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BRC
2007-10-02, 10:41 AM
In the latest session our party was having some trouble with a fight against 2 sheild guardians, so I had my character ( a cleric) use stone shape to create a pit under the sheild guardians, sending them falling down and leaving them stuck there until we found a big rock and pushed it in to crush them.

Now, this trick is very effective, but I have a feeling that if I use it too much my DM will start designing encounters where it won't work, he's not the type to say "You can't do that", but He'll proably keep us away from grounded enemies fighting on stone.
my question is, do I use this, or any other similarly cheesy trick, as often as I can, or do I not use it so my DM dosn't guard against it, then save it for the tough encounters?

Alex12
2007-10-02, 10:54 AM
I don't know the exact specifics of your situation (DM, etc.) so I'll go at this from an in-character perspective.
A smart fighter (not the class, but in the context of "one who fights") likes to keep a few tricks in reserve to surprise his enemies. I mean, there's always the chance that the BBEG is somehow gathering information on your tactics (scrying, spies, etc.) so if he develops a counter to your most commonly-used methods, you can hit him with something that will surprise him. You yourself said that your DM will probably counter it if you use it too often. Which would you rather use an extremely effective tactic on, if you could choose either one but not both? Some random creature/group of creatures that poses little threat to you, or something that would be genuinely hard to kill and actually threaten you seriously?

truemane
2007-10-02, 10:56 AM
It depends a lot on the kind of game you're playing in. If you are indeed correct that, should you do it too often, you will find yourself unable to use it, I would save it.

Because, once your DM gets sick of it, you'll most likely never be able to do it ever again.

So I'd keep it in my bag of tricks. I've always found DM's are FAR less likely to pick on one creative tactic if the PC in question has four or five of them at his displosal, and mixes and matches as necessary.

And it's good drama too. You never see guys in the movies figuring out the one nifty tactic and then using it over and over again. No. They save the cool stuff for the BBEG.

:)

Kurald Galain
2007-10-02, 10:57 AM
I would suggest that the victims get a ref save to jump out of the area. After all, the stone does not blink out of existence, but reshapes itself, which takes a few seconds.

Bender
2007-10-02, 10:57 AM
What prevented the shield guardians from simply climbing back out? supposing you're level 10 (as it's a CR 10 encounter) you can make a pit of 10 ft deep for 2 large creatures. A shield guardian is 9 ft high, so it shouldn't have a problem getting out (not necessarily until after a few rounds though).
It would probably deserve a reflex save not to fall in anyway.

Your DM has plenty of ways around this (stone might only be a surface layer of 2 ft, which might cause your foes to fall prone on a failed balance or something), so better to catch your DM off guard if you want it to be effective.

Dausuul
2007-10-02, 10:59 AM
In the latest session our party was having some trouble with a fight against 2 sheild guardians, so I had my character ( a cleric) use stone shape to create a pit under the sheild guardians, sending them falling down and leaving them stuck there until we found a big rock and pushed it in to crush them.

Now, this trick is very effective, but I have a feeling that if I use it too much my DM will start designing encounters where it won't work, he's not the type to say "You can't do that", but He'll proably keep us away from grounded enemies fighting on stone.
my question is, do I use this, or any other similarly cheesy trick, as often as I can, or do I not use it so my DM dosn't guard against it, then save it for the tough encounters?

I'd just go ahead and use it whenever it seems indicated. Saving it for boss fights in hopes that the DM will forget about it a) smacks of metagaming, and b) undercuts the DM's effort to make challenging and memorable boss fights.

Bear in mind that this tactic can not only be foiled by flying enemies or a non-stone floor, but also by enemies that can, y'know, climb out of a pit. :smallbiggrin:

...also, after looking at the Stone Shape rules, I'm not seeing how you managed to make a pit big enough for two shield guardians. 10 cubic feet plus 1/level is nowhere near enough for a Large-sized creature. Remember, that's 10 cubic feet, not a 10-foot cube. A 10-foot cube is 1,000 cubic feet.

BRC
2007-10-02, 11:02 AM
To tell the truth, I think the DM may have misinterprited the spell, my original intent was to stall them for a turn or two to give us some breathing room, but then the DM says I just droppoed them down a 30 foot pit, a quick create water spell made the sides slick so they couldn't climb out, and then it was just a matter of finding a large rock.

Was it legal? proably not, am I complaining? no.

Bender
2007-10-02, 11:05 AM
...also, after looking at the Stone Shape rules, I'm not seeing how you managed to make a pit big enough for two shield guardians. 10 cubic feet plus 1/level is nowhere near enough for a Large-sized creature. Remember, that's 10 cubic feet, not a 10-foot cube. A 10-foot cube is 1,000 cubic feet.

I misread that as well:smallredface:. In fact 1000 cubic feet would barely suffice.

Bender
2007-10-02, 11:06 AM
Was it legal? proably not, am I complaining? no.

In that case, using it more than rarely or in a boss fight will make your DM look up the rules and see it won't work

Keld Denar
2007-10-02, 11:12 AM
You might want to check the casting time of stone shape as well...I'm reletively sure that it is NOT a standard action to cast (grumble grumble d20srd is blocked at work grumble). Also, I believe in the discription that you have to "shape" the stone with your hands, it doesn't just warp and contort to your will. That really kills the combat useability of the spell.

Its still a great utility spell, you can either open or close any door just by stoneshaping the hinges. That alone makes it a single spell thats as effective as your choice of knock and arcane lock combined.

psychoticbarber
2007-10-02, 11:34 AM
Stone Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm)

It does say it's a Standard Action, thought it does also say


Arcane Material Component

Soft clay, which must be worked into roughly the desired shape of the stone object and then touched to the stone while the verbal component is uttered.

So you be the judge.

BRC
2007-10-02, 11:37 AM
Hmm, since the stone object in question was a path on a mountain, I could have made the clay into a flat surface then poked a pit in it, then touch it to the ground which would technically be the same object.

Saph
2007-10-02, 11:43 AM
Stone Shape affects 10 cubic feet of stone plus 1 cubic foot per level. That means, using the spell you can make a 10' by 10' wide pit to a depth of . . . about two inches, maybe three.

In light of this, I recommend not using the tactic again, since it shouldn't have worked in the first place. Unless the goal is to make the enemies stub their toes. :)

- Saph

Roderick_BR
2007-10-02, 11:50 AM
That's actually an effective tactic for non-flyers/climbers/furrowers.
Save it to surprise new foes. An smart enemy may keep track of your tactics and plan ways to beat you.
*Casts stone shape*
*BBEF floats over hole, and laughs at you* "Do you think I'd fall for that trick you've been doing over and over with my minions?"

BardicDuelist
2007-10-02, 12:04 PM
Generally, my DM and I have an agreement: He will avoid throwing encounters that I should not be able to win at me, and I will not use cheesy ways to win them anyway. Basically, I will not be cheesy unless there is no other way to beat the encounter, or at least if there is no other reliable way to win.

My advice is to save things like this for times when you need it, not just for any random encounter.

From an IC perspective, why would you waste valuable resources on an easy fight? You would generally save them for the tough fights that threaten your life (you don't end a simple misunderstanding with shots to the groin/throat/back of the head because the misunderstanding isn't worth it. If somone were trying to kill you, you would use every dirty trick you had to survive).

kamikasei
2007-10-02, 12:09 PM
Since it looks like it shouldn't actually have worked, I suggest telling the DM this and apologizing for the slip-up. Better than having him look the spell up himself and suspect you of trying to bamboozle him.

BRC
2007-10-02, 12:12 PM
Since it looks like it shouldn't actually have worked, I suggest telling the DM this and apologizing for the slip-up. Better than having him look the spell up himself and suspect you of trying to bamboozle him.

There was no bamboozleing on my part, the conversation went like this:

Me: Could I use stone shape to create a pit in front of us to stall them
DM: you could create a pit underneath them
Me: Sweet, I do that
DM: okay, they fall 30 feet and take X damage.
Me: I'll cast create water to make the sides slick so they can't get out.