule than the standpoint that one specific rule need not matter when the entire published product is intended as a guide), I'll humbly accept all the I-told-you-so's.

A much cleaner stab.

I understand the viewpoint that specific rules don't need to matter when the entire system is a guide, but I can't agree with it. As a DM, I want to use a tabletop rpg system to craft an experience for my little group of friends. There's a lot of things I want from such a system, one of those things being that despite being just a guide, every thing that is given is carefully designed. That not only lets me always trust the system when something comes up that can be solved with rules written in the system, but helps me figure out what to do when things fall outside what it can handle.

If I wanted an experience that wasn't being designed for, then it wouldn't matter. But when the system has rules that seem to hurt the experience it was going for or just doesn't make sense, it speaks to carelessness in the design. I lose a little trust in the system, and know I need to maybe be ready to change the system to preserve the experience. That's not the end of the world, but it's not ideal either. There's so many other systems with a lot of care and thought put into them. Every mistake in the existing system makes me think about trying another system. Nothing is perfect, of course, but the sheer carelessness of designers not thinking about how healing spirit would work out of combat can feel downright insulting.

I'm not saying D&D is a bad system because a generalist nature-focused class can take one spell and make a specialized support-focused healing-focused build feel superfluous. I just think it was careless, and I will always call out careless design and like discussing it.



Here's another real example before I bow out:
As a guest at a table with friends who I've played some of those other games, both for fun and competitive stakes, my first serious D&D character is a human fighter, built with advice from the DM.
I joined the campaign underway, knowing little backstory, but caught up with setting and the mechanics rather quickly. Being the newb, I went out of my way not to step on any toes, but felt I had a good grasp of my role within the first few sessions and proved effective in those early combat encounters.
Perspective. I never took on the conceit that I needed to "shine" at this table. Moreover, I can point to instances over the last nine months where every other character in the party was better at being a fighter than my "optimized" fighter was. Hell, the rogue does it routinely, and he's an even more recent addition.
I could whine about the rules. I could easily blame the dice. I could blame myself, truthfully. But I'm much more likely to accept the freedom that this happened within the parameters that we agreed upon, and look forward to what happens next.

I say things are good if everyone feels like part of a team, if they feel like they have a role in how things play out and a part in most victories. Combat is unpredictable though, and dice will be dice. Sometimes you miss every hit, get crit over and over, and sometimes you make mistakes. All of those things are fine. What I don't find fine is if you're tempted to do what seems like silly things to play out your part better because of the parameters agreed upon (healing spirit conga lines being one...). A better system wouldn't need changes to avoid those temptations.



So, I guess I'm sorry? that terrible players will abuse a spell because none of the other healing spells or specialties seem as good, or that WotC needs a power creep hook to get RAW-bent players to buy more books, or that white room mechanics are all that matter to some people. I don't mind looking like an idiot, but it kinda feels like I'm being more provocative than I ever intended. It's just that I've seen a lot of provably bad design, and this particular instance doesn't strike me as such in the grand scheme of actually playing D&D.

This whole thread got a bit off topic I think. This was a thread about why people didn't like healing spirit, eventually becoming about why it was or wasn't balance or good design, and eventually ended up here with whether it matters in the grand scheme of things, that little things like this don't matter because the system is a guide... It kind of reads like "Hey, why do you hate X?" -> "I hate X because Y" -> "Hey man, why you gotta be hating you cynical grognards".

[OldTrees1]

Stabbing might be my specialty, but it would not surprise me to find someone who is better at it than me.

So, part of it is that I'm newer and learning and unafraid to be wrong. I'm not arguing to convince, but to explore the experiences that have lead to opinions I do not share. Perspective.

-snip for length but not TLDR-

But again, am I wrong?

Thank you for attempting to answer the question.

A) You are absolutely right that jealous between players after character generation should be handled OOC.
B) You are absolutely right that Healing Spirit might be appropriate or inappropriate base upon the table.
C) I was not convinced that a non specialist ought to be better at a specialization than a specialist. So I think that critique of the mechanical design still stands.
D) Healing Spirit in specific remains vastly stronger than the strong healing options as the party levels. Even though some of those strong healing options scale proportional to party level. So the specialist being inherently obsoleted by the non specialist is a mechanic at every level thereafter.
E) qupe's critique (the focus of this question) was just one of the critiques of Healing Spirit and those critiques as a whole invoked different levels of admiration vs disinterest vs dislike in Healing Spirit. So while the thread is titled "Hate", we both see that the negative reactions range from dislike to inherently dislike.
F) Now everyone has heard of the Rule 0 fallacy, and it could apply here or it could be circumnavigated. I hear you saying "if this is a mechanical problem, then it is a small enough problem that DMs can easily deal with it for their table" rather than "this mechanical critique is invalid / does not exist because the DM can fix it" so I don't think the Rule 0 fallacy applies to your stab.

Again, thank you for attempting to answer the question. It had been outstanding and ignored for too many pages and looked like a beehive / beartrap / etc. While your answer will not satisfy or convince everyone I am very satisfied/appreciative of your attempt.

PS: This was posted before I read your followup posts. I am going to go read them now.

[CantigThimble]

There are two slightly different games:
D&D 5e before healing spirit where there is some amount of out of combat healing available.

D&D with healing spirit, where there is so much more out of combat healing available that even in hard-as-nails combat-as-war games the party can pretty easily start every fight at full hp.

Now, the second game isn't necessarily bad, there are plenty of people and tables for which the difference is irrelevant or they prefer the second. However, there are also good reasons why people would prefer the first game, namely, if they like the particular strategy and challenge associated with resource depletion.

[stoutstien]

Anyone compiled a list of home fixes for healing spirit yet? seeing how people seem to disagree on which portion of it is more powerful, the in combat are out of combat, I'd be curious to see how different people have handled it.

[Man_Over_Game]

There are two slightly different games:
D&D 5e before healing spirit where there is some amount of out of combat healing available.

D&D with healing spirit, where there is so much more out of combat healing available that even in hard-as-nails combat-as-war games the party can pretty easily start every fight at full hp.

Now, the second game isn't necessarily bad, there are plenty of people and tables for which the difference is irrelevant or they prefer the second. However, there are also good reasons why people would prefer the first game, namely, if they like the particular strategy and challenge associated with resource depletion.

What's funny is that Healing Spirit is a level 2 spell. Not trying to ridicule you or anything, it just seems funny that your post could be translated as "Real men don't play past level 2".

[CantigThimble]

What's funny is that Healing Spirit is a level 2 spell. Not trying to ridicule you or anything, it just seems funny that your post could be translated as "Real men don't play past level 2".

Oh, I think we're using 'before' in two different ways. I meant before as in 'before Xanthar's came out'. Not 'before characters have access to healing spirit.'

[Man_Over_Game]

Oh, I think we're using 'before' in two different ways. I meant before as in 'before Xanthar's came out'. Not 'before characters have access to healing spirit.'

Oh, that makes a disappointing amount of sense.

Erm, disappointing in a good way.

You know what I mean.

[CantigThimble]

Oh, that makes a disappointing amount of sense.

Erm, disappointing in a good way.

You know what I mean.

"Dangit, this guy is reasonable. It would have been so much funnier if he was nuts!"

:smalltongue:

[qube]

So, I guess I'm sorry? that terrible players will abuse a spell because none of the other healing spells or specialties seem as good, or that WotC needs a power creep hook to get RAW-bent players to buy more booksthe thing is ... it's not power creep. If spell based healing should become better, - is a matter of oppinion.

The thing is, that the werewolf is now better at healing then the healing domain cleric - not that all healing becomes better and better. Now, since you note


Stabbing might be my specialty, but it would not surprise me to find someone who is better at it than me.

I never claimed that the healing domain cleric should be the penultimate healer (though one would expect it to be one of the best) -- but one would expect that the person who focusses on his specialization, is better, then someone who didn't.

It's not that the fighter archer should be the best ranged character ... but you'd expect 'm to be a better ranged character then the sword & shield fighter, no?

Or, to use your analogy: it's not so much that you should be the best stabber just because it's your speciality ... but when you get outstabbed by Ghandi ... perhaps something is off.

[Yuroch Kern]

Seriously, Healing Spirit gets a bad wrap, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. This seems very balanced for its level and purpose. What am I missing?


You can use it outside of combat and have every member of your party be healed by 10d6 HP each for the low price of a minute of spare time and a level 2 spell slot.

Yikes. I just saw this thread, looked up the spell, and...yikes again. This is why I tend to ignore splatbooks...

[strangebloke]

I think the shepherd druid can challenge the life cleric as the best combat healer with way less investment.

Need a seperate thread to complain about the OP abomination that is the shepherds druid.

And yet for some reason people still think that the moon druid is better.

[noob]

Need a seperate thread to complain about the OP abomination that is the shepherds druid.

And yet for some reason people still think that the moon druid is better.

The point of the moon druid is that it is the best damage sponge which is a fullcaster and people think fullcasters should not be as good at sponging damage as fighters.

[Kane0]

Anyone compiled a list of home fixes for healing spirit yet? seeing how people seem to disagree on which portion of it is more powerful, the in combat are out of combat, I'd be curious to see how different people have handled it.

Instead of healing once per turn, heal once per round.

[strangebloke]

Anyone compiled a list of home fixes for healing spirit yet? seeing how people seem to disagree on which portion of it is more powerful, the in combat are out of combat, I'd be curious to see how different people have handled it.

First of all I'm pretty sure that everyone I've seen has been complaining about the out of combat healing. So far, considering only the fixes that keep the spell usable, I've seen the following:

Make it grant 1d6 tHP per turn instead of healing
Allow it to heal a number of times equal to your casting stat times three.
Allow it to heal only once per round (How do you decide who gets healed though?)
Allow it to heal once per turn whenever an ally in the radius takes damage. So everyone can get healed for 10d6 iff they're getting hit a lot.



The point of the moon druid is that it is the best damage sponge which is a fullcaster and people think fullcasters should not be as good at sponging damage as fighters.

And it is good at being a damage sponge!

But, like... it can't cast spells in combat, and past like fifth level it doesn't really have good damage, and if it does have a spell its concentrating on, its going to lose it because its constantly taking damage because its AC is like 12.

Now, Moon druid as a multiclass for a barbarian or monk probably is overpowered, but that's a different question entirely.

[Karnitis]

I've only seen two druids, and they were both Moon, who were both OP (but also low level campaigns). First I've heard of Sheperds being broken. What's up with them?

[strangebloke]

I've only seen two druids, and they were both Moon, who were both OP (but also low level campaigns). First I've heard of Sheperds being broken. What's up with them?

This is a derail, but without going into too much detail:

Moon Druids are totally overpowered from levels 2-5, but after that they fall behind because their combat wildshapes don't get stronger at the same rate that the other melee martials do. They remain strong defensively, and they never run out of resources, but they lack big, powerful turns. They're still overpowered over an extremely long adventuring day, but past fifth level they're not so good in a single, ultra-deadly encounter.

Shepherds are strong from 2-4. Unicorn Spirit, which they get back on a short rest, can easily result in 10 to 20 in-combat healing for the whole party. Not bad!

Where they start getting crazy is level 6. That's where they (effectively) get to give every beast they summon the 'tough' feat, and also get to have their beasts have magical attacks. Conjure animals is already crazy good, but these bonuses push it over the top.

A normal wolf will have 11 HP.

shepherd 'mighty summoner' ability pushes this number up to 15.
shepherd 'bear spirit' ability pushes this up to 25.
conjure animals summons 8 of them, and they last for a whole hour so you can keep them around until the next short rest.


8 wolves with 25 HP is a Hard encounter for a fifth level party. Or, if you're a shepherd druid, its just one of your third level spells.

The key thing here is that most druids get rather anemic level 6 abilities. Magical attacks for moon, tiny movement bonuses for Land, hearth of light and shadow for dreams... nothing too impressive honestly.

[sambojin]

While people say that Druids don't often run out of slots, I will say that there's plenty of competition for both prepared spells and for slot usage. And concentration as well.

At lvl2 spells you'll usually want Enhance Ability (social encounters, skill challenges, grapplers), Flame Sphere (bread and butter damage boosting), Hold Person (amazing spell against humanoids), Pass without Trace (stealth encounters), Spike Growth (anti-horde) and maybe Darkvision or Spiderclimb (depending on party) all prepared whenever possible. That's 5-6 of your precious prepared spells accounted for.

In lvl3 slots, you'll almost always want Conjure Animals (good at more than just combat), Sleet Storm (anti-flyer and CC) and maybe Dispell Magic (because it does what it says). So that's another 3 prepared when possible. So that's 8-9 spells prepared, not including lvl1's, that you'd like to have prepared whenever you can, but probably already can't due to limitations.

Oh, and they all take concentration, so have fun deciding what you're doing and when. But it certainly won't be being great at melee combat, or shooting, or instant damage. But those other things, you can certainly do. With one cast of one spell, from a fairly low level slot. There's plenty of good ones in lvl1, and I'd probably add Plant Growth to lvl3, but it doesn't take concentration, though I think you get my point.

Every single one of these spells makes you good, maybe even "the best" at a thing for their slot level. And there's not a hell of a lot of slots to go around for any of them in particular either. Sure, you can upcast them, even when it's inefficient, but you probably won't.

So is having another spell as a Druid that makes you the "best" at a thing really that big of a deal? Well, yeah. But only because that thing is a very big and important thing that comes up all the time (HP loss).

But at least you can console yourself that they're not the best at another thing because of it..... Wow. This might not be the best design, to give a class some of the best-in-slot spells across 3-4 spell levels, as well as other fairly good abilities too. So, fair point I guess. Healing Spirit is about as broken as lots of other Druid stuff is, slightly more-so though.

Maybe just a first-in-gets-healed or a only-works-in-combat nerf would fix it. Maybe both of these. Because it's still not a bad healing spell, even with that. But druids *DO* have some pretty steady competition for prepared slots, so there is a trade-off of some kind. Which thing will you be the best at today?

[strangebloke]

While people say that Druids don't often run out of slots, I will say that there's plenty of competition for both prepared spells and for slot usage. And concentration as well.

At lvl2 spells you'll usually want Enhance Ability (social encounters, skill challenges, grapplers), Flame Sphere (bread and butter damage boosting), Hold Person (amazing spell against humanoids), Pass without Trace (stealth encounters), Spike Growth (anti-horde) and maybe Darkvision or Spiderclimb (depending on party) all prepared whenever possible. That's 5-6 of your precious prepared spells accounted for.

In lvl3 slots, you'll almost always want Conjure Animals (good at more than just combat), Sleet Storm (anti-flyer and CC) and maybe Dispell Magic (because it does what it says). So that's another 3 prepared when possible. So that's 8-9 spells prepared, not including lvl1's, that you'd like to have prepared whenever you can, but probably already can't due to limitations.

Oh, and they all take concentration, so have fun deciding what you're doing and when. But it certainly won't be being great at melee combat, or shooting, or instant damage. But those other things, you can certainly do. With one cast of one spell, from a fairly low level slot.

Every single one of these spells makes you good, maybe even "the best" at a thing for their slot level. And there's not a hell of a lot of slots to go around for any of them in particular either. Sure, you can upcast them, even when it's inefficient, but you probably won't.

So is having another spell as a Druid that makes you the "best" at a thing really that big of a deal? Well, yeah. But only because that thing is a very big and important thing that comes up all the time (HP loss).

But at least you can console yourself that they're not the best at another thing because of it..... Wow. This might not be the best design, to give a class some of the best-in-slot spells across 3-4 spell levels, as well as other fairly good abilities too. So, fair point I guess. Healing Spirit is about as broken as lots of other Druid stuff is, slightly more-so though.

Maybe just a first-in-gets-healed or a only-works-in-combat nerf would fix it. Maybe both of these. Because it's still not a bad healing spell, even with that. But druids *DO* have some pretty steady competition for prepared slots, so there is a trade-off of some kind. Which thing will you be the best at today?
The other things you're listing are pretty niche. Best at... climbing walls? Best at... granting darkvision? In days where those are likely to be important, darkvision/spider climb/enhance ability all might edge out HS... except that not all of them are likely to come up in one day? What, are you expecting a long series of social encounters followed by intense spelunking? Healing is, by comparison, something that's going to come up multiple times every day.

And the things about a lot of the spells you list, is that a lot of classes have them. So you wouldn't be the 'best' at granting darkvision, you'd just be 'as good' as the wizard, cleric, or whoever else prepares that spell.

[sambojin]

Fair enough, though I would say that the Cleric and the Wizard often won't have these spells prepared, because they're better at being the best at other stuff. Or at the very least, will enjoy the fact that the resource usage has been spread out a bit because you definitely do want them prepared as a Druid (you've got a lot of great spells, but also a lot of very niche and bad spells on your list as well).

The Spiderclimb and Darkvision thing is an example of the ok'ish niche fillers. Got a shooter or a Warlock or a Wizard in the party? Want to keep them pretty safe? Spiderclimb is often very nice to keep them out of harm's way while they blast/ping away, for a fair while, for a low level slot. And Darkvision is kinda lame, but there's a hell of a lot of variant humans around, and a lot of weirdness with the lighting rules in 5e, so sometimes it's just easier to say "you now have darkvision, problem solved". And yes, it doesn't take concentration, so it is sometimes a good party-pick for a given day, that's stopping you being good at something else.

Enhance Ability makes you the best at perception as well. You will almost alway be the best at that. Maybe insight too. That's useful in social and adventuring encounters. The fact that you don't always need to be, so can start slapping it on other people easily for things like initiative or whatever does make you the best at something. Others can cast it, but it's you who probably will on a fairly regular basis (or should be doing so).

I'm not really defending Healing Spirit. Just putting it into context within the class that's most likely to cast it. I mean, people dip three levels of a class so they can be good at something. So anyone can be good at healing...... It's still a badly designed overpowered spell. I'll agree with you on that.

[Theodoxus]

WotC should have just plagiarized themselves... 4E's Spirit of Healing is just better all around...

Spirit of Healing (Level 2 Conjuration)
A glowing figure appears at your command, casting an aura of health over your allies.
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 60 feet
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Effect: You conjure a spirit of healing within range. When an ally in the spirit’s square or adjacent to it hits an enemy, that ally regains hit points equal to twice your Wisdom modifier. As a move action, you can move the spirit 20 feet.


It heals better, it'd be hard to pull off out of combat shenanigans ("I declare Bill the Fighter is my enemy and punch him for 1 point, and heal 6 woo!"), and it's a cleric spell :smallwink:

[qube]

It heals better, it'd be hard to pull off out of combat shenanigans ("I declare Bill the Fighter is my enemy and punch him for 1 point, and heal 6 woo!"), and it's a cleric spell :smallwink:don't know if you can do that in 5E. in 3/3.5 you could, but not in 4E
(there was a rule preventing shenanigans (like the bag of rats trick) - you couldn't cleave a rat to deal the autmatic damage to Orcus)

[stoutstien]

WotC should have just plagiarized themselves... 4E's Spirit of Healing is just better all around...

Spirit of Healing (Level 2 Conjuration)
A glowing figure appears at your command, casting an aura of health over your allies.
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 60 feet
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Effect: You conjure a spirit of healing within range. When an ally in the spirit’s square or adjacent to it hits an enemy, that ally regains hit points equal to twice your Wisdom modifier. As a move action, you can move the spirit 20 feet.


It heals better, it'd be hard to pull off out of combat shenanigans ("I declare Bill the Fighter is my enemy and punch him for 1 point, and heal 6 woo!"), and it's a cleric spell :smallwink:

Would be interesting to have a reactive concentration healing spell.
Interesting combo potential with the order domain.
reworded it could act like a leech life spell.