Sorlock: Divine Soul or Shadow?

[Lvl02]

the guide titled:The Sorlock – Guide to the tormented divine soul with Xanathar's Divine Soul(17)+Hexblade(3)
mentions that shadow and divine soul are competitive subclass options for a 2-3warlock/X Sorcerer sorlock. Having played both, i just don't see how shadow is comparable to divine soul as divine soul gets healing and support flexibility from the cleric spell list while favored by the gods extra 2d4 to saves can be gamechangers, especially with save or sucks or even that clutch death save. Aid and deathward are also spells that work well with extend spell done before the end of a long rest. Eyes of the dark isn't special as the 2-3 dip in warlock can provide devil's sight. Hound of ill Omen could be amazing on hold person or hold monster, but at higher levels monsters will usually have high saves or legendary resistance anyway. While shadow walk has the potential to be nearly useless depending on the situation and DM. All in all, shadow is a good subclass for sorcerers. But for sorlocks divine seems to be the much better option

[Vekon]

Seeing in magical darkness without devil's sight frees up an invocation, which can be used to further enhance your EB spamming. Particularly the pushing effect, I'd imagine.
Similarly, the Hound is quite literally a better heightened spell that also offers more damage.
How is the mobility from Shadow Walk going to be useless? Most dungeons are dark. Dawn and twilight are dim light. Even if your human party member can't see in the dark, the outer radius of his light spell is likely to be dim light. It's kind of situational, sure, but not as situational as you seem to be implying. It's just another thing to consider tactically.

..People actually take healing spells on their Divine Soul Sorcerers?

Also, the option works better for people wanting to play a sorcerer influenced by the Shadowfell rather than imbued with divinity.

[Man_Over_Game]

the guide titled:The Sorlock – Guide to the tormented divine soul with Xanathar's Divine Soul(17)+Hexblade(3)
mentions that shadow and divine soul are competitive subclass options for a 2-3warlock/X Sorcerer sorlock. Having played both, i just don't see how shadow is comparable to divine soul as divine soul gets healing and support flexibility from the cleric spell list while favored by the gods extra 2d4 to saves can be gamechangers, especially with save or sucks or even that clutch death save. Aid and deathward are also spells that work well with extend spell done before the end of a long rest. Eyes of the dark isn't special as the 2-3 dip in warlock can provide devil's sight. Hound of ill Omen could be amazing on hold person or hold monster, but at higher levels monsters will usually have high saves or legendary resistance anyway. While shadow walk has the potential to be nearly useless depending on the situation and DM. All in all, shadow is a good subclass for sorcerers. But for sorlocks divine seems to be the much better option

Different jobs; they aren't quite comparable.

Divine Soul does best when using Concentration buff, area control, or healing spells.

Shadow Sorcerer does best when attacking with spells, as a scout, or at disabling enemies.

The idea is that the Eyes of the Dark means you don't NEED Devil's Sight any longer, so you can afford to use something else (such as Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast/Repelling Blast).

Additionally, the low level Warlock levels won't provide your Sorcerer levels any high level spell slots, and a Divine Soul Sorcerer will want more emphasis on higher level spell slots because of the fact that they'll be focusing on high level Concentration spells. Do you still want to be casting Bless at level 12, or would you rather be casting Animate Objects?

However, those low level Warlock slots work perfectly fine for a Sorlock who wants to spam Quickened Eldritch Blast or an enhanced Darkness that both scale in level.

[Nhorianscum]

Are you taking Sorc to 6? If not DS is just better. If so shadow just stomps DS. Are you going to 10+? They're about even here. 14+? DS is a stomp here with permaflight and access to an actually useful level 8 spell list.

[SVamp]

Are you taking Sorc to 6? If not DS is just better. If so shadow just stomps DS. Are you going to 10+? They're about even here. 14+? DS is a stomp here with permaflight and access to an actually useful level 8 spell list.

I’ll admit I’ve never played a sorcerer at 14+ , but which cleric spells are so amazingly better than anything the sorcerer has at lvls 7,8&9?

I do think the wings are significantly better than the shadow teleport ability (if only you could use it as a reaction..) , but I would imagine at this level you’d either be using burst dps (quick eb + hex or animate objects) or hound + hold monster if the thing(s) are vulnerable to save-based effects? (Possibly plane shift if you’re pressed enough and it’s not vulnerable to hold) ? But this is conjecture on my part..

[Man_Over_Game]

I’ll admit I’ve never played a sorcerer at 14+ , but which cleric spells are so amazingly better than anything the sorcerer has at lvls 7,8&9?

I do think the wings are significantly better than the shadow teleport ability (if only you could use it as a reaction..) , but I would imagine at this level you’d either be using burst dps (quick eb + hex or animate objects) or hound + hold monster if the thing(s) are vulnerable to save-based effects? (Possibly plane shift if you’re pressed enough and it’s not vulnerable to hold) ? But this is conjecture on my part..

The Sorcerer basically has a bunch of debuffs. The Cleric has resurrection spells, Conjure Celestial, and Antimagic field.

I don't think it's enough to draw that big of a difference. I mean, at late levels, Meteor Storm can just destroy anything you want it to, and Power Word Kill can be a life saver (except to one guy in particular). So yes, the Cleric does have a few more spells that you'd see more regular use of, but the Sorcerer will still find a use for Time Stop or Meteor Storm.

[sophontteks]

Divine soul has access to a whole extra spell list...
But still has the known spells of a sorcerer.

Actually jot down what spells you will be picking up every level and see how many cleric spells you have room for. I wasn't ever able to drop in more then a couple cleric spells, and I felt they were more side grades then anything. With so few spells known every spell you take costs you elsewhere. You only get one spell per level, less later on.

[Nhorianscum]

I’ll admit I’ve never played a sorcerer at 14+ , but which cleric spells are so amazingly better than anything the sorcerer has at lvls 7,8&9?

I do think the wings are significantly better than the shadow teleport ability (if only you could use it as a reaction..) , but I would imagine at this level you’d either be using burst dps (quick eb + hex or animate objects) or hound + hold monster if the thing(s) are vulnerable to save-based effects? (Possibly plane shift if you’re pressed enough and it’s not vulnerable to hold) ? But this is conjecture on my part..

I cannot name one spell at 8th level on the Sorc list worth burning a known spell on. Cleric has some solid 8ths. Sorc has stellar spells at 6, 7, and 9 though.

Edit:

Quick example DS17/Hex3 list

1: Shield (lock), Absorb Elements (lock?)
2: Suggestion (lock), Aid, Invis (lock)
3: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste, SG, Fireball, bestow curse.
4: Ddoor, Death ward, Ginvis
5: Wall of Stone, Contigation.
6: Mass Suggestion.
7: Revgrav
8: Holy Aura
9: Wish

I sorta hate looking at lock3/Sorc 17 at 20 because it kills a use of a 7th and 6th level slot.

[Man_Over_Game]

I cannot name one spell at 8th level on the Sorc list worth burning a known spell on. Cleric has some solid 8ths. Sorc has stellar spells at 6, 7, and 9 though.

Sunburst deals an average of 42 damage and blinds for a minute in a 60 foot radius.

Dominate Monster can be twinned, good for using special skills of a particular creature.

Even if you don't like level 8 spells you, can just learn a level 7 spell and use your level 8 slot for upcasting.

[Nhorianscum]

Sunburst deals an average of 42 damage and blinds for a minute in a 60 foot radius.

Dominate Monster can be twinned, good for using special skills of a particular creature.

Even if you don't like level 8 spells you, can just learn a level 7 spell and use your level 8 slot for upcasting.

I've pretty much always left the 8th slot on non-DS Sorc empty tbh.

42 is sorta piss damage for an 8th. We've done more than that since xl7 thanks and for CC we have better tools (lookin at you revgrav)

I do like Holy Aura, antimagic, and conjure celestial for a potential 8th slot use on DS. It's fine for our 8th to be a bit niche just not niche and sunburst level trash.

[Lvl02]

Actually jot down what spells you will be picking up every level and see how many cleric spells you have room for. I wasn't ever able to drop in more then a couple cleric spells, and I felt they were more side grades then anything. With so few spells known every spell you take costs you elsewhere. You only get one spell per level, less later on.


Not exactly the spells to put on the list but some good spells to choose from are
Healing word- twin it to save unconscious partymates
Guidance- pretty great free buff for skill checks
Sanctuary- for getting someone or yourself out of a dangerous situation at early levels. not concentration which is extra good
Aid- Burn any unneeded spellslot for some nice max HP. can be done before the end of a long rest and lasts pretty much the whole day with extend spell
Deathward- same as above
Conjure celestial- Couatls.
Geas- is good for out of combat beside being really good flavor for a sorc. Somehow not in their default spell list
Heal- always good for emergencies
Temple of the gods- a pretty badass spell situationally. good for long rests

Again, these spells aren't all meant to be taken but are some of the good choices to pick from.
As a sorlock offensively you'll be using your concentration to be hexing and action economy to be eldritch blasting anyway so the little extra offensive potential of a shadow sorc casting hound of ill omen would be better changed with the flexibility of Divine soul in buffing and emergency situations, three of those buffs aren't even concentration..
And if you're hexing you won't be using eyes of the dark anyway.
Another note is that if you're reliable enough on your eldritch blast you can tone down on single damage spells like disintegrate or not take them completely

[sophontteks]

Right away using hex is a waste of concentration for both archtypes. If you were a straight warlock you could pick invocations that could empower hex. Here, you are losing most of your spellcasting potential to do a little more damage with your cantrip. You have extremely powerful concentration spells and you can make them better with things like twinned. Use those.

[SVamp]

Right away using hex is a waste of concentration for both archtypes. If you were a straight warlock you could pick invocations that could empower hex. Here, you are losing most of your spellcasting potential to do a little more damage with your cantrip. You have extremely powerful concentration spells and you can make them better with things like twinned. Use those.

Ooohkay, I think this requires a heck of s lot more explanation than what you presented.

1) waste in regards to personal damage Or opportunity cost for the party?

2) which other lvl 1 spells can you use to give you +8d6 damage to your 2x (quicken) eldritch blasts? Only animate objects seems better and that’s using a lvl 5 slot. There are times when something like darkness will be better because it’s the only way to get advantage (great with elven accuracy) and the targets AC is high, but otherwise it’s pretty decent.

3) how in the blazes heck am I “giving up my entire spell casting potential” by using ONE BONUS action on a lvl 1 spell? (And 8d6 isn’t a little damage .. specially since it’s round after round)

I THINK what you mean is that if I twin haste on the rogue and the fighter I’m contributing more to party damage than by adding 8d6 to my dps. Well so would the fighter if he used his maneuver to do a commanding strike on the rogue, and so would the paladin if he multi classed sorcerer etc etc but the funny thing is you don’t get to dictate character choices for other people. A sorlock is a damage dealer build to deal damage. As such I’d be interested to know which twinned concentration spells I’m missing that would have a pretty significant increase in MY ability to do damage or kill something.

(Twinned disintegrate isn’t concentration lol, though it could be a fun option if you place a shadow hound right next to two dangerous targets)

[sophontteks]

There is nothing really to compare.
You are using your only concentration a level 1 spell over your far better level 3+ spells.
You are using a cantrip as your primary action, again vs. your far more powerful spells.
You are a warlock dip without the invocations that can buff hex and EB.

Your cantrip is OK, but you are only dipping warlock. All your real strength is in the class you are actually leveling up. If you are not using the strengths of the class you sunk all your levels of in first and foremost, you are missing your potential.

[Nhorianscum]

Ooohkay, I think this requires a heck of s lot more explanation than what you presented.

1) waste in regards to personal damage Or opportunity cost for the party?

2) which other lvl 1 spells can you use to give you +8d6 damage to your 2x (quicken) eldritch blasts? Only animate objects seems better and that’s using a lvl 5 slot. There are times when something like darkness will be better because it’s the only way to get advantage (great with elven accuracy) and the targets AC is high, but otherwise it’s pretty decent.

3) how in the blazes heck am I “giving up my entire spell casting potential” by using ONE BONUS action on a lvl 1 spell? (And 8d6 isn’t a little damage .. specially since it’s round after round)

I THINK what you mean is that if I twin haste on the rogue and the fighter I’m contributing more to party damage than by adding 8d6 to my dps. Well so would the fighter if he used his maneuver to do a commanding strike on the rogue, and so would the paladin if he multi classed sorcerer etc etc but the funny thing is you don’t get to dictate character choices for other people. A sorlock is a damage dealer build to deal damage. As such I’d be interested to know which twinned concentration spells I’m missing that would have a pretty significant increase in MY ability to do damage or kill something.

(Twinned disintegrate isn’t concentration lol, though it could be a fun option if you place a shadow hound right next to two dangerous targets)

1: You have 9th level spells. Why are you using hex. Drop Hexcurse and cast Bestow curse at 5th level if you must boost EB.

2: You can cast spells at or over over 5th level every round of every combat. Why are we talking about hex?

3: Hex uses concentration. We have better uses at level 20, on the Full Caster with wish.

4: You have 20 spells known. Hex is not worth one.

[Damuri]

the guide titled:The Sorlock – Guide to the tormented divine soul with Xanathar's Divine Soul(17)+Hexblade(3)
mentions that shadow and divine soul are competitive subclass options for a 2-3warlock/X Sorcerer sorlock. Having played both, i just don't see how shadow is comparable to divine soul as divine soul gets healing and support flexibility from the cleric spell list while favored by the gods extra 2d4 to saves can be gamechangers, especially with save or sucks or even that clutch death save. Aid and deathward are also spells that work well with extend spell done before the end of a long rest. Eyes of the dark isn't special as the 2-3 dip in warlock can provide devil's sight. Hound of ill Omen could be amazing on hold person or hold monster, but at higher levels monsters will usually have high saves or legendary resistance anyway. While shadow walk has the potential to be nearly useless depending on the situation and DM. All in all, shadow is a good subclass for sorcerers. But for sorlocks divine seems to be the much better option

What is it about the divine soul sorcerer that synergizes with the hexblade better than the shadow sorcerer?

Sure you get more spells to choose from but the sorcerer does not suffer form a lack of choices, it suffers from a lack of spells known.
For every cleric spell you take, you are forgoing a sorcerer spell.

I understand that a divine soul sorlock can fill healer requirements while doling out great single target damage but if you have a cleric in the party, the divine soul sorlock becomes kind of redundant and if you are running solo then the shadow sorcerer sorlock is superior for many reasons. The divine soul sorcerer really only makes sense in a group where noone wants to play a druid, cleric or bard. Clerics are the only ones that can revivify at level 5 (paladins at level 9, bards at level 9 with raise dead and druids sorta at level 9 with reincarnate).

[RogueJK]

What is it about the divine soul sorcerer that synergizes with the hexblade better than the shadow sorcerer?


Setting aside healing, status mitigation, and raising the dead, assuming you already have a Cleric for those, consider:

Spirit Guardians is a great way to boost damage on a frontline Hexblade.

Twinning single-target Cleric buffs like Shield of Faith, Protection from Good and Evil, Freedom of Movement, and Death Ward is a great party buff option.

Twinned Guiding Bolt can be an efficient ranged attack spell against 2 targets, especially when upcast. (Potentially better than Sorcerer options like Scorching Ray or Twinned Chromatic Orb, thanks to the range, rider, and Radiant damage.)

Twinned or Quickened Inflict Wounds or T/Q Bestow Curse are useful for a melee Hexblade.


All of the abovementioned spells are only available to the Divine Soul Sorcerer (except Protection from Evil/Good, which a Shadow Sorlock could potentially choose as one of their few Warlock spells).


Also, having played a melee Hexblade before (although not a Sorlock), I found myself failing saving throws and Concentration checks more often than I was dropping to 0 HP, making Divine Soul's Favored by the Gods likely more frequently useful than Shadow's Strength of the Grave. Also, conveniently enough, Favored by the Gods is usable more frequently (per Short Rest vs. per Long Rest).

[Gtdead]

If the campaign is going to reach high levels, I like choosing subclasses with free flight. I consider Divine > Dragon > Rest. For lower levels I think anything goes. I don't care too much about divine sorlock because I think the sorcerer list is stronger than cleric list for the class. I usually MC out of sorcerer at lvl 7. Divine soul is fairly squishy to use spells like spirit guardians up till then.

If you plan to dip sorlock very early, which is something that I personally don't like, then Divine soul is good because he gets fast medium armor.

So that would be my suggestion, for up to t3, shadow is fine. For up to t4 divine soul or dragon would be my pick.

[Damuri]

Setting aside healing, status mitigation, and raising the dead, assuming you already have a Cleric for those, consider:

Spirit Guardians is a great way to boost damage on a frontline Hexblade.

Twinning single-target Cleric buffs like Shield of Faith, Protection from Good and Evil, Freedom of Movement, and Death Ward is a great party buff option.

Twinned Guiding Bolt can be an efficient ranged attack spell against 2 targets, especially when upcast. (Potentially better than Sorcerer options like Scorching Ray or Twinned Chromatic Orb, thanks to the range, rider, and Radiant damage.)

Twinned or Quickened Inflict Wounds or T/Q Bestow Curse are useful for a melee Hexblade.


All of the abovementioned spells are only available to the Divine Soul Sorcerer (except Protection from Evil/Good, which a Shadow Sorlock could potentially choose as one of their few Warlock spells).


Also, having played a melee Hexblade before (although not a Sorlock), I found myself failing saving throws and Concentration checks more often than I was dropping to 0 HP, making Divine Soul's Favored by the Gods likely more frequently useful than Shadow's Strength of the Grave. Also, conveniently enough, Favored by the Gods is usable more frequently (per Short Rest vs. per Long Rest).

A lot of your comments seem geared towards some sort of hexblade multiclass. If so then may I suggest bard or paladin as better matches for a Hex warrior.

Yes you can twin cleric spells. You can twin sorcerer spells too. Bestow curse is negated by a save and expires when you kill the monster. Hex does neither of those things. For the most part, I think hex > bestow curse once your sorlock is online.

Sorlock do not suffer from a lack of spell choices. I don't think any of those cleric spells (except maybe death ward) makes the cut for sorlock spells known. Not over spells like sleep and shield or polymorph and greater invisibility. At almost every level there are half a dozen sorcerer spells I want but don't have room for.

And yes favored by the gods is absolutely better than strength of the grave. But the darkness ability offers better synergy. It helps the sorlock achieve its core purpose. A sorlock in darkness also doesn't have to make a lot of saving throws.

The 6th level shadow ability blows away the 6th level divine ability.

I also prefer the shadow 14 to the divine 14. I think it is the fastest travel speed in the game and offers incredible battlefield mobility.

Virtual immunity from damage at level 18 at a cost of 5 hp/round seems better than a nice self heal.

For what you want to do as sorlock, I think shadow is better unless your party doesn't have a cleric.

[Damuri]

If the campaign is going to reach high levels, I like choosing subclasses with free flight. I consider Divine > Dragon > Rest. For lower levels I think anything goes. I don't care too much about divine sorlock because I think the sorcerer list is stronger than cleric list for the class. I usually MC out of sorcerer at lvl 7. Divine soul is fairly squishy to use spells like spirit guardians up till then.

If you plan to dip sorlock very early, which is something that I personally don't like, then Divine soul is good because he gets fast medium armor.

So that would be my suggestion, for up to t3, shadow is fine. For up to t4 divine soul or dragon would be my pick.
The emphasis on concentration free flight never makes sense to me.

Sure it's great but you are still targetable, you are still susceptible to the death bind spell. There is an uncommon magic item that does the same thing.

120ft teleport at will its much harder to replicate and much harder to counter isn't it?

As for doing soon. I'd go shadow 3, hexblade 3, your sorlock is online at level 5 doing what a sorlock is supposed to be doing. Let the other full casters worry about casting spells. You are not support, you are direct damage for the most part. Sure, something like sleep is on you spell list at low levels and hypnotic pattern at highest levels. Polymorph etc. But your default action is blasting stuff.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Eyeas of Darkness free an invocation.

Hound of ill oman is better highthen spell, work great with stuff like sickening radiance.

The level 18 ability let you walk through objects and get resistance to most damage(great if you go tank or if you want to stay alive).

Hex +quicken scorching ray from a high level slot + EB on a target with Hexblade curse is a great source of damage and you don't need to be a DS to do it.

The DS gives you more options for spells known.
But your character concept will determine if it is needed.
For my tank/DPR sorcelock I prefer 18 levels in shadow sorcerer.

[Hael]

What is it about the divine soul sorcerer that synergizes with the hexblade better than the shadow sorcerer?
).

They’re both amazing. Keep in mind you are mostly spamming double EB every round, the question is what else can you do that helps the party. Shadow + hound can cast offensive Sorcerer spells like fireball better than a DS can. OTOH your buffs and heals as a ds are never wasted and are amazing, even if you have multiple other party members in support.

So the answer is whatever your party needs. If you lack aoe dpr and raw Offense, and they expect you to fill that role, go shadow. If they need more versatility and support, go DS.

[Damuri]

They’re both amazing. Keep in mind you are mostly spamming double EB every round, the question is what else can you do that helps the party. Shadow + hound can cast offensive Sorcerer spells like fireball better than a DS can. OTOH your buffs and heals as a ds are never wasted and are amazing, even if you have multiple other party members in support.

So the answer is whatever your party needs. If you lack aoe dpr and raw Offense, and they expect you to fill that role, go shadow. If they need more versatility and support, go DS.

Sure, I agree. If your party needs a healer, then absolutely.
The best healing is frequently more offense. Your party will always need more offense.

So level by level

At 1-3rd level
DS has cleric spells and a short rest saving throw bonus
Shadow gets darkness and devil's sight at a discounted sorcery point cost and a saving throw vs death.
If you don't really need the divine spells, I think this clearly goes to shadow

At 6th level
DS gets a meh healing buff
Shadow gets hound of ill omen
This one clearly goes to shadow

At 14th level
DS gets 30' fly speed
Shadow gets 120 at will teleport
I think fly is better in bright light and shadowwalk is better otherwise.

At 18th level
DS gets to heal 50% of hit points when below 50%.
Shadow gets Umbral Form (resistance to almost all damage and practical immunity to all damage or even being targetted for a cost of 5 hp) for a jaw dropping 6 sorcery points
For me, this seems to fall in favor of the shadow sorcerer as well.

So depending on the type of campaign and party composition. But the point is that the OP's contention that DS is a much better option over shadow is probably incorrect.

[Bardon]

Sure, I agree. If your party needs a healer, then absolutely.
The best healing is frequently more offense. Your party will always need more offense.

So level by level

At 1-3rd level
DS has cleric spells and a short rest saving throw bonus
Shadow gets darkness and devil's sight at a discounted sorcery point cost and a saving throw vs death.
If you don't really need the divine spells, I think this clearly goes to shadow

At 6th level
DS gets a meh healing buff
Shadow gets hound of ill omen
This one clearly goes to shadow

At 14th level
DS gets 30' fly speed
Shadow gets 120 at will teleport
I think fly is better in bright light and shadowwalk is better otherwise.

At 18th level
DS gets to heal 50% of hit points when below 50%.
Shadow gets Umbral Form (resistance to almost all damage and practical immunity to all damage or even being targetted for a cost of 5 hp) for a jaw dropping 6 sorcery points
For me, this seems to fall in favor of the shadow sorcerer as well.

So depending on the type of campaign and party composition. But the point is that the OP's contention that DS is a much better option over shadow is probably incorrect.


I do think to be fair you need to consider the higher-level cleric spells when considering the utility of the divine soul. There are some incredibly useful cleric spells as you progress past 3rd level but this comparison only seems to include them for levels 1-3.

[Gtdead]

The emphasis on concentration free flight never makes sense to me.

Sure it's great but you are still targetable, you are still susceptible to the death bind spell. There is an uncommon magic item that does the same thing.

120ft teleport at will its much harder to replicate and much harder to counter isn't it?

As for doing soon. I'd go shadow 3, hexblade 3, your sorlock is online at level 5 doing what a sorlock is supposed to be doing. Let the other full casters worry about casting spells. You are not support, you are direct damage for the most part. Sure, something like sleep is on you spell list at low levels and hypnotic pattern at highest levels. Polymorph etc. But your default action is blasting stuff.

Teleport only in darkness and dim light is situational, flying always apply and it can be cheesy. I personally like the combination of reliable and cheesy. I also like verticality, especially with a build that can potentially nuke the earth from the stratosphere.

The reason I multiclass after lvl 7 (or 8, to get the ASI) is because I don't see sorlock as a blaster, but as an optimized sorcerer. Arcane casters gain the heavy abilities at these levels, while the only spells I'd ever pick from the lvl 5 selection is animate objects and wall of stone. Eldritch Blast outclasses animate objects and I don't consider wall of stone that strong. If it was wall of force things would be different.

[Damuri]

I do think to be fair you need to consider the higher-level cleric spells when considering the utility of the divine soul. There are some incredibly useful cleric spells as you progress past 3rd level but this comparison only seems to include them for levels 1-3.

I hear you. I am not saying that a divine sorlock is a bad build. I think it's an excellent build (especially if you are in a group that doesn't have a bard, druid or cleric and even in a group that is simply missing a cleric). I am merely rebutting the OP's statement that "i just don't see how shadow is comparable to divine soul" and "for sorlocks divine seems to be the much better option"

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As for spell lists, I think the Cleric spell list compares even less favorably at higher levels (I think most of the really stand out non-healing cleric spells are at the lower levels).
Here are the spells I take as a DS sorlock at higher levels (I frequently play DS sorlocks because the groups frequently need healing and/or revivify). Sure there are some different choices you might select based on preferences but I can't think of a cleric spell that would be a noticeable improvement on any of these unless you need the healing.

4th level
Polymorph
Greater Invisibility

5th level
Wall of Stone
Animate Objects

6th
Mass Suggestion

7th
Teleport

8th
Holy Aura (This is a cleric spell, when i play a shadow sorlock, I usually take Dominate Monster)

9th
Wish (I will usually trade out a lower level spell for another 9th level spell here)

You can always swap out lower level spells for higher ones and get more but at every level I can usually go at least one or two spells deeper on the sorcerer spell list.

This is not to say that the cleric spell list sucks. It doesn't; but, at almost ever point, there is an equally good sorcerer spell available. In other words, if you don't need the healing/revivify you already have enough good spells to choose from on the sorcerer spell list that adding the cleric spell list doesn't add as much as many people think. You only get 16 spells total and there are waaaay more than 16 sorcerer spells that I want.

[Damuri]

Teleport only in darkness and dim light is situational, flying always apply and it can be cheesy. I personally like the combination of reliable and cheesy. I also like verticality, especially with a build that can potentially nuke the earth from the stratosphere.

The reason I multiclass after lvl 7 (or 8, to get the ASI) is because I don't see sorlock as a blaster, but as an optimized sorcerer. Arcane casters gain the heavy abilities at these levels, while the only spells I'd ever pick from the lvl 5 selection is animate objects and wall of stone. Eldritch Blast outclasses animate objects and I don't consider wall of stone that strong. If it was wall of force things would be different.

Flight is also situational. How useful is flight in a dungeon?
Are you in outdoors in the daylight that much more frequently than you are in a dungeon or outdoors at night? There are entire campaigns that occur in darkness or have a significant nighttime component. I cannot think of many campaigns that occurs predominantly outdoors in daylight.
I also have a spell that allows me to create darkness (that only I can see through) in a 15 foot radius wherever I go, even in broad daylight. I do not have a spell that creates higher ceilings in a dungeon wherever I go.
If you use flight for ranged attacks and I am inside your range, then you are probably inside mine.
I think wings are great but somewhat over-rated especially at higher levels.


Animate objects does 10d8+20 on your bonus action for an average of 65 damage and you can do other non-damage things with it as well (i.e. there is non-combat utility in the spell) every round
Eldritch blast as a bonus action at 17th level does 4d10 plus 20 (agonizing blast) for an average of 42 points every round for 10 rounds
4d10 plus 44 for an average of 66 damage every round starting on the second bonus round;
4d10 plus 44 plus 4d6 for an average of 80 damage every round starting on the 3rd bonus round.

If I find myself in a situation where I want to do something other than twin eldritch blast the entire combat, then I think animate objects is a very useful spell to have. But, if you don't like that spell, then you can pick telekinesis or seeming or synaptic static. The sorcerer spell list provides more than enough choices that lack of choices is not really a limiter on their power.



Usually if you want to be a better sorcerer, isn't 3 extra levels of sorcerer better than 3 levels of warlock? I have trouble seeing how a sorcerer 8/warlock 3 is a better sorcerer than a sorcerer 11. The sorlock build is primarily good for twinning hexed eldritch blasts over an extended combat and you give up a ton of sorcerer power to do it, I think this creates a blaster class. I don't see how this optimizes a sorcerer build.

If you just want to be an arcane caster, wizard is a better option, isn't it?

[Gtdead]

Flight is also situational. How useful is flight in a dungeon?
Are you in outdoors in the daylight that much more frequently than you are in a dungeon or outdoors at night? There are entire campaigns that occur in darkness or have a significant nighttime component. I cannot think of many campaigns that occurs predominantly outdoors in daylight.
I also have a spell that allows me to create darkness (that only I can see through) in a 15 foot radius wherever I go, even in broad daylight. I do not have a spell that creates higher ceilings in a dungeon wherever I go.
If you use flight for ranged attacks and I am inside your range, then you are probably inside mine.
I think wings are great but somewhat over-rated especially at higher levels.


Animate objects does 10d8+20 on your bonus action for an average of 65 damage and you can do other non-damage things with it as well (i.e. there is non-combat utility in the spell) every round
Eldritch blast as a bonus action at 17th level does 4d10 plus 20 (agonizing blast) for an average of 42 points every round for 10 rounds
4d10 plus 44 for an average of 66 damage every round starting on the second bonus round;
4d10 plus 44 plus 4d6 for an average of 80 damage every round starting on the 3rd bonus round.

If I find myself in a situation where I want to do something other than twin eldritch blast the entire combat, then I think animate objects is a very useful spell to have. But, if you don't like that spell, then you can pick telekinesis or seeming or synaptic static. The sorcerer spell list provides more than enough choices that lack of choices is not really a limiter on their power.



Usually if you want to be a better sorcerer, isn't 3 extra levels of sorcerer better than 3 levels of warlock? I have trouble seeing how a sorcerer 8/warlock 3 is a better sorcerer than a sorcerer 11. The sorlock build is primarily good for twinning hexed eldritch blasts over an extended combat and you give up a ton of sorcerer power to do it, I think this creates a blaster class. I don't see how this optimizes a sorcerer build.

If you just want to be an arcane caster, wizard is a better option, isn't it?

Everytime I played high levels I didn't do dungeons. It was planes and big monsters/fiends etc. I actually rarely do dungeons and they are short.
A sorlock can cast a max range dimension door and still be in range for EB if you build for it. As I said, I like cheesy. Add verticality to dimension door and things are starting to get nasty.

The problem is that AO is a spell that creates a bunch of low health things with non magical damage and with a hard cap on hit chance. Everyone knows how much damage it does. Max damage doesn't mean optimal damage though. Plus you spend the whole T3 with 2 castings per day. So I don't care too much about it. I'll take it eventually, but by these levels, resistance to physical damage is common and fiends are great adversaries.

You probably mean quickened EBs. It's illegal by RAW to twin them. If you are allowed to do it, then your Sorc 3/Lock 3 makes a bit more sense. Twinning 3 times is serviceable but you can't quicken more than once per two turns.

And I consider the sorcerer mostly complete by lvl 7. There are some good spells at higher levels, but what you really need is wish. If I am to play T4, things may change on how I will build it (as I mentioned, flight is my preference but nothing is set in stone), but it's all relative to starting level, party composition etc. IMO a sorcerer 17/warlock 3 is strictly better than a sorcerer 20 in pretty much everything.

[MrStabby]

My take on the DS and the spells known is that is actually quite helpful.

As a sorcerer I want to be able to contribute to fights in multiple different ways against multiple different types of enemy.

With Divine Soul I can swap out damage and swap in healing/buffing without really losing versatility. Now to do damage I may want spells like fireball but I will also want tools for single targets and for fire immune enemies. Bless on the other hand works if we are fighting fiends, wizards, oozes or a red dragon. Willingness to give up (or downplay) one function that takes a lot of spells known to cover well can free up enough spells to do other things well.

This generally sees me leaning more towards the cleric list at lower levels - bless, command, prayer of healing. But also the great sorcerer options (web, hypnotic pattern) find their ways in.

I see a divine soul sorlock as being able to do all of these great support things, but also maintain pretty awesome damage too. The shadow sorcerer doesnt seem to add as much here but really offers a different playstyle.

[Damuri]

Everytime I played high levels I didn't do dungeons. It was planes and big monsters/fiends etc. I actually rarely do dungeons and they are short.
A sorlock can cast a max range dimension door and still be in range for EB if you build for it. As I said, I like cheesy. Add verticality to dimension door and things are starting to get nasty.

The problem is that AO is a spell that creates a bunch of low health things with non magical damage and with a hard cap on hit chance. Everyone knows how much damage it does. Max damage doesn't mean optimal damage though. Plus you spend the whole T3 with 2 castings per day. So I don't care too much about it. I'll take it eventually, but by these levels, resistance to physical damage is common and fiends are great adversaries.

You probably mean quickened EBs. It's illegal by RAW to twin them. If you are allowed to do it, then your Sorc 3/Lock 3 makes a bit more sense. Twinning 3 times is serviceable but you can't quicken more than once per two turns.

And I consider the sorcerer mostly complete by lvl 7. There are some good spells at higher levels, but what you really need is wish. If I am to play T4, things may change on how I will build it (as I mentioned, flight is my preference but nothing is set in stone), but it's all relative to starting level, party composition etc. IMO a sorcerer 17/warlock 3 is strictly better than a sorcerer 20 in pretty much everything.
Yes, I meant quickened.

Everything is situational. I am not trying to convince you or anyone that divine is bad or that shadow is absolutely better than divine. I am making the case that shadow doesn't suck. The OP is basically saying that compared to divine, shadow sucks and he doesn't understand why anyone would ever pick it over divine.

[Gtdead]

Yes, I meant quickened.

Everything is situational. I am not trying to convince you or anyone that divine is bad or that shadow is absolutely better than divine. I am making the case that shadow doesn't suck. The OP is basically saying that compared to divine, shadow sucks and he doesn't understand why anyone would ever pick it over divine.

I see. Personally I never claimed that shadow sucks. Quite the contrary. I just consider the flight races better for T4, up to lvl 16 shadow has a lot of merits. The hound is really good, being able to see in his own darkness frees an invocation (I consider devil's sight a tax).

[Damuri]

I see. Personally I never claimed that shadow sucks. Quite the contrary. I just consider the flight races better for T4, up to lvl 16 shadow has a lot of merits. The hound is really good, being able to see in his own darkness frees an invocation (I consider devil's sight a tax).

Agonizing blast is pretty universal sorlock tax.
I have played sorlock without devil's sight in order to get something else. Darkness is concentration and it directly conflicts with a lot of strategies.

I've taken voice of the chainmaster, misty visions, and mask of many faces over devil's sight in the past. But with shadow, I can have my cake and eat it too.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I see. Personally I never claimed that shadow sucks. Quite the contrary. I just consider the flight races better for T4, up to lvl 16 shadow has a lot of merits. The hound is really good, being able to see in his own darkness frees an invocation (I consider devil's sight a tax).

I can understand your position but in tier 4 getting flight is really easy, be it a demi plane full with glyph of warding with fly, a ring of spell sttoribg with find greater steed(paying for someone to cast it into the ring) or just some flying broom or carpet.
I forgot about potions of flight


I found the ability to walk through objects with Umbral Form, Shadow Walk and the save with Strength of the Grave to be more useful.

I am not saying that DS is bad, just that I find the flight to be less important then resistance and moving through objects.

I do like some DV on my non blaster characters

[Damuri]

I see. Personally I never claimed that shadow sucks. Quite the contrary. I just consider the flight races better for T4, up to lvl 16 shadow has a lot of merits. The hound is really good, being able to see in his own darkness frees an invocation (I consider devil's sight a tax).

Agonizing blast is pretty universal sorlock tax.
I have played sorlock without devil's sight in order to get something else