Bolas, Meteor Hammer, and Chain Weapons

[Vogie]

One of my players wants to use a sort of Bola- or Meteor hammer-style chained weapon.

Their idea is to wrap a chain around a target, so they can always target them with Heat Metal.

Has there been any type of published chain weapons (outside of the flail, obviously) or something you've seen/made that could fit the concept?

[nickl_2000]

The only official in the PHB I can think of is that it points out that a Nunchaku is a refluffed club (page 78 under Martial Arts)

[strangebloke]

A bola is just a net, honestly. Maybe give it longer range (10/15 instead of 5/10) but that's all I'd do there.

As to the 'meteor hammer,' I would homebrew something that's essentially a versatile flail and say that if he's grappling someone and holding his "meteor hammer" he can say that he's grappling them with the chain.

Note: if he doesn't drop the chain himself before doing this, heat metal will affect him too. And if he does drop the chain, he won't really be grappling the guy.

[Vogie]

A bola is just a net, honestly. Maybe give it longer range (10/15 instead of 5/10) but that's all I'd do there.

As to the 'meteor hammer,' I would homebrew something that's essentially a versatile flail and say that if he's grappling someone and holding his "meteor hammer" he can say that he's grappling them with the chain.

Note: if he doesn't drop the chain himself before doing this, heat metal will affect him too. And if he does drop the chain, he won't really be grappling the guy.

The latter IS the idea. They're not trying to grapple the target, in the traditional sense, but just wrap a chain around their limb to heat the following turn.

She already does it with thrown or stabbed daggers, but gave me the idea for a chain, and I was thinking something Kusari-Gama-esque.

I like the idea of a non-restraining net, with a slightly longer range. Maybe keep the Disadvantage if you use it to "grapple" the target (by aiming for the legs), but can be thrown just to wrap around the target for minor bludgeoning damage.

[Man_Over_Game]

I see this particular problem/topic come up about every month or so. My recommendation is just to add a new trait, called Grappling, for weapons like that.

Grappling: A weapon with this trait can be used to grapple a target instead of an attack from your Action, using the attack roll in place of the Athletics check. You cannot attack with the weapon while it grapples a creature in this way. If the creature ever attempts to attempt to break free of this grapple, they roll against your original attack roll.
If the weapon does not have the Thrown trait, you must be holding the weapon while the creature is within the weapon's reach to maintain the grapple.
If the Weapon does have the Thrown trait, it can be slashed off by dealing 1 Slashing or Fire damage to it against an AC of 10.


This enhances the whip, allows a thrown bola, and allows other interesting weapons (like the Meteor Hammer) using a streamlined set of rules.

[Misterwhisper]

I see this particular problem/topic come up about every month or so. My recommendation is just to add a new trait, called Grappling, for weapons like that.

Grappling: A weapon with this trait can be used to grapple a target instead of an attack from your Action, using the attack roll in place of the Athletics check. You cannot attack with the weapon while it grapples a creature in this way. If the creature ever attempts to attempt to break free of this grapple, they roll against your original attack roll.
If the weapon does not have the Thrown trait, you must be holding the weapon while the creature is within the weapon's reach to maintain the grapple.



This enhances the whip, allows a thrown bola, and allows other interesting weapons (like the Meteor Hammer) using a streamlined set of rules.

That would be broken.

Allowing people to use an attack roll to grapple instead of athletics would be too good for even a feat much less just a weapon trait.

That would just push the discrepancy between dex and str builds.

Then again they thought Double Scimitars were a good idea so who knows.

[Man_Over_Game]

That would be broken.

Allowing people to use an attack roll to grapple instead of athletics would be too good for even a feat much less just a weapon trait.

That would just push the discrepancy between dex and str builds.

Then again they thought Double Scimitars were a good idea so who knows.

A TWF would not be able to use their second weapon, effectively losing out on their feat, their fighting style, all to grapple with their weapon.

Creatures using Athletics to grapple can gain Expertise, or Rage and gain Advantage on their roll. Consider a mid level Ranger with a Whip vs. a Barbarian/Rogue grapple specialist:

Ranger with Grappling weapon: +4 proficiency, +4 bonus, total of +8 bonus. Average of 18.5.
Barbarian Rogue, Raging, Athletics: +4 Proficiency, +4 Expertise, +4 bonus, +3.33 from Advantage, +15 bonus. Average of 26.

It's much easier to get Advantage on a Strength check than it is to get Advantage on an Attack Roll.



I guess my question is, compared to what the OP is trying to do with something like a Meteor Hammer...what's the difference? If it looks like a grapple, and it acts like a grapple, what is it if it's not a grapple? Restrained is too strong, and there's nothing else that suits other than knocking a target Prone.

If Strength is weaker, then I think that should absolutely be fixed (increasing heavy armor AC by +1 would be a good start), but I don't think that should be hindering the entire system. We've all had at least one person ask if they can grapple with the whip, why not make that a possibility?

[stoutstien]

I like the idea of bolas but I ended up making them adventuring gear instead of a weapon.

Meteor hammer could just be a blunt whip

[Nhorianscum]

Tavern brawler is the exotic weapon mastery of 5e.

Pick up an (improvised weapon) chain and BA grapple on hit. Bonus points if you get your DM to rule the giant mass of metal is "heavy" for power attack.

If you want to rule this working on thrown attacks go for it. Otherwise they can carry "not nets"

[ImproperJustice]

Also, being grappled is largely a minor inconvenience.

Fought in a battle yesterday where a PC fighter was grappler by an enemy, and they just continued to trade blows back and forth as if nothing was terribly different.

A lot of folks seem to think that Grappled = restrained and that is not the case.

[Man_Over_Game]

Also, being grappled is largely a minor inconvenience.

Fought in a battle yesterday where a PC fighter was grappler by an enemy, and they just continued to trade blows back and forth as if nothing was terribly different.

A lot of folks seem to think that Grappled = restrained and that is not the case.

Grappling is only ever relevant if movement is relevant. It's not going to mean anything to grapple an Ogre who want to hit the biggest thing in front of him, but it WILL mean a lot to grapple an archer or mage.

[strangebloke]

Okay, if you don't want to grapple, then this is easy.

Add a weapon property: entangling.

When you hit a target with an entangling weapon, you can choose to entangle the target with the weapon itself. If you choose to do so, the object sticks to the target until the target spends an action freeing itself.

While the target is entangled, you can use your connection to the target to initiate a grapple. If you do not grapple the target and the target moves away, you will loose your hold on the weapon.

Entangling is a positive quality, so add a negative to compensate. The meteor hammer is a bludgeoning longsword that only deals 1d6/1d8 instead of 1d8/1d10.

Though it's probably more fun to base it off of the halberd and make it a heavy 1d8 weapon with reach.

[N810]

^ wouldn't it be more of a light finesse weapon than a heavy weapon . :/

[strangebloke]

^ wouldn't it be more of a light finesse weapon than a heavy weapon . :/
Its a giant metal chain. Does that scream 'finesse' to you?

Maybe it could be a monk weapon, but for all us non kungfu folks...

[Yuroch Kern]

Grappling is only ever relevant if movement is relevant. It's not going to mean anything to grapple an Ogre who want to hit the biggest thing in front of him, but it WILL mean a lot to grapple an archer or mage.

Well, don't forget that the grappler can move the grapplee at half speed however they choose. Lots of getting thrown off high ledges that way. At least, if Strength allows.

[NaughtyTiger]

That would be broken.

Allowing people to use an attack roll to grapple instead of athletics would be too good for even a feat much less just a weapon trait.



str-based weapon attack vs athletics check.

athletics check can get 2x proficiency bonus. there is a reason grapple rogue exists.

[MaxWilson]

One of my players wants to use a sort of Bola- or Meteor hammer-style chained weapon.

Their idea is to wrap a chain around a target, so they can always target them with Heat Metal.

Has there been any type of published chain weapons (outside of the flail, obviously) or something you've seen/made that could fit the concept?

If I wanted to model a bola, I would make it a thrown weapon which lets you make one grappling check at range, per Dungeon Grappling rules (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06X16TYCZ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1). Everything else about it is straightforward.

-Max

[N810]

Its a giant metal chain. Does that scream 'finesse' to you?

Maybe it could be a monk weapon, but for all us non kungfu folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_hammer

The heaviest version would be about 6 pounds.
I saw a lighter version that was about 1/2 a pound.


Neither version used what I would call a heavy chain.

it was either rope or a light or medium chain.

[strangebloke]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_hammer

The heaviest version would be about 6 pounds.
I saw a lighter version that was about 1/2 a pound.


Neither version used what I would call a heavy chain.

it was either rope or a light or medium chain.

A great sword doesn't weigh much more than six pounds either. But if this chain is long enough to hit something 5-10 feet away, it's going to be very long, and most of the time that's more important than weight.

[N810]

A great sword doesn't weigh much more than six pounds either. But if this chain is long enough to hit something 5-10 feet away, it's going to be very long, and most of the time that's more important than weight.

From what I can tell the longer one is actually the lighter version With only one weight.

[Man_Over_Game]

Heavy doesn't really have anything to do with the weight. The only mechanical impact of it is:

Small characters cannot use it
It has a special benefit from Great Weapon Master


Now, so far, every heavy weapon has weighed around 5-6 pounds, and is two handed, but that may not be a requirement of the Heavy trait and it could be coincidental.

[Misterwhisper]

Heavy doesn't really have anything to do with the weight. The only mechanical impact of it is:

Small characters cannot use it
It has a special benefit from Great Weapon Master


Now, so far, every heavy weapon has weighed around 5-6 pounds, and is two handed, but that may not be a requirement of the Heavy trait and it could be coincidental.

A great club is 10 LBS, two handed, but not heavy.

It was solely to balance combat by making sure that it could not be used with certain abilities/feats.

[strangebloke]

Ah yeah, probably shouldn't interact with great weapon master.