OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[hroþila]

Hilgya (and maybe Minrah?) must be up to something.

Anyway, go get them, Wormie! You're doing great!

[Hardcore]

Heh, I thought only Belkar would be affected, as he is after all, a "monster".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

...

I'm actually surprised the universe didn't provide V with another chance to use the cat-retrieving version once more (by, say, having Roy fall while holding the cat, and the hand grabbing them both).


Hilgya (and maybe Minrah?) must be up to something.
Covert infiltration, maybe?

Grey Wolf

[remetagross]

Bigby's Roy Retrieving Hand!

Vaarsuvius does always come prepared :smalltongue:

[Uniqueorn]

Monsters are just a point of view, aren't they?

[Rinion]

Actually being caught mid-fall must be a pleasant change of pace for Roy.

[knag]

"whacking the worm" :belkar:

LOL

[schmunzel]

Monsters are just a point of view, aren't they?

It certainly seems that way.

Poor Durkon - forgotten already
now I know why he looks so unhappy in that panel

sch

[Resileaf]

Oh my god, the Exarch's face in the second panel is just perfect.

[Erzengel]

The adventures of copy/paste Roy!

[TwistedSultan]

In a bit of a pickle now aren't they.

I think the plan for Hilgya would be to get her into the moot/meet stealthily, and have her disrupt from the inside before the vampires know what's up.

[hroþila]

Monsters are just a point of view, aren't they?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DarthV.png We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not?

[Arkku]

I kind of liked the worm (heh) until it targeted Mr. Scruffy with mass hold monster.

[Fyraltari]

Summoners, man, they’re the worst.

So the Orange barrier does not stop spells, good to know.

[Ron Miel]

Heh, I thought only Belkar would be affected, as he is after all, a "monster".

I'm not well versed in game mechanics, but shouldn't it be hold person instead?

[Rinion]

Summoners, man, they’re the worst.

So the Orange barrier does not stop spells, good to know.

It does, doesn't it? The Exarch's poking his hand out of the barrier to cast. V's Force Cage spell was blocked on the previous page.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not well versed in game mechanics, but shouldn't it be hold person instead?

Hold monster is a broader version of hold person - literally "like hold person, but affects all living creatures".

It does, doesn't it? The Exarch's poking his hand out of the barrier to cast. V's Force Cage spell was blocked on the previous page.

Indeed

Grey Wolf

[warmachine]

The Exarch cast a non-standard Invisibility Purge. When he ran through the orange barrier, it would have dispelled a standard Invisibility Purge, which is centred on the caster, so Haley's and V's Invisibility would no longer be suppressed.

Also, "...keep whacking the worm. It's obviously what you're best at." Gotta love Belkar.

[Syncrogti]

"whacking the worm" :belkar:

LOL

So Belkar, haha.

[Fyraltari]

It does, doesn't it? The Exarch's poking his hand out of the barrier to cast. V's Force Cage spell was blocked on the previous page.

You are right I missed that his hand was out of the barrier because of the black aura, I thought we were seeing it through.

Follow up, how come Durkon can talk when Hold but Roy can’t?

[leon666]

"Ah, yes, of course" - :vaarsuvius:

[GregTD]

Snicker

From the SRD for Hold Person:
"Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect."

So I guess Durkon made his second save attempt

[Grey_Wolf_c]

how come Durkon can talk when Hold but Roy can’t?

You get a saving throw on your turn. Durkon probably made his, Roy did not.

Grey Wolf

[2D8HP]

So very V that she has to be reminded not to use an immobile comrade as a weapon!

[DougTheHead]

how come Durkon can talk when Hold but Roy can’t?

Durkon made his save and was not held, Roy failed his.

[Fyraltari]

Ah so they all failed the first one, Durkon made the second and Roy hasn’t. Okay.

[Resileaf]

Ah so they all failed the first one, Durkon made the second and Roy hasn’t. Okay.

What second save? Durkon made his first save successfully.

[Hotu]

I wonder if this is setting up Belkars death- but then again someone always says that whenever Belkar is in trouble

[HandofShadows]

Evil says it's "not fair" when they lose fairly, but they never say that when they win UNfairly. Of course that's because the are Eviiiil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What second save? Durkon made his first save successfully.

I thought he had not, but I went back and checked: yes, he did. You can see him frowning and looking back when Belkar's sentence is interrupted half way, and you can see him changing expression from that when the rock hits them. He was never paralyzed in the first place, as you said.

Grey Wolf

[GreatWyrmGold]

V, there's politely listening to your friends' ideas and thinking about whether they're good or not, and then there's taking them seriously even when they're completely stupid. You're in a party with Elan and Belkar, you should have figured this out ages ago. Or at least pages.

[Arkku]

By the way, is this the first time a "regular" earth elemental appears (or, at least, is fought by the party), as opposed to Redcloak's atomic elementals?

[Resileaf]

By the way, is this the first time a "regular" earth elemental appears (or, at least, is fought by the party), as opposed to Redcloak's atomic elementals?

Now I actually wonder what would happen if Redcloak summoned an uranium elemental.

[bc56]

By the way, is this the first time a "regular" earth elemental appears (or, at least, is fought by the party), as opposed to Redcloak's atomic elementals?

I think this is the first time a non-periodic elemental shows up.
Although I don't want to reread the entire comic to be sure.

[Fyraltari]

What second save? Durkon made his first save successfully.
Why didn’t he dodge the rock, then ?

Now I actually wonder what would happen if Redcloak summoned an uranium elemental.
It would be very tiny in order not to exceed critical mass and instantly explode.

[i6uuaq]

They're having a little more trouble with this fight than I thought they would. With the relative power levels available, I thought it would be a curbstomping.

[hroþila]

Why didn’t he dodge the rock, then ?
He appears to have been distracted by Belkar suddenly stopping mid-sentence and everybody just freezing (plus I imagine it wasn't his turn), but note that he's clearly moving his eyebrows in that panel and the rest of his body in the next one. There's no room (or need) for a second save.
edit: I too thought he had been paralyzed like everybody else at first.

[RickDaily12]

Oh man. I don't know why exactly, but Elan's face in particular when the boulder smashes the party is hilarious

It's just so calm and casual under the circumstances.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why didn’t he dodge the rock, then ?

Because in D&D there isn't a "dodge" check? You might as well ask why the worm didn't dodge the hammer. The elemental throwing the rock got a high enough "to hit" roll that it exceeded Durkon's AC, and thus it was a hit. Or if it is a AoE, Durkon missed his reflex save, which is hardly surprising for a dwarven cleric in heavy armour.

Grey Wolf

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oof, poor Roy. For a moment there I thought that was going to go much worse.

[Fyraltari]

He appears to have been distracted by Belkar suddenly stopping mid-sentence and everybody just freezing (plus I imagine it wasn't his turn), but note that he's clearly moving his eyebrows in that panel and the rest of his body in the next one. There's no room (or need) for a second save.
edit: I too thought he had been paralyzed like everybody else at first.
Oh, okay.

Because in D&D there isn't a "dodge" check? You might as well ask why the worm didn't dodge the hammer. The elemental throwing the rock got a high enough "to hit" roll that it exceeded Durkon's AC, and thus it was a hit. Or if it is a AoE, Durkon missed his reflex save, which is hardly surprising for a dwarven cleric in heavy armour.

Grey Wolf

I mean, wasn’t the worm’s spell there to help the elemental boulder them? I had assumed they would have avoided that without it.

[danielxcutter]

Evil says it's "not fair" when they lose fairly, but they never say that when they win UNfairly. Of course that's because the are Eviiiil.

To be fair, that kind of thing is somewhat alignment-independent unless someone pulls major BS


Because in D&D there isn't a "dodge" check? You might as well ask why the worm didn't dodge the hammer. The elemental throwing the rock got a high enough "to hit" roll that it exceeded Durkon's AC, and thus it was a hit. Or if it is a AoE, Durkon missed his reflex save, which is hardly surprising for a dwarven cleric in heavy armour.

Grey Wolf

This.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm actually surprised the universe didn't provide V with another chance to use the cat-retrieving version once more (by, say, having Roy fall while holding the cat, and the hand grabbing them both).
Or having them knocked off in the same direction.


I'm not well versed in game mechanics, but shouldn't it be hold person instead?
Not if you wanted to target Mr. Scruffy. (Or if your stat block only gives you hold monster, and I'm not sure what this giant death-worm's stats say.



The Exarch cast a non-standard Invisibility Purge. When he ran through the orange barrier, it would have dispelled a standard Invisibility Purge, which is centred on the caster, so Haley's and V's Invisibility would no longer be suppressed.
I just checked. All versions of invisibility purge I checked (3.5, PF, 5e) say that the sphere negates all forms of invisibility, but only the 3.5 and PF versions specified that the invisibility was merely suppressed while in the area. (5e allows a save, but rogues aren't proficient in Wisdom saves and Blackwing is kinda foolish, so that's only one bad roll required.)



I think this is the first time a non-periodic elemental shows up.
Although I don't want to reread the entire comic to be sure.
We've seen non-periodic elementals in cutaway gags, at least. Like that ranch elemental V spent time adventuring with.



Why didn’t he dodge the rock, then?
Because his Dexterity isn't that good, I assume. He has plate armor for that; besides, you don't even add your Dexterity modifier to AC anymore in heavy armor.


It would be very tiny in order not to exceed critical mass and instantly explode.
It depends on details like shape and isotope. A spherical uranium element in a vacuum would have a critical mass between 15 and 52 kg, depending on isotope ratios; non-spherical elementals would have higher critical masses because it's harder to get neutrons from one end of the creature to the other.
A human body (the archetypical Medium creature) is roughly 0.06 to 0.07 cubic meters (60-60 thousand cubic centimeters) in volume; one made of solid uranium would weigh over a ton (either kind). Going from Medium to Tiny would reduce volume by a factor of 64, reducing mass to roughly 18-20 kilograms—which is safely below U-235's critical mass, but just above U-233's. A sufficiently spindly Tiny U-233 Elemental could probably avoid exploding, until it curled up into a ball.
...Actually, that sounds like a pretty potent summon. A uranium elemental just above its spherical critical mass, but shaped in such a way that it doesn't go critical until it wants to?

[Peelee]

Now I actually wonder what would happen if Redcloak summoned an uranium elemental.

Given the range limitations, I don't think we ever see a uranium elememtal.

[Kish]

proficient in Wisdom saves [...]besides, you don't even add your Dexterity modifier to AC anymore in heavy armor.
Gah, 5ed .

[Peelee]

Kish gets double proficiency bonus with advantage on any OotS post mentioning 5e.

[Giscard76]

Some Great Punch lines lately!

We have a cleric again, we can fix stuff like this!!

Ah, yes, of course.

[Kish]

Kish gets double proficiency bonus with advantage on any OotS post mentioning 5e.
I hate you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, wasn’t the worm’s spell there to help the elemental boulder them? I had assumed they would have avoided that without it.

Some of them might have, like Belkar. You are also assuming that the worm possesses perfect information, which I don't see a reason why it would have.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I hate you.

Too bad, still like you. :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

We've seen non-periodic elementals in cutaway gags, at least. Like that ranch elemental V spent time adventuring with. And a Gold Elemental who gets all worked up when people offer them pieces of their relatives as payment, for some reason.



It depends on details like shape and isotope. A spherical uranium element in a vacuum would have a critical mass between 15 and 52 kg, depending on isotope ratios; non-spherical elementals would have higher critical masses because it's harder to get neutrons from one end of the creature to the other.
A human body (the archetypical Medium creature) is roughly 0.06 to 0.07 cubic meters (60-60 thousand cubic centimeters) in volume; one made of solid uranium would weigh over a ton (either kind). Going from Medium to Tiny would reduce volume by a factor of 64, reducing mass to roughly 18-20 kilograms—which is safely below U-235's critical mass, but just above U-233's. A sufficiently spindly Tiny U-233 Elemental could probably avoid exploding, until it curled up into a ball.
...Actually, that sounds like a pretty potent summon. A uranium elemental just above its spherical critical mass, but shaped in such a way that it doesn't go critical until it wants to?
First, I’m proud to have accidentally gotten the right D&D size classification.
Second, that sounds awesome, if very dangerous for the caster. The Elemental would also have some kind of permanent poisonous area of effect too, no?

[Sniccups]

Kish gets double proficiency bonus with advantage on any OotS post mentioning 5e.

Nice! Although if the comic were to use 5e, the plot would have gone very differently, because there wouldn't be anything stopping V from learning teleport.

[137beth]

So easy to forget about Durkon after we spent all book getting him back!

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, okay.


I mean, wasn’t the worm’s spell there to help the elemental boulder them? I had assumed they would have avoided that without it.
Mass hold monster, like its lesser cousins, imposes the Paralyzed condition. The Paralyzed condition, among other things, imposes an effective Dexterity score of 0 on a character. This means that instead of a character's normal Dexterity modifier, that character applies -5 to things to which they apply their Dexterity modifiers. Characters apply their Dexterity modifiers to, among other things, AC, which is the number that an attack roll must beat for the attack to hit, and Reflex saves, which are used to avoid area attacks. Characters using their Dexterity to avoid attacks, or making Reflex saves, is often portrayed visually in The Order of the Stick as their dodging the attacks. However, there is no Dodge action (though confusingly, there is a Dodge bonus type which also applies to AC and is distinguished from a use of Dexterity by the sound effect "dodge") - what is mechanically going on is that the attacker failed to hit a target number, or the character reacted unconsciously.

In other words, the spell-like ability did make it easier for the elementals to hit the Order, but you've got the under-the-hood mechanics backwards. Or maybe d20 does, and it should have made dodging an affirmative action.

[Sir_Norbert]

And a Gold Elemental who gets all worked up when people offer them pieces of their relatives as payment, for some reason.

Gold is not a non-periodic element.

[D.One]

The Exarch cast a non-standard Invisibility Purge. When he ran through the orange barrier, it would have dispelled a standard Invisibility Purge, which is centred on the caster, so Haley's and V's Invisibility would no longer be suppressed.

Maybe... but if only V and Haley were invisible, and if they were using regular 2nd level Invisibility instead of Improved 4th level one, the invisibility would have been dispelled anyway after they attacked for the first time.

Those are two big ifs. (Pun totally intended)

V has Improved Invisibility, and thus it seems reasonable to use it, at least on Haley, who benefits most with sneak attacks (I know the worm, if undead, is immune to that, but they didn't know exactly which kind of enemies they might fight besides the vampires when they devised the strategy).

On the other (non-Bigby) hand ("OTONBH"), they might expect for something like Invisibility Purge or Dispell Magic (since V remarks Invisibility is a tactic to be expected at their level), and thus conclude that it was better to save 4th level slots for other spells.

[Fyraltari]

Mass hold monster, like its lesser cousins, imposes the Paralyzed condition. The Paralyzed condition, among other things, imposes an effective Dexterity score of 0. This means that instead of a character's normal Dexterity modifier, that character applies -5. Characters apply their Dexterity modifiers to, among other things, AC, which is the number that an attack roll must beat to hit, and Reflex saves, which are used to avoid area attacks. Characters using their Dexterity to avoid attacks, or making Reflex saves, is often portrayed visually in The Order of the Stick as their dodging the attacks. However, there is no Dodge action - what is mechanically going on is that the attacker failed to hit a target number, or the character reacted unconsciously.

In other words, the spell-like ability did make it easier for the elementals to hit the Order, but you've got the under-the-hood mechanics backwards. Or maybe d20 does, and it should have made dodging an affirmative action.
Nah, it makes sense as it is. I didn’t think that dodge was a particular action (Haley wouldn’t need to Evade, then). But that was the best way to phrase that I could think of.

Gold is not a non-periodic element.
Duh. I should have stopped to think.

[denthor]

Why didn’t he dodge the rock, then ?

It would be very tiny in order not to exceed critical mass and instantly explode.

The mechanics.

When throwing a large rock you can hit a target (enemy ) and the armor class of the enemy or an area armor class 15 usually less then the enemy armor class.

Hitting an area affects everyone in the area.

[D.One]

On the other (non-Bigby) hand ("OTONBH"), they might expect for something like Invisibility Purge or Dispell Magic (since V remarks Invisibility is a tactic to be expected at their level), and thus conclude that it was better to save 4th level slots for other spells.

Aaaand I just now thought of a tactic for a Wizard:

Cast Improved Invisibility (or Invisibility) and cast a Contingency with Improved Invisibility that activates if the first Invisibility is dispelled (but that wouldn't work against Invisibility Purge, I think).

[Larre Gannd]

Some of them might have, like Belkar. You are also assuming that the worm possesses perfect information, which I don't see a reason why it would have.

Grey Wolf

Also, from a non dnd standpoint, the elementals were behind them.

[eilandesq]

I was about to grumble about another round of "The Order Of Failed Saving Throws" but that was a DC 23 saving throw for that Mass Hold Monster spell. Brutal on all the fighter types and the low WIS bard, and not easy even for Durkon to make. Certainly not like most of the Order blowing their saves against vampiric domination in the last fight. Nightcrawlers definitely earn their CR 18 rating.

[Fyraltari]

Some of them might have, like Belkar. You are also assuming that the worm possesses perfect information, which I don't see a reason why it would have.

Grey Wolf

No, I am assuming that the worm has a better understanding of the day-to-day rules of the universe he inhabits than I have of those of a game I never played.

[GreatWyrmGold]

First, I’m proud to have accidentally gotten the right D&D size classification.
Second, that sounds awesome, if very dangerous for the caster. The Elemental would also have some kind of permanent poisonous area of effect too, no?
I'd have to crunch the numbers, but my intuition says that the half-life of uranium is long enough that you wouldn't face any short-term effects, and that long-term effects can probably be fixed by some obscure cleric spell. (Or maybe just restoration.)



Aaaand I just now thought of a tactic for a Wizard:

Cast Improved Invisibility (or Invisibility) and cast a Contingency with Improved Invisibility that activates if the first Invisibility is dispelled (but that wouldn't work against Invisibility Purge, I think).
Invisibility purge "negates" the invisibility, which is different than dispelling it. Also, it would promptly negate your new invisibility, and depending on the edition, it might make you double-invisible once you left the area of the purge. I'm not sure if invisibility is additive or multiplicative, so you might end up visible again.
Phrasing it as "dispel" is probably your best bet.

[Zhorn]

The adventures of copy/paste Roy!

Some might cal his performance flat and one dimensional, but I say he's the most consistent character of the strip.

PS: Love the work, Giant.

[ratfox]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DarthV.png We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not?

I'm thinking that there are already elementals around, so now we just need an ethereal filcher. :smallbiggrin:

[AutomatedTeller]

Where IS Hilgya? We saw her from the back in the previous comic, but she's no where to be seen here. I guess she's going to hit the elementals from behind? maybe she's not very fast.

[eilandesq]

Where IS Hilgya? We saw her from the back in the previous comic, but she's no where to be seen here. I guess she's going to hit the elementals from behind? maybe she's not very fast.


Smart to leave her in reserve for situations just like "Nightcrawler hits most of the party with a DC 23 save or suck spell." Assuming that she won't decide to turn on Durkon while he's alone out there on the bridge against the nightcrawler and a vampiric cleric of at least 13th level.

[Peelee]

Come to think of it, looks like they're going for a strictly ranged attack on the worm, so I wonder why Belkar ran out. Maybe to lull Gontor into false sense of security, since he didn't know about Hilgya and maybe Minrah?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was about to grumble about another round of "The Order Of Failed Saving Throws" but that was a DC 23 saving throw for that Mass Hold Monster spell.

eilandesq: the order missing at least one of multiple DC~20 will saves? Impossible!
Also eilandesq: 3/4 of the order missing one DC~20 will save? Fine!

You are being inconsistent, or misunderstanding the vampire domination difficulty. I don't know which one it is.


Come to think of it, looks like they're going for a strictly ranged attack on the worm, so I wonder why Belkar ran out. Maybe to lull Gontor into false sense of security, since he didn't know about Hilgya and maybe Minrah?

Belkar probably wanted to stab it, and was running towards it, but never made it there?

Grey Wolf

[pacovf]

Gold is not a non-periodic element.

Maybe I am missing something obvious, but how is it not? Au is in the periodic table.

[hamishspence]

The non-periodic elements are earth, air, fire, water, shadow, and so on.

The periodic elements are silicon, gold, osmium, and so on.

Gold is not a non-periodic element - it's not earth, air, etc.

It's a periodic element.

[Peelee]

Belkar probably wanted to stab it, and was running towards it, but never made it there?

Grey Wolf
He just kinda stopped though.

Maybe I am missing something obvious, but how is it not? Au is in the periodic table.

Double negative. Not non-periodoc = periodic.

[Riftwolf]

I wonder if this is setting up Belkars death- but then again someone always says that whenever Belkar is in trouble

Also whenever Belkar isn't in trouble. Also whenever it isn't Belkar.

[Peelee]

Also whenever Belkar isn't in trouble. Also whenever it isn't Belkar.

I wonder if this post is setting up Belkar's death.

[Breccia]

Any Player Except V: Roy is falling, can I cast Busby's Hand matching his falling rate, then slow down after catching him, so that he takes no damage?
DM: No, your character doesn't know enough about physics and calculus to do that.

V: Roy is falling. I use my knowledge of physics and calculus to --
DM: Yeah yeah, you catch Roy and he takes no damage. Mr. Scruffy, you're next in initiative.

[pacovf]

The non-periodic elements are earth, air, fire, water, shadow, and so on.

The periodic elements are silicon, gold, osmium, and so on.

Gold is not a non-periodic element - it's not earth, air, etc.

It's a periodic element.


Double negative. Not non-periodoc = periodic.

Woops, missed that double negative. Thanks :)

[eilandesq]

eilandesq: the order missing at least one of multiple DC~20 will saves? Impossible!
Also eilandesq: 3/4 of the order missing one DC~20 will save? Fine!

You are being inconsistent, or misunderstanding the vampire domination difficulty. I don't know which one it is.



Belkar probably wanted to stab it, and was running towards it, but never made it there?

Grey Wolf

No, I'm looking at all of those who failed the Domination having failed in one round, the attack requiring locking of eyes (so 1 target per vampire per round), and a CHA based save DC for a bunch of dwarf based clerics. Even Durkula probably didn't make it quite to 20, and the lower level ones would have been worse.

[zimmerwald1915]

Any Player Except V: Roy is falling, can I cast Busby's Hand matching his falling rate, then slow down after catching him, so that he takes no damage?
DM: No, your character doesn't know enough about physics and calculus to do that.

V: Roy is falling. I use my knowledge of physics and calculus to --
DM: Yeah yeah, you catch Roy and he takes no damage. Mr. Scruffy, you're next in initiative.
None of the characters has a player.

[magwaaf]

How did durkon not make his will save!?

[Kish]

He did, that's why he's not paralyzed.

[JumboWheat01]

:haley: "We have a cleric again, we can fix stuff like this!!"

Ah, the poor fate of clerics everywhere...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He just kinda stopped though.

Reached the end of his movement range for his turn? Remember when he stopped in mid-air for that same reason?


No, I'm looking at all of those who failed the Domination having failed in one round, the attack requiring locking of eyes (so 1 target per vampire per round), and a CHA based save DC for a bunch of dwarf based clerics. Even Durkula probably didn't make it quite to 20, and the lower level ones would have been worse.

They had at least a couple of turns. And with DC of 10 + 1/2 level + CHA, Greg would be sitting at around 18-20. Enough that it'd be a ~25% chance for even Hilgya, likely the best Will save of them all, which means that across two turns, chances where realistically possible to be failed (>40%). If the lower ones concentrated on the easy targets like Belkar and Elan, the whole thing is perfectly plausible.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Any Player Except V: Roy is falling, can I cast Busby's Hand matching his falling rate, then slow down after catching him, so that he takes no damage?
DM: No, your character doesn't know enough about physics and calculus to do that.

V: Roy is falling. I use my knowledge of physics and calculus to --
DM: Yeah yeah, you catch Roy and he takes no damage. Mr. Scruffy, you're next in initiative.

You don’t need knowledge of calculus to progressively slow down a movement any more than you do to throw a stone. If being good at maths translated to physical skills athletes would look different, in my opinion.

[gerryq]

I kind of liked the worm (heh) until it targeted Mr. Scruffy with mass hold monster.

Worm's just doing his job... and doing it well! Pity he's on Team Evil.

[gerryq]

Now I actually wonder what would happen if Redcloak summoned an uranium elemental.

What if he summoned two, and they got too close together?

[zimmerwald1915]

Worm's just doing his job... and doing it well! Pity he's on Team Evil.
No it isn't, it's on Team Hel.

Team Evil's up at the Pole, and has no dog in this fight.

[Themrys]

So very V that she has to be reminded not to use an immobile comrade as a weapon!

I think it is great character development that V caught Roy instead of attacking the monster.

The using an immobile comrade as weapon idea was from Blackwing, it will take a bit more character development for V to oppose such suggestions on principle (rather because of ineffectiveness), and V might never get there.

It is interesting, the thinking about people as if they are characters in a game comes across as high-functioning autism when I try to read the comic as fantasy novel, but when I consider that this is actually a game of D&D and their world really works that way, V comes across as either intelligent enough to know how the universe works (something V claims on a regular basis) or as being played by a metagaming player / bad roleplayer.

[gerryq]

No it isn't, it's on Team Hel.

Team Evil's up at the Pole, and has no dog in this fight.

I didn't mean THAT Team Evil. I meant the OTHER Team Evil. Or one of them.

[KorvinStarmast]

:haley: "We have a cleric again, we can fix stuff like this!!"

Ah, the poor fate of clerics everywhere... I think that what you meant to say was
Aha! The awesomeness of clerics on display, yet again! ... :smallcool:

I didn't mean THAT Team Evil. I meant the OTHER Team Evil. Or one of them.
Which of the nine sides is that? :smalleek: :smallconfused: :smalleek:

[SlashDash]

Is it bad that I kind of want Wormy not to lose?


I wonder if this is setting up Belkars death- but then again someone always says that whenever Belkar is in trouble
Yeah, no way in heck.
We've seen Bloodfeast being mentioned several times including when they came here.

That's definitely Checkov's Dinosaur.



I think this is the first time a non-periodic elemental shows up.
Although I don't want to reread the entire comic to be sure.
Weren't there any classic elementals during the first book? With the Earth\Fire\Air sigil parts?



Where IS Hilgya? We saw her from the back in the previous comic, but she's no where to be seen here. I guess she's going to hit the elementals from behind? maybe she's not very fast.

My guess, Hilga is working on something with a long casting time. Hilga is far closer to the "classic" cleric than Durkon - She uses scrying for crying out loud.
Heck, he doesn't even put points in knowledge (Religion)

I would also guess that Hilga could something something of her own (like the Giraffes) but that would be too much going on in the battle for this comic.

[Sniccups]

I didn't mean THAT Team Evil. I meant the OTHER Team Evil. Or one of them.

Xykon's actually referred to his team as Team Evil.

On another note, this is the first time since book 2 (!) where the entire Order is fighting an actual monster. For every fight since then, at least one member has been missing or evil.

[zimmerwald1915]

Xykon's actually referred to his team as Team Evil.

On another note, this is the first time since book 2 (!) where the entire Order is fighting an actual monster. For every fight since then, at least one member has been missing or evil.
At least one member is still Evil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On another note, this is the first time since book 2 (!) where the entire Order is fighting an actual monster. For every fight since then, at least one member has been missing or evil.

Slavers are monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) (Durkon doesn't do much on-screen in that fight, be he was present).

Grey Wolf

[gatemansgc]

oof, everyone failed their save against mass hold monster.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

oof, everyone failed their save against mass hold monster.

No they did not all fail. Durkon saved.

Grey Wolf

[Reboot]

On another note, this is the first time since book 2 (!) where the entire Order is fighting an actual monster. For every fight since then, at least one member has been missing or evil.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0688.html

[Anarion]

I really like the zoomed back scene with the summon monster pulling the stone elementals out of the bridge while the order is fighting. Any chance that could end up being a wallpaper or calendar scene with higher detail at some point?

[gatemansgc]

No they did not all fail. Durkon saved.

Grey Wolf

then why did he still get hit by the rock? was he standing there confused? he did look confused.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

then why did he still get hit by the rock?
Because his reflex save is terrible.

was he standing there confused? he did look confused.

The fact that he changes expression from panel to panel is what clues you that he was not in fact not paralyzed. And he stands around because it is not his turn.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Reached the end of his movement range for his turn? Remember when he stopped in mid-air for that same reason?

Grey Wolf

Currently I think thatd be shown by Belkar just catching up to them actively.

[gatemansgc]

Because his reflex save is terrible.


The fact that he changes expression from panel to panel is what clues you that he was not in fact not paralyzed. And he stands around because it is not his turn.

Grey Wolf

makes sense.

also it's lucky mr scruffy didn't get a direct hit from the rock, that likely would have been an instant kill.

[KorvinStarmast]

There was an above mention of the worm's spell.
Mass Hold Monster

This spell functions like hold person, except that it affects multiple creatures and holds any living creature that fails its Will save. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdMonsterMass.htm)

makes sense.
also it's lucky mr scruffy didn't get a direct hit from the rock, that likely would have been an instant kill. I think that the animal buddy gets some extrah HD/HP from his Ranger,
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm
If Belkar is level 14 - 16, it's like a 7th or 8th level Druid animal companion. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)
Bonus HD: +4; Natural Armor Adjustment; +4; Dex Adjustment: +2; Bonus Tricks; 3, etc. (See the table) at the link.


This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger’s effective druid level is one-half his ranger level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm).

[Gorm_the_DBA]

Any Player Except V: Roy is falling, can I cast Busby's Hand matching his falling rate, then slow down after catching him, so that he takes no damage?
DM: No, your character doesn't know enough about physics and calculus to do that.

V: Roy is falling. I use my knowledge of physics and calculus to --
DM: Yeah yeah, you catch Roy and he takes no damage. Mr. Scruffy, you're next in initiative.

Bugsby's Roy Catching Hand to the rescue! A modified version of the classic, but it matches the rate of the target to gently cushion the fall.

[Elves]

Continuity problem: shouldn't the Invisibility Purge have been dispelled when he walked through the barrier?

Also, by default nightcrawlers have Quicken SLA (Cone of Cold).

I like the blue breath effect for the SLA.

[Jasdoif]

Continuity problem: shouldn't the Invisibility Purge have been dispelled when he walked through the barrier?How would we tell either way, if Haley and Vaarsuvius had lost their invisibility spells after attacking?

[Turin_19]

So, when Roy's sword falling off is no longer an issue, Roy falling off is.

Huh.

[ken]

Continuity problem: shouldn't the Invisibility Purge have been dispelled when he walked through the barrier?

Also, by default nightcrawlers have Quicken SLA (Cone of Cold).

I like the blue breath effect for the SLA.

As pointed out earlier - they both made attacks since the invisibility purge, which ends normal invisibility.
Apparently V chose not to spend two 4th level slots on greater invisibility.

Ken D.

Ninja are everywhere!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Continuity problem: shouldn't the Invisibility Purge have been dispelled when he walked through the barrier?

Yes, but I suspect that the author has taken a look at the spell name, decided that the effects should match the name (i.e. it purges invisibility, rather than suppress it while within a set distance) because it is easier to follow for the non-experts than to have to spend a panel explaining "yes, it's called purge, but it doesn't actually purge, not as such".

Grey Wolf

[dtilque]

Continuity problem: shouldn't the Invisibility Purge have been dispelled when he walked through the barrier?

If they just used plain old Invisibility and not the Greater version, the spell would end when they attacked some being, such as the Nightcrawler.

[Ayek]

Is it bad that I kind of want Wormy not to lose?
. . .
We've seen Bloodfeast being mentioned several times including when they came here.

That's definitely Checkov's Dinosaur.
. . .


If Bloodfeast were thrown through the orange barrier, wouldn't that dispel the polymorph effect and allow it to revert to allosaur form? That could be very bad for the vampires, but also for their thralls. And possibly for the ceiling.

[Reboot]

If Bloodfeast were thrown through the orange barrier, wouldn't that dispel the polymorph effect and allow it to revert to allosaur form? That could be very bad for the vampires, but also for their thralls. And possibly for the ceiling.

Neither a lizard nor an allosaur is a dwarf. Bloodfeast can't go through.

[understatement]

Work that will save (I think), Durkon.

Is this the rare time Roy fails a will save?

[The MunchKING]

On another note, this is the first time since book 2 (!) where the entire Order is fighting an actual monster. For every fight since then, at least one member has been missing or evil.

One of the team members is ALWAYS evil.

[D.One]

Work that will save (I think), Durkon.

Is this the rare time Roy fails a will save?

This raises a question. Didn't any of them got protected by (a new casting of) Mind Blank? Apparently, not. (Yeah, I've answered my own question...)


One of the team members is ALWAYS evil.

Which one of them is a fiend in disguise? :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

V, there's politely listening to your friends' ideas and thinking about whether they're good or not, and then there's taking them seriously even when they're completely stupid. You're in a party with Elan and Belkar, you should have figured this out ages ago. Or at least pages.

I kind of assumed V was being rhetorical, and that the more important point was he would continue spellcasting.

[ti'esar]

The mental image provoked by V and Blackwing in the last panel made me laugh so hard.

[Pampukin]

Cool comic, as always. It does bring a question up though, what would be the clerical spell to release them of the hold? I havent played a 3.5 cleric in so long. Dispel magic? That would kill any prior buffs, assuming there was some cast. Is there a more efficient way for Durkon to help the party?

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Well, we know Gontor* is at least 13th level.

[Jasdoif]

Cool comic, as always. It does bring a question up though, what would be the clerical spell to release them of the hold? I havent played a 3.5 cleric in so long. Dispel magic? That would kill any prior buffs, assuming there was some cast. Is there a more efficient way for Durkon to help the party?Remove paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeParalysis.htm) is the most obvious; it's even an ideal candidate for a wand, should Haley retroactively (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html) have one.

[ellindsey]

Neither a lizard nor an allosaur is a dwarf. Bloodfeast can't go through.

This really makes me wonder. If someone was shapeshifted into a dwarf and tried to walk through the barrier, would they get through yet be turned back into their original species, or would they be unable to get through at all? I suppose it depends on which clause takes place first - negating any spells on them, or only permitting dwarves to pass.

[Hekko]

Hilgya and (probably) Minrah still off screen.

Keep in mind that Durkon said there are three rings making up the council chambers, each with its own set of... rules? protections? - but Gontor* only seems to know about two of them. The vampires probably don't expect Minrah to show up at all, and may be unclear about Hilgya (or think she could be easily dominated, and therefore not much of a threat).

So showing the Order is like saying, here we are, look at us. Minrah and Hilgya are the good guys' sleigh of hand.

[Elves]

We know that V knows Greater Invis though, so it's a bit odd. I guess either explanation works, personally I prefer Grey Wolf's. Though FWIW the scene would work just as well if Roy got caught seemingly inexplicably, with V then speaking out of thin air.

[Reboot]

Remove paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeParalysis.htm) is the most obvious; it's even an ideal candidate for a wand, should Haley retroactively (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html) have one.
That seems like a not-especially-efficent way of fixing this, with four targets - including Mr Scruffy - down. With the worm's caster level, a +2 bonus seems unlikely to be enough for the Order of Poor Will Saves, and guaranteed-release would require four separate castings.

(And given that Haley is the one that gestures in the direction of the clerics, she probably doesn't)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Assuming that [Hilgya] won't decide to turn on Durkon while he's alone out there on the bridge against the nightcrawler and a vampiric cleric of at least 13th level.
As long as he keeps both feet on the ground, he shouldn't be able to put either in his mouth. He has nothing to worry about.


The using an immobile comrade as weapon idea was from Blackwing, it will take a bit more character development for V to oppose such suggestions on principle (rather because of ineffectiveness), and V might never get there.
To paraphrase something I said earlier, V has gone through enough character development to take others' suggestions seriously, but hasn't gone through quite enough to realize they can ignore them when they're stupid.




If Bloodfeast were thrown through the orange barrier, wouldn't that dispel the polymorph effect and allow it to revert to allosaur form? That could be very bad for the vampires, but also for their thralls. And possibly for the ceiling.Neither a lizard nor an allosaur is a dwarf. Bloodfeast can't go through.
I'm imagining two possible scenarios from Belkar chucking Bloodfeast at the barrier:
1. Touching the barrier is enough to dispel baleful polymorph and Bloodfeast turns the tide of battle, but gets knocked off the narrow platform before it can completely end the encounter.
2. Bloodfeast bounces off, Elan correctly realizes it can't go through due to not being a dwarf, and he promptly glues a beard on to trick the barrier into letting Bloodfeast through.

...which, in Elan-logic, leads to a dinosaur with a beard.

In a D&D game I played, the party druid had a belt of dwarvenkind, which (among other things) gives you a beard. We joked that this applied even in animal forms, including the T. rex the druid turned into with polymorph. The joke lived on after the druid left the party, because the wizard regularly cast polymorph on party members, and the only T. rex he ever saw was the druid...




None of the characters has a player.
Eh, it's a joke, don't sweat it. I thought it was even an amusing joke.

[Jasdoif]

That seems like a not-especially-efficent way of fixing this, with four targets - including Mr Scruffy - down. With the worm's caster level, a +2 bonus seems unlikely to be enough for the Order of Poor Will Saves, and guaranteed-release would require four separate castings.Caster level doesn't affect the save DC (unlike the dispel DC).

[Shoelessgdowar]

No it isn't, it's on Team Hel.

Team Evil's up at the Pole, and has no dog in this fight.

Actually, technically Hilgya is Team Evil adjacent (the Linear Guild was working with Team Evil), so there is a tiny possibility that Team Evil does have a Dwarf in the fight (I would not want to call Hilgya a dog, she can be quite vindictive about slights on her... it would also mean we are calling Kutzu a little SOB).

[KorvinStarmast]

Actually, technically Helgya is Team Evil adjacent (the Linear Guild was working with Team Evil), so there is a tiny possibility that Team Evil does have a Dwarf in the fight (I would not want to call Helgya a dog, she can be quite vindictive about slights on her... it would also mean we are calling Kutzu a little SOB). Hilgya, and I don't think she's with team Evil at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html).

Why does Loki want that Talisman?

[Hekko]

Why does Loki want that Talisman?

Does Loki need a reason?

Retrospectively, he planted Hilgya in there to have her near the gate and the talisman was an excuse to get away with it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Actually, technically Helgya is Team Evil adjacent (the Linear Guild was working with Team Evil), so there is a tiny possibility that Team Evil does have a Dwarf in the fight.
Hilgya used to work for the Linear Guild, who used to work for Xykon. It's been well over 1,000 strips since either of those was the case. I'd say Hilgya is (probably) Linear-Guild-adjacent, and the Linear Guild is within a 10-foot radius of Team Evil. It's possible that Hilgya is adjacent to Team Evil, but there are plenty more ways for her to be at least two spaces away.

[understatement]

These are 2 Large elementals, right? (eyeballing from size)

I'm suddenly craving for the insta-kill plutonium Elemental that will surely and realistically happen one day.

So, Roy's Mind Blank is offline, then?

[Ghosty]

These are 2 Large elementals, right? (eyeballing from size)

I'm suddenly craving for the insta-kill plutonium Elemental that will surely and realistically happen one day.

So, Roy's Mind Blank is offline, then?

Should be large elementals, since the Exarggh got two of them from Summon VII. The Pu elemental would be interesting, from a distance. Louis Slotin could tell you more, but you'd need a Ouija board.

I guess the Order has been in Firmament more than 24 hours after V casted that spell on Roy. One reason I thought the LDW would lead with GDM is so any opponents' buffs that'd protect against its save or suck arsenal could be removed. Worked anyway, I guess. Now comes the devouring...

I'm with Peelee: that long shot of the battle is a fantastically drawn scene.

[eilandesq]

Reached the end of his movement range for his turn? Remember when he stopped in mid-air for that same reason?



They had at least a couple of turns. And with DC of 10 + 1/2 level + CHA, Greg would be sitting at around 18-20. Enough that it'd be a ~25% chance for even Hilgya, likely the best Will save of them all, which means that across two turns, chances where realistically possible to be failed (>40%). If the lower ones concentrated on the easy targets like Belkar and Elan, the whole thing is perfectly plausible.

Grey Wolf

With neither Roy or anyone else noticing?

[RabidEel]

Hilgya used to work for the Linear Guild, who used to work for Xykon. It's been well over 1,000 strips since either of those was the case. I'd say Hilgya is (probably) Linear-Guild-adjacent, and the Linear Guild is within a 10-foot radius of Team Evil. It's possible that Hilgya is adjacent to Team Evil, but there are plenty more ways for her to be at least two spaces away.

But where does Kevin Bacon fit in? :smallconfused:

[Verappo]

Is there a thread listing every instance of a character lifting their finger to point something out? It never ceases to make me laugh :smallbiggrin:

[Shoelessgdowar]

Is it bad that I kind of want Wormy not to lose?
Weren't there any classic elementals during the first book? With the Earth\Fire\Air sigil parts?


There were elemental beings (Celia is a Sylph, an Air Elemental being), but not actual pure Elemental Golems of Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Shadow, Light, Metal, Wood, Sand, Magma, Ooze, Ice, Salt, etc.

Turns out, there was a Water Elemental born from 2 Hydrogen Elementals and an Oxygen Elemental in a bonus strip of Book 4 (Don't Split the Party), but besides that, the only elementals we had seen until now have been Redcloak's Periodic Table Elementals. Too bad Redcloak hasn't learned chemistry, otherwise he'd know he just needs to summon carbon Elementals or Aluminum and Oxygen Elementals, and he can made Diamonds and Sapphires galore respectively.



Hilgya, and I don't think she's with team Evil at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html).

Why does Loki want that Talisman?

As I said, adjacent, not Evil (Despite what some people think, that she is a heartless monster).

Loki wanted the Talisman so Nale didn't.


Does Loki need a reason?

Retrospectively, he planted Hilgya in there to have her near the gate and the talisman was an excuse to get away with it.

Does he need one? No. Does he have one? Almost absolutely, but we have not yet learned it.



Hilgya used to work for the Linear Guild, who used to work for Xykon. It's been well over 1,000 strips since either of those was the case. I'd say Hilgya is (probably) Linear-Guild-adjacent, and the Linear Guild is within a 10-foot radius of Team Evil. It's possible that Hilgya is adjacent to Team Evil, but there are plenty more ways for her to be at least two spaces away.

Hilgya could have made a deal with the IFCC, who also seem to have some influence still over the Linear Guild, and may even be manipulating Team Evil. We don't know all the ramifications, and would need a pretty impressive murder board and venn diagram hybrid to track all the intersections and links in the Stickverse.

[B. Dandelion]

Roy's seems frozen into the exact same position and expression now as O-Chul was when he wound up at MitD's tea party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html). Flopsy is now Stiffly.

[Jasdoif]

But where does Kevin Bacon fit in? :smallconfused:The relationship chart that constitutes the cast of characters in the front of the book has a relationship line for "Sabine wants to shtup Kevin Bacon".

[Squire Doodad]

You know you're nearing the endgame when the foes start using advanced tactical strategies instead of "3 traps+slash until things die".

[zimmerwald1915]

Too bad Redcloak hasn't learned chemistry, otherwise he'd know he just needs to summon carbon Elementals or Aluminum and Oxygen Elementals, and he can made Diamonds and Sapphires galore respectively.
In fact Redcloak got "passing grades in Chem."

And why would Redcloak of all people want sapphires?

[Squire Doodad]

In fact Redcloak got "passing grades in Chem."

And why would Redcloak of all people want sapphires?

To throw at the Azurites to mock them, obviously.

I'm pretty sure Redcloak has attempted to harvest diamonds from Carbon Elementals in the past, but eventually stopped either because it was too difficult or the other elementals started complaining.

Also, if he can make sapphires, he can make rubies with a few relatively minor changes. Sadly, he cannot make Emerald through this process.

[understatement]

Redcloak's new Implosion: heat target up with divine fire, get grappled by Ice and Water Elemental.

Boom.

[5crownik007]

Panel 9.
Roy, that was close, you almost had another 443 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html).

[Aveline]

Neither a lizard nor an allosaur is a dwarf. Bloodfeast can't go through.

I wouldn't be surprised if animals weren't subject to the "dwarves only" rule, either implicitly (the rule is only for people) or explicitly (in order to allow councilmembers' service animals into the chamber).

[Ghosty]

I wouldn't be surprised if animals weren't subject to the "dwarves only" rule, either implicitly (the rule is only for people) or explicitly (in order to allow councilmembers' service animals into the chamber).

Have we seen any service animals that weren't classed as Ranger's companions, Mage familiars, or other similar situations? Is there a Stickworld ADA law in the Dwarven Lands?

[Aveline]

Have we seen any service animals that weren't classed as Ranger's companions, Mage familiars, or other similar situations? Is there a Stickworld ADA law in the Dwarven Lands?

However you'd classify a service animal (how about "service animal"? Not every dwarf has class levels), I think familiars and animal companions could be exempt too.

Edit: I mean, familiars and animal companions of dwarves who would normally be allowed to pass through the orange barrier.

[gerryq]

Neither a lizard nor an allosaur is a dwarf. Bloodfeast can't go through.

Bloodfeast is surely a dwarf allosaur! The only question is whether he is enough of a rules lawy

[drazen]

makes sense.

also it's lucky mr scruffy didn't get a direct hit from the rock, that likely would have been an instant kill.

I am glad Scruffy survived but very angry at the worm/elementals for hurting him (Scruffy has damage marks).

Also, someone else mentioned a plutonium elemental as an instakill. I'd suggest a Polonium elemental would be even more deadly. Or summoning a Cesium Elemental on your underwater adventure. :)

[NoHaxJustPi]

Astatine Elemental. Biggest you can summon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

With neither Roy or anyone else noticing?

You're the one that brought up the fact that they are looking at the vampires, not at each other.

Grey Wolf

[Sloanzilla]

I'm jealous of a game where PC's actually fail saving throws.

The dwarf monk in my current adventure has yet to miss a save.

[GreatWyrmGold]

With neither Roy or anyone else noticing?
Wasn't he doing some sort of heroic monologue at the vampires?



But where does Kevin Bacon fit in? :smallconfused:
Well...Gary Gygax has a Bacon Number of 2 thanks to an appearance on Futurama. He's been in a comic with Roy, whose Bacon Number is therefore 3. So Hilgya's Bacon Number would be 4, as would most OotS characters aside from Roy's Archon. Unless someone with a lower Bacon Number showed up in OotS?



Too bad Redcloak hasn't learned chemistry, otherwise he'd know he just needs to summon carbon Elementals or Aluminum and Oxygen Elementals, and he can made Diamonds and Sapphires galore respectively.
"You think that I can just wave my hands and reshape the molecular bonds of these elementals? Don't be absurd."


Hilgya could have made a deal with the IFCC, who also seem to have some influence still over the Linear Guild, and may even be manipulating Team Evil. We don't know all the ramifications, and would need a pretty impressive murder board and venn diagram hybrid to track all the intersections and links in the Stickverse.
I don't see any reason to assume she did make a deal with the IFCC, any more than there's a reason to assume she made a deal with the Oracle to make sure Belkar's prophecy came true before he returned to Sunken Valley.

[Goblin_Priest]

Wait, where's Hilgy?

[Peelee]

Remove paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeParalysis.htm) is the most obvious; it's even an ideal candidate for a wand, should Haley retroactively (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html) have one.

A wand is never retroactive, nor is it proactive. It is precisely what it needs to be.

[Mandor]

In a bit of a pickle now aren't they.

I think the plan for Hilgya would be to get her into the moot/meet stealthily, and have her disrupt from the inside before the vampires know what's up.

I have an odd feeling she WILL... inside the blue barrier.... and get turned to stone for upsetting the meeting.
I hope Kudzu isn't turned to stone right along with her. He shoudln't be, HE wouldn't be the one disrupting the meeting, but some magic isn't all that precisely targetted in this comic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I have an odd feeling she WILL... inside the blue barrier.... and get turned to stone for upsetting the meeting.
I hope Kudzu isn't turned to stone right along with her. He shoudln't be, HE wouldn't be the one disrupting the meeting, but some magic isn't all that precisely targetted in this comic.
Why? Both why do you think something will happen to Hilgya, and why do you think it'll specifically be "turns to stone for upsetting the meeting, because that's apparently a crime now"?

[Baelzar]

Well that's what you get for standing in a nice little group like that, ffs. You gotta SPREAD IT OUT a little.

[dtilque]

So, Roy's Mind Blank is offline, then?

Perhaps it was Dispelled by Team Vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html)



I guess the Order has been in Firmament more than 24 hours after V casted that spell on Roy.

Nope, they've been in Firmament for about 10 hours or so.

[Ruck]

Well...Gary Gygax has a Bacon Number of 2 thanks to an appearance on Futurama. He's been in a comic with Roy, whose Bacon Number is therefore 3. So Hilgya's Bacon Number would be 4, as would most OotS characters aside from Roy's Archon. Unless someone with a lower Bacon Number showed up in OotS?
Did Keith Baker ever meet Kevin Bacon?

[Oxenstierna]

I’m not familiar with the 3.5 rule set but in terms of getting through, could Hilgya cast something like Sanctuary and just wander past without attacking? I’m assuming once in the meeting a cleric of Loki would be able to create sufficient chaos to at least delay things (even without magic).

[Mandor]

Why? Both why do you think something will happen to Hilgya, and why do you think it'll specifically be "turns to stone for upsetting the meeting, because that's apparently a crime now"?

Purely a hunch.
A teeny bit of Checkov's Gun in that explaining the perils of that barrier kind of means SOMEONE's going to get tagged by it, OR, someone's going to get saved at the last minute by someone saying "No! You Fool!" and stopping them from committing a crime.
And a little bit feeling like Hilgya's use to the the story is about to end.

Of course, now that I think about it a bit more "turned into stone until the meeting is formally adjourned", could also be a leadup to Belkar's "Last Breath, Ever", if they ultimately disrupt the councile in a manner that prevents it from EVER being Adjourned.
And again, no real hard evidence for that beyond hunches.

[Ghosty]

Perhaps it was Dispelled by Team Vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html)



Nope, they've been in Firmament for about 10 hours or so.

Neither V nor Roy fell susceptible to the vampires' domination attempts. Both were also the only characters to receive the Mind Blank spell. Are both Roy and V's Will save so high that they'd save against those domination attempts, but Hilgya of all people would blow it?

I just thought the vamps failed to dispel the Mind Blank for either V or Roy. What are the odds of the Mind Blank surviving five or so Dispel attempts, vs Roy or V not falling prey any of the dominate attempts?

[Reboot]

I just want to complain again how badly named Mind Blank is, and by extension how torturous the given reasoning for the name is. It sounds like it should be an improved version of Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm), dropping mental scores to 0 and leaving the victim as a doorstop until expired/dispelled, rather than a protective spell.

Thank you for your time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just thought the vamps failed to dispel the Mind Blank for either V or Roy. What are the odds of the Mind Blank surviving five or so Dispel attempts, vs Roy or V not falling prey any of the dominate attempts?

Pretty good, since the spells will target lower level effects first and MB is an 8th.

Also, Hilgya would have a 5-6 in 20 chance of failing the save. Not exactly unreasonable to expect her to fail after a couple tries.

[Emperor Time]

I'm glad that Scruffy survived that attack since he is a great mascot for the team. And would be a shame to lose him anytime soon.

[Fyraltari]

You know, the deathworm in his introduction is very much like the early MitD personality wise.

[Kareasint]

I’m not familiar with the 3.5 rule set but in terms of getting through, could Hilgya cast something like Sanctuary and just wander past without attacking? I’m assuming once in the meeting a cleric of Loki would be able to create sufficient chaos to at least delay things (even without magic).

Well, the Nightcrawler would get a Will save at +23 (yikes) to be able to attack her. Plus, she would have to pass through the first barrier which would dispel it. She would also be on her own and open to domination attack.

This is a really nasty high level fight. Hilgya would better serve in a support roll here. Freeing Roy should be the first move since his sword and Durkon's hammer are the best weapons against the worm. If V has Dismissal prepared, that would take one of the elementals out of the fight. Potentially, Hilgya and Durkon could also have Dismissal prepared.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yea, Sanctuary allows a will save to overcome it. It's a solid spell, but being low level, the DC will be low, and creatures with high will saves are likely to overcome it.

[Leftour]

There is nothing preventing oots from summoning their own monsters. That would lead to a really crowded plattform:smallbiggrin:
Granted, they haven't used summon tactics before, if i remember correctly, but they planned using astral ally in the pyramid so the concept exists.
Now that i think of it, could one summon a creature on the other side of either barrier?

[Riftwolf]

A wand is never retroactive, nor is it proactive. It is precisely what it needs to be.

That's wand-elf. Regular wands are reactive or inactive.

[JumboWheat01]

There is nothing preventing oots from summoning their own monsters. That would lead to a really crowded plattform:smallbiggrin:
Granted, they haven't used summon tactics before, if i remember correctly, but they planned using astral ally in the pyramid so the concept exists.
Now that i think of it, could one summon a creature on the other side of either barrier?

Well, they haven't used summon tactics before primarily because V has Conjuration as one of their prohibited schools. Granted, Durkon could do some summoning, but he'd have to purposely prepare the spells for that, and I *think* rangers do have a couple summoning spells, but as we all know, Belkar doesn't have the Wis for any kind of casting. So unless Hailey happens to have some Wands of Summoning, I think the chance of any summoning happening is next to zero.

The barrier doesn't seem to be the edge of anti-magic, so I don't see why something couldn't be on the other side, unless I missed a note about the barrier. I probably did.

[Sniccups]

At least one member is still Evil.

One of the team members is ALWAYS evil.
What I meant is unnaturally evil, like being a vampire. Belkar's always been that way. (I'm not entirely sure how I phrased that so poorly.)


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0688.html
That doesn't really seem like a fight, it's resolved in one spell.


On another note, I'd like to point out that summoning a Large radioactive elemental is a terrible idea. They likely weigh about a ton (varying by element density, of course) which would either produce massive amounts of radiation, which affects the summoner as well, or produce a literal nuclear explosion and level the city.

[D.One]

I just want to complain again how badly named Mind Blank is, and by extension how torturous the given reasoning for the name is. It sounds like it should be an improved version of Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm), dropping mental scores to 0 and leaving the victim as a doorstop until expired/dispelled, rather than a protective spell.

Thank you for your time.

I believe Elan has your complain (kind of) covered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html) :smalltongue:

[Sloanzilla]

I suppose the barriers go around the entire temple and can't just be bypassed via stoneshape?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Did Keith Baker ever meet Kevin Bacon?
According to the website I'm using (https://oracleofbacon.org/), he hasn't appeared in any films/TV shows with anyone who has a Bacon Number. So his Bacon Number is probably 3, from working with Gygax on some book or another.



Purely a hunch.
A teeny bit of Checkov's Gun in that explaining the perils of that barrier kind of means SOMEONE's going to get tagged by it, OR, someone's going to get saved at the last minute by someone saying "No! You Fool!" and stopping them from committing a crime.
And a little bit feeling like Hilgya's use to the the story is about to end.
I definitely feel like someone's going to turn to stone, but I don't think Hilgya's going to die/get petrified/whatever just because her "narrative utility" is running out. For one thing, Durkon doesn't want his son to grow up with only one parent, and I don't see that changing if the one parent is him.



I just want to complain again how badly named Mind Blank is, and by extension how torturous the given reasoning for the name is. It sounds like it should be an improved version of Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm), dropping mental scores to 0 and leaving the victim as a doorstop until expired/dispelled, rather than a protective spell.

Thank you for your time.
Maybe it's just me, but my first thought is a "clear your mind" sort of thing. In a fantasy context, I'd expect that to be "clear your mind and let the magic/qi/Force/whatever flow through you," but "clear your mind so that nobody can see what a mess you've made of it" would be my second guess.



I suppose the barriers go around the entire temple and can't just be bypassed via stoneshape?
Did anyone prepare stone shape? And enough stone shape spells to both knock a hole in the wall and make a safe path to it?

[Jannoire]

Now that i think of it, could one summon a creature on the other side of either barrier?

The Ex-Exarch bothered to poke his casting hand outside of the barrier to summon the Elementals. So I guess, the barrier won't let you summon anything on the other side of it...

[Peelee]

What I meant is unnaturally evil, like being a vampire.

Durkon was never unnaturally evil; the vampire was a different character.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

According to the website I'm using (https://oracleofbacon.org/), he hasn't appeared in any films/TV shows with anyone who has a Bacon Number. So his Bacon Number is probably 3, from working with Gygax on some book or another.

I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

Grey Wolf

[ManuelSacha]

I didn't laugh at the "whacking the worm" joke.
I did chuckle at Belkar's chuckle.

[Jasdoif]

The barrier doesn't seem to be the edge of anti-magic, so I don't see why something couldn't be on the other side, unless I missed a note about the barrier. I probably did.It's more about the inner details of magic effects in general: you need line of effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect) to the area you're summoning a creature into, and the orange barrier blocks line of effect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html).


I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

Grey WolfThat's my understanding as well. (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1476.html)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Durkon was never unnaturally evil; the vampire was a different character.


I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

Grey Wolf
I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.
(Also, just a couple quotes back, this discussion was about the Bacon Number of various OotS characters via Gygax.)

[Manji]

I think this comic proves that Durkon and clerics in general are a bad influence to parties, when Durkon was not with the party, they had to plan, and did plan very cleverly to succeed, now that Durkon is back, all they planned was to make Haley and V invisible which was easily purged, and now they know that no matter what happens, Durkon can remove enchantments, curses, resurrect, etc.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.

No. Not at all what I understand. The Bacon and Erdős numbers are independent. If you happen to have a non-infinite value for both, you can sum them to obtain your Bacon-Erdős number (Natalie Portman, for example), but you don't obtain an Erdős number from acting roles or through the Bacon number.

Informal as it may be, this is still mathematics. There is always a procedure.

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.
(Also, just a couple quotes back, this discussion was about the Bacon Number of various OotS characters via Gygax.)

AFAIK the Erdos number was originally defined based on peer reviewed publications and people who maintain lists still do so on that basis. Mathematicians publish lots of collaborative papers. Erdos was a graph theorist and unusually widely collaborated, the idea of making a graph of mathematical collaborations was obvious enough and defining distance from Erdos made a nice joke, because the number was low for almost everyone who'd get the joke.

But it's supposed to be collaborations on research papers. This may be enough to give everyone with a Erdos number a Bacon number (I don't know if Bacon number is usually defined for professional movie and TV appearances or for any common appearance), but it doesn't work in reverse.

[Aveline]

I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

Grey Wolf

A professor at the university I attended has a Bacon number (he is credited for the blackboard math in Good Will Hunting). Another professor there has an Erdos number (her advisor published with Erdos). For these two professors to obtain a Bacon-Erdos number, must they collaborate on a film, an article, either, or both?

(I seem to recall one of them saying their Bacon-Erdos numbers would be four. But I don't remember exactly how.)

Edit: Wow, mega ninja! That is totally my own fault.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A professor at the university I attended has a Bacon number (he is credited for the blackboard math in Good Will Hunting). Another professor there has an Erdos number (her advisor published with Erdos). For these two professors to obtain a Bacon-Erdos number, must they collaborate on a film, an article, either, or both?

The professor with the Bacon number needs to publish a peer-reviewed paper with someone that already has an Erdős number. The other one needs to appear in a film with someone with a Bacon number. Then they'll both have a Bacon-Erdős number. The easiest thing, therefore, is for them to publish together, and do a short film about it. At that point, they'll each have each other's current number +1, and thus the same Bacon-Erdős number

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

A wand is never retroactive, nor is it proactive. It is precisely what it needs to be.That's wand-elf. Regular wands are reactive or inactive.
I love you, guys.

The Ex-Exarch bothered to poke his casting hand outside of the barrier to summon the Elementals. So I guess, the barrier won't let you summon anything on the other side of it...
I think that the Elementals are behind the Order, forcing it to fight on two fronts is deliberate. There’s also the chance that the barrier would dispel the Elementals crossing it. I don’t see any reason why the blue barrier would stop a summoned deva, however.

I think this comic proves that Durkon and clerics in general are a bad influence to parties, when Durkon was not with the party, they had to plan, and did plan very cleverly to succeed, now that Durkon is back, all they planned was to make Haley and V invisible which was easily purged, and now they know that no matter what happens, Durkon can remove enchantments, curses, resurrect, etc.
I’m sure they have a plan. However they just made contact with the ennemy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does Loki need a reason? No.

Loki wanted the Talisman so Nale didn't.
Nale didn't what?

Hilgya could have made a deal with the IFCC, who also seem to have some influence still over the Linear Guild, and may even be manipulating Team Evil. We don't know all the ramifications, and would need a pretty impressive murder board and venn diagram hybrid to track all the intersections and links in the Stickverse. Not sure how her devotion to Loki squares with cutting a deal with IFCC. Betting the under on that one.
I just want to complain again how badly named Mind Blank is Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the term "drawing a blank" as it pertains to thinking of or remembering something?
Complaint noted, and rejected.

[Reboot]

Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the term "drawing a blank" as it pertains to thinking of or remembering something?
Complaint noted, and rejected.

I am, yes. That's why I think the more logical use is to make a mind blank - i.e., unable to think or remember. Not the tortured justification that it makes it seem like you're mindless, but not really be.

[D.One]

I am, yes. That's why I think the more logical use is to make a mind blank - i.e., unable to think or remember. Not the tortured justification that it makes it seem like you're mindless, but not really be.

Mind Blank's name, AFAICRC, may have been inspired by and old psionic power/defense mode of the same name that was explained as "emptying one's mind" in order for defending oneself against mental attacks. This draws from mystic/martial arts tales of masters whose minds can be so peaceful and empty of thought that they can't be affected by mental powers.

It's not "make someone's Mind Blank", but instead "keep your Mind Blank".

[zimmerwald1915]

Nale didn't what?
Get the talisman, presumably.

Why Loki is supposed to care about whether a mortal can command outdated monsters is beyond me.

[D.One]

Get the talisman, presumably.

Why Loki is supposed to care about whether a mortal can command outdated monsters is beyond me.

Maybe the gods themselves (and even the Snarl) are outdated monsters, since they appeared many editions ago.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe the gods themselves (and even the Snarl) are outdated monsters, since they appeared many editions ago.

Unlikely, since by the very definition given in the comic, the monsters in that pit where monsters that never got an update in 3ed rules, and divine beings did get an update.

Grey Wolf

[Shoelessgdowar]

Well...Gary Gygax has a Bacon Number of 2 thanks to an appearance on Futurama. He's been in a comic with Roy, whose Bacon Number is therefore 3. So Hilgya's Bacon Number would be 4, as would most OotS characters aside from Roy's Archon. Unless someone with a lower Bacon Number showed up in OotS?

Funnily Enough, with at least a triple Bacon number of 2 (ie 2 via 3 different links) Fruit Pie would in fact be better than Gygax as a link to Kevin Bacon.

Plus Fruit Pie appeared in #91, while Gygax didn't appear until #536, meaning he established the Bacon # for the order 445 pages (or 3 books) sooner

[Elanorea]

Granted, they haven't used summon tactics before

Aren't we forgetting something? (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Bag_of_Tricks) :smalltongue:

[understatement]

The urge to see Roy chuck a weasel in the Exarch's face is very appealing for some unknown reason.

Wouldn't "Mind Shield" be more aptly named?

[zimmerwald1915]

Wouldn't "Mind Shield" be more aptly named?
Possibly. But I actually think "mind blank" is more evocative of a certain kind of mental discipline. You are able to avoid domination because the magic clears your mind, leaving a dominator nothing to latch on to.

[Keltest]

I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.

[Stiletto]

Fortunately, the Hold Person/Monster family of spells allow a full-round action each round to get a new save. They'll all get out of it eventually. Preferably, Durkon's spell remove paralysis can be used on the most important person first.

[Jannoire]

Fortunately, the Hold Person/Monster family of spells allow a full-round action each round to get a new save. They'll all get out of it eventually. Preferably, Durkon's spell remove paralysis can be used on the most important person first.

The most important one is the one with the highest Wis save... Roy

[Keltest]

The most important one is the one with the highest Wis save... Roy

Actually, its entirely possible that Elan has a higher will save than Roy, albeit not by much. If Roy had 18 wis and put some feats into boosting his will save, he just about breaks even with a bard's will save, after a potential wis penalty from Elan.

Of course, the Dashing Swordsman class might not have the same save progression as a bard, or might even suffer a will save penalty for dramatic moments (the hero never escapes while the villain is monologuing, for example), so its possible that Roy has the third highest save behind V and Durkon.

Of course, this is all moot because you actually want to burn the spells on the person least likely to break out on their own, unless you have reason to believe they will just immediately get hit with it again.

[mjasghar]

I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.

Didn’t you ever see the original Ghostbusters?
A more rounded reading of fantasy and the influences on d and d - 70s and 80s culture and American Renaissance fairs - is something any fantasy fan should have
It’s a shame so many younger fantasy fans have a contempt for the older stories (eg those who can’t stand the earlier discworld novels without realising its parody of Vance and d&d)

[Ezekiel]

Didn’t you ever see the original Ghostbusters?

This is exactly what I thought of too.

[zimmerwald1915]

Didn’t you ever see the original Ghostbusters?
The purple quiddity arose when Gozer asked the Dark One if he was a god, and the Dark One said "yes!"

(Gozer, of course, is a demigod of the Western Pantheon in the Stickverse.)

[dtilque]

It’s a shame so many younger fantasy fans have a contempt for the older stories (eg those who can’t stand the earlier discworld novels without realising its parody of Vance and d&d)

The city of Ankh-Morpork is a parody of or at least was based on Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar. However, according Morpork's Wikipage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh-Morpork#Fiction_connections), Pratchett claims it was unconscious. Not sure I believe that. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser do have a cameo in Colour of Magic under different names,

[KorvinStarmast]

Mind Blank's name, AFAICRC, may have been inspired by and old psionic power/defense mode of the same name that was explained as "emptying one's mind" in order for defending oneself against mental attacks. This draws from mystic/martial arts tales of masters whose minds can be so peaceful and empty of thought that they can't be affected by mental powers.

It's not "make someone's Mind Blank", but instead "keep your Mind Blank". Yeah, sounds very 1e psionics. Don't have that book with me at the moment. Zim said what I was going to say, but better, so Zim's take gets a solid +1 from me.

[Reboot]

Possibly. But I actually think "mind blank" is more evocative of a certain kind of mental discipline. You are able to avoid domination because the magic clears your mind, leaving a dominator nothing to latch on to.
All well & good in concept - but for that to work, it would basically have to turn a barbarian into a monk (personality wise) for the duration. And even the "fluff" text doesn't suggest that.


Actually, its entirely possible that Elan has a higher will save than Roy, albeit not by much. If Roy had 18 wis and put some feats into boosting his will save, he just about breaks even with a bard's will save, after a potential wis penalty from Elan.

Of course, the Dashing Swordsman class might not have the same save progression as a bard, or might even suffer a will save penalty for dramatic moments (the hero never escapes while the villain is monologuing, for example), so its possible that Roy has the third highest save behind V and Durkon.

Of course, this is all moot because you actually want to burn the spells on the person least likely to break out on their own, unless you have reason to believe they will just immediately get hit with it again.

It's also moot because there is at least one statement on panel that Elan has a worse will save than Roy (shortly before his death, Durkon says "weak willed" - as in those who would fall to Malack's dominating gaze - describes most of the Order, and wishes Mr Scruffy could just bring Roy. Straight away, that means Durkon thinks Elan & Haley both have Belkar-comparable will saves, while Roy's is good.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

He could also be again projecting his general attitude of "Lawful is strong, Chaotic is weak", which was one of the pillars of his characterization until this book. If we didn't have WoG that he's LG, I suspect much of the Playground would peg Durkon as LN.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Nale didn't what?
It sounds like Shoeless thought Loki considered the possibility of Nale getting control of an artifact which granted him control over a bunch of creatures without Will saves so dangerous that he would intervene to stop Nale from getting the talisman. By sending a cleric to help him get the talisman...



I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.
I'd expect the super-feeblemind spell you're describing to be called something more like "blank mind". And even then, I'd wonder why it wasn't called "erase mind" or "suppress mind" or something.



All well & good in concept - but for that to work, it would basically have to turn a barbarian into a monk (personality wise) for the duration.
Why? Mind blank lets you get the mind-clearing effect without the mental discipline of a monk, just like feather fall gives you the Slow Fall ability without that discipline, or finger of death gives you a ranged quivering palm without that discipline. Or, for that matter, like how a gauntlet lets you punch people good without that discipline, though to a lesser extent.



He could also be again projecting his general attitude of "Lawful is strong, Chaotic is weak", which was one of the pillars of his characterization until this book. If we didn't have WoG that he's LG, I suspect much of the Playground would peg Durkon as LN.
Eh...he's only the second-nicest member of the Order by virtue of being stuck with Elan. I'd peg Roy as LN before Durkon.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, Roy's broken way too many rules for that.

[Rrmcklin]

Nah, Roy's broken way too many rules for that.

Being Lawful isn't about whether or not someone follows rules. Not that I would peg Roy as LN either way.

[Riftwolf]

Mind Blank's name, AFAICRC, may have been inspired by and old psionic power/defense mode of the same name that was explained as "emptying one's mind" in order for defending oneself against mental attacks. This draws from mystic/martial arts tales of masters whose minds can be so peaceful and empty of thought that they can't be affected by mental powers.

It's not "make someone's Mind Blank", but instead "keep your Mind Blank".

Regarding poor naming choices, the first game i was in someone won a Ring of Mind Shielding. The DM didn't check what it actually did, just went by the name, so one character got a free permanent Mind Blank until someone checked the DMG.

[Scauting]

Are humens though?

[Mightymosy]

I am, yes. That's why I think the more logical use is to make a mind blank - i.e., unable to think or remember. Not the tortured justification that it makes it seem like you're mindless, but not really be.


I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.
Yep. Until it was explained, I thought Mind Blank was an attack spell. I still don't like the name and flavour, and would prefer something like "Mind Shield".


He could also be again projecting his general attitude of "Lawful is strong, Chaotic is weak", which was one of the pillars of his characterization until this book. If we didn't have WoG that he's LG, I suspect much of the Playground would peg Durkon as LN.

Yes again. For a very long time I thought Durkon was LN, especially after he chastised Roy's sister.

Actually, I have the OotS board game, and I think he is called Lawful Bland there. Which is the best description of Durkon up until recently anyway, if you ask me =)

[5crownik007]

Astatine Elemental. Biggest you can summon.


There's no material safety data sheet for astatine. If there were, it would just be the word "NO" scrawled over and over in charred blood.

I mean, the caster would also die, so uh, maybe not?

[Riftwolf]

I mean, the caster would also die, so uh, maybe not?

I remember an XKCD What if saying if you had a shoebox full of plutonium, it'd be enough for a critical mass.
Summon Monster III/Nature's Ally II allows a small elemental. I guess getting a tiny elemental earlier would lead to too many 1st level nukes.

[Keltest]

I'd expect the super-feeblemind spell you're describing to be called something more like "blank mind". And even then, I'd wonder why it wasn't called "erase mind" or "suppress mind" or something.

And I would expect the "absolute mental self control" spell to be called something like "clear minded". A clear mind is one that has no distractions. A blank mind is one that is void of all thought (ie a moron). Heck, Elan even makes that joke.

[D.One]

Yep. Until it was explained, I thought Mind Blank was an attack spell. I still don't like the name and flavour, and would prefer something like "Mind Shield".

Old AD&D 2nd Edition Psionics had 5 "defense modes", a special kind of power used in mind battles:

Thought Shield, Mind Blank, Mental Barrier, Intellect Fortress and (the "over-the-toply" named) Tower of Iron Will.

Each one of them had advantages and disadvantages against the different kinds of telepathic attack modes: Mind Thrust, Ego Whip, Id Insinuation, Psychic Crush and Psionic Blast.

[Doug Lampert]

Old AD&D 2nd Edition Psionics had 5 "defense modes", a special kind of power used in mind battles:

Thought Shield, Mind Blank, Mental Barrier, Intellect Fortress and (the "over-the-toply" named) Tower of Iron Will.

Each one of them had advantages and disadvantages against the different kinds of telepathic attack modes: Mind Thrust, Ego Whip, Id Insinuation, Psychic Crush and Psionic Blast.

The attack and defense modes and names go back to Eldritch Wizardry, published in 1976, back when it was just D&D, before there was such a thing as AD&D or Basic D&D.

[hamishspence]

Yup. They survived as late as 3.0, but 3.5 did away with them.

[mjasghar]

And I would expect the "absolute mental self control" spell to be called something like "clear minded". A clear mind is one that has no distractions. A blank mind is one that is void of all thought (ie a moron). Heck, Elan even makes that joke.
The principle of no mind is part of Zen Buddhism and many martial arts - so I don’t get where you are coming from with this argument
No offence intended but is English not your first language as maybe it’s a translation issue?

[Keltest]

The principle of no mind is part of Zen Buddhism and many martial arts - so I don’t get where you are coming from with this argument
No offence intended but is English not your first language as maybe it’s a translation issue?

No, English is my first language, and it isn't a translation issue. Have you never heard of somebody being called "mindless" to represent them literally having no thought at all? Like, a mindless zombie? Its not an uncommon turn of phrase, I assure you. Mindless, Brainless, His mind is a blank... Heck, frequently when people are prompted for something they don't know, they'll say "im drawing a blank."

[Jasdoif]

Heck, frequently when people are prompted for something they don't know, they'll say "im drawing a blank."Yeah. If you use divination on someone with mind blank, or try to influence their mind to get them to tell you something firsthand....you'll still draw a blank.

It probably sounded far more clever when no one was actually saying it.

[D.One]

Yeah. If you use divination on someone with mind blank, or try to influence their mind to get them to tell you something firsthand....you'll still draw a blank.

It probably sounded far more clever when no one was actually saying it.

And if you use a white pencil to draw in white paper, you will also draw a blank.



The hands of a spellcaster aren't burning when he casts Burning Hands, they are shooting fire.

Cloak of Chaos doesn't really create a cloak.

Cloudkill is not a spell to kill clouds, but one that creates a killer cloud.

Contact Other Plane doesn't contact the plane itself (because that would be dumb: "Hello, place, how are you?"), but a creature in another plane.

We can go on and on about names that doesn't describe precisely what the spell does, and many of them are way less intuitive than Mind Blank.

Edit: That said, I understand that some people won't like this or that spell name, and that's fine, we don't have to wage war about that...

[Resileaf]

[COLOR="#FFFFFF"]
Contact Other Plane doesn't contact the plane itself (because that would be dumb: "Hello, place, how are you?"), but a creature in another plane.


If you are flying on a plane, can it contact other planes?

[Jasdoif]

Contact Other Plane doesn't contact the plane itself (because that would be dumb: "Hello, place, how are you?"), but a creature in another plane.I think it could actually work that way with sentient demiplanes.

[mjasghar]

So bigby’s hand doesn’t actually summon the actual bibgy’s hand? 🤔

[DavidSh]

If you are flying on a plane, can it contact other planes?

Airplanes, you mean?

Transponder-based collision avoidance systems can be viewed as planes contacting other planes.

"Hey! Anybody out there? Where are you, and what is your velocity?"

"I'm here, and I going this way this fast!"

"It looks like we may come very close to each other. I'd better wake up my pilot!"

[Resileaf]

Airplanes, you mean?

Transponder-based collision avoidance systems can be viewed as planes contacting other planes.

"Hey! Anybody out there? Where are you, and what is your velocity?"

"I'm here, and I going this way this fast!"

"It looks like we may come very close to each other. I'd better wake up my pilot!"

Which means that airplanes are magic. :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

Which means that airplanes are magic. :smallbiggrin:
Of course they are : they fly without even flapping their wings, it doesn’t make sense!

[gatemansgc]

i'm so used to redcloak's periodic elementals that it's funny seeing old fashioned classic elementals tbh

[KorvinStarmast]

If you are flying on a plane, can it contact other planes? We have radios for that. And yes, airplanes are magic. :smallcool: But helicopters? They are supernatural.

[Riftwolf]

So bigby’s hand doesn’t actually summon the actual bibgy’s hand? 🤔

Or does it?
...
No, no it probably doesn't. Still, the idea of an infinitely handed wizard made of pure force *should* be part of some campaign. Its not my fault if everyone else dropped that ball.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It will be a sad day for geekdom when they clean up these language issues as part of D&D6. We'll have to find something else to mock.

[Peelee]

It will be a sad day for geekdom when they clean up these language issues as part of D&D6. We'll have to find something else to mock.

That's mighty optimistic.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, my sarcasm color tags got stripped off. Anyone know why that happens sometimes when posting from mobile?

[F.Harr]

Thank goodness someone remembers.

[Ruck]

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[Rinazina]

Looking at the [nightcrawler stat](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/nightshade/nightcrawler/), and considering there are few vampire clerics, one of them at least 13th level, protected by a mono-directional anti magic barrier... is this the hardest challenge ever fought by the order?

I can't really see how they can win, I'll expect some surprises. One can't be enough to deal with all this necropower.

... :sabine: ?

[Peelee]

Looking at the [nightcrawler stat](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/nightshade/nightcrawler/), and considering there are few vampire clerics, one of them at least 13th level, protected by a mono-directional anti magic barrier... is this the hardest challenge ever fought by the order?

No, Xykon was the hardest challenge they faced. Twice. The second time broke the party for a while.

Also, that's a Pathfinder Nightcrawler. Not really different, but the comic isn't Pathfinder based

[Kish]

Try this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) link instead.

Sabine popping up to help the Order deal with a threat completely unrelated to the Vector Legion strikes me as profoundly unlikely.

[Moriel64]

I kind of liked the worm (heh) until it targeted Mr. Scruffy with mass hold monster.

Oh, no! Poor Mr. Scruffy! Medic? Cleric? Does s/he have extra levels in veterinary healing? And wouldn't this be a good time for Bloodfeast to un-cloak?

[Syncrogti]

That's mighty optimistic.

YOUR comment is mighty optimistic. I think the original comment about D&D6 is unbelievably optimistic, hence probably sarcasm or naivety.:smalltongue:

[Peelee]

YOUR comment is mighty optimistic. I think the original comment about D&D6 is unbelievably optimistic, hence probably sarcasm or naivety.:smalltongue:

Eh, what can I say, I am an eternal optimist.

[zimmerwald1915]

Try this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) link instead.

Sabine popping up to help the Order deal with a threat completely unrelated to the Vector Legion strikes me as profoundly unlikely.
Sabine popping up in any context other than the Directors summoning Vaarsuvius to Hell strikes me as profoundly unlikely.

[Kish]

Ten gold says Sabine will appear on the Prime Material Plane between the current comic (#1161) and the end of the comic.

[D.One]

Ten gold says Sabine will appear on the Prime Material Plane between the current comic (#1161) and the end of the comic.

And you are paying things with these poor talking gold? You monster!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html)

[zimmerwald1915]

Ten gold says Sabine will appear on the Prime Material Plane between the current comic (#1161) and the end of the comic.
Ah, what the hell, it's only money. Deal.

[Resileaf]

I'm betting that Sabine is used by the IFCC to prevent Durkon from talking with Redcloak to convince him to close the rifts, since the IFCC wants to cause chaos and conflict.

[D.One]

I'm betting that Sabine is used by the IFCC to prevent Durkon from talking with Redcloak to convince him to close the rifts, since the IFCC wants to cause chaos and conflict.

Sabine will recruit Anel, the forgotten twin, Goth, the dark-hearted barbarian, YakYak, widow of YikYik, mother of YokYok and herald of Tiamat and, of course, Hylgia, to resurrect Zz'dtri and go bring vengeance to Tarquin.

Edit: and before anyone highlights that Anel is Neutral, his brother was killed by Tarquin and he might still want revenge.