What would the OotS look like in 5e?

[Ortho]

I've seen a fair few threads dealing with the Order of the Stick in 4e but I don't think I've ever seen one that converts them to 5e.
So let's get this ball rolling:


Roy's a Battlemaster Fighter, no doubt. I'd say he'd be a regular Human due to his all-around decent stats, and would take the Great Weapon Master feat at some point.

Haley's a regular Human, and a Thief Rogue. In particular, the Second Story Work and Use Magical Device class features fit really well with what we've seen her do.

Elan's a pure Bard, due to prestige classes not existing in 5e. He could really belong to any of the colleges, but I'd say College of Lore is the most thematic for him. Probably a variant Human with the Inspiring Leader feat, which he hasn't yet figured out how to use.

Belkar's a Halfling (of the Stout subrace, if only for more height jokes) and a Beastmaster Ranger. He also has the Dual Wielder feat. Note that this is not an optimal build by any measure.

Durkon's got the easiest conversion: Life Cleric without a doubt. As for his race: Mountain Dwarf, because he lives in the mountains.

Vaarsuvius's a High Elf, of course. That extra cantrip and Intelligence bonus nicely compliments his earlier "Ultimate Arcane Power" mindset. Also a School of Evocation Wizard through and through.


And that about sums up my take on the 5e Order of the Stick. How would you convert them to 5e?

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy's a Battlemaster Fighter, no doubt. I'd say he'd be a regular Human due to his all-around decent stats, and would take the Great Weapon Master feat at some point.
Haley's a regular Human, and a Thief Rogue. In particular, the Second Story Work and Use Magical Device class features fit really well with what we've seen her do.

Elan's a pure Bard, due to prestige classes not existing in 5e. He could really belong to any of the colleges, but I'd say College of Lore is the most thematic for him. Probably a variant Human with the Inspiring Leader feat, which he hasn't yet figured out how to use.

Belkar's a Halfling (of the Stout subrace, if only for more height jokes) and a Beastmaster Ranger. He also has the Dual Wielder feat. Note that this is not an optimal build by any measure.

Durkon's got the easiest conversion: Life Cleric without a doubt. As for his race: Mountain Dwarf, because he lives in the mountains.

Vaarsuvius's a High Elf, of course. That extra cantrip and Intelligence bonus nicely compliments his earlier "Ultimate Arcane Power" mindset. Also a School of Evocation Wizard through and through.
The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic. I think you covered it pretty well. Elan as Lore Bard I agree with, but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

[Vulsutyr]

What's wrong with Durkon being Tempest? He couldn't use any lightning or thunder spells w/o it, and he would still be able to use all the healing spells.


The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic. I think you covered it pretty well. Elan as Lore Bard I agree with, but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

Yes, I like the Lucky feat idea. Schools of Magic is a tough one, I thought about that reading the first post. I can't think of any mechanism for restricting spells know by wizards. It would have to be homebrew IMO. I think WOTC intentionally didn't bring that back.

[Ortho]

The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic. I think you covered it pretty well. Elan as Lore Bard I agree with, but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

The reason I went with Inspiring Leader is because of Elan's habit of making speeches. I thought it would be funny for his abysmal speeches to actually have a mechanical benefit.


What's wrong with Durkon being Tempest? He couldn't use any lightning or thunder spells w/o it, and he would still be able to use all the healing spells.

That...makes a lot more sense actually. I like this better.


Schools of Magic is a tough one, I thought about that reading the first post. I can't think of any mechanism for restricting spells know by wizards.

To my knowledge 5e doesn't actually provide any mechanisms for restricting spells. Though having never played 3.5e myself, I don't know how big of a deal barred schools are.

[Reboot]

To my knowledge 5e doesn't actually provide any mechanisms for restricting spells. Though having never played 3.5e myself, I don't know how big of a deal barred schools are.

Well, the main reason Rich had V ban Conjuration is so they couldn't Teleport the Order around (I don't think the apparent bar on Necromancy has ever been hugely plot-relevant, outside of it being the notional reason for Haerta being a necromancer - and Familicide could have been a thing without barred schools).

So, that's the main objective - figure out how or why 5e V can't teleport.

[Jannoire]

What about other people from the Stick verse? I wanna play a paladin inspired by O-Chul sometime soon.

Currently I'm going for Human Paladin, great weapon master, with soldier background.
I'm unclear on the oath, though...
Neither of the ones in the PHB seem to fit, while Oathbreaker is clearly wrong. I would say Oath of Battle, but that's third party content...

[Kish]

O-Chul is very much about being dedicated to Good, and secondarily Law. In 3.xed, that makes him the ideal paladin. If it makes him not fit any of the oaths in 5ed, my advice would be to make that character a fighter instead, so that they can be completely dedicated to Good and secondarily Law without running into any Oath-caused funkiness.

After all, as How the Paladin Got his Scar illustrates, O-Chul has been the paladin much longer than he's actually had levels in the paladin class.

[hamishspence]

Oath of Devotion sounds pretty O-Chul to me:


Tenets of Devotion

Honesty. Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.

Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.

Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.

Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.

Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.

[bc56]

I disagree on Elan and Belkar. Elan should be a swords bard, since it aligns better with Dashing Swordsman. Belkar is multiclass Ranger/Barbarian, so although beastmaster makes sense for him, he should also have levels in Barbarian, probably Berserker.

As for V and teleport, the obvious answer for "why doesn't V know Teleport?" is "They choose not to learn it/Rich chooses for them not to learn it." There's nothing forcing a wizard to take Teleport, and the party members don't have optimal builds in the existing comic anyway. It is, in my mind, a non-issue.

For O-Chul, Oath of Devotion is probably the closest from a mechanical and lore standpoint, since it's all about upholding the will of the gods and lawful and good behavior.

[D.One]

So, that's the main objective - figure out how or why 5e V can't teleport.

I don't know a way of barring V from having teleport if they were all born in 5th edition... however, we've seem that edition updates occur within the history, so we can have V start his/her career as an evoker, barred from Conjuration, somewhen prior to 3.x. Then, years later, the world rewrites itself into 5th Ed., but by then V never learned Teleport, and since that V haven't had the opportunity to get a Teleport scroll or spellbook with teleport to learn from it.

[Connington]

Oath of Devotion sounds pretty O-Chul to me:

Devotion is the most obvious pick, but How The Paladin Got His Scar suggests that both his backstory and his methods fit the Oath of Redemption better. The lengths to which O-Chul goes to avoid unnecessary combat throughout the story are 100% Oath of Redemption

[KorvinStarmast]

Devotion is the most obvious pick, but How The Paladin Got His Scar suggests that both his backstory and his methods fit the Oath of Redemption better. The lengths to which O-Chul goes to avoid unnecessary combat throughout the story are 100% Oath of Redemption I guess you missed the beginning of HTPGHS. That was a standard battle with killing and such. First scene. (Granted, that's while he's still a Fighter/Warrior ... indeed most of the book is him as a Fighter / Warrior, not a paladin)

Oath of Devotion is a pretty solid fit.

[xroads]

As for V and teleport, the obvious answer for "why doesn't V know Teleport?" is "They choose not to learn it/Rich chooses for them not to learn it." There's nothing forcing a wizard to take Teleport, and the party members don't have optimal builds in the existing comic anyway. It is, in my mind, a non-issue.

This makes sense. Could be an RP thing. Perhaps V, for all his intelligence, just can't wrap his head around teleportation magic.

But if memory serves, the 4e version of V didn't have any barred schools. So perhaps it's a moot point altogether.

[Lacuna Caster]

As for V and teleport, the obvious answer for "why doesn't V know Teleport?" is "They choose not to learn it/Rich chooses for them not to learn it." There's nothing forcing a wizard to take Teleport, and the party members don't have optimal builds in the existing comic anyway. It is, in my mind, a non-issue.
Or, you could just let V learn Teleport.

[xroads]

I think Elan would be a valor bard. A valor bard allows him to be handy with a sword and the "valor" concept seems a good fit for Elan.

As for their backgrounds...


Belkar - Criminal?*
Durkon - Acolyte
Elan - Entertainer
Haley - Criminal
Roy - Sage?**
Vaarsuvius - Sage
* I haven't read Belkar's short story yet, so I'm just taking a guess. Seemed like a safe bet though, all things considered.

** I'm not sure about Roy. Much of his background includes a formal education. But Sage doesn't seem like a good fit. Cloistered Scholar might be a better fit, but I don't have that book on hand.

Edit: After thinking about it, isn't there a background that allows the player to inherit a powerful heirloom? That might be a better fit for Roy.

[Zejety]

After thinking about it, isn't there a background that allows the player to inherit a powerful heirloom? That might be a better fit for Roy.

Yup, it's literally called Inheritor (found in SCAG).
It suggests an inheritance which's secrets you slowly unlock ove rthe course of your career. Fits to a T!

[Morgana]

I feel like Elan would multiclass into swashbuckler

[Connington]

I guess you missed the beginning of HTPGHS. That was a standard battle with killing and such. First scene. (Granted, that's while he's still a Fighter/Warrior ... indeed most of the book is him as a Fighter / Warrior, not a paladin)

Oath of Devotion is a pretty solid fit.

I did indeed read the whole of the story, and after reading it again, the precise scene that you reference actually reinforces my point. But thank you for giving me an excuse to re-read a story about a great Order of Redemption role model! :smallsmile:

The Oath of Redemption isn't an Oath of Nonviolence, it's an Oath of Violence as a Last Resort.

In the very first scene, pre-Paladin O-Chul is a military captain whose company has been tasked to defense a bridge, and commands a defensive action against raiding hobgoblins. Even if O-Chul was a paladin at this point, he'd be fulfilling the tenets of his oath. He's defending civilians from a clear aggressor. Would it be better for a Redeemer to undertake a dangerous mission to discover why the hobgoblins are attacking, and single-handedly broker a fair and lasting peace? Sure, but that's basically impossible for a lowly captain, so O-Chul... does exactly that. Man, this guy is an awesome Redemption Paladin.

Note that in the battle at the bridge, O-Chul breaks off the engagement to tend to his wounded soldiers as soon as he forces the hobgoblins to retreat - a sound plan both tactically and ethically. When a wounded hobgoblin hits him with an arrow, he takes the attacker's bow away and alternates scolding him for foolishness, pleading for the killing to stop, and trying to understand why the hobgoblins attacked in the first place. O-Chul doesn't even draw his sword until the hobgoblin makes another attempt to kill him. At which point it's clear-cut self defense because the enemy has literally said that he'll stop at nothing to kill Azurites and O-Chul specifically. Then O-Chul goes to find Zhou Bo, and specifically refrains from sentencing her to whipping and imprisonment for desertion because he believes that she can be redeemed.

For the rest of the story, where O-Chul is operating more like the leader of an independent adventuring party than a junior military officer, so let's recap what happens:


When faced with an Ettin trying to clobber Zhou Bo, O-Chul initially counter-attacks. But when the Right Head claims not to be aggressive, he lets the Left Head get in two free attacks while he attempts to reason with the left - past the point where he's clearly exasperated - until a party-member goes Leroy Jenkins and the Right Head reveals itself to be just as murderous.
Continuously tries to use Persuasion on the ambushing Hobgoblin party even as they attempt to kill all of the humans - and still manages to capture 2/6ths of them (note that O-Chul only killed the leader, the other three died because Kapoor is quite proudly NOT a candidate for the Oath of Redemption). Note that O-Chul doesn't even threaten the two prisoners into cooperating - they intimidate themselves.
When Pangtok and Tingtox try to drown the party and escape, O-Chul risks his life to save Pangtok from the current and non-lethally subdues Tingtox. Hinjo explicitly points out that O-Chul doesn't tactically need the two hobgoblins to be alive, but he saved them because he values everyone's life. After working out his anger over Kapoor's apparent death, he APOLOGIZES for tying the two hobgoblins up, gives them permission to leave, and convinces them that he just wants to stop the fighting.
Hinjo pays off the first patrol of guards and then O-Chul disarms the leader of the second and manages to negotiate an audience with the Supreme Leader. He leaving his sword behind as a show of good faith. No lethal damage inflicted.
Forced to flee the stronghold, O-Chul chides Kapoor for killing a few hobgoblin mooks on their way out, even after hostilities have clearly broken out. She actually listens, and knocks out the next guard instead of killing him.
Encounter with the Sapphire Guard. Quote: "I do not give a damn about the ethical ramifications of revenge! I just want to save lives!"
And sure enough, the distracted Paladins don't actually kill any more hobgoblins on screen during this exchange (until the end at least), although the skirmish continues. O-Chul uses his HP pool as a resource to buy time for Kapoor to cleverly disrupt the fighting.
In a moment of crisis, O-Chul draws on his own redemption story to illustrate why even the life of an "evil" person is worth saving, and concludes that if there is no way to stop the fighting, he'll defend the hobgoblins against the paladins. He even considers whether he's morally obligated to fight and die against a celestial bound to cause that doesn't seem sufficiently Good, which is a great Huck Finn moment.
O-Chul finally succeeds while literally refusing to draw his sword in a duel against a more skilled warrior, by convincing two opposing sides to cease fighting.
While it isn't clear how many hobgoblins he kills in the battle for the bridge, by my count O-Chul kills three people onscreen (a hobgoblin soldier, the ettin, and a hobgoblin warchief), on screen. The last being on page 17 of 95.



Honestly, O-Chul demonstrates a commitment to nonviolent solutions throughout his origin story that go WAY beyond what I'd expect from a Redemption Paladin player at the table. As a secondary character he doesn't get as many chances to demonstrate these qualities in the main story, but he's still a critical figure in the MitD's apparent redemption arc. The Oath of Devotion isn't a bad fir for him in the way that the Oath of Vengeance or the Ancients would be, but all of his actions in his own story are so clearly that of a Redeemer.

[Wizard_Lizard]

When Durkon turns into a vampire he would change to a trickery domain.
Miko is an oathbreaker paladin
V might take at least one levl of warock when he makes a pact with the demon people
Thog is probably barbarian fighter multiclass

[Quartz]

The trick to the 5e conversion is IMO how to bar/ban V's forbidden schools of magic.

Just hand-wave it. He just doesn't know the spells; the why is irrelevant.


Elan as Lore Bard I agree with

Valor bard fits better with Dashing Swordsman. You could represent the Dashing Swordsman Prestige Class as a feat that allows you to add your Cha bonus to your attack with finesse weapons a number of times per long rest equal to your Proficiency Bonus.


but I disagree with Inspiring Leader, and think that if any feat were his it would be Lucky. That would account for the narrative power working for him.

Why can't he have both?

I agree with Roy being a Battlemaster with GWM. Could he have the Charger Feat?

Haley is a plain Thief rogue, though an early comic indicates she may also have the Assassinate ability.

I'd put Belkar as a Hunter Ranger, not Beastmaster, and per the battle outside Azure City, he has Whirlwind attack. Mr Scruffy isn't an Animal Companion in the PHB sense.

BTW I predict that Belkar isn't going to die; rather, Mr Scruffy is, on Belkar's birthday, which is why Belkar will never celebrate his birthday again.

[Jannoire]

BTW I predict that Belkar isn't going to die; rather, Mr Scruffy is, on Belkar's birthday, which is why Belkar will never celebrate his birthday again.

And in mourning, he'll hold his breath and move to another plane of existence?

[Peelee]

I did indeed read the whole of the story, and after reading it again, the precise scene that you reference actually reinforces my point. But thank you for giving me an excuse to re-read a story about a great Order of Redemption role model! :smallsmile:

The Oath of Redemption isn't an Oath of Nonviolence, it's an Oath of Violence as a Last Resort.

In the very first scene, pre-Paladin O-Chul is a military captain whose company has been tasked to defense a bridge, and commands a defensive action against raiding hobgoblins. Even if O-Chul was a paladin at this point, he'd be fulfilling the tenets of his oath. He's defending civilians from a clear aggressor. Would it be better for a Redeemer to undertake a dangerous mission to discover why the hobgoblins are attacking, and single-handedly broker a fair and lasting peace? Sure, but that's basically impossible for a lowly captain, so O-Chul... does exactly that. Man, this guy is an awesome Redemption Paladin.

Note that in the battle at the bridge, O-Chul breaks off the engagement to tend to his wounded soldiers as soon as he forces the hobgoblins to retreat - a sound plan both tactically and ethically. When a wounded hobgoblin hits him with an arrow, he takes the attacker's bow away and alternates scolding him for foolishness, pleading for the killing to stop, and trying to understand why the hobgoblins attacked in the first place. O-Chul doesn't even draw his sword until the hobgoblin makes another attempt to kill him. At which point it's clear-cut self defense because the enemy has literally said that he'll stop at nothing to kill Azurites and O-Chul specifically. Then O-Chul goes to find Zhou Bo, and specifically refrains from sentencing her to whipping and imprisonment for desertion because he believes that she can be redeemed.

For the rest of the story, where O-Chul is operating more like the leader of an independent adventuring party than a junior military officer, so let's recap what happens:


When faced with an Ettin trying to clobber Zhou Bo, O-Chul initially counter-attacks. But when the Right Head claims not to be aggressive, he lets the Left Head get in two free attacks while he attempts to reason with the left - past the point where he's clearly exasperated - until a party-member goes Leroy Jenkins and the Right Head reveals itself to be just as murderous.
Continuously tries to use Persuasion on the ambushing Hobgoblin party even as they attempt to kill all of the humans - and still manages to capture 2/6ths of them (note that O-Chul only killed the leader, the other three died because Kapoor is quite proudly NOT a candidate for the Oath of Redemption). Note that O-Chul doesn't even threaten the two prisoners into cooperating - they intimidate themselves.
When Pangtok and Tingtox try to drown the party and escape, O-Chul risks his life to save Pangtok from the current and non-lethally subdues Tingtox. Hinjo explicitly points out that O-Chul doesn't tactically need the two hobgoblins to be alive, but he saved them because he values everyone's life. After working out his anger over Kapoor's apparent death, he APOLOGIZES for tying the two hobgoblins up, gives them permission to leave, and convinces them that he just wants to stop the fighting.
Hinjo pays off the first patrol of guards and then O-Chul disarms the leader of the second and manages to negotiate an audience with the Supreme Leader. He leaving his sword behind as a show of good faith. No lethal damage inflicted.
Forced to flee the stronghold, O-Chul chides Kapoor for killing a few hobgoblin mooks on their way out, even after hostilities have clearly broken out. She actually listens, and knocks out the next guard instead of killing him.
Encounter with the Sapphire Guard. Quote: "I do not give a damn about the ethical ramifications of revenge! I just want to save lives!"
And sure enough, the distracted Paladins don't actually kill any more hobgoblins on screen during this exchange (until the end at least), although the skirmish continues. O-Chul uses his HP pool as a resource to buy time for Kapoor to cleverly disrupt the fighting.
In a moment of crisis, O-Chul draws on his own redemption story to illustrate why even the life of an "evil" person is worth saving, and concludes that if there is no way to stop the fighting, he'll defend the hobgoblins against the paladins. He even considers whether he's morally obligated to fight and die against a celestial bound to cause that doesn't seem sufficiently Good, which is a great Huck Finn moment.
O-Chul finally succeeds while literally refusing to draw his sword in a duel against a more skilled warrior, by convincing two opposing sides to cease fighting.
While it isn't clear how many hobgoblins he kills in the battle for the bridge, by my count O-Chul kills three people onscreen (a hobgoblin soldier, the ettin, and a hobgoblin warchief), on screen. The last being on page 17 of 95.



Honestly, O-Chul demonstrates a commitment to nonviolent solutions throughout his origin story that go WAY beyond what I'd expect from a Redemption Paladin player at the table. As a secondary character he doesn't get as many chances to demonstrate these qualities in the main story, but he's still a critical figure in the MitD's apparent redemption arc. The Oath of Devotion isn't a bad fit for him in the way that the Oath of Vengeance or the Ancients would be, but all of his actions in his own story are so clearly that of a Redeemer.
Welp, I'm sold.

And in mourning, he'll hold his breath and move to another plane of existence?
And swear a vow of poverty. Don't forget funding his IRA!

[KorvinStarmast]

When Durkon turns into a vampire he would change to a trickery domain. Monsters don't necessarily have a domain; 5e doesn't handle a vampire PC all that well, it takes some fiddling with the NPC to make it work. But I think you have the right concept there.

Miko is an oathbreaker paladin Not seeing that. When she falls she isn't a paladin of any kind anymore. She's either a Devotion (probably not) Crown (from SCAG) or Conquest (Given her attitude, I'd probably go with that). Her MC into Monk can be folded in reasonably well. And to a certain extent, her approach and attitude toward the world in general almost screams "Vengeance Paladin" to me since she's very much "I'll fix this with a few swings of my sword" in a lot of cases.

V might take at least one levl of warock when he makes a pact with the demon people
Not seeing that. It's a temporary expedient that backfires.

Thog is probably barbarian fighter multiclass Yeah, or a Barbarian with a few feats.

[2D8HP]

I feel like Elan would multiclass into swashbuckler


My mind immediately kept to Swashbuckler as a substitute for Dashing Swordsman as well

As for O-Chul, the Conquest and Vengeance Oaths are right out, I could see him as Devotion or Redemption (and if I squint hard Ancients) but given how he came to be a Paladin I think Oath of the Crown fits:


The Oath of the Crown is sworn to the ideals of civilization, be it the spirit of a nation, fealty to a sovereign of service to a deity of law and rulership. The paladins who swear this oath dedicate themselves to serving society and, in particular, the just laws that hold society together. These paladins are the watchful guardians on the walls, standing against the chaotic tides of barbarism that threatened to tear down all that civilization has built, and are commonly known as guardians, exemplars, or sentinels. Often, paladins who swear this oath are members of an order of knighthood in service to a nation or a sovereign, and undergo their oath as part of their admission to the order’s ranks.

Tenets of the Crown

The tenets of the Oath of the Crown are often set by the sovereign to which their oath is sworn, but generally emphasize the following tenets.
Law. The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.
Loyalty. Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.
Courage. You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don’t act, then who will?
Responsibility. You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.

[Peelee]

My mind immediately kept to Swashbuckler as a substitute for Dashing Swordsman as well

As for O-Chul, the Conquest and Vengeance Oaths are right out, I could see him as Devotion or Redemption (and if I squint hard Ancients) but given how he came to be a Paladin I think Oath of the Crown fits:


The Oath of the Crown is sworn to the ideals of civilization, be it the spirit of a nation, fealty to a sovereign of service to a deity of law and rulership. The paladins who swear this oath dedicate themselves to serving society and, in particular, the just laws that hold society together. These paladins are the watchful guardians on the walls, standing against the chaotic tides of barbarism that threatened to tear down all that civilization has built, and are commonly known as guardians, exemplars, or sentinels. Often, paladins who swear this oath are members of an order of knighthood in service to a nation or a sovereign, and undergo their oath as part of their admission to the order’s ranks.

Tenets of the Crown

The tenets of the Oath of the Crown are often set by the sovereign to which their oath is sworn, but generally emphasize the following tenets.
Law. The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.
Loyalty. Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.
Courage. You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don’t act, then who will?
Responsibility. You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.



Don't forget, though, O-Chul wanted the Sapphire Guard disbanded. He was NOT a fan of them or their place on Azurite civilization, and when that was absolutely refused, he was willing to join them to try and change them from within (again, NOT a fan of them, so this is a significant sacrifice--he's giving up his previous life to try to make them better, with no guarantee it will work.

[Kish]

Why can't he have both?
Because Elan is not by any stretch of the imagination a leader, and has in fact actively resisted that role or anything associated with it at every turn. (To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

[Vulsutyr]

I think Elan was a lore bard who MCed into swashbuckler. This keeps the part of the story where he trained with Julio.

If anything, Greg would have been a Death Cleric if he switched domains. Not trickery tho. He didn’t worship Loki.

I don’t know if anyone has said a subclass for Roy, but I think he is 100% a battlemaster. Thog’s fighter levels are probably champion if he got to lvl 3.

[Peelee]

Because Elan is not by any stretch of the imagination a leader, and has in fact actively resisted that role or anything associated with it at every turn. (To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

My only disagreement - I'd change "human" for "white." and ditch "other," I guess.

[Connington]

When Durkon turns into a vampire he would change to a trickery domain.

Durkon* was an NPC villain worshiping the Goddess of Death. This seems like the definition of what the Death Domain in the DMG was designed for.


Don't forget, though, O-Chul wanted the Sapphire Guard disbanded. He was NOT a fan of them or their place on Azurite civilization, and when that was absolutely refused, he was willing to join them to try and change them from within (again, NOT a fan of them, so this is a significant sacrifice--he's giving up his previous life to try to make them better, with no guarantee it will work.

Agreed. I've personally argued for Redemption over Devotion for O-Chul, but it's not open and shut. Crown just doesn't fit him anymore than Ancients or Vengeance.

Before her fall, I'd say Miko is a toss-up between Crown and Vengeance, maybe leaning Crown. She's not NOT suitable for Devotion, but tenets like "Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm" certainly don't come naturally to her. Honestly, the Sapphire Guard that we see in Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar has A LOT of paladins sworn to the oaths of Vengeance and Crown. Hopefully Hinjo has been able to enact some reforms.

It's natural to peg Hinjo as Crown because, you know, he's wearing one, but I actually think Devotion suits what we've seen of him. He's very much "Law AND Good" as opposed to "Law IS Good".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because Elan is not by any stretch of the imagination a leader, and has in fact actively resisted that role or anything associated with it at every turn. (To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

I don't quite remember that distress, but would I be wrong in assuming a certain amount of overlap in the constituency of that group and those that expected Tarquin to be the greatest general of all time, and were thus similarly distressed and/or in denial about his capabilities?

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Durkon* was an NPC villain worshiping the Goddess of Death. This seems like the definition of what the Death Domain in the DMG was designed for.



Agreed. I've personally argued for Redemption over Devotion for O-Chul, but it's not open and shut. Crown just doesn't fit him anymore than Ancients or Vengeance.

Before her fall, I'd say Miko is a toss-up between Crown and Vengeance, maybe leaning Crown. She's not NOT suitable for Devotion, but tenets like "Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm" certainly don't come naturally to her. Honestly, the Sapphire Guard that we see in Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar has A LOT of paladins sworn to the oaths of Vengeance and Crown. Hopefully Hinjo has been able to enact some reforms.

It's natural to peg Hinjo as Crown because, you know, he's wearing one, but I actually think Devotion suits what we've seen of him. He's very much "Law AND Good" as opposed to "Law IS Good".

Crown would make sense for prequel paladins. Ya know, being nobles, every last one, and all.

[Kish]

I don't quite remember that distress, but would I be wrong in assuming a certain amount of overlap in the constituency of that group and those that expected Tarquin to be the greatest general of all time, and were thus similarly distressed and/or in denial about his capabilities?

Grey Wolf
I can't actually say because the people who stood out the most as saying "Elan will be the leader now that Roy's dead" stopped posting entirely or almost entirely before 2011.

[2D8HP]

...Agreed. I've personally argued for Redemption over Devotion for O-Chul, but it's not open and shut. Crown just doesn't fit him anymore than Ancients or Vengeance....


I certainly agree that Vengeance (and also Conquest) are right out for O-Chul, but while he doesn't fit the image if a P-a-a-a-r-t-a-y!!! Oath of Ancients Paladin, I don't see him as actually breaking the Tenets of Ancients either, in many ways he's an exemplar of multiple Oaths (just not douche-bag Conquest and jerk Vengeance Paladins.

Speaking of that Oath, dig:


Tenets of the Ancients
The tenets of the Oath o f the Ancients have been preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.

Shelter the Light.
Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.

Preserve Your Own Light.
Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in
your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.

Be the Light.
Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth
in all your deeds.

Doesn't that sound like Elan?

[kiapet]

I've actually thought for a while that our 4 main Paladins would each fit with a different Paladin archetype:

Miko- Oath of Vengeance. Punishing evildoers is her complete MO

Hinjo- Pretty straightforward Oath of Devotion

O-Chul- Listen, the Oath of Redemption could have been written with him in mind. His backstory, the way he relates to the hobgoblins in the prequel, his actions with MitD, all of it screams "Paladin of Redemption"

Lien- This might be the most of a stretch, but I think she fits the Oath of the Ancients, what with her strong connection to the ocean and her cause of "rooting out evil from the dark crevasses in which it hides" and all that. Of course she could also be Oath of Devotion but that's less interesting imo

[Connington]

O-Chul doesn't seem like he'd be opposed to any of the tenets of the Oath of the Ancients, but he's too personally reserved to "delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art", and doesn't typically show the "light of joy" and all of that. He certainly hasn't shown himself to be artistically inclined, and his personality is stoic, businesslike, and occasionally resigned to grimness. It's just not the path that suits him, even if he'd gladly fight alongside such a paladin.

I don't think any of the Sapphire Guard is really OoA (That Oath is just really far from 3.5 paladins), but Lien probably comes the closest. She's lighthearted and humorous, always looks on the bright side (her city is gone and the Sapphire Guard are almost all dead, but her family all made it out alive!), and she's instinctively drawn to the beauty of the natural world underneath the sea.

Elan on the other hand, has the personality to be a great Paladin of the Ancients in some other lifetime. He might not be ST 13 if we're looking at this purely mechanically, but a lot of his character development is taking him in that more responsible and truly heroic direction, and he specifically loves grand stories.

[xroads]

Wouldn't all of the Sapphire Paladins be considered Oath of Devotion? They took the same oath, to protect the Sapphire Gate. Their execution of that oath varied from person to person, but the their underlying oath and tenets were the same.

Miko's execution of her tenets did probably lean heavily into vengeance. But then again, she did fall. She leaned too far from her tenants (and right into her liege with a sharp sword),

[Connington]

Wouldn't all of the Sapphire Paladins be considered Oath of Devotion? They took the same oath, to protect the Sapphire Gate. Their execution of that oath varied from person to person, but the their underlying oath and tenets were the same.

The literal oath of the Sapphire Guard doesn't have to be the same thing as the Sacred Oath of a Paladin (ie subclass) in 5e. The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide highlights three named Orders in the Forgotten Realms: One contains Crown and Devotion paladins "equally represented", in the second paladins "most often follow the Oath of Devotion, although a few zealots are followers of the Oath of Vengeance" and the third just says "many paladins of the order follow the Oath of the Crown". The Sapphire Guard already contains clerics in addition to its paladins, so presuming multiple valid Sacred Oaths isn't a stretch.

The Sapphire Guard of the prequels is shown to have drifted away from the "protect the innocent" side of paladinhood, in a way that suggests Oaths of Vengeance and Crown. And if the Oath of Conquest had been an option available to Gin-Jun, who knows if he would have taken it?

[2D8HP]

It occurs to me that the 5e optional rules allowing multi-classing preclude Belkar from picking up levels in Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html) and Ranger unless he has a Wisdom of at least 13, which I don't think he has (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

[Morgana]

I´d honestly say every paladin would be oath of devotion. It´s just that the big thing for each oath, even if there´s nothing mechanical behind it anymore, are the tenants, and in 3.5 every paladin except if you took a special alternate class followed the saem oath. While each paladin is wildly different, they each abide to the same rules and tenants, and the subclass that tries to replicate your run of the mill paladin is the oath of devotion

[Grey Watcher]

I've spitballed this before in my head with the following results:

ROY: Human Fighter (Battlemaster) X/Warlock 3 (Hexblade, Pact of the Blade). Not 100% on non-cantrip spell selection, because nothing really fits, but it's a rules-legal way to get him tossing and returning his sword with magic. Green Flame Blade and True Strike for Cantrips. Fiendish Vigor emulates the healing and Improved Pact Weapon so he doesn't have to fuss around with component pouches and focuses.

HALEY: Human Rogue (Thief), straight up, no frills

ELAN: Human Bard (College of Swords), really, what other college makes for stylish swordfighting quips?

DURKON: Mountain Dwarf Cleric (Tempest)

BELKAR: Lightfoot Halfling (for Stealth) Ranger (Hunter) X/Barbarian 2

(EDIT: There's a case to be made for swapping out Ranger for Rogue (Scout), though, which would keep him a non-caster. But I prefer to have him keep his "proper" class.)

VAARSUVIUS: Elf (you can make an argument for High for stat synergy, or Wood given that V's parents are established as Rangers in one of the books) Wizard (Evocation). No way I know of to emulate the barred schools, but it's still a simple enough build

O-CHUL: Human Fighter (Champion) / Paladin (Oath of Redemption). His origin story as a Paladin is rooted specifically in going to absurd lengths to avoid unnecessary violence.

HINJO: Human Paladin (Oath of the Crown). His whole thing is trying to balance being a good Paladin with being a good ruler.

MIKO: Monk (Kensei) up to 6 / Paladin of Vengeance. I mean, she's all about hunting down the evil-doers.

LIEN: Paladin of the Ancients (her origin story involves a fascination with the natural world, so this seems apt).

[Jannoire]

(To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

Or maybe, because of off the three that sailed with Hinjo, he was the only one fitting that Role. Durkon is too passive to be a leader, V was occupied with spell research...

[Kish]

Or maybe, because of off the three that sailed with Hinjo, he was the only one fitting that Role. Durkon is too passive to be a leader, V was occupied with spell research...
It's interesting that your argument for why people would expect Elan to be the leader when Roy died includes the post-Roy-death information that what Vaarsuvius actually did was fixate on spell research, but leaves out the post-Roy-death information that what Elan actually did was attach himself to Hinjo as a leader. Which strip would you be assuming these comments were posted during that would include knowledge of the former but not the latter?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Elan could even have a bit of oath of devotion paladin in him...
So he can add charisma to his attacks.

[Jannoire]

It's interesting that your argument for why people would expect Elan to be the leader when Roy died includes the post-Roy-death information that what Vaarsuvius actually did was fixate on spell research, but leaves out the post-Roy-death information that what Elan actually did was attach himself to Hinjo as a leader. Which strip would you be assuming these comments were posted during that would include knowledge of the former but not the latter?

My comments were mostly based on the facts, that both Durkon and V always deferred to Haley or Roy when it came to leadership, while Elan at least assumed leadership over thog, when they escaped from Cliffport.

[Quartz]

ROY: Human Fighter (Battlemaster) X/Warlock 3 (Hexblade, Pact of the Blade). Not 100% on non-cantrip spell selection, because nothing really fits, but it's a rules-legal way to get him tossing and returning his sword with magic. Green Flame Blade and True Strike for Cantrips. Fiendish Vigor emulates the healing and Improved Pact Weapon so he doesn't have to fuss around with component pouches and focuses.


Why bother? The magic is in the weapon, not Roy. He's a plain Battlemaster Fighter with a sword that's a Weapon of Legacy. It's demonstrated three spell powers - Greater Restoration, Healing many HP, and Negative Plane Protection - and one weapon power, Returning. The sword may also be an Undead Bane weapon.

[Kish]

I think "Roy's sword would do this for anyone else" would be a pretty big change.

[Quartz]

I think "Roy's sword would do this for anyone else" would be a pretty big change.

No one has said that but IMHO Roy's sword would likely do the same for another Greenhilt fighter.

[georgie_leech]

No one has said that but IMHO Roy's sword would likely do the same for another Greenhilt fighter.

Except for the Elf bit that fits a Moonblade pretty well.

[Sindeloke]

Re: banned lists, the chief motive behind banning teleportation is specifically as a plot contrivance to force the Order to suffer travel concerns - getting places Too Late, not being able to un-split the party easily, enduring mutiny on the Mechane, allowing Greg time to turn guards and summon worms - rather than employing efficient scry-and-die tactics.

Teleportation in 5e is nerfed all to hell and back, to the point that you'd still have to put up with most of that even if you were outright conjuror subclassed. You just can't reliably jump point to point over large distances this edition. There isn't any ability to mechanically ban V from conjuration, sure, but there's also no need. That one's a non-issue.

[xroads]

ROY: Human Fighter (Battlemaster) X/Warlock 3 (Hexblade, Pact of the Blade). Not 100% on non-cantrip spell selection, because nothing really fits, but it's a rules-legal way to get him tossing and returning his sword with magic. Green Flame Blade and True Strike for Cantrips. Fiendish Vigor emulates the healing and Improved Pact Weapon so he doesn't have to fuss around with component pouches and focuses.

I don't think the warlock levels are necessary. All signs currently point to the magic being a property of the weapon. I don't think he'd get the same effect from any other weapon.

[Grey Watcher]

Why bother? The magic is in the weapon, not Roy. He's a plain Battlemaster Fighter with a sword that's a Weapon of Legacy. It's demonstrated three spell powers - Greater Restoration, Healing many HP, and Negative Plane Protection - and one weapon power, Returning. The sword may also be an Undead Bane weapon.


I don't think the warlock levels are necessary. All signs currently point to the magic being a property of the weapon. I don't think he'd get the same effect from any other weapon.

My understanding is that Legacy Weapon Wielder was a Prestige Class Roy was taking. Since, barring literally a single Unearthed Arcana, PrC's aren't a thing in 5E, A Blade2 Warlock seemed the next best thing.

Still the point does stand that these powers work ONLY with the Greenhilt Family Blade, while a Hexblade can (for some reason) just swap his bonded weapon out willy-nilly. Basically, neither solution is perfect, since the magic seems to arise out of the interaction between Roy and his sword, while modeling it with Warlock levels or a magic item each only involve one of those.

Basically, I went with the Hexblade solution because it's a little bit more interesting to me. Buy the other route is valid, too.

[Peelee]

My understanding is that Legacy Weapon Wielder was a Prestige Class Roy was taking. Since, barring literally a single Unearthed Arcana, PrC's aren't a thing in 5E, A Blade2 Warlock seemed the next best thing.

Blade3 Warlock is exponentially better though.

[Grey Watcher]

Blade3 Warlock is exponentially better though.

Your comment has been logged.

[Peelee]

Your comment has been logged.

Naturally.

[Reboot]

My understanding is that Legacy Weapon Wielder was a Prestige Class Roy was taking.
It is not.

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure Roy's still a single-classed fighter.

[Morgana]

His powers first manifested during a fight, while normally as we saw with Elan, taking a prestige class is a conscious choice someone is making.

[Grey Watcher]

Naturally.

You live, eulern.


I'm pretty sure Roy's still a single-classed fighter.


His powers first manifested during a fight, while normally as we saw with Elan, taking a prestige class is a conscious choice someone is making.

Eh, I guess I just misinterpreted. Roy training to do the Spellsplinter Maneuver in the afterlife kinda blurred the line between actual, narrative-appropriate training, and just the game rules bit about such training getting retconned in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).

Of course, we also have precedent for characters not being aware of (or perhaps simply forgetting about) their various abilities even as they still benefit from them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html).

EDIT: Also, Roy has been known to arbitrarily decide he suddenly wants internal narrative consistency for no real reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html).

Like I said because I (apparently mistakenly) thought a Prestige Class was involved, I thought erring on the side of attaching the powers to Roy rather than the sword was the way to go. Plus, if you put all those powers into the weapon itself, you end up in a weird situation where it's suddenly more powerful and complex than the freaking Eye of Vecna (and yeah, this runs into the fundamentally different premises on which each edition is designed). It's also gets you pretty close to the intended suite of powers with a minimum of homebrew. (The Greenhilt Blade would have to be a built-from-the-ground-up homebrew magic item.)

Like I said, convincing argument to be made either way, but neither is, to my eyes, truly satisfactory. :shrug:

[PopeLinus1]

Elan is a college of swords IMHO. Let me just say, I love this subclass, it is absolutely brilliant, with the right specialization, it can be untouchable.

[Morty]

D&D has never really covered characters learning and gaining power or skill without levelling up, except for wizards scribing new spells - since they're wizards and therefore the best, duh. Roy unlocking the power of his family's heirloom sword is therefore not governed by any rules and would be equally ungoverned in 5E. But in the comic itself, it's been explained pretty clearly as him accessing them first through emotion and then through training.

[Quartz]

D&D has never really covered characters learning and gaining power or skill without levelling up, except for wizards scribing new spells - since they're wizards and therefore the best, duh. Roy unlocking the power of his family's heirloom sword is therefore not governed by any rules

I disagree: there's a simple, already extant, rule, Attunement with pre-requisites. Roy's sword may only be Attuned to by a member of the Greenhilt family who has made contact with the spirit of an ancestor. The sword has powers which Roy can trigger, like Returning, and certain powers that are triggered automatically, like Greater Restoration.

[Majin]

I agree with Roy's sword being a magic item. His whole shtick is being a single-classed fighter, so multiclassing to a spellcasting class doesn't seem right, and the power does come from his sword.

Hexblade might fit Elan on the other hand, since you can use charisma to attack. Valor, Sword and Swashbuckler aren't bad fits either though. But if it was Valor, it would mean he just hadn't realized he can be competent with a sword until Julio told him, which would be kind of silly. He would have been over level 3 by the time he met Julio.

Though since to my understanding, Dashing swordsman isn't a real class anyway, so I think it'd be acceptable to have it as a new class in 5e as well (it could be homebrew or unearthed arcana, since it's apparently is obscure in-universe).

[Kish]

Though since to my understanding, Dashing swordsman isn't a real class anyway, so I think it'd be acceptable to have it as a new class in 5e as well (it could be homebrew or unearthed arcana, since it's apparently is obscure in-universe).
Sure, but to my knowledge, 5ed doesn't have any form of "these exist to be multiclassed into and can't be taken at first level" classes.

[Majin]

Sure, but to my knowledge, 5ed doesn't have any form of "these exist to be multiclassed into and can't be taken at first level" classes.

There was this (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf) unearthed arcana, but considering that was like 4 years ago, and there hasn't been anything similar, I'd guess it's not going to be a thing.

I guess some classes are dipped more than others (like hexblade), but that's not really the same thing.

[Grey Watcher]

I agree with Roy's sword being a magic item. His whole shtick is being a single-classed fighter, so multiclassing to a spellcasting class doesn't seem right, and the power does come from his sword.

Hexblade might fit Elan on the other hand, since you can use charisma to attack. Valor, Sword and Swashbuckler aren't bad fits either though. But if it was Valor, it would mean he just hadn't realized he can be competent with a sword until Julio told him, which would be kind of silly. He would have been over level 3 by the time he met Julio.

Though since to my understanding, Dashing swordsman isn't a real class anyway, so I think it'd be acceptable to have it as a new class in 5e as well (it could be homebrew or unearthed arcana, since it's apparently is obscure in-universe).

Maybe in the alternate universe 5e version of OOTS, Scoundrel offered to retrain him and trade in his old archetype for a new one that was released after his character was first created? :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Maybe in the alternate universe 5e version of OOTS, Scoundrel offered to retrain him and trade in his old archetype for a new one that was released after his character was first created? :smalltongue:

Oooh, I like that one.

[Morgana]

I'd alao like to point out that at least at first the greenhilt sword wasn't magical, but rather gained magical properties after the star metal and later because of Roy's bond and family history with it

[Mechalobster]

Let's add more characters to this party! Like the linear guild!

Nale: Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer multiclass, of course. I'm imagining he only took a level or 2 of fighter, so no subclass. If he took enough rogue levels, I imagine Nale would take the Arcane Trickster subclass. And his sorcerous origin is probably Dragon or Shadow, if I had to guess.

Sabine: There is no Succubus race, so she'd be a succubus NPC with some Rogue class features bolted on to the chassis.

Thog: Berserker Barbarian, of course. Probably with a few fighter levels. If he took enough of them, he'd probably end up being either a Champion or UA Brute.

[KorvinStarmast]

D&D has never really covered characters learning and gaining power or skill without levelling up, except for wizards scribing new spells -
AD&D 1e did. (Granted, we aren't doing that one, we are doing 5e).

[Wizard_Lizard]

Zzd'tri would be a wizard drow
soon would be a paladin of devotion human
dorukan would be a wizard school of illusion human
Grirad would be a sorcerer draconic bloodline human
redcloak would be a a cleric death domain goblin
Eugene woukd br a school of illusion wizard human
hilgya would be cleric trickery domain dwarf

[Jannoire]

dorukan would be a wizard school of illusion human

Nothing I recall from the earlier strips screams "Illusion" when I think about Dorukan...

[Wizard_Lizard]

Nothing I recall from the earlier strips screams "Illusion" when I think about Dorukan...

shoot.
I mean abjuration.

[AstralFire]

I don't quite remember that distress, but would I be wrong in assuming a certain amount of overlap in the constituency of that group and those that expected Tarquin to be the greatest general of all time, and were thus similarly distressed and/or in denial about his capabilities?

Grey Wolf

I still think Tarquin is a pretty great character and fictional general (evil, terrible guy who needs to have the end coming) and no, the only role I ever expected Elan to assume was that of party healer with Durkon dead. Which he did to a degree, though not as much as I expected.

I would disagree with Elan as College of Swords only because I don't think that fits his overall pattern of growth -- he wouldn't have to sacrifice a level in Dashing Swordsman to become better at casting spells. he'd do both naturally.

So I'd make him College of Lore that multiclasses in Swashbuckler Rogue for a few levels and then stops and goes back to Bard. Cha to Attack is tricky, but I'd ad hoc it by picking up one of the sword-play cantrips from Warlock via feat.