Wizard lvl up debate

[Timur18]

I’ve got a lvl7 divination wizard that I’m trying to play as more control. As I approach lvl8 I’m debating which of the following 3 options I should take.

1 - take the +2 and max out my INT to 20.

2 - take the warcaster feat for the ADV on concentration saves, and other 2 perks that aren’t nearly as important.

3 - take the resilient feat for a +1 to CON (currently a 14) and proficiency on CON saves.

When I get to higher levels, I’ll end up taking all 3 eventually but can’t decide which order I should go. My gut says warcaster, then resilient, then max INT, but I’d appreciate any input.

It’s relevant to point out that my DM is a fan of turning up the difficulty to make the sessions more challenging. If I weren’t a diviner, I might max INT first but I can use portent to force a fail on a save if I really have to.

[Man_Over_Game]

I’ve got a lvl7 divination wizard that I’m trying to play as more control. As I approach lvl8 I’m debating which of the following 3 options I should take.

1 - take the +2 and max out my INT to 20.

2 - take the warcaster feat for the ADV on concentration saves, and other 2 perks that aren’t nearly as important.

3 - take the resilient feat for a +1 to CON (currently a 14) and proficiency on CON saves.

When I get to higher levels, I’ll end up taking all 3 eventually but can’t decide which order I should go. My gut says warcaster, then resilient, then max INT, but I’d appreciate any input.

It’s relevant to point out that my DM is a fan of turning up the difficulty to make the sessions more challenging. If I weren’t a diviner, I might max INT first but I can use portent to force a fail on a save if I really have to.

Advantage is about a +3.33 average gain, so I'd take it now and then grab Resilient afterwards.

As for when to grab the Int, it really depends on what kind of Control you do. If you don't do a lot with saving throws (conjuring Walls or scouting) then its not that important.

[NaughtyTiger]

max that INT

extra spell prepared
+1 DC, offensive control lives by the DC


i didn't follow my own advice though. i chose alert at 8... getting my spells in place first was the most important.

[Sigreid]

I'd say get the int. Not going to do well as a control wizard if your spells dont stick.

[MadBear]

I'll be a bit contrary and say go with warcaster. The +1DC is very nice don't get me wrong, but it'll only be relevant 1 out of every 20 rolls. If you're using a lot of concentration spells, then you're gonna really wanna make sure you don't lose that concentration. Having advantage on that roll is unbelievably nice, and you can get the +2 int later.

[Corran]

With resilient and potentially good portent rerolls, I would probably skip warcaster entirely. Unless it is your experience that your wizard gets targeted a lot. As for now? Probably +2 to int. Positioning, portent rerolls and defensive spells (like mage armor, shield and mirror image) will be enough to help you keep concentration on your most important spells. I think the risk to delay resilient is worth it. But you should be a better judge of this as you are the one playing in this game.

[MadBear]

Unless it is your experience that your wizard gets targeted a lot

Corran brings up an excellent point. In your game, how often does the GM go after the caster? I know I'd take warcaster because my DM see's the other characters as speed bumps to stopping the caster, who they see as the real problem (they're not necessarily wrong :P ). If your DM doesn't hit the backline as often, warcaster would be a waste.

[Timur18]

My DM does tend to target casters if what we’re fighting would make that distinction. I’ll pay close attention in the next few sessions to be sure.

I totally forgot that maxing the INT would give me another spell prepared.

I’ll be paying close attention in the next few sessions and keep a tally of when I’m targeted specifically.

[SVamp]

I’d still max int and use mirror image to mitigate concentration issues. And there’s shield or absorb elements or misty step for when it’s neeeded.

The only other factor is, which concentration spell(s) do you use that you don’t want to lose no matter what, and how often do you use them?

Basically int will be a factor in nearly every offensive spell you cast, concentration might not be.

[Chronos]

Quoth Man_Over_Game:

Advantage is about a +3.33 average gain,...
Why do people keep saying this? The effect we're looking for is either "successful save" or "failed save". Advantage can't increase that effect by 3.33, because it's not a numeric effect to begin with. The only number you can meaningfully assign to advantage is the increase in probability of a success. If you have a DC where you'd succeed about half the time, advantage shifts your probability from 50% to 75%. On the other hand, the saves we're looking at here specifically are concentration saves, and those are most often DC 10, where the bonus from proficiency (and presumably increased Constitution) is probably going to be more significant.

Timur18, what's your current Int and Con?

[malachi]

Why do people keep saying this? The effect we're looking for is either "successful save" or "failed save". Advantage can't increase that effect by 3.33, because it's not a numeric effect to begin with. The only number you can meaningfully assign to advantage is the increase in probability of a success. If you have a DC where you'd succeed about half the time, advantage shifts your probability from 50% to 75%. On the other hand, the saves we're looking at here specifically are concentration saves, and those are most often DC 10, where the bonus from proficiency (and presumably increased Constitution) is probably going to be more significant.

Timur18, what's your current Int and Con?

He said he has CON 14, so at lvl 8, he's looking at Advantage with +2 or no advantage with +5 (or +6 at lvl 9, +7 at lvl 13).



DC

WC
Res(CON) Lvl 8

Res(CON) Lvl 9

Res(CON) Lvl 13


10
88%
80%
85%
90%


12
80%
70%

75%
80%


14
70%
60%
65%
70%


16
58%
50%
55%
60%


18
44%
40%
45%
50%


20
28%
30%
35%
40%



According to my math, Warcaster is better for Concentration saves (up to DC 20) at lvl 8, and is mostly slightly better than Res(Con) at lvl 9, but is worse by lvl 13.

[Timur18]

Timur18, what's your current Int and Con?

Chronos, INT is at 18 and CON is 14 currently.

I try to focus my control spells on things that don’t require saves like haste and wall of fire. My general preference is to avoid things that would result in a wasted spell slot if targets make the save.

[sithlordnergal]

As a person who has played casters from levels 1 to 20, you don't need a 20 till level 16. 18 will work perfectly fine until then thanks to your proficiency bonus. Its kinda strange...they made you able to get by with a 14 in your casting stat at tier 1, and then everything gets a massive boost to where you need an 18 in tier 2. But then you can coast on that 18 all the way to the start of tier 4.

As such, I would go for War Caster

[Man_Over_Game]

Why do people keep saying this? The effect we're looking for is either "successful save" or "failed save". Advantage can't increase that effect by 3.33, because it's not a numeric effect to begin with. The only number you can meaningfully assign to advantage is the increase in probability of a success. If you have a DC where you'd succeed about half the time, advantage shifts your probability from 50% to 75%. On the other hand, the saves we're looking at here specifically are concentration saves, and those are most often DC 10, where the bonus from proficiency (and presumably increased Constitution) is probably going to be more significant.

Timur18, what's your current Int and Con?

The 3.33 gain is actually what happens when you compare the results of every d20 result vs. d20 with Advantage. If you compare every single percentage for every result, you end up with Advantage being an average of 16.625% higher than a standard d20 result. 16% on a d20 translates to about 3.33.


So yes, while it's a generalization, it'll increase your score by an average of 3.33. Or it'll increase your chances of succeeding by 16%. Whatever floats your boat.

[Dirclaw]

The 3.33 gain is actually what happens when you compare the results of every d20 result vs. d20 with Advantage. If you compare every single percentage for every result, you end up with Advantage being an average of 16.625% higher than a standard d20 result. 16% on a d20 translates to about 3.33.


So yes, while it's a generalization, it'll increase your score by an average of 3.33. Or it'll increase your chances of succeeding by 16%. Whatever floats your boat.

It's actually a really fun bit of math. The exact advantage of advantage is that your average goes up by ((x^2)-1)/6x, with x being the size of the die. With a d20, this turns into 399/120, which is 3.335.

I'm not trying to correct, your numbers are great, just giving a little bit of deeper look at the math if anyone cares. It's something I am quite excited about, although not many seem to share my joy...

[Wildarm]

I’ve got a lvl7 divination wizard that I’m trying to play as more control. As I approach lvl8 I’m debating which of the following 3 options I should take.

1 - take the +2 and max out my INT to 20.

2 - take the warcaster feat for the ADV on concentration saves, and other 2 perks that aren’t nearly as important.

3 - take the resilient feat for a +1 to CON (currently a 14) and proficiency on CON saves.

When I get to higher levels, I’ll end up taking all 3 eventually but can’t decide which order I should go. My gut says warcaster, then resilient, then max INT, but I’d appreciate any input.

It’s relevant to point out that my DM is a fan of turning up the difficulty to make the sessions more challenging. If I weren’t a diviner, I might max INT first but I can use portent to force a fail on a save if I really have to.

My personal preference would be to max INT as a control wizard. That said, if you are failing concentration spells a lot, pickup Res(Con). Warcaster advantage has a bit of an edge at level 8 but it will eventually be outclassed. You likely don't need the reaction spell casting as a controller. In addition, you get that save boost to ALL your con saves with resilient. That includes a lot of really horrible effects from monsters.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's actually a really fun bit of math. The exact advantage of advantage is that your average goes up by ((x^2)-1)/6x, with x being the size of the die. With a d20, this turns into 399/120, which is 3.335.

I'm not trying to correct, your numbers are great, just giving a little bit of deeper look at the math if anyone cares. It's something I am quite excited about, although not many seem to share my joy...

Real life math is very much underappreciated. Your analysis is a lot more sophisticated than mine, nice work!. It's...weirdly comforting that there are multiple paths to get to the same answer. Like this feeling that the very foundation of the universe is both simple and consistent.

[Galadhrim]

What level do you plan to play through?

You will get a lot of recommendations that res:con outclasses warcaster based on late game, but many games don't get past level 12 much less give you ample time to cash on on your benefit. I find warcaster much more fun for a majority of your play time (at least in my games). Add to that, advantage on a save fits really well with a diviner if you are actually role playing that aspect of your character.

As a diviner, you can generally make your spell stick if you really need it to based on your portent roles. So plus two int is really nice, but again I would prefer warcaster. (+2 int would be my number 2 for sure).

This advice based on Wrenn Timbers, the forest gnome diviner played from levels 1 to 13 prior to slaying an ancient blue dragon and saving the world from the giant apocolypse.

[Chronos]

But the point is, you don't care, per se, about how much you increase your roll. You care about whether you increase it enough to turn a failure into a success, and that depends on the DC. If you turn a roll of 2 into a roll of 9, you don't care that your roll increased by 7, because it's still going to fail. On the other hand, if you turn a roll of 9 into a roll of 10, even though that's only a +1, then that could be a significant boost, if it was a DC 10 roll (which many concentration saves are). The average increase might be relevant if all DCs were equally likely (I haven't actually double-checked the math on that), but that doesn't matter, because not all DCs are equally likely.

malachi has the right sort of analysis. He disagrees with my initial conclusion, because my initial conclusion assumed (incorrectly) that the OP's Con was an odd number (which is when people usually take Resilient, at least in discussions of optimization). If your Con is already even, then that makes Resilient somewhat less appealing.

[Dalebert]

Skip warcaster altogether if you're not melee. It's mostly wasted. I usually plan for resilient con on a caster by starting with odd con and take it pretty early. It scales as you level and is plenty when combined with strategies to avoid being attacked.

[Keravath]

It's actually a really fun bit of math. The exact advantage of advantage is that your average goes up by ((x^2)-1)/6x, with x being the size of the die. With a d20, this turns into 399/120, which is 3.335.

I'm not trying to correct, your numbers are great, just giving a little bit of deeper look at the math if anyone cares. It's something I am quite excited about, although not many seem to share my joy...

The average value doesn't actually get at the effect of advantage.

The exact percentage of the effect of advantage depends on the number that you need to roll. \

This is a reasonable reference:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?654979-The-math-of-Advantage-and-Disadvantage

If you need to roll an 11 to make a saving throw or roll a 11 to hit a target, advantage is equivalent to a +5 on the die roll (25% increase in success probability over a straight roll). If you need to roll an 18 for a to hit or save then advantage is more like a +2 - a 12.75% increase over the chance of making it without advantage. If you only succeed on a die roll of 20, then advantage is less than the effect of a +1. On the other hand, if you only succeed on a 20 or fail on a 1 then advantage isn't really expected to change things much since you either pass or fail already most of the time.

For typical target numbers in the 7 to 15 range, advantage is the equivalent of +4 or +5.

The average benefit of advantage isn't that meaningful for comparison since the target numbers (the number you usually need to roll to hit or save are typically in the 7 to 15 range). [This isn't DC or AC ... this is the number you need to roll with your modifiers and the target AC/DC already factored in]

[Reynaert]

i didn't follow my own advice though. i chose alert at 8... getting my spells in place first was the most important.

I'll second that. That +5 to initiative will come into play a significant percentage of battles, and dropping a control spell before anyone gets to go is a very large advantage. If your DM likes to ambush your group it just gets better.

[Dirclaw]

The average value doesn't actually get at the effect of advantage.

The exact percentage of the effect of advantage depends on the number that you need to roll. \

This is a reasonable reference:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?654979-The-math-of-Advantage-and-Disadvantage

If you need to roll an 11 to make a saving throw or roll a 11 to hit a target, advantage is equivalent to a +5 on the die roll (25% increase in success probability over a straight roll). If you need to roll an 18 for a to hit or save then advantage is more like a +2 - a 12.75% increase over the chance of making it without advantage. If you only succeed on a die roll of 20, then advantage is less than the effect of a +1. On the other hand, if you only succeed on a 20 or fail on a 1 then advantage isn't really expected to change things much since you either pass or fail already most of the time.

For typical target numbers in the 7 to 15 range, advantage is the equivalent of +4 or +5.

The average benefit of advantage isn't that meaningful for comparison since the target numbers (the number you usually need to roll to hit or save are typically in the 7 to 15 range). [This isn't DC or AC ... this is the number you need to roll with your modifiers and the target AC/DC already factored in]


Oh, I'm aware that that is what you need to use, assuming that you know what you need to roll (which I agree with you, is usually in the mid-range). I wan't so much chiming in to say he should take resilient con over war-caster, just to go a little deeper into the math.

[Klorox]

As a person who has played casters from levels 1 to 20, you don't need a 20 till level 16. 18 will work perfectly fine until then thanks to your proficiency bonus. Its kinda strange...they made you able to get by with a 14 in your casting stat at tier 1, and then everything gets a massive boost to where you need an 18 in tier 2. But then you can coast on that 18 all the way to the start of tier 4.

As such, I would go for War Caster

What makes you say that about the stats (14 is okay in tier 1, you need an 18 in tier 2, ect.)?

I mean, the higher the casting stat, the more likely the enemies will fail saves and the more spells you can memorize.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just want to know how you came to that conclusion.