Create Homonculus is less crappy for necromancers

[Dalebert]

You can increase the hp of your homonculus (current and max) by spending up to half your hit dice. It gains what you roll plus your con bonus for each die. Nice!

Oh, but wait. Your max hit points are reduced by that amount. Oh, but wait. You're a necromancer, so they actually aren't due to Inured to Undeath!

Does this make a Create homonculus worthwhile when otherwise it almost certainly isn't? I mean, without boosting its hp, it's barely tougher than a standard familiar. Yes, it can attack but it's attack is weak in tier 3. If anything it's just a slightly less squishy scout.

Is it a better scout though? I think so! It says it can convey what it senses to its master and there's none of that lingo about how the wizard has to spend his action to perceive through it. There's also no distance limit. For a 6th level spell slot, which doesn't require recasting daily assuming it stays alive, you are sort of a chain warlock.

[OvisCaedo]

I mean, you're still spending up to half of your hit dice each day to make a fairly untalented scout more durable. I can't disagree with the premise of it being BETTER on necromancers, but I also still just don't feel sold on the spell being good at all. I guess unlimited range telepathy makes for decent scouting even if your weird little thing can't really sneak.

[MaxWilson]

I think the necromancer trick is sort of interesting, but I wouldn't use it personally. It's good even without that, though not good enough to waste a spell pick on. (I.e. I'd use it only if I got it from an enemy wizard's spellbook or something.)

A no-concentration, unlimited-range intelligent recon-and-communication platform is valuable regardless of how many HP are attached to it.

[Dalebert]

I've talked myself into it at this point. Here are my thoughts.

1) my 6th level slot is going to be blown on Create Undead most days until I get more slots, and it will be a while. The homonculus can be made during downtime and won't need casting every day (hopefully). So I don't really need other spells for a while.
2) the fact that it's intelligent is huge.
3) the fact it has hands is huge! Can administer a potion or activate a magic item.
4) Can scout unlimited distances and convey its senses without an action for things like dimension door to somewhere out of my sight.
5) Understands all the languages I understand for spying.
EDIT: 6) My necromancer rarely takes dmg and hardly ever needs to spend his hit dice so it's probably more worthwhile to beef up his homonculus enough that it could perhaps take one hit and flee, saving me having to make another.

Actually, I thought Create Undead only had costly components to create; not to renew control. It's looking a little less appealing now that I know that. Still think this spell is worth learning. It's a lot of bang for a cast-during-downtime spell.

[EdenIndustries]

Actually, I thought Create Undead only had costly components to create; not to renew control. It's looking a little less appealing now that I know that. Still think this spell is worth learning. It's a lot of bang for a cast-during-downtime spell.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see where Create Undead says the components are consumed so I think it's a one-time cost whether you're creating or renewing.

[Sigreid]

My wizard uses his homunculus to be able to keep tabs on and communicate with home at will. I dont think it was ever meant to be a scout or battle pet.

[NaughtyTiger]

Wouldnt fly at my table. The hit point boost comes from the wiz. If the wizards HP doesnt drop, then the homuncs doesnt gain them.

I do like that it is closer to old school familiars, power in return for great cost.

[Dalebert]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see where Create Undead says the components are consumed so I think it's a one-time cost whether you're creating or renewing.

I think I'm the one who missed that. Much better. I'm back to probably casting it every day.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Homonculous can understand languages and doesn't have a distance limitation for the telepathy effect. It's basically supposed to be a Familiar you leave at home or in a social place. Having more HP isn't going to change when you use it, how often you use it, or whether or not it survives.

That being said, it's still worth the investment, by a long shot. Permanent boosts are rare in 5e, so take what you can get.

[NaughtyTiger]

The Homonculous can understand languages and doesn't have a distance limitation for the telepathy effect. It's basically supposed to be a Familiar you leave at home or in a social place. Having more HP isn't going to change when you use it, how often you use it, or whether or not it survives.

That being said, it's still worth the investment, by a long shot. Permanent boosts are rare in 5e, so take what you can get.

it also doesn't require you to give up your own senses or action to do the remote sensing. (which is how i interpreted warlock's "Voice of the Chain Master")

[Sigreid]

A fun combo I've been thinking of since the homonculus can't speak. Create a simulacrum of yourself. You and the simulacrum each create a homonculus. Now, you keep its with you and leave yours and the simulacrum back home. BAM, 2 way communicators without your homonculus having to write everything out.

[Dalebert]

Having more HP isn't going to change when you use it, how often you use it, or whether or not it survives.

I don't see how you can conclude that given all the benefits I listed. It can administer healing potions or do other object interactions without any action on your part. If it has an extra 25 hp, that means the enemy wizard can't casually toss a single magic missile or two in its direction and be done with it. It at least takes an expenditure of actions and/or other resources to dispatch. It could survive a single hit and flee while scouting if it gets seen. It could be turned invisible and do a significant scouting of a dungeon, maybe even opening doors and such that an animal familiar can't do.

I wouldn't bother to beef it up if I had to give up my own max hp but for just giving up HD which I almost never use? It's a trivial cost.

[MaxWilson]

If it has an extra 25 hp, that means the enemy wizard can't casually toss a single magic missile or two in its direction and be done with it.

Inspiring Leader can do this already though (as can a shepherd druid's bear spirit), and it doesn't damage you in the process.

Remember the necromancer still takes damage from boosting the homunculus's hit points. It's not free, even aside from the HD cost.

[NaughtyTiger]

Remember the necromancer still takes damage from boosting the homunculus's hit points. It's not free, even aside from the HD cost.

what about dalebert's point that necro's hit points can't be reduced. the spell description explicitly treats the homuncs HP increase as a seperate statement from the wizard's HP decrease.
it does not say the homunc gains the HP that the wizard lost.

i wouldn't allow it, but i think it's RAW

[MaxWilson]

what about dalebert's point that necro's hit points can't be reduced. the spell description explicitly treats the homuncs HP increase as a seperate statement from the wizard's HP decrease.
it does not say the homunc gains the HP that the wizard lost.

i wouldn't allow it, but i think it's RAW

I agree that it's RAW, and I'd even allow it since the homunculus is gaining HP the wizard lost. The only special thing the necromancer gets is that he can heal back up to full health afterwards.

Huh. I may have misremembered. I could have sworn there was a damage clause in addition to the reduction in max HP clause.

Well, then the above is how I'd houserule Create Homunculus: whenever you boost the homunculus's HP, you take damage AND your Max HP is reduced. Result: Necromancer takes damage but can heal it. For everyone else it's still effectively the same as the Xanathar's version.

[Dalebert]

Inspiring Leader can do this already though (as can a shepherd druid's bear spirit), and it doesn't damage you in the process.

Oh, I forgot I can do Inspiring Leader as well! I have that for my undead. May as well use that too. Damn, gonna name my homonculus Hulk!